This is when Katrina comes in handy...ranjithnath wrote:^^not entirely correct.their crotale 4000 system is being replaced by 10 batteries of spada2000.also they have a dozen or so HQ2 batteries. these are mostly situated on their western front and vital nuclear installations.i will try to post a link of possible location and ranges of current paki air defence system.
Ranjit, I will reply to your post in the MMRCA thread as I do not want to derail this thread. Please do visit there.ranjithnath wrote:^^^^maybe OT but kat's AASM requires her to stay on air and guide it until it hits the target.this scenario may not be applicable for TSP which will scramble their assets once we get too close.harpy can do a decent job on the radars close to the border but for deep penetration(eg attacking sargodha and kamra AFB's) ,integration of a decent ARM to katrina is important which will give her a huge advantage in terms of standoff and fire and forget capability.
05-May-2011
Defence Weekly
Robert Hewson Air-Launched Weapons Editor - London
Janes can confirm that Pakistan has taken delivery of the Brazilian MAR-1 anti-radiation missile and is integrating the weapon on its PAC JF-17 Thunder multirole combat aircraft as well as upgraded Dassault Mirage III and V ROSE fighters.
The MAR-1 is an air-launched defence suppression weapon developed as an independent national programme by Mectron in co-operation with the Brazilian Air Force (FAB).
In 2008 a MAR-1 order from Pakistan for 100 missiles valued at EUR85 million (USD126 million) was announced by the Brazilian government, which provided export credit support for the deal. Reports from Pakistan suggested that deliveries started in 2009.
Mectron would not comment on the MAR-1 programme except to say that "we have an export client and we have delivered missiles to that client". However, during the April 2011 Latin American Aerospace and Defence (LAAD) show in Rio de Janeiro, learnt that an active integration effort is now underway for both the ROSE Mirage and JF-17 in Pakistan Air Force (PAF) service.
This confirms statements made during the 2010 Farnborough Airshow by the PAF's JF-17 Programme Manager, Air Vice Marshall Mohammad Arif, who identified the MAR-1 as a future JF-17 weapon.
The JF-17 is a co-development project between Pakistan and China. It is now in full production at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra, where about 30 aircraft have been assembled. In April 2011 the PAF stood up its second JF-17 unit (No 26 Squadron) and a third unit (No.4 Squadron) will follow later this year.
Integration of the MAR-1 with the JF-17 shows that Pakistan has a well-structured programme to expand the capability of the aircraft beyond its Chinese roots. The MAR-1 is the second non-Chinese weapon that the JF-17 is known to be adopting after the Hafr runway penetration bomb. Pakistan has also explored the possibility of adding French avionics (including radar) and weapons (including the Mica air-to-air missile) to the aircraft, but PAF JF-17 programme officials told that those options have been shelved in favour of "less politically complicated projects".
Once operational, the MAR-1 will be the PAF's only modern anti-radiation weapon and a significant boost to its combat capabilities. The missile has several operational modes, but is typically used in a pre-programmed attack against known emitting targets in a lock-on-after-launch engagement. Mectron has developed a dedicated mission planning system for such operations.
The MAR-1 is likely to operate, at least initially, with a 'missile-as-sensor' function, meaning that the weapon's own wideband radio frequency seeker is the primary sensor for emitter location and targeting. The JF-17's Chinese developers certainly have the expertise to produce a more capable emitter location system in the future. The MAR-1 can also use supplementary targeting information from the JF-17's radar warning receivers.
Pakistan has a growing number of electronic intelligence (ELINT) systems with which it can build an electronic order of battle of hostile emitters to support MAR-1 targeting. This includes the highly capable HES-21 ELINT system carried by the PAF's recently delivered Erieye airborne early warning and control aircraft.
The MAR-1 is fully MIL-STD-1553 and -1760 databus compatible. For non databus-equipped aircraft a standalone integration using a dedicated fire-control unit and display can be fitted in the cockpit. That is the approach adopted for Brazil's non-upgraded Embraer AMX (A-1) attack aircraft. The MAR-1 has yet to enter formal FAB service, but understands that qualification flight testing in Brazil will conclude by the end of 2011.
Hmm. InterestingKartik wrote: The MAR-1 is fully MIL-STD-1553 and -1760 databus compatible. For non databus-equipped aircraft a standalone integration using a dedicated fire-control unit and display can be fitted in the cockpit. That is the approach adopted for Brazil's non-upgraded Embraer AMX (A-1) attack aircraft. The MAR-1 has yet to enter formal FAB service, but understands that qualification flight testing in Brazil will conclude by the end of 2011.
In December 2008 the Brazilian government approved the sale of 100 MAR-1 missiles to the Pakistan Air Force in a contract worth $108 million.[1][2][4] These missiles are being integrated with the new JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft that the Pakistan Air Force has inducted.
So much for the sovergnity of Pakistan and so much for "cooperation" ! Seems like this was no surprise to them. Everytime the Pakistanis were accused, they asked US for "actionable" and "concrete" proof !!Pakistani authorities ignored several warnings from the US over the past three years that it would take unilateral action if it gathered intelligence on Osama bin Laden's presence in the country, according to a media report today.
The Americans had warned Pakistan "time and again" that if the US had intelligence concerning bin Laden, "they would act on it with or without Pakistani cooperation", The News daily quoted informed sources as saying.
<snip>
This official angrily asserted that US had warned Pakistan time and again that it would undertake unilateral action against Laden if the US thought Pakistan would not act on its own.
The Institute for Gulf Affairs had predicted that OBL was inside close to the capital of Pakistan long years ago.Luxtor wrote:T
I always suspected OBL was being harboured by the ISI/PA/PG but right outside of Islamabad in a heavily militarized town, in a relatively nice house surrounded by and within few yards of puki army establishments? That my friends takes ba**s or studpidity or arrogance ... or all of the above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Ll_Anx7cI
Al-Ahmed also cited the ties many in Al-Qaeda have to allies in the Pakistani security services. He concluded by remarking that it seemed most likely that Bin Laden would be found in an upscale residence somewhere near Islamabad.
Al-Ahmed's analysis was on target and proven right after the killing of Osama Bin Laden this week in a mansion outside Islamabad.
Al-Ahmed's expertise and knowledge on Bin Laden was evident in November of 2001 when he deciphered the video tape captured by American forces in Kandahar, Afghanistan in a Ben Laden hideout. The Pentagon and the State Department both failed to accurately translate the tape but it was by Al-Ahmed. The story received massive national and international attention.
Front runners among those tipped to take over from Pasha is Major General Isfandiyar Ali Pataudi, first cousin of cricketing legend, former India skipper Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi, and an uncle to film stars, Saif and Soha.
Isfandiyar's father, Major General Nawabzada Mohammad Ali Pataudi, was the younger brother of Mansur Ali Khan's father Iftikhar Ali Khan. Major General Nawabzada Mohammad preferred to opt for the Pakistan army at the time of partition, while his elder brother stayed back to pursue a diplomatic career.
For Pakistan, it's a Catch-22 situation. Under pressure from the United States, it may have to chop and change the ISI set-up. But if it tinkers too much with the elite agency, Islamabad risks a more horrifying repurcussion. If the Pakistan administration is found to be making these sweeping changes at the behest of the US, the members of the ISI themselves could order attacks within their own country; A cousin of former cricketer Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi, he is considered to be a liberal face of the ISI and is likely to step in to keep the heat low on the outfit. For the Pakistan government, the road ahead is a tough one. On one hand it will have to show the world, especially the US, that it is acting on some rogue elements in the ISI and on the other will need to prevent a backlash from its own premier security agency.
Cant help but laugh at this. If there was a backlash, that means that the entire agency is rogue. Not specific rogue elements within a otherwise benign setup.On one hand it will have to show the world, especially the US, that it is acting on some rogue elements in the ISI and on the other will need to prevent a backlash from its own premier security agency.
Kailash, I'm sure you have heard of the saying "Pakistan is not a country with an army but an army with a country". Looking at it from this perspective, it will all make sense to you. I don't believe that pukistan ever had a civilian government that had any power. From the very start when Jinnah did his back stabbing and selfish deeds to help bring pukistan into existance, the fledgeling puki army quickly took control from the outset; because it was so easy in the sense that the army had all the guns and the puki politicians and the puki masses did not. It is as simple as that. When the rule of law, the consititution, and the honor, dignity and well being of your people and oneself does not matter to an armed force then they do what the puki army has been doing; namely to allow the installation of a "civilian" gov't to help lubricate the international relationships, especially with the democracies such as the U.S. U.K. and other western democratic countries who prefer dealing with a democracy than a dictatorship although when push comes to shove, i.e. when they have a need, they don't have any reservations in aiding and abetting dictatorships with arms, economic aid and political cover. Any and all civilian gov't in pukistan always existed with a concurrence of the army. So civil gov't can not do anything to make any changes to the army or ISI because it has no real power, they are mere puppets. Remember what happend to Nawaz Sharif when he tried to sack Mushyrat for his Kargil fiasco?Kailash wrote:Cant help but laugh at this. If there was a backlash, that means that the entire agency is rogue. Not specific rogue elements within a otherwise benign setup.On one hand it will have to show the world, especially the US, that it is acting on some rogue elements in the ISI and on the other will need to prevent a backlash from its own premier security agency.
If you cant control operatives, why have the ISI? if you cant control ISI or army, why have an elected govt? Isnt that the flow of order within a sovereign nation?
It is precisely this kind of reasoning that eventually leads to one simple conclusion. Pakistan is not a normal "sovereign nation" but has merely been dignified by that name and support by a bunch of vested interests including the US of A. And China . Pakistan the "nation" is modeled around a temporary Mughal military camp or Kabila.Kailash wrote:
If you cant control operatives, why have the ISI? if you cant control ISI or army, why have an elected govt? Isnt that the flow of order within a sovereign nation?
On the airborne radars an useful inventory of AWACs / AEWCs:Pakistan has two kinds of radars, high-level radars and low-level radars. High-level radars are meant to protect the air space. Low-level radars are used for training flights. The maximum life of high-level radars is 25,000 hours. These radars need overhauling after three years and they cannot work after nine years. Due to the expensive nature of high-level radars, Pakistan Air Force does not use these machines 24 hours on western borders and that was the reason the American helicopters entered Pakistan without challenge.
From here:The PAF has received three Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) planes from Sweden and one more will come in June 2011. China has provided one ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEWC) plane and three more will come at the end of this year.
Brazil in their submission to the UN Register of Conventional Arms has disclosed no such supply of MAR-1 missiles to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan during calender year 2009:Kartik wrote:Pakistan is integrating the Brazilian Mectron MAR-1 anti-radiation weapon on the JF-17 Bandar
In 2008 a MAR-1 order from Pakistan for 100 missiles valued at EUR85 million (USD126 million) was announced by the Brazilian government, which provided export credit support for the deal. Reports from Pakistan suggested that deliveries started in 2009.
I would place far more reliance on Brazil’s disclosures of no sale of MAR-1 having been made to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan during calender years 2008 and 2009 than any motivated propaganda being floated by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to the contrary. Having accepted reporting to the UN I cannot see Brazil being prepared to make an exception for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and lie on its behalf.Luxtor wrote:^^^
Yea, but I think reporting weapons sales to the U.N. is voluntary so Brazil might not have reported it but still could have sold the weapons to the pukis.
But photos of the new Chinese helo should be available by next month at the latest.karan_mc wrote:I Bet Chinese copy will be ready in next three years ,if they are able to take a sample from the wreckage
Pakistan Hints China Wants a Peek at Secret Helicopter
Two American helicopters took off from Bagram airbase in Afghanistan in the dead of night, at about midnight. They were bristling with Navy Seals for combat and sophisticated electronics to evade radar. They weaved in and out of valleys, hugging rooftops as they arrived undetected at the targeted compound in Abbotabad. One helicopter hovered over the target while the other looped off briefly to check out a similar compound nearby that seemed to be some sort of security installation. Then two Stun bombs were chucked at the target, which went off like two big bangs, knocking out the occupants of the compound without crushing or destroying the building. Rope ladders were unfurled and Navy Seals with sophisticated body armour and night vision weapons were lowered down at critical points of attack and defense. One of the helicopters was hit with fire from the compound and forced to land. The Seals stormed the compound, killed three men and one woman, shot dead OBL, scooped up incriminating material, tied up the three remaining women, and scrambled aboard one functioning helicopter with OBL’s corpse and his son. The helicopter took off, stopped at some distance, turned around and fired a missile at the helicopter on the ground and destroyed it. Then it looped over and headed towards Bagram Air Base. During this time, a gathering of the US High Command in the Situation Room in the White House in Washington watched the operation live, thanks to cameras and mics on the helicopter in the air that were linked to the Seals on the ground. “Geronimo EKIA”, Enemy Killed In Action, went out an excited voice to the White House, where it was received with shouts of joy and relief.
Shortly after reports of a helicopter mishap in Abbotabad hit the media around 1.20 am, not so far away in Rawalpindi, the DG-ISI was woken up by a phone call about a crashed helicopter. He called his people to ask: “Is it ours?” After a brief check, he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up DG-MO. “Is it yours?” After a brief check he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up his boys and told them to rush to the scene of the incident. He also called up the COAS General Kayani to brief him. The COAS called up the top military man in Abbotabad who ordered forces to rush to the area. The COAS also called up the PAF Air Chief. The Air Chief checked, explained that radar hadn’t picked up any intruders, and ordered two F-16s to scramble. When the ISI team arrived at the compound, they reported the burning wreckage of the chopper and the markings on its fin. They reported three dead men and one woman. They reported a wounded woman who spoke Arabic and halting English, and two other women who were unharmed. They noted there were sixteen children aged six to eight years approximately. The woman said she was OBL’s wife, along with two other women, and confirmed that OBL and his family had been living in the compound for six years. She said the Americans had attacked them, killed OBL and taken his corpse. Soon thereafter, the army arrived to seal off the area and whisk away the occupants and dead bodies in the compound.
Around 3 am, Admiral Mullen called General Kayani, and CIA chief, Leon Panetta, called DG-ISI, General Pasha. They explained the nature of the operation and why it had been kept a secret from them. President Obama called President Zardari at 7 am to acquaint him with the facts. They thanked the Pakistanis for providing the initial clues that led the CIA to the compound. What was this piece of information?
Shortly after reports of a helicopter mishap in Abbotabad hit the media around 1.20 am, not so far away in Rawalpindi, the DG-ISI was woken up by a phone call about a crashed helicopter. He called his people to ask: “Is it ours?” After a brief check, he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up DG-MO. “Is it yours?” After a brief check he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up his boys and told them to rush to the scene of the incident. He also called up the COAS General Kayani to brief him. The COAS called up the top military man in Abbotabad who ordered forces to rush to the area. The COAS also called up the PAF Air Chief.
-------->>>> 3) DG-ISI calls COAS-TSPA ( no call from DGMO or MI or Abbotabad Garrison commander 
) ------->>> 4) COAS-TSPA calls TSPA garrison commander Abottabad ( so Abbotabad is a r&r posting for TSPA jernails to be woken up by bade jernail's fone ? ) ----->>>> 5) COAS-TSPA calls TSPAF Chief . Hmm......... not a military guy but something wrong with this chain of command . Take out ISI local office & whole TSPA is blind ? Abbotabad not far from Desh's fauj & is the level of their response wonder wht's its like in their ARS & ARN divs. 
( hey TSPian lurkers make this one as more addition to conspiracy theories tht TSPA knew everything but didn't say a word for some tactical brilliance but wht if its not true wet ur salwars we know whom to target when to target 
satya wrote:Shortly after reports of a helicopter mishap in Abbotabad hit the media around 1.20 am, not so far away in Rawalpindi, the DG-ISI was woken up by a phone call about a crashed helicopter. He called his people to ask: “Is it ours?” After a brief check, he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up DG-MO. “Is it yours?” After a brief check he was told, “no sir, it’s not ours”. He called up his boys and told them to rush to the scene of the incident. He also called up the COAS General Kayani to brief him. The COAS called up the top military man in Abbotabad who ordered forces to rush to the area. The COAS also called up the PAF Air Chief.
They would not have known what the Fug was going on. What can you do? You are in a peace area/peacetime posting not geared up for war - it is a training academy after all. Suddenly there are explosions and helicopters. You call boss - talk for 5 minutes. he calls his boss - talks for 5 minutes. Boss does not know. Will call back in 5 minutes. 30 minutes pass By the time security forces are mustered to go there its all over. The US has done well. The jingo celebration is in order - this is more like Entebbe than Mogadishu or Carter Iran hostage rescue.
Pakistan can be expected to reinforce its deterrent through an information campaign, surrounding a low threshold projection. This compensates for any weakness or lack of credibility relating to its deterrent, since the deterrent also covers the conventional level. Its projection of irrationality is in keeping with the ‘rationality of irrationality’ thesis - a part of nuclear deterrence theory. The idea is to keep India guessing and hopefully deterred.
To attribute a first use doctrine to Pakistan is to admit that India’s nuclear weapons do not deter adequately. This may not be true since Pakistan too is subject to the psychological effects of deterrence. Deterrence is heightened since first use implies a break in the nuclear taboo. There would also be no guarantee of success and the only certainty would be of costs - known and known unknowns as well as unimagined and unimaginable.
The upshot of this discussion is: firstly that first use is useful only for projection. Secondly, strategic sense favours an operational nuclear doctrine that tends towards NFU. Equally, strategic sense, from Pakistan’s point of view, is in keeping this secret. It can therefore be inferred, that the greater the projection the less likely the intention.
This is one assumption India will not challenge by departing from military prudence. Its recent distancing from Cold Start is not so much on account of the efficacy of Pakistani deterrence, but its own grand strategic economic imperative. Sensibly, even as India wishes to match step with Pakistan, it has no intention of accompanying Pakistan on its way downhill.
The Pakistan Air Force and Operation Geronimo
Forwarded by Major A.H. Amin (Pakistan Army, Retired). He received it from a former PAF officer he trusts.
With the latest PAF press briefing whose distorted version appeared today on TV channels and in the electronic edition of various newspapers including The News http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15235, PAF's case has been totally messed up and it has been put on the back foot unnecessarily. It was simply bad PR; an would have been far better, with no possibility of laymen's interpretation and distortion of facts by uninformed journalists about matters technical. Like most of you, I have been following the matter over the past few days and would like to offer the factual story as far as is known, without trying to cover any mistakes or offering lame excuses on behalf of what was, formerly, my parent service.
On the night of 2 May, four near-stealth/low observable MH-60 helicopters ingressed unobserved from Bagram to Abbotabad. (Some US websites displaying animated action include two Chinooks, which, to my mind does not make sense as it nullifies the rationale of the other two low observable MH-60s, unless the Chinooks also had stealth features). The helicopter package was able to exploit the blind areas inherent in radars over hilly/broken terrain, while their own low-observable structure helped no less. (It is not true that PAF radars were being given a rest to conserve their life, as has been reported in The News.) It must, however, be noted that it is the PAF's AEW Erieyes that are not operated round-the-clock during peacetime, else we would quickly wear them out.
A package of 6-7 support aircraft including EC-130E/H, MC-130, AC-130, E-3 AWACS and, most ominously, a pair of fighters of unknown type (possibly F-15C), were orbiting in FATA area. It was easy to masquerade this package as the usual retinue of half a dozen Predators, Reapers and Global Surveyors that have been flying in the same area - with government approval and PAF clearance - over the last several years. There was, therefore, no question of this support package arousing any suspicion on this particular night.
As the operation got under way, no Pak Army unit was present in the vicinity of the OBL compound. US assessment was that local Army units in Abbotabad would be able to react effectively, not before one hour at the earliest (to take orders and draw their weapons). It was also surmised that armed soldiers at quarter guards, guard rooms, etc would not leave their posts.
When the firing started, local commanders at Abbotabad rushed to the scene and soon informed GHQ, who in turn got in touch with AHQ. The latter immediately scrambled a pair of F-16s but by the time these got to Abbotabad in about 15 minutes, the operation was over and the helicopters had departed. Without any help from ground radar, the F-16s did not know where to look, as they had no idea that the incursion had been from the west. As a matter of fact, an intrusion from the east was uppermost in their minds. The helicopters once again flew low, through radar gaps and were not spotted either by ground radar or the F-16s. The reality dawned too late that we do not have an antidote to a stealth raiding package. USA carrying out such an attack was the biggest surprise for the PAF as well as the Army.
In some ways, it was fortuitous that PAF F-16s did not pick up the helicopters on their radars, or else the nearby patrolling US fighters would have made short work of them with their long range missiles, what with full communications and radar jamming support available to them.
To say that it was a failure of the PAF to react potently is completely incorrect and unfair. It was simply beyond its technical means to handle fifth-generation warfare vs USA. If it is a failure, it is at the national policy level, whereby US was compelled to sideline its much-ballyhooed ally because of trust deficit.
Editor's comment Editor is quite familiar with the PAF and its capabilities. Everything the officer has said is fair and reasonable. In matters of defense the Pakistan press is much worse than the Indian press, which is quite bad. Editor is not surprised that the Pakistan press has got everything wrong. In case you are thinking but surely PAF/ISPR knew that the press would muck up the story, you have to remember Pakistan military PR is plain terrible.
We cannot explain the MH-47 mystery, except to say the US has very few of the stealth MH-60s, possibly no more than four operational and perhaps a trainer. Its reasonable to assume it would not deploy more than two for the mission as US has global commitments.
Pakistan’s Nuclear Requirements
By krepon | 10 May 2011 | 32 Comments
Why is Pakistan building so many nuclear weapons and blocking the start of fissile material cutoff negotiations? There are many reasons. One is that Pakistani military officers who establish nuclear requirements read what Indians have to say. They have read Kautilya, the Indian version of Machiavelli, who wrote Arthasastra around 300 BCE. Great shoebox quotes: “Agreements of peace shall be made with equal and superior kings; an inferior king shall be attacked.” And “Whoever goes to wage war with a superior king will be reduced to the same condition as that of a foot soldier opposing an elephant.” …………………………..
ACW