Indian Army: News & Discussion

Sean Rowe · Post by **Sean Rowe** » 08 May 2011 17:53

She is very naive and ignorant.
What she does not know is Pak is a active member of Organization of Islamic Conference and Pak military thinks itself as protector of Islamic cause through out world (either it is Islamic bomb or advanced missiles imported from china). Showing pity and sympathy towards enemy is a weakness not strength.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 May 2011 18:51

okay guys, please stick to discussing the army here, not half-wits and their articles. those are best put in the DDM thread.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 May 2011 22:00

India's Own Operation Geronimo?
Preparing for a strike today could avoid the need for an actual one tomorrow.

Sorry not directly related to IA but it is a good red

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 May 2011 07:20

Retired Major General Ashok K Mehta in the Wall Street Journal:

India's Own Operation Geronimo? : Preparing for a strike today could avoid the need for an actual one tomorrow

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 May 2011 10:28

Exercise "Vijayee Bhava" begins today

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 May 2011 14:12

Indian Army, Air Force Begin Six-Day Joint Exercise Along Western Deserts

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2011 14:18

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 4/0544.jpg

in this photo are these para-cdo unit? note the rail mounted thermal imager (perhaps pulled off a ATGM launcher) in one the vehicles.

but it looks apparent the jeeps and gypsys are too small to sustain combat endurance and too cramped to carry along bigger weapons. some of the heavier vehicles (4x4 and small trucks) used by western desert forces seem more appropriate and indeed 3 contenders seemed to have been tested - were these ordered later? adding a couple of small trucks fielding remotely operated 20mm cannons ups the firepower against HMG/MMG armed opposition by a lot.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 May 2011 14:37

Would heavier vehicles not slow down the raid due to higher profile and limited (comparatively) mobility? Also get bogged down in various places where Gypsies et al can move out quickly? Plus they will need insertion and extraction on heli's.

I think the lighter the better? Have a extra jeep for carrying heavier stuff if needed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 May 2011 15:07

These Gypsies looks like some Indian Jugad hastily retrofitted with some extra stuff and cutting some flab for SF operation , these are not the Mil Grade type Light Vehical we see in Humvee/Iveco/Tigr stuff.

A Humvee type vehical would be able to carry better loads and can endure the terrain much better with far better protection level.

Such open vehical for SF will mean it offers no real protection against light fire and a civil grade jugad stuff cannot endure those harsh condition for long.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 May 2011 16:05

Austin wrote: Such open vehical for SF will mean it offers no real protection against light fire and a civil grade jugad stuff cannot endure those harsh condition for long.

Whats Humvee fuel consumption and range? 2.5 Km /L in city and 5-6 in open? With 95 Liter tank. 500 kms -- thats pretty poor for a desert long range patrol compared to a gypsy which would give 12-13 Kmpl with 40 liter tank for civvy version (and 60+ for Spec ops version) -- giving a range of 700 kmpl.

And the above is rough calculation. I am sure Gypsy can do more in the spec ops version.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 May 2011 17:00

Even if Humvee like vehical offers lower mileage , they offer far better protection and are far more rugged for such terrain , the vehical that they seem to use looks to me just a civilian ripped off derivative , that offer zero protection against any kind of small arms and its resistance to small mines and ruggedness is questionable.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 May 2011 17:23

Austin wrote:Even if Humvee like vehical offers lower mileage , they offer far better protection and are far more rugged for such terrain , the vehical that they seem to use looks to me just a civilian ripped off derivative , that offer zero protection against any kind of small arms and its resistance to small mines and ruggedness is questionable.

They offer none, which I think is not what they are looking for. They are deep desert patrols. I think they want to get in quickly, undetected and move back.

The vehicles are just one step away from a foot based insertion and retrieval. They dont expect to use those vehicles to fight their way through.

But I think without the consideration of small fire etc. The gypsys et al are more rugged (in terms of mechanical failures due to inclement terrain etc) than Humvees etc.

Typical light and quick vs heavy and strong.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2011 18:07

one thing is sure - such units if they are run to ground by discovery or ambush will suffer pretty heavy losses and running away would be only option.

the three vehicles we tested _ iirc it was JVs from telco, AL and M&M with some foreign firms were in the shape and size of the mercedes G-wagen SF version which would seem to offer a decent compromise between {speed, smaller size, low logistical needs} vs {roomy, better protection , mil grade rugged}

a bradleyM3/CV90 is definitely too heavy for sneaking around...massa uses hummers and smallish trucks for that ...chuck norris uses a dune buggy of sorts and trail bikes fitted with back firing rockets

eric bana of blackhawk down used a simple folding bicycle..am sure must be expensive cannondale/bianchi/merida though

http://www.rheinmetall.de/img/agf_25_gr.jpg

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 May 2011 18:14

Army Yachting hosted "Laser Coastal National Sailing Championship 2011" underway

viktor · Post by **viktor** » 09 May 2011 19:22

Guru log, what happened to Light Support Vehicle called Windy 505 ?

And what about tests for Army's Light Support Vehicle competition which is for 8000 LSVs that was started few years back.
Tata Motors LSV, Ashok Leyland LSV, M&M's Axe, Vectra & and OFB's Flyer were the competitors.

This is one of the pics found online.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachmen ... trials.jpg

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 May 2011 19:39

In addition I think Para Cdos would expect their equipment to be para-dropped if needed and have low ground pressure so as to move across loose desert soil.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 May 2011 21:08

a bit OT but does the regular US army use a higher number of bipod MMGs per section or platoon than the more 'traditonal' armies like UK or India?
almost every action pic (iraq/afpak) I see of US troops say a pack of 4 or 5 seems to have atleast one guy using a M249 SAW type weapon, usually with a UGBL too.
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/image ... osters.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/5/5 ... -SAW-1.jpg

I read somewhere the pakis follow the american system and similarly have a higher number of MMG per platoon than india.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 May 2011 23:02

Singha, yes, the US infantry battalion TOE has a lot more firepower than its Indian equivalent. But your questions are somewhat confusing: MMGs are RifCoy assets in the US, Bttn assets in India. M249s are technically equivalent to the INSAS LMGs (both are squad/section assets), but can used linked ammo. In the US, each fireteam (4 men) is organized around a grenadier (with ubgl) or a SAW gunner, so there are a lot more of them concentration-wise. The UK is also moving towards this form of organization (almost all operational units have converted). India also wants to move to similar lines, but it is not getting the priority it requires to effect a uniform transition. The Paks, IIRC, are organized along the old German/Spanish model of organization; their MG3s are used in a hybrid role between LMGs and MMGs.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 May 2011 10:05

Singha, ParGha has given the complete explanation but to put it in more simple terms, SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), which the trooper in first pic is holding is a sqaud level (or Section level in case of IA) weapon...equivalent to our LMG. Another difference is that US Army uses 12.7mm/0.5inch caliber at battalion level....we don't have HMG in Infantry Battalions (exception being units along LOC). We tried the same but the imcremental effort was not judged to be worth the effort.

WRT Para-Cdo and Gypsies, that is quite a dated photo. There is a new version of Mahindra 4x4 Jeep in IA service...it has also has special tyres for desert ops. It is called the Mahindra MM550XD.

Check brief details here:

http://www.4-the-love-of-jeeps.com/mahi ... -jeep.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 May 2011 10:11

Armed forces want golf as a sport, will reduce bonding says Army Veteran

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 10 May 2011 12:48

chackojoseph wrote:Armed forces want golf as a sport, will reduce bonding says Army Veteran

one is compelled to agree with the contention of the veteran. apart from what is in it, golf at the level it is played presently is exclusively for the top level officers of the services with little participation from the rank and file. also it is one of the major distraction in peace stations, that divert time, manpower and resources from the requirement of the day, ie training.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 10 May 2011 13:06

nelson wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Armed forces want golf as a sport, will reduce bonding says Army Veteran
one is compelled to agree with the contention of the veteran. apart from what is in it, golf at the level it is played presently is exclusively for the top level officers of the services with little participation from the rank and file. also it is one of the major distraction in peace stations, that divert time, manpower and resources from the requirement of the day, ie training.

Huh?? Apparently youre under the impression that instead of training, people are off playing golf? What has given you this idea?

Army bases have always had golf courses, even from the British days. What is peoples problem if someone wants to play golf? And the golf courses AND the Army have been around longer than the CAG has, so I dont know what gives them the locus to term them "Unauthorised" retrospectively. Possibly the fact that the Indian Audit and Accounts Service officers are jealous that they dont have any golf courses?

As a matter of fact, several State police academies, the BSF, the CRPF, the Railways, and the ITBP also ALL have golf courses (several). What about those?

This sort of petty nitpicking is the favourite sport of the equal-equal brigade in government, those who want service personnel to be given exactly the SAME or LESS benefits than them, even though they dont want to ever do the sort of work that service members do.

This is what leads to amusing situations like disability rules that give much greater and more liberal disability benefits to civil serrvice members than service officers. So, if a under secretary falls off his chair and hurts himself, he gets a greater financial benefit than a serviceman who gets his leg blown off in a mine blast.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 May 2011 13:06

BS! What is the problem with senior people playing golf? It allows people in stressful jobs to unwind and stay fit. I know officers who play 4-5 times a week (depending upon availability of a course at their current posting) and they are very fit. And these officers are doing very well at their main job. In which other sector do people in senior roles walk > 6000 yards every day. Perhaps the pot-bellies in CAG should take up some golf, it will help the blood circulation in their brains.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 10 May 2011 14:13

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 May 2011 14:30

nelson wrote:
Huh?? Apparently youre under the impression that instead of training, people are off playing golf? What has given you this idea?
why not? you can check how many combatant personal are manning the golf courses in any of the permanent stations of formations under going the following...

http://frontierindia.net/exercise-vijay ... gins-today

What can anyone say to that! I tried to answer at first, but gave up. In fact, I doubt if anyone can give a response matching the brilliance of your post.

PS: Really, why is there never a facepalm emicon when you need it?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 May 2011 14:31

Folks are missing the point. "Bonding."

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 May 2011 17:25

The reality is inbetween teh two positions being staked out.

An ex COAS would abscond to the golf course by 3 in the afternoon on many a weekday.

Go figure!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 May 2011 19:27

Gen JJS ?

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 10 May 2011 19:38

nelson wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Armed forces want golf as a sport, will reduce bonding says Army Veteran
one is compelled to agree with the contention of the veteran. apart from what is in it, golf at the level it is played presently is exclusively for the top level officers of the services with little participation from the rank and file. also it is one of the major distraction in peace stations, that divert time, manpower and resources from the requirement of the day, ie training.

Ummm .. Ok .. how about sports like Squash, Tennis, Badminton, TT, swimming, equestrian sports et al. Should those also be banned as they reduce the "bonding" between officers and men & also take divert manpower from training for construction/maintenance and upkeep of courts and swimming pool?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 May 2011 19:38

lots of military folks come "to work" at 6am or earlier, therefore absconding at 3pm for golf is perfectly reasonable!

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 10 May 2011 20:17

AnimeshP wrote: Ummm .. Ok .. how about sports like Squash, Tennis, Badminton, TT, swimming, equestrian sports et al. Should those also be banned as they reduce the "bonding" between officers and men & also take divert manpower from training for construction/maintenance and upkeep of courts and swimming pool?

there is quite a good level of participation from the ranks in many of the sports listed. you can check the services or army red/green, AF, navy teams for these disciplines.
and none of these sports suck manpower/ resource as running a golf course does.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 10 May 2011 20:37

^^^^for those who have served with men it is easy to understand the "bonding" which is being jocularly dealt with here. it is this "bonding" between officers and the men they lead that takes a unit through its difficult and testing times. in field and operational area that "bonding " takes place side by side.
in peace locations and for units with formations permanently located in peace the sports field is the best equivalent of the war like situation where an officer can brush shoulders with his men on a equal-equal basis. the problem with Golf that the veteran tries to espouse through that article is that the participation of officers in troop games suffers because of the lesser visibility and higher injury risk, they offer compared to Golf.
this is only one drawback, amongst many others, of encouraging Golf in a major way. the disproportionate resource that the game of Golf sucks in can only be seen to be believed.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 May 2011 20:59

Lalmohan

That was not the case

There are freaking things lined up till evening.

This was not even pencilled in for the day.

ie. a few people were left twiddling their thumbs and the inside jokes suggested that this was not new or rare

Rahul - bingo

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 10 May 2011 22:19

for those who have served with men it is easy to understand the "bonding" which is being jocularly dealt with here. it is this "bonding" between officers and the men they lead that takes a unit through its difficult and testing times. in field and operational area that "bonding " takes place side by side.

^^^^^^^^
Flawed theory

Golf is played by senior officers , for the most part..officers of Colonel rank and above, or 45+ and above.....not really spring chickens, that can run around in field games like football, hockey etc. Moreover, the army has a bunch of locations that are formation HQ (Corps, Command), Officers Training establishments and troop family stations..where the concentration of jawans per se is lower...

Finally, junior officers and/or regimental officers for the most part participate in field games like hockey, volleyball, football etc. So, communication between jawans and officers remains strong..

BTW, a lot of the BS regarding golf courses comes from stations like Mum, Del, Bangalore etc, where there is a strong lobby to de-notify mily areas (incldg some golf courses) so that they are available for civil construction....imagine the USI golf course in Mum being made available to a developer...

There are also some non-services personnel who after being rebuffed entry, try and make an issue of the whole thing....

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 10 May 2011 23:39

Avik wrote: BTW, a lot of the BS regarding golf courses comes from stations like Mum, Del, Bangalore etc, where there is a strong lobby to de-notify mily areas (incldg some golf courses) so that they are available for civil construction....imagine the USI golf course in Mum being made available to a developer...

There are also some non-services personnel who after being rebuffed entry, try and make an issue of the whole thing....

That may well be true(I've seen enough of it in Gymkhana Clubs across the country) but Golf and golf courses do suck up a lot of time and resources. Apart from that they have a serious role in creating political patronage. I've known lots of officers not getting ahead because the other guy plays golf with the big kahuna and he doesn't. I'm all for getting rid of golf courses.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 May 2011 03:00

An old Army World War 2 veteran from the Maratha Light Infantry, who dosen’t want to be identified says that it is a bad idea. “It will reduce the bonding between the officers and the jawans. Normally, officers and Jawans have friendly matches with football, volleyball etc. In past few years I have seen the trend that officers have taken up golf and the bonding has reduced. These bondings are the basic thread which holds togther the officers and men,” he said.

ahem - really WW2 cough cough

someone trying to hide their id here

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 May 2011 06:29

Lalmohan wrote:lots of military folks come "to work" at 6am or earlier, therefore absconding at 3pm for golf is perfectly reasonable!

That is simply not true. For most part of a year they follow normal hours i.e. 8-5 unless you are referring to the routine followed by the cadets in the academy or watch-keeping duty .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 May 2011 08:31

one of my uncles played too much golf. he got passed over for promotion and left thereafter for pvt industry.

in places like delhi (dhaula kuan) and mumbai (USI) where pvt citizens are also allowed (usually CxO types) I think the senior afsars use that to build pvt contacts for the next job. more of a social/status thing? however the guy playing golf @ 7am at kalimpong or chabua might be just bored or passionate about it.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 11 May 2011 10:49

DRDO, ISRO Miliary, ISR Platforms being tested during Indian Army, Air Force Joint Exercises

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 13 May 2011 20:54

X-post from Af-Pak thread

Marut wrote:wrt to MMS visit to Afg, there has been a lot of commitment from India towards the development of Afghanistan and continued support towards rebuilding and establishment of law & order facilities. Apart from this, there has also been a lot of discussion abt post OBL status of Afg. Afg is sure of US scale down of troops and support. They don't want Pak nosing in. Request had been made for security assistance some time ago. With OBL gone, there was repeat request. khanate has also blessed this. Word is we are seriously considering it - chaiwallah says we won't do token deployment. we are looking at nearly 50k troops at least, mostly RR types and some SF units as well. T55 and some arty will also go. helos and some AF will accompany as well to support the group. Dual purpose - secure Afg and train their troops. khans are providing $$$ and ivan will give supply route. will share more when details come in.