India Nuclear News And Discussion

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Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

GuruPrabhu wrote:However, the "anything or everything" falls apart where nuke is concerned because mango man has fear of the invisible, i.e., radioactivity. Amber's example simply shows that coal produces TONS more radioactivity than nuke power.
Finally, the key admission. Nuke power produces radioactivity.

Honestly this radiation in coal business is a shill. And you guys know it. The very fact you bring it up demonstrates bad faith.

It is not U238 or Th232 we fear but, Cs137, Pu239, Sr90 etc that we fear.

WRT Thorium, after 50 years of work we are still not ready to take that leap. People forget that others have tried to breed Thorium. All were deeply disappointed with real world performance, esp. the Canadians. Superman BARC shall prove them all wrong.

Meanwhile, never say our dinosaur PSU's have no sense of humor...

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... rs/793856/
To dispel fears of villagers opposed to the nuclear power project in Jaitapur, the Nuclear Power Corporation of India (NPCIL) will distribute a comic book that will also focus on the benefits they would reap from nuclear energy.

The comic, Ek Tha Budhiya: Kahani Ek Khushal Gaon Ki (The Story of a Prosperous Village), narrates the story of Jagdishpur, a village that had been underdeveloped for years owing to ignorance and outdated beliefs, which transforms into an ideal one after a nuclear plant is set up.
This is what passes for serious discussion on their self proclaimed nuclear plans apparently. Also this might be DDM but almost every second sentence is incorrect....

Honestly people here won't trust a PSU to so much as prepare their electricity bill yet when it comes to Nuclear plant safety the love of PSU's overflows. Despite all the shoddy nuclear accidents that have happened already. Einsteins definition of insanity...
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Battle of Yucca Mountain rages on
Nature 473, 266-267 (2011)
Staff have been cut, contractors laid off, offices closed and even furniture disposed of. But despite all its efforts to back away from plans to store spent nuclear fuel deep under Yucca Mountain, Nevada, the administration of US President Barack Obama just can't seem to bury the idea.

An expert commission appointed by the administration is looking for an alternative solution. On 13 May, at a public meeting in Washington DC, commissioners discussed some preliminary recommendations: create one or more centralized facilities at which waste would be temporarily stored in dry casks, while engaging with the public in a new process to identify a permanent repository for the piles of spent nuclear fuel accumulating at US reactors. But given the history of doubts about the site's geology and the state-wide opposition that has plagued Yucca Mountain since it was singled out by the US Congress nearly a quarter of a century ago, many are sceptical that a more palatable answer will emerge.

"It is important that there will be a consensus recommendation, but it is our view that most of the issues associated with used nuclear fuel have been considered for a long time," says Alex Flint, senior vice-president for governmental affairs at the Nuclear Energy Institute in Washington DC. The on­going nuclear disaster in Japan is adding some urgency to the question, Flint says, but "it hasn't made reaching agreement any easier".

Meanwhile, an 8 April report from the Government Accountability Office (GAO), an independent arm of Congress, says the Department of Energy should "develop a preliminary plan to restart the project" at Yucca Mountain, anticipating that future policy shifts — and a pair of legal challenges from states that want to get rid of the waste piling up within their borders — may force it to do just that.

Even after decades' worth of research on the site, costing more than US$15 billion, doubts remain over the technical suitability of Yucca Mountain, given factors such as seismic activity and water infiltration. But the politics were crystal clear when Obama promised to shut it down during his 2008 election campaign. In keeping with that promise, last year the energy department filed a motion to withdraw its application to store nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain — offering no technical or scientific reasons for the reversal, except to say that the project was "not a workable option".

By then, however, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was in the midst of a regulatory assessment that — barring the inevitable lawsuits — could have cleared the way for waste shipments to Yucca Mountain, as directed under a federal law signed by President George W. Bush in 2002. Now the department's decision to withdraw is being challenged within the NRC, in federal courts and on Capitol Hill.

"Now that this administration has decided to ignore the law, our nation has no long-term storage plans for radio­active wastes," lamented Republican (Georgia) representative Paul Broun, chairman of the House Science Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight, during a congressional hearing last week. He and other Republicans on the science panel, together with two other House committees, are challenging the administration's decision and demanding documentation.

Image

Their complaints have new resonance in the wake of Japan's Fukushima Daiichi power plant disaster, in which radioactivity from nuclear waste stored at the plant apparently escaped into the environment. In the United States, more than 65,000 tonnes of spent nuclear fuel from commercial reactors currently sit in temporary storage, with around 2,000 more tonnes accumulating every year (see 'A growing dilemma'). Combined with waste from weapons programmes, the amount surpasses what has been set as Yucca Mountain's statutory limit, although there is room to expand should the site find itself back in business. Much of the waste resides in storage pools at reactor sites, like those at Fukushima.

Additional pressure is coming from states that want their spent nuclear fuel moved out. Washington and South Carolina are leading challenges to the Department of Energy's decision to withdraw from Yucca Mountain, both at the NRC and in the District of Columbia Federal Appeals Court. "Our reading of the law is that the issue needs to be concluded on the basis of its technical merits," says Mary Sue Wilson, a lawyer working on the case for the Washington State Attorney General.

Within the NRC itself, the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board ruled last year that the energy department does not have the legal authority to withdraw its application. A final decision on that case is now pending before the full commission, which is chaired by Gregory Jaczko, a political appointee. He is the former chief of staff to Senate majority leader Harry Reid of Nevada, who has spearheaded opposition to Yucca Mountain, and many believe that Jaczko is stalling to prevent a ruling against the administration.

"The chairman controls when the NRC votes, and the chairman doesn't like the current vote," says Lake Barrett, a consultant and former deputy director at the energy department. NRC officials say the commissioners are still deliberating on the issue.

Speaking at the Annual Nuclear Industry Conference and Nuclear Supplier Expo in Washington DC on 11 May, deputy energy secretary Daniel Poneman told industry officials that the administration is hoping the presidential commission will find a way to reshape the discussion and build the kind of consensus that will at last allow the country to move forward.

"Clearly, the mistake we made in 1987 was jamming it down the throat of the Nevadans," says Phil Sharp, a commission member and president of Resources for the Future, a think tank based in Washington DC. Sharp says the government must work with the public and communities, presenting nuclear waste disposal as a national priority in a way that appeals to people's patriotism.

The commission intends to issue a draft report in July and a final one next January. With its recommendations in hand, the administration is expected to propose legislation that would establish a new process for identifying nuclear waste storage sites.

Yet such a process could well take decades, the GAO report concludes, and the government's reversal at Yucca Mountain could serve to galvanize public opposition at other candidate sites. Since the debate began, "no states have expressed an interest in hosting a permanent repository for this spent nuclear fuel ... including the states with sites currently storing the waste", the report adds. The commission's scheme for an interim storage facility may prove no more appealing, given fears that 'interim' means permanent as long as the present impasse continues. Such fears have in the past halted interim storage proposals in states such as Wyoming. And even if one community decides that it is willing to play host to the waste, that doesn't mean others won't challenge nuclear-waste transportation routes.

Nevertheless, the nation will need to find a permanent repository at some point, and Yucca Mountain, it seems, is down but not out. "Yucca Mountain has nine lives," says Ed Davis, a nuclear consultant who heads the Pegasus Group in Washington DC. "And nobody knows how many lives have been used up."
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Finally, the key admission. Nuke power produces radioactivity.

Honestly this radiation in coal business is a shill. And you guys know it. The very fact you bring it up demonstrates bad faith.

It is not U238 or Th232 we fear but, Cs137, Pu239, Sr90 etc that we fear.
Theo,

Didn't expect this from you. Lots of studies have been posted - some very academic ones whose pedigree even the most Doubting Thomases wouldn't question - here and in the erstwhile Fukushima thread about comparative radiation releases of nuclear power plants vis a vis coal powered thermal power plants during NORMAL operation.

I deliberately put normal in bold cap. Because can you tell us how much Cs137, Pu239, Sr90 etc a nuclear power plant releases into the atmosphere during normal day to day operation?

Contrast that with the fact thatU238 and/or Th232 are released every day when a coal power plant produces a MW of electricity. [Personally Amber's post was an eyeopener! :eek: ]

The difference which Amber and others are point to in this particular case is that.

Also, please note that in around 60 years of nuclear power generation with around 500 plants around the world producing god knows how many thousands of GW of power, there have only been only two known instances of these nasty stuff being released into the atmosphere - Chernobyl and now Fukushima. Three Mile was not recorded to have released significant amounts of these bad stuff. To expect that the moment some nuclear power plant starts operating in India it will start belching all that stuff borders on paranoia.

Again as I've been saying everything needs to be viewed with a sense of perspective.
WRT Thorium, after 50 years of work we are still not ready to take that leap. People forget that others have tried to breed Thorium. All were deeply disappointed with real world performance, esp. the Canadians. Superman BARC shall prove them all wrong.
I know it's par for the course for SDREs to belittle the efforts of other SDREs especially when the TFTA goras have failed. But what to do we still keep on pursuing it we are like this onlee...

Problem is this kind of mentality grows when it is constantly fed by Gora propaganda about the great achievements of other Goras and now the Chinese while the dhoti-clad desi is just foundering. I'm sure folks here remember that recent article which talked about the "great achievements" of the Chinese in Thorium and where they are on the verge of becoming "world leaders" without one mention of India?

Well I guess the authors and their backers can sit back with satisfaction.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

Tanaji wrote:negi saab, the typical argument against nuclear goes either that it is dangerous since it releases radioactivity in normal course of operation or if it fails it the costs are too high. Amber is merely putting things in perspective for the first one.
Tanaji well put Sir!

Negi Saab is perhaps forgetting how this comparison came to be made in the first place on this thread. It's precisely because of the reason you cite. The argument that was being touted was the moment a nuclear power plant starts operating it would be releasing radioactivity as a matter of course and killing people. It was then many folks, including myself, pointed out that coal fired power plants already kill thousands of people every year during day to day operations.

[We've even had a poster claiming, just before Gerard temporarily shut down this thread, that the carbon footprint of nuclear power plants is the same as that of a typical coal-fired thermal plant!]

I know Negi Saab perhaps thinks that pollution from two-stroke engines, big SUVs, heck even Nanos also kills thousands of people. Which is certainly true but I don't think that really is consolation to folks affected by coal thermal plant pollution.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

amit wrote: I deliberately put normal in bold cap. Because can you tell us how much Cs137, Pu239, Sr90 etc a nuclear power plant releases into the atmosphere during normal day to day operation?
ZERO. I answered that in case no one else did.
I know it's par for the course for SDREs to belittle the efforts of other SDREs especially when the TFTA goras have failed. But what to do we still keep on pursuing it we are like this onlee...
I have learned to ignore such comments from naysayers. But you are right - the best way to move on is to simply say that Indian scientists are idiots and incompetent in everything they do. Screw all the papers from BARC and IGCAR because obviously all that data is fake (this was posited by one of the worthies).

But this leads to a BIG problem. If DAE is so incompetent, does it not make sense to IMPORT NOW and import forever?

What now? Cognitive dissonance?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

GuruPrabhu wrote: But this leads to a BIG problem. If DAE is so incompetent, does it not make sense to IMPORT NOW and import forever?

What now? Cognitive dissonance?
You are assuming that others also automatically assume that firangi's are better. :P
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by negi »

amit wrote:I know Negi Saab perhaps thinks that pollution from two-stroke engines, big SUVs, heck even Nanos also kills thousands of people. Which is certainly true but I don't think that really is consolation to folks affected by coal thermal plant pollution.
"Consolation to folks who are affected by coal thermal pollution"; ah nice try . Can you explain as to how does one distinguish between folks affected by one form of air pollution or the other ?

Don't argue just for the heck of it; if you read my post I clearly stated that pollution and impact on environment take a back seat when it comes to decisions on viable sources of energy if the powers that be were so concerned about the folks whom you are wailing about then we would not have had the so called developed world importing and burning hydrocarbons be it coal or petrol/diesel.

Why the firsts in nuclear energy like Unkil and Germany have their energy policy a$$ backwards and are dependent on hydrocarbons for more than 50% of their energy needs ? These guys could have gone the French/Japan way and set up far more nuclear power plants and decrease reliance on dirty coal for the betterment of the humanity. The so called birth place of Industrialization today is dependent on Russian gas for it's energy needs. My point being decision to choose between coal vs nuclear was never based on environmental concerns, it wasn't in the past and it won't be in future as well, the only reason why nuclear energy needs a big push is Coal is running out no one cares for the fact that it is polluting the planet (that's what industrilaization is all about).
Last edited by negi on 22 May 2011 23:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

Sanku wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote: But this leads to a BIG problem. If DAE is so incompetent, does it not make sense to IMPORT NOW and import forever?

What now? Cognitive dissonance?
You are assuming that others also automatically assume that firangi's are better. :P
It is a chain of logic. Please indicate your break-point in that chain and I will be happy to start a new chain at the branch point.

Are you stating that IGCAR is competent to make the FBRs work? If so, you and I agree.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

negi wrote:... ah nice try . Can you explain as to how does one distinguish between folks affected by one form of air pollution or the other ?
Yes. A study was posted earlier (I believe by Somnath). ICE emissions are rich in carbon and sulphur oxides. OTOH, Coal ash has a large particulate matter and radioactivity content.
My point being decision to choose between coal vs nuclear was never based on environmental concerns, it wasn't in the past and it won't be in future as well, the only reason why nuclear energy needs a big push is Coal is running out no one cares for the fact that it is polluting the planet (that's what industrilaization is all about).
I actually agree with you. But then, why do you have to attack anyone who states that coal is a dirty tech that kills people daily? It is just a fact.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Bade »

Why the firsts in nuclear energy like Unkil and Germany have their energy policy a$$ backwards and are dependent on hydrocarbons for more than 50% of their energy needs ? These guys could have gone the French/Japan way and set up far more nuclear power plants and decrease reliance on dirty coal for the betterment of the humanity. The so called birth place of Industrialization today is dependent on Russian gas for it's energy needs.
I shall guess an answer with nothing to back it up. Maybe it is a European bargain with next door Russia. Amrika is not going to be ever present all over Europe. So the decision is not based purely on environmental reasons as it is sold, but some back room deal or black mail from Russia.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by negi »

GP first part is a hair splitting exercise, you should know better than me.

I am not attacking no one; I am merely pointing out the futility of this pollutant argument i.e. as far as pollution from coal is concerned 'it is what it is'.

Obvisouly I do realise that nuclear power is a lot cleaner, but then the fact that it is a lot less harmful as comapred to coal is perhaps not as big a factor as other issues(I think inherent bias has to be blamed for this than just mere ignorance) which are preventing it from being utilised to it's fullest extent.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

negi wrote:I am not attacking no one; I am merely pointing out the futility of this pollutant argument i.e. as far as pollution from coal is concerned 'it is what it is'.
Fair enough. Meanwhile, I am preoccupied because of another attack -- Jihadis are attacking TSP navy. Will pick this up later.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

negi wrote:"Consolation to folks who are affected by coal thermal pollution"; ah nice try . Can you explain as to how does one distinguish between folks affected by one form of air pollution or the other ?
Well for starters you could have a look at the various studies that have been linked here. You could try the one that Amber linked to. I'm no expert in this and I suspect neither are you. But the fact remains that there have been studies done which have distinguished or let's say pinpointed deaths caused by pollution emanating from coal-fired thermal power plants. They have even given estimates. For example one from a couple of years ago says 4,500 people die annually in Northeastern US due to pollution emanating from burning coal for electricity.

If you think such reports are hogwash, well you're entitled to your opinion but don't be surprised if others don't buy it.
Don't argue just for the heck of it;
Boss you're the one who's arguing just for the heck of it. Both Tanaji and myself, as well as others, have told you the exact context in which this deaths due to coal-fired thermal power plants came into the discussion. You choose to ignore it, again that's fine by me, but don't pass judgment on others.

Those in favour of nuclear power don't have argue just for the heck of it as the economics as well as science behind nuclear power is sufficient justification. And, again, I think you'd have seen enough of arguments being presented on these lines - far more than the pollution aspect, which by the way is genuine and not pulled out of somebody's musharaff.
My point being decision to choose between coal vs nuclear was never based on environmental concerns, it wasn't in the past and it won't be in future as well,
No arguments on that point, in fact I agree with you.

And Oh yes, I usually get tired of explaining the same thing over and over again. So my last post on this subject. I leave the field wide open.

Cheers!
Last edited by amit on 23 May 2011 14:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Screw all the papers from BARC and IGCAR because obviously all that data is fake (this was posited by one of the worthies).

But this leads to a BIG problem. If DAE is so incompetent, does it not make sense to IMPORT NOW and import forever?

What now? Cognitive dissonance?
Indeed cognitive dissonance has been a recurring theme ever since we started the discussion on Fukushima. Folks have cried themselves hoarse about how dangerous Nuke power is by quoting eminents like Busby Saab and others. One worthy posited that there is a major nuclear accident every 10 years.

But there's only so much you can wring out of Fukushima; TEPCO bad, Japanese stupid, deceitful etc, LWRs are bad, GE bad etc are all fine but after a while, on BRF at least, you need to ask what does all this mean for India, that is what the key takeaway or lessons learnt?

After all inquiring minds would ask, if nuclear is so bad, the entire global industry is full of liars and cheats and operates like a cabal, thousands are condemned to die in India from nuclear plants just as thousands will die from Fukushima, itaydi then what should India do? Abandon nuclear power all together? Simple pooch but the resultant filibuster was anything but simple.

Anyway choro, SDREs need to tighten their dhotis, take anti-shiver pills and keep on doing what they have been doing all these years, that is create a world-class nuclear industry. And do it at pay-scales which would match chaprasi pay scales in the TFTA countries.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Bade Saar,

I am sure that you are aware that the geothermal heating of the earth's mantle and crust is attributed to uranium/thorium and potassium decays. Recent discovery of geo-neutrinos have confirmed this. The U/Th deposits are part of basaltic melts -- the estimate for *average* U content is something like 10^-8 - 10^-7, However, for mining purposes, much higher concentrations are needed.

Surprisingly, the U/Th content of the mantle is much higher than the core (counter-intuitive, if you think that heavier elements should sink. However, the process is chemical, not gravitational). The source of earth's heat is to a large extent due to U/Th/Pb/K decays. There was conjecture that there is a natural reactor in the earth's core, but it is being disproven by geo-neutrino data.

Here is some reading for your pleasure:

Fyfe had done the original seminal work on geochemical cycle of uranium:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1979RSPTA.291..433F

Here is a well regarded later work on estimating U/Th content:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/54182

Here is something from WNA on the cosmic origin of uranium:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf78.html

Here are some news items and webpages on geo-neutrinos and their discovery:
http://www.physorg.com/news187946006.html
http://kamland.stanford.edu/GeoNeutrino ... rinos.html
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~mcdonoug/geoneutrinos.htm

If your interest gets more aroused, here is a good text on geodynamics:
http://www.amazon.com/Geodynamics-Donal ... 0521666244
GP To echo Bade, Thanks. Good info, please keep it up, whenever you get time.

Interesting part (physics wise) about U/Th content of the mantle is much higher than the core. I have heard that before, and it indeed could be a good challenging question .. (as to why heavier elements like U, Th (and Zr, W) don't sink while Pt, Os or Iron etc do...).
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

GuruPrabhu wrote: Are you stating that IGCAR is competent to make the FBRs work? If so, you and I agree.
Competent?, At least as much as any one else in the world is, if not more, however, this remains work in progress, I do not know for sure if mankind has unlocked all the mechanisms of its engineering.

Asking questions on progress of BARC does not mean that they are being derided. It is both a process of understanding, and a prerogative that we Indians accord ourselves, of being argumentative.

If you look around the forum, at any given point of time, GoI and its decisions are being questioned, you yourself for example have taken issues with babudom. So questioning BARC does not automatically mean that the questions be replied with -- "you are questioning GoI do you want firangi's to run the show."

BTW happy tidings on the glad day of early diwali.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

...
AmberG, the numbers [U/Th contents in coal ash] are astonishing. And to let all that float away and lost is criminal.
Bade, Amit et al -
Yes, the numbers, for the most people who have not heard it before, are astonishing and attention should be paid. People are recognizing it now, and people should pay attention.

Just from the references: (But any good reference will do)
(I already posted, Scientific American Article
(http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... lear-waste
But following gives fairly good data)

Radioactive Elements in Coal and Fly Ash:
Abundance, Forms, and Environmental Significance


http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html
or
USEPA award wining OSU's various papers .. such as:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~aubr ... PTSu03.pdf
(This talks about, Proliferation of nuclear weapons through use of coalfired electricity?)



First, the numbers for a 1 GW in coal plant on average (in US) a year
4.7 Tons U (Good enough to get 2 nuclear bombs per year from U235)
11.6 Tons of Th

(727 tonnes of uranium and 1788 tonnes of thorium per year for US - see ref above)

(These numbers are consistent with what I posted before)

A good story, recent from prestigious CBS - 60 minutes, is worth paying attention to:
Where it talks about a "spill" which got almost no publicity ... a spill which was 100 times larger than the Exxon Valdez and it was all coal ash.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/ ... 6202.shtml

Please do read and watch the story.. worth your while..The coal ash is in hundreds of millions of tons per year...!

Unlike Busby's idiotic nonsense this is something one should pay attention to.

BTW:

China for example is actually trying to extract U from coal ash --
Here is a 3 year old news:
Sparton produces first yellowcake from Chinese coal ash

and a year later:
Sparton readies for uranium production from Chinese coal ash

Google search (coal ash uranium extraction etc) will give quite a bit of interesting results...

At present, USA considers proliferation threats form coal ash some what seriously.. (Not so much as some one stealing coal ash from here but other countries can have programs which extract U from coal ash and it can go unnoticed)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Honestly this radiation in coal business is a shill.
Agree with that. 9.7x10^13 Bq (radioactive stuff from coal plants in a yr according to previously posted references)...comes to about about (upper value) 0.1 mSV/year not more than a banana per day or so. (It may be 100x nuclear plant but still negligible, unless one believes in Einsteins like Busby (Sorry, I know there are Busby worshipers here in BRF but I believe no reputable physicist will give him any credit) .

Even taking the most scary model the deaths due to radioactivity from coal plant's is of the order of 0.01 deaths per GW per year...

What is really measurable are chemicals in the coal ash.. and deaths due to these.. According to studies (see one reference I gave before, but you may take *any* reputable study.. results are in the same range)

Deaths due to Arsenic - 10
Cd - 20
Chromium - 7
(All per GW per year)
Total about 50 per year (depending on the study you choose to believe, it is between 25-50).. with about 50,000+ respiratory problems.

Of course, this pales in comparison to long term environment damage..
The very fact you bring it up demonstrates bad faith.
Disagree with that. I think bad faith is obfuscation of this thread and facts by, among other things, throwing insults on Indian scientist, faking scientific facts, worshiping worthies like Bushy and never setting record straight about "dead man walking" .. and scaring people ityadi ...ityadi..
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

]Here is another interesting read (From spartonres.ca)
From:http://www.spartonres.ca/uraniumsecondary.htm
URANIUM SECONDARY RECOVERY

Developing Uranium Production from Radioactive Waste

Sparton’s Secondary Uranium Recovery Program is designed to provide a highly needed source of uranium for several countries including China , while at the same time removing a significant environmental health hazard.

In China, the Company has established a sound working relationship with the China National Nuclear Corporation. Through its years of diligent work, the company has a solid track record of operating successfully in China . In early 2007, Sparton announced the signing of an agreement with the Xiaolongtang Guodian Power Company of Yunnan, People's Republic of China for a three-phase program to test and possibly commercialize the extraction of uranium from waste coal ash at the company's thermal power stations in central Yunnan province.

The Xiaolongtang, Dalongtang and the Kaiyuan stations, all located within 20 km of each other burn coal from a centrally located open pit lignite coal mine that contains anomalously high uranium content. The plants are located approximately 250 km southeast of the Yunnan provincial capital of Kunming.

This coal has a high ash content (approximately 20-30%), and the coal uranium content varies from about 20-315 parts per million (ppm) and averages about 65 ppm. Both the bottom ash and fly ash samples tested by Sparton contain approximately 0.46 pounds of U3O8 per tonne. These analyses were done in China and Canada and verified by the Company's consulting engineering firm, Lyntek Inc. of Denver, Colorado, USA. Lyntek specializes in uranium extraction process engineering and has been involved in over 30 recovery projects in 10 different countries.

For an overview of Sparton's Secondary uranium Program, click here to view a presentation

<snip>
The Company has been named the 2010 Best Clean Technology Company - Asia by World Finance Magazine.
Negi saab et al - Hope this helps
To gentle readers, I ask you to read the paper I mentioned before (It is not large, and has links to other resources). There are a few things which may be new to you. Check it out with other references too (and read it critically)
The link again is:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~aubr ... PTSu03.pdf

For skeptics, good links, start with this old paper: (Coal Combustion)
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev ... lmain.html
or Nuclear Materials from Coal
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev ... side1.html
(All papers fairly easy read.. (Orln, btw stands for Oak Ridge National Lab where U235 for Manhattan Project was produced)
arnab
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by arnab »

BTW the UPA govt has brought out its Peepuls Report 2011 :) Apart from the usual political spiel and assorted BS, this stuff in the nuke energy area (page 44) caught my eye:
At the Compact Reprocessing facility
for advanced fuels in lead cells at Kalpakkam,
the spent fuel subassembly from Fast
Breeder Test Reactor was reprocessed and
the fissile material was re-fabricated as fuel
and loaded back into the reactor. This marked
the successful closing of the fast reactor fuel
cycle
.
http://pmindia.nic.in/upa_english_22.05.11.pdf


I guess congratulations are in order :)
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

China (and India) keeps moving ahead on nuke energy plans - China of course is the big daddy..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 0CJ250.DTL

An interesting blog article on the topic..
http://theenergycollective.com/dan-yurm ... r-industry

Especially, I liked this comment by Putin..
Last November Russian premier Vladmir Putin asked German business groups whether they planned to invest in Siberian firewood for energy since they don't like nuclear reactors or the prospect of being reliant on Russian natural gas.
:)
Also read the section on beads and blackberries!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

arnab wrote:I guess congratulations are in order
Yes, though guarded..This is a lab theoretical proof of concept...Commercialisation is the big deal, and thats where DAE has been traditionally weak..
Gerard
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Firewood!
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ Slightly OT but hearing about Putin, Merkel etc.. reminded of this story
funny story about Putin, Merkel
GuruPrabhu
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

somnath wrote:
arnab wrote:I guess congratulations are in order
Yes, though guarded..This is a lab theoretical proof of concept...Commercialisation is the big deal, and thats where DAE has been traditionally weak..
Yes, but this the new era! Private cos may not be operators but nothing stops them from being re-processors. I expect Reliance, L&T types to take over fuel handling and making it commercial.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Private cos may not be operators but nothing stops them from being re-processors. I expect Reliance, L&T types to take over fuel handling and making it commercial.
How do you separate the functions, ie fuel handling from the operator?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by GuruPrabhu »

I may be naive, but fuel reprocessing is a distinctly different business from operating an NPP.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

somnath wrote: An interesting blog article on the topic..
http://theenergycollective.com/dan-yurm ... r-industry
This blog is very interesting. I know folks here have read it but can't resist posting the bit about Germany. So much for Germany walking into a solar future.
Shortly after the extent of the damage to reactors at Fukushima became apparent, German Chancellor Angela Merkel announced she was reversing her policy of keeping the nation's oldest reactors open beyond 2020. A deal put in place by her predecessor called for the eventually closure of all 17 reactors.

Looking at the issue of energy security, and especially the unhappy prospect of being more dependent on Russian natural gas, in September 2009 Merkel swung for the fences and bet her election chances on keeping the reactors open. Her conservative coalition won by a slim margin. The German Social Democrats and German Green Party vowed a political comeback and they have started to make their influence felt in regional elections.

Even so Merkel's panicky retreat from her decision to keep the reactors open is tempered by the fact that the closure of the seven oldest units is positioned as a "safety review," and not a permanent action. Anti-nuclear forces in Germany want all 17 reactors closed immediately and permanently, but business groups that represent the export driven manufacturing sector of Germany's economy have called such actions "irresponsible" and a form of "energy suicide."

Last November Russian premier Vladmir Putin asked German business groups whether they planned to invest in Siberian firewood for energy since they don't like nuclear reactors or the prospect of being reliant on Russian natural gas.

Merkel may find that keeping the lights and the factory assembly lines humming, a key jobs issue, may be persuasive when the next national election comes around. The delusional vision of solar energy and wind power being positioned as a substitute for the reactors can only lead to one outcome. It is a situation worse that the situation that South Africa finds itself in with brownouts, an inability to raise electricity rates for new generating capacity due to social welfare spending, and overall politically intractable gridlock.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

GuruPrabhu wrote:Yes, but this the new era! Private cos may not be operators but nothing stops them from being re-processors. I expect Reliance, L&T types to take over fuel handling and making it commercial.
GP,

I'm sure that the sheer economic logic of it all will ensure that Pvt giants like L&T, Reliance and Tata Power will enter the nuclear business - my guess by the second half of this decade.

Apart from engineering expertise, best practices and other stuff which these companies have one other factor in their favour is the capacity to raise oodles of capital. That could be the factor which ensures that the ban on Pvt operators goes once we are well on our way with a few giant nuclear plants running around the country.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

^^^^

Angela Merkel is delusional eh? Running down of renewable? More doomsday. "Buy today for 100% discount" offers!!

The nuclear industry appears to be very desperate going by their labeling Angela Merkel as delusional, they probably know that they are gone for good from Germany (despite the semantics about closure vs safety reviews) and are pulling out all the stops in the vain hope that the flailing around will probably hit a soft spot some where and get them back in business.

Not going to work.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by somnath »

GuruPrabhu wrote:I may be naive, but fuel reprocessing is a distinctly different business from operating an NPP.
Maybe I am missing something, but fuel reprocessing would typically happen within the reactor complex isnt it? I know there have been instances of spent fuel rods transported out and reprocessed, in the Indian context, would it be feasible?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Neela »

Folks,
Birdies from a locality near Mumbai and Chennai will be staying at my place for 36 hours this weekend. If you have any questions on 3-stage programme, please post them here.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ashkrishna »

Have any BRFites read the book : Making of the Indian Atomic Bomb: Science, Secrecy and the Postcolonial State - by Itty Abraham?

Some interesting morsels on the initial stages of the nuclear program and about Homi Bhabha
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Sanku »

ashkrishna wrote: Some interesting morsels on the initial stages of the nuclear program and about Homi Bhabha
Please share.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by merlin »

Neela wrote:Folks,
Birdies from a locality near Mumbai and Chennai will be staying at my place for 36 hours this weekend. If you have any questions on 3-stage programme, please post them here.
Where is AWHR? At what stage? Design reviews completed? Site selected? When is the ground breaking? When is projected completion date?
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Sanku wrote:^^^^

Angela Merkel is delusional eh? Running down of renewable? More doomsday. "Buy today for 100% discount" offers!!

The nuclear industry appears to be very desperate going by their labeling Angela Merkel as delusional, they probably know that they are gone for good from Germany (despite the semantics about closure vs safety reviews) and are pulling out all the stops in the vain hope that the flailing around will probably hit a soft spot some where and get them back in business.

Not going to work.
See ultimately they pin their hopes on fear of Dogs.
In fact one worthy member has brought dogs into discussion and now its raining all dogs.
You forgot to mention Japan which is as good as closed its door to NE.

Meanwhile all your predictions about japan NE disaster case true. Plant 1,2,3 all suffered meltdown.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/nati ... down-tepco
Software simulation analysis from USA researchers indicted meltdown within 3.5 hrs of stopping of cooling functions.
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/201 ... 9000c.html

One of the Japanese tech institution is already talking about other NPP's vulnerability to quake in the wake of Hamaoka NPP closure. Dubious labour practices are also being questioned in this highly advanced corporatised Industry.

Workers are being investigated for internal exposures and prefectures are planning to do the same for residents.
Monitoring and measurement facilities are absent as per reports
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110518006065.htm
http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuch ... west-rungs
While radioactive waste water disposal remains a problem and their capacity to hold is running out fast.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ ... 524a1.html

Yet we are asked to repose our faith in such fragile and dubious practices.
USA has not constructed any single NPP , few are in pipeline and their future looks certain. waste disposal remains a problem. Meanwhile all thermal plants which suffered damages in FUK-D tsunami and quake are back online and residents only fear radiation from NPP and not from japanese Thermal plants which emit near zero particulate matter(99.99% clean) unlike inefficient USA or even Indian plants. TEPCO plant which are now close need hundreds of MW electricity just to keep it in shutdown condition, most of it from thermal and some from Wind power .

It is told that China is front runner and so India should catch up. Since when China became our role model , I am unaware of it.

Of course , we are told not to draw any lessons from Fukushima and yet that will prove to be undoing of NE industry.The problem is that there are reports that safety and environmental issues have not been studied in detail, let alone consent of local people be obtained.

Afterall, energy mix in India does not envisage 100% NE power even going by optimistic projections upto 2050. Other sources have lions share and will remain so despite protestations.
Last edited by chaanakya on 24 May 2011 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
Neela
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by Neela »

merlin wrote:
Neela wrote:Folks,
Birdies from a locality near Mumbai and Chennai will be staying at my place for 36 hours this weekend. If you have any questions on 3-stage programme, please post them here.
Where is AWHR? At what stage? Design reviews completed? Site selected? When is the ground breaking? When is projected completion date?
Merlin,
Dont want to be sounding condescending but I think it is too early to talk of completion date.

Please refer to the quoted para from here:
http://www.adrianforbass.com/pages/poli ... horium.htm
This is because the spent blanket fuel from a thorium fuel cycle would contain uranium-232, which over time decays into isotopes that emit high-energy gamma rays. To extract the plutonium from this spent fuel would require significantly more radiation shielding plus additional remotely operated equipment in order to reprocess it for weapons use, making a daunting task even more difficult. It would also be more complicated to separate the fissionable U-233 from uranium- 238, because of the highly radioactive products present.
While the context is different, the issues highlighted remain in the power sector. Seen as major hurdles.

Hopefully some masala dosas for travel-weary desis should bring some cheer and some juicy info.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by amit »

chaanakya wrote:It is told that China is front runner and so India should catch up. Since when China became our role model , I am unaware of it.

Of course , we are told not to draw any lessons from Fukushima and yet that will prove to be undoing of NE industry.The problem is that there are reports that safety and environmental issues have not been studied in detail, let alone consent of local people be obtained.

Afterall, energy mix in India does not envisage 100% NE power even going by optimistic projections upto 2050. Other sources have lions share and will remain so despite protestations.
So Chaanakya, based on what you have researched on Fukushima and based on your claim that the Japanese have closed their doors on nuclear power and the Germans are well on their way of doing the same, what are the lessons for India, according to you? Should India not build any more nuclear power plants and close existing ones?

This should be simple for you to answer, na? If you don't give a clear answer, don't blame others for drawing appropriate conclusions.

Wailing and chest beating about Fukushima without saying what it means for India has already hit the law of diminishing returns.
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by ashkrishna »

@sanku :

I havent finished the entire book, but, here are a few points:

1) The Indian nuclear program though (initially) admittedly civilian in nature with the setting up of the AEC, was nonetheless shrouded in secrecy. This may be construed as an indication that the objectives of the nuclear program weren't entirely peaceful (something which JLN admitted , albeit in an obtuse manner).

2) The powers vested in the AEC and the immunity from interference that was guaranteed to it may have reasons that aren't strategic or national-security based. Homi Bhabha may have desired complete autonomy over the atomic sector and associated research and the absence competition from other civilian institutions engaged in the same effort. There is an interesting argument regarding the presence of two separate scientific axes in the Indian Establishment during the formative years of the nuclear program - The Kolkata-Allahabad (Saha and Bose) axis and the bangalore axis (Bhabha). Saha may have felt slighted at the fact the JLN handed bhabha control of India's atomic future and thus vigorously contested the secrecy of the atomic program. The bangalore axis finally won.

3) The AEC had specifically offered to barter monazite sands in exchange for reactor designs. Control over export of strategic minerals rested with the AEC and Bhabha was using it in negotiations with other canada, UK, France , Khan et.al.

4) Most importantly, the shift in focus from building power reactors to building bombs seems to have occured because the AEC believed that it had failed in its primary objective (a tad unrealistic) of self reliance and indigenisation in nuclear power. The AEC was fast losing support and needed a new support base......
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Re: India Nuclear News And Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

amit wrote: So Chaanakya, based on what you have researched on Fukushima and based on your claim that the Japanese have closed their doors on nuclear power and the Germans are well on their way of doing the same, what are the lessons for India, according to you? Should India not build any more nuclear power plants and close existing ones?

This should be simple for you to answer, na? If you don't give a clear answer, don't blame others for drawing appropriate conclusions.

Wailing and chest beating about Fukushima without saying what it means for India has already hit the law of diminishing returns.
Its not my claim, its well reported here and in Newspapers.

Ohh since when you bothered about lessons ? You should have read posts before even posing questions. Better still ., my read first post on this. Of course , selective reading and imposing ideas on others is a fav pasttime .

This response itself shows the general attitude of NPP sector.
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