People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 May 2011 07:59

The rapid rise of China’s research quality - May 11, 2011

Science constantly brings changes to the world, but the scientific world is currently undergoing one of the biggest changes in history. China has emerged as a ‘powerhouse’ of scientific research in recent years. In terms of quantity, China is now second only to the United States in the number of scientific research papers the country produces — but what about quality?

The Nature Publishing Index 2010 China, published today, details a dramatic rise in the quality of research being produced by China. Published as a supplement to Nature, the 2010 Index for China ranks research institutions and cities in mainland China. The ranking is based on outputs in Nature research journals in 2010 with comparative data for 2009. The supplement also presents data from other leading journals — Science, Cell, NEJM and The Lancet — showing a similar rise in quality from China.

The numbers of papers from China published in Nature research journals has risen from just six in 2000 to 149 in 2010. The number of papers from China published in the four leading journals mentioned above has also risen from a combined total of 3 papers in 2000 to 27 in 2010 (only papers with more than 50% of authors from China were counted in this analysis).

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 May 2011 09:53

Bomb Rips Through China Bank

BEIJING—A gasoline bomb exploded at a rural bank office in northwestern China's Gansu province Friday morning, causing several injuries, the state-run Xinhua news agency reported, citing witnesses.

Xinhua didn't immediately provide any motive for the apparent attack, which it said occurred when "someone ignited a gasoline bomb" around 9 a.m. local time at an "internal meeting" in the rural bank in a heavily ethnic-Tibetan area of Gansu.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 14 May 2011 08:55

China fears a Jasmine Revolution

An estimated 10,000 people showed up, barricades were overturned, police let fly with pepper spray, injuring an 8-year-old, and more than 110 people were rounded up and arrested

But beneath that surface, there's trouble brewing: a public housing crisis, a core of frustrated youth, a growing gap between rich and poor and the ceding of ever more power to Beijing have all sent temperatures rising here.

Worse, from Beijing's point of view, some protestors were carrying jasmine flowers and tried to plant them at the door of government offices.
Jasmine is the potent symbol of riots rocking authoritarian governments across North Africa and the Middle East.
Beijing is terrified that something similar could happen in China and those fears, coupled with tensions about the approaching transition of power, have triggered the biggest crackdown against rights activists in China since 1989.
So far the government has successfully blocked attempts to mount jasmine-style protests on the mainland.

The People's Liberation Army units that replaced the British garrison at the 1997 handover have never moved out of their barracks and perhaps never will .

Inspired no doubt by Xi's call for intensified “youth work,” Hong Kong authorities announced a new “national education” program that will likely be introduced into Hong Kong's schools next year, aimed at promoting Chinese patriotism among Hong Kong children.
The program will be compulsory.
Lau worries it will amount to “brainwashing.”
It's not a worry without foundation. After all, mainland children do not learn the truth of what happened at Tiananmen Square in 1989, the nightmare of the Cultural Revolution, nor Mao Zedong's mismanagement of the Great Leap Forward that resulted in tens of millions of Chinese deaths.

Studies show that between 1.2 million and 1.5 million of Hong Kong's 7 million people could also leave “immediately,” with guaranteed entry to other countries.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 18 May 2011 05:54

Peking University's ambitious programme to train more than 60 Chinese students in Sanskrit:

The avowed objective of this newfound love for Sanskrit is to create a team of researchers to translate hundreds of manuscripts that have been found in Tibet and other centres of Buddhism in China. But the political imperative of the communist regime’s need to boost its acceptance among the Buddhists, who account for 21 to 30 per cent of China’s population, cannot be missed. Especially at a time when their tallest leader, the Dalai Lama, has announced his retirement from public life. As if to underline the message, China’s official news agency Xinhua reported last week that the remains of the legendary Hiuen Tsang will now be available for public worship.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 18 May 2011 09:15

Exploding melons hit China after chemical overdose

BEIJING: Watermelons have been bursting by the score in eastern China after farmers gave them overdoses of growth chemicals during wet weather , creating fields of "land mines' ' instead of the bounty of fruit they wanted.

About 20 farmers around Danyang city in Jiangsu province were affected, losing up to 115 acres (45 hectares) of melon, China Central Television said in an investigative report . Prices over the past year prompted many farmers to jump into the watermelon market. All of those with exploding melons apparently were first-time users of the growth accelerator forchlorfenuron , though it has been widely available for some time, CCTV said.

The farmers used it during an overly rainy period and put it on too late in the season, causing the melons to burst open, CCTV said, citing agricultural experts. Chinese regulations don't forbid the drug, and it is allowed. But the report underscores how farmers in China are abusing both legal and illegal chemicals, with many farms misusing pesticides and fertilizers.

Intact watermelons were being sold at a wholesale market in Shanghai, but even those showed telltale signs of forchlorfenuron use: fibrous, misshapen fruit with white instead of black seeds

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 18 May 2011 09:33

^^^ From exploding mangos to exploding melons...Porkis & their taller than mountain friends are something

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 May 2011 23:00

One of the most controversial acts of PLA happens against a prominent artist and all we have is one article in Tehelka.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp ... 411LET.asp

China has been 20 years ahead of India in contemporary art. Some fantastic artists have come out of there. Weiwei has not only been a great Chinese artist, but is also a respectable international artist. When they needed his endorsement for the Olympics, the Chinese government used his talent as a consultant for the Bird’s Nest stadium. This is a contradiction. Weiwei has also been beaten by the Chinese police. In Germany, he spent many days in hospital. In spite of being an international figure, he chose to stay in his country.

Phew....this sounds so like rhona-dhona from the PLA thread!! Other than Weiwei (whose fame was more about his activism), I cant remember anyone else who caught the imagination of the world. Japan is a another totally different story. Substitute Japan in that bolded sentence and that statement is true upto a sense (if art is equated with say scientific knowledge)

India, on the other hand, has very little support for contemporary art. China has a far larger number of contemporary artists and museums. There is now finally the Kiran Nadar Museum, and it’s a great beginning. It creates a climate that encourages more and more of contemporary art. The new wing of National Gallery of Modern Art is worse than a shopping mall. There are no curators and no major events are happening there. Nobody is thinking seriously about running it and I’m not sure why people who don’t know about art are put in charge of running it. The government doesn’t take help from the private sector. And this hurts our contemporary art. We don’t reach people who don’t already know about art.

India always has provided tremendous support for contemporary art. The money, as in Bollywood till recently, was not high. But people from Jamini Roy's time was always well received. But the rest of his statements are true. The segment that tries to understand aesthetics in a serious way is very low amongst Indian public.

We have signed a petition for Weiwei and written to the Chinese culture ministry. We are in the same boat as him and we have a big fight ahead of us.

No you are not!! if you have a good event-manager, you get free publicity from loony-right and that publicity helps you achieve fame in India and the coveted "India's controversial artist" tag in the west. Yeah, IT dept might ask questions if you claim you are a "starving artist", but seen always with a martini in hand in your Mumbai sea-facing flat. But GoI does not gulag you up!

The author's basic question I agree with - where is the support for Weiwei, that an MF Hussain or any others in India who p0rno-rip gods of all religions? But his reason for that (lack of support for contemp art) I do not agree. No, this lack of support has not got anything to do with lesser appreciation of a Pollock by aam Indian. The support swell has to start from his fellow artists themselves. Unfortunately, they all seem to be brainwashed, unlike him.

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 23 May 2011 15:22

While Pakis are dealing (or not) with self-made problems, taller-than-mountains-deeper-than-oceans friend is also dealing with self inflicted wounds ... only at a much larger scale ...

China finally admits massive dam problems

CHINA HAS finally conceded that there are massive problems with the colossal Three Gorges Dam, the world’s largest hydroelectric project.

<snip>

The statement from the cabinet stuck to the usual upbeat line about the dam, stressing the important role it had played in shipping and efficient use of water resources, and in stopping flooding and generating power.

The government also agreed efforts were needed to urgently solve problems concerning environmental protection, geological disaster prevention, and the wellbeing of relocated residents.

<snip>

Environmentalists have warned for years the reservoir could turn into a cesspool of raw sewage and industrial chemicals backing onto nearby Chongqing city, and feared silt behind the dam could cause erosion downstream. China has made scant progress on schemes drawn up a decade ago to limit pollution in and around the reservoir.

Last year, heavy rains washed huge quantities of rubbish and debris into the river, forming a slick of garbage that in parts was solid enough to walk on.

But just like the Pakis they too believe in repeating the same mistake over and over again .. As Brahma Chellaney posts in twitter ...

China acknowledges that its Three Gorges Dam faces "urgent problems," yet it plans to build even a larger dam at Motuo, on the India border

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 24 May 2011 17:24

An informative lecture on China, how the Communist Party have controlled its people till now, how the people - government views outside world, challenges that Chinese government faces due to telecom revolution etc. The speaker mentions how general public does not trust government when it comes to internal(corruption) issues, but trusts the same government in international issues.

How China views the world
Linda Jakobson

Summary: How do China’s leaders and political elites view the world? What kind of an international role would they like China to assume? At our Food for Thought on Friday 29 April, the new Director of the Lowy Institute’s East Asia Program, Linda Jakobson, discussed these issues.
Her presentation can be heard - seen here:

How China views the world - MP3 (20MB).
How China views the world - Video (Direct Link to video).

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 May 2011 19:16

Hitler and the Chinese Internet generation

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/ME25Ad01.html

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 May 2011 19:44

I was watching a program on the 3 Gorges dam in China. How it was started and in about 13 years they have finished it. The colossal size of it all and how they dealt with the problems that came about is amazing.

The ones who are bitching and moaning about environment etc are being silly.

This project has transformed China. Anyone who pooh poohs this effort and achievement are clueless.

China is all set to divert the entire Brahmaputra towards Tibet and make Tibetan plateau into a green state. They have the vision, the chutzpah, the technology and attitude to do it.

One of the things I noticed was, while working on the project when they had issues, they reached out to America for help and Americans helped them and worked with them achieve what they set out to do. They needed the US and went to them without any arrogance and petty minded self importance.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 May 2011 19:49

The way Pakis keep blaming India and Indians for their own inadequacy and failures, I am noticing a similar attitude towards China among some Indians.

China is busy building their country. In India, the left "Sekularists" are busy throwing hurdles and playing religious and caste politics instead of actually doing something to solve big problems and take on big development projects.

Its really depressing to see many Indians who are clueless yet seem to have the arrogance and ego to compensate for it.

The Chinese have a cultural edge to team build to solve big problems. Their attitude to sacrifice today for a future benefit is something Indians simply do not have. We Indians are unwilling to sacrifice anything unless its for us as an individual or our immediate family. We have a culture of freeloading as a society.

We are not even capable of removing a small slum without making a big drama about it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 May 2011 20:35

Manny wrote: I am noticing a similar attitude towards China among some Indians.

Where and when did you notice India blaming China for its "alleged" failures??
Any examples?

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 24 May 2011 20:37

Manny wrote:The ones who are bitching and moaning about environment etc are being silly.

You mean top chinese communists leaders are being silly

The ruling state council has issued a statement acknowledging serious flaws in the dam across the Yangtze River http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/wor ... 48559.html

Manny wrote:This project has transformed China. Anyone who pooh poohs this effort and achievement are clueless.

Transformed yes, but in a negative way which the communist cabal sitting at the top of the pyramid is now desperate to change

Manny wrote:China is all set to divert the entire Brahmaputra towards Tibet and make Tibetan plateau into a green state. They have the vision, the chutzpah, the technology and attitude to do it.

Turning barren mountains into a 'green state', more like dreams of a retard. Downstream nations wont sit quiet while their rivers are going to be drained out.

Manny wrote:One of the things I noticed was, while working on the project when they had issues, they reached out to America for help and Americans helped them and worked with them achieve what they set out to do. They needed the US and went to them without any arrogance and petty minded self importance.

Previously you mentioned china had the technology to turn tibet into a green state and now you say china begged for technology from america to build a dam.

When communists cant build a mega dam without handholding from capitalists whom will they turn to 'green' the barren Tibet

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 24 May 2011 20:52

Manny wrote:Its really depressing to see many Indians who are clueless yet seem to have the arrogance and ego to compensate for it.

Hota hai, kabhi kabhi kutte ki haadi jab halak mein paas jaaye toh aapki tarah mann mein ajeeb ajeeb si khayal aate hain. Aap kripaya karke kutte ki biryani khana bandh karein, aapki mansik samasya apne aap hi door ho jayegi

Manny wrote:The Chinese have a cultural edge to team build to solve big problems.

Like sending a million to death camps to fulfill their communist fantasies

Manny wrote:Their attitude to sacrifice today for a future benefit is something Indians simply do not have.

I wont hesitate to sacrifice you if you want so, just tell me the place you want it to be held

Manny wrote: We have a culture of freeloading as a society.

Dont describe your personal characteristics, your family wont be happy

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 24 May 2011 21:44

Manny Ji, while India may not be ideal, striving towards this ideal is not harm..China has no principles. I have lived there. It's hollow. There is fear for all those that strive towards the ideals written by Tagore below. While materialism is important it's not the end goal of all. China achieves none of the below..neither it allows it's citizens to strive towards it. The China CCP model is doomed.

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 24 May 2011 21:48

harbans wrote:Manny Ji, while India may not be ideal, striving towards this ideal is not harm..China has no principles. I have lived there. It's hollow. There is fear for all those that strive towards the ideals written by Tagore below. While materialism is important it's not the end goal of all. China achieves none of the below..neither it allows it's citizens to strive towards it. The China CCP model is doomed.

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
My father, strike the sleeping India without mercy,
so that she may awaken into such a heaven.

there, fixed it... very good post otherwise, harbans ji..

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 May 2011 21:59

Manny wrote:I was watching a program on the 3 Gorges dam in China. How it was started and in about 13 years they have finished it. The colossal size of it all and how they dealt with the problems that came about is amazing.

The ones who are bitching and moaning about environment etc are being silly.

This project has transformed China. Anyone who pooh poohs this effort and achievement are clueless.

China is all set to divert the entire Brahmaputra towards Tibet and make Tibetan plateau into a green state. They have the vision, the chutzpah, the technology and attitude to do it.

One of the things I noticed was, while working on the project when they had issues, they reached out to America for help and Americans helped them and worked with them achieve what they set out to do. They needed the US and went to them without any arrogance and petty minded self importance.

First those programmes are usually heavily edited and filtered for any "malcontents". It is not at all clear how the rehabilitation of villages and towns are going to be beneficial to those displaced, and whether their original economic systems [professions they were used to - in spite of apparent "huge" literacy and education in the rural side, jobs are still only in the cities and low-skilled or low-paid ones. They are running short of skilled labour though] will be properly transplanted. The protests are serious and widespread - it simply is not allowed to be visible to propaganda pieces.

Maybe it could be worthwhile to research on the rehabilitation of the earthquake victims in China. It would be most interesting to find out about the debt trap for the victims because of the repayments for houses "built for them by the government".

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 May 2011 22:07

Actually the program was on "Planet Green" Channel. Verizon FIOS TV Channel 668. A show showcasing about loss of local culture and historical artifacts etc because of the biggest Dam in the world project that created two huge cities of China. But I was looking at it as a small price to pay for the development of so many people. I also was amazed at the positive attitude of the local people who were losing their home about the needing to move on for the sake of the future of their children instead of holding on to the past. BTW.. those people who were losing their home were given newer sky scrapers to move into. It may not be as pretty as their old historical home but it was functional with running water and toilet. So its not like they were thrown on to the streets.

The point is, We Indians need to do bigger and better things instead of staying on the sidelines Peeing on Chinese while they are too busy doing bigger and better things.

Last month when I visited Chennai I noticed the Adayar River and the Covam river which stinks. The are planting few trees and building a small park next to a huge slum. That's like putting a lipstick on a sow! We can't even take on these small items and solve it. IT is depressing.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 May 2011 22:12

Manny wrote:The way Pakis keep blaming India and Indians for their own inadequacy and failures, I am noticing a similar attitude towards China among some Indians.

China is busy building their country. In India, the left "Sekularists" are busy throwing hurdles and playing religious and caste politics instead of actually doing something to solve big problems and take on big development projects.

Its really depressing to see many Indians who are clueless yet seem to have the arrogance and ego to compensate for it.

The Chinese have a cultural edge to team build to solve big problems. Their attitude to sacrifice today for a future benefit is something Indians simply do not have. We Indians are unwilling to sacrifice anything unless its for us as an individual or our immediate family. We have a culture of freeloading as a society.

We are not even capable of removing a small slum without making a big drama about it.

Actually many ex-empires have this habit of "sacrificing collectively" for the "future" happiness. Have you really found out anything about the real nature of this "sacrificing mentality"? you just might start with the founding of the infamous "wall" - and explore what was needed to develop this "habit" of sacrifice - and its consequences on the dynasty thats tarted it. I guess you are unfamiliar with the periodic uprisings of the peasantry, the persistent criminal networks and "bandits" who also double as resistance movements, and the continuous regeneration of an elite bureaucrat/oligarchy with a titular focal "emperor" that seeks to run the country as a private corporation - with favoured mandarins or relatives carving out riches for themselves in the areas they govern.

All of that has simply been reproduced in the present communist one-party dictatorship. Look at the party functionaries - mostly second or third generations of party apparatchiks. There you have it - an inbreeding dynastic oligarchy with some titular head and focus, where members of the gang basically carve up the country for their personal enrichment and the mandatory scraps throwing business to prevent outright uprisings. Of course an intense militarization and fusing political party with the military and the security police helps in preserving absolute power.

We do have some elements already in our country - the oligarchical/ideological/dynastic model! So are we not emulating China to a certain extent? Are you saying we need to go further and bring in the whole setup - with a one-party+military-dictatorship that organizes "habit of sacrifice" for future "happiness"?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 May 2011 22:19

Manny wrote:Actually the program was on "Planet Green" Channel. Verizon FIOS TV Channel 668. A show showcasing about loss of local culture and historical artifacts etc because of the biggest Dam in the world project that created two huge cities of China. But I was looking at it as a small price to pay for the development of so many people. I also was amazed at the positive attitude of the local people who were losing their home about the needing to move on for the sake of the future of their children instead of holding on to the past. BTW.. those people who were losing their home were given newer sky scrapers to move into. It may not be as pretty as their old historical home but it was functional with running water and toilet. So its not like they were thrown on to the streets.

The point is, We Indians need to do bigger and better things instead of staying on the sidelines Peeing on Chinese while they are too busy doing bigger and better things.

Last month when I visited Chennai I noticed the Adayar River and the Covam river which stinks. The are planting few trees and building a small park next to a huge slum. That's like putting a lipstick on a sow! We can't even take on these small items and solve it. IT is depressing.

There is a price to pay for such quick-fixes of rapid "cleaning up" of whatever is perceived to be an eye-sore. Yes we can clean this thing up and put in a model "town" somewhere else. But you have to think of scrapping democracy then, or multi-party systems, and go for one-party dictatorships with an armed camp like mobilization of the people. Russia did it, and we know what happened in the long term.

I am willing to consider it - but are you okay with the other inevitable aspects of such a dictatorship? In 20 years time you will probably see information coming out from China which will overturn this rosy picture of "voluntary mobilization" and super-fast cleansing and "development" story that is being allowed to be splashed in the media. The unraveling of it all will be even more fascinating.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 May 2011 22:23

brihaspati,

Is there another thread we can discuss this? I am thinking we maybe going OT on this PR of China thread.

India already has one party system. The left congress has ruled India 90% of the time since India's independence. We seem to suffer the worst of both worlds. The worst of a single party system and the worst of a democracy (Democracy = mob rule).

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 May 2011 22:35

harbans wrote:Manny Ji, while India may not be ideal, striving towards this ideal is not harm..China has no principles. I have lived there. It's hollow. There is fear for all those that strive towards the ideals written by Tagore below. While materialism is important it's not the end goal of all. China achieves none of the below..neither it allows it's citizens to strive towards it. The China CCP model is doomed.

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls
Where words come out from the depth of truth
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way
Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit
Where the mind is led forward by thee
Into ever-widening thought and action
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake

Harbans,

I used to believe that all along and feel good about India. But it took me a few years to come to a realization that if China eliminates or reduces poverty due to their materialism or even dictatorially they would be more moral. We Indians seem think we are moral. But its self delusional and theoretical morality to think that when we have 600 million living in abject poverty. Unless we "materialistically" or otherwise eradicate this poverty we are immoral.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 May 2011 23:20

Manny wrote:brihaspati,

Is there another thread we can discuss this? I am thinking we maybe going OT on this PR of China thread.

India already has one party system. The left congress has ruled India 90% of the time since India's independence. We seem to suffer the worst of both worlds. The worst of a single party system and the worst of a democracy (Democracy = mob rule).

Dont know - what would be most appropriate! Suggest one. If we are going to talk about relative merits of the two systems and consequences - we can perhaps do it in the RedMenace thread or strat scenarios thread [not sure though!].

Not going further OT, but the current PRC regime was founded in "mob"-rule, if you mean action by large groups of non-admin-rashtryia personnel that apparently challenges existing authority.

After the failure of the "city-based" uprising phase, Mao and ChuTeh retreated to the Chingkangshan mountains to start experimenting with Mao's fluid "base area" strategy. Here the first thing they did was to come to an understanding with the local bandits in the wilds - without whose acceptance they would not be able to pitch "tent" so to speak. This was the nucleus of later experiments on base area strategy and supposed foundations of Maoist power.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 24 May 2011 23:37

Manny Ji, once again this is not being moralist or anything. I've seen China closely from the time i used to have an armed guard take me around a small town to now quite 'free'. Last few years every month i have been to China. I have seen the development and do wish well for Chinese people in general. What revolts me the development is hollow. Even in the satellite districts of Shanghai, buildings, malls, roads are empty. ROI is nothing. People are not so rich or well off as you imagine. Grandiose projects may come to nought with the sort of displacement that is common. There is no original Chinese culture left. India is not far behind. India's GDP today is what China's was in 2004/2005.

I don't know where you get the figure for 600 million poor but i come back to India and i see massive leaps in development. I see a better lifestyle here. Free, intelligent people willing to speak their mind, discuss, argue with all the follies, fairness and good heartedness i expect in an open society. Indian democracy may not be perfect, but it is evolving perfectly. I enjoyed talking to the Taxi driver from Bihar yesterday on my way to Delhi about Bihar. I asked him about his village/ town and Nitish Kumar. I was heartened. There is a positivity i can see here that is not rooted in propaganda and rhetoric but that of sight that democracy in India is indeed going to pay dividends soon. This will be the ticket and is already a ticket for hundreds of millions out of poverty. Today India has wealth, erudition, scholarship and much more. Lets not bandy figures doled out by WHO, NGOs etc. Many have proven wrong, like the AIDS figures so bandied around by WHO a few years ago.

China's collapse is imminent unless it changes it's ways. China there's no conversation..no life. Soulless bargaining. Soulless talk. A country with no soul. If you know soul, you know China is not the place. Don't get impressed by short term gains. I remember feudals in my family and friends baying for the Emergency regime during Sanjay Gandhi's time. Ask them what was good? The best they can come up with is trains ran on time. Nothing about waiting 7 years for a scooter to get one. Authoritarian regimes love rhetoric, they love scrambling fast in a marathon. So they are ahead of the pack for a while, they get attention..all indications show at the rate they go they'll beat the WR..yet they collapse much before. And this is not a marathon also..it's much more. It's how you go about it. India messed it's economic policies for long. Now enlightened people hog the show rightfully including on these boards. Before the Ashok Mitras made economic policy, today people like our very own Suraj and Somnath ji drive economic policy. Not so in China. Have a bit more patience..this is the worst time to get depressed on India and go green on China.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 24 May 2011 23:55

Harbans saar thanks for post. It is really eye opener.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2011 00:04

The fundamental distinction between PRC and India - from my point of view - lies in the efficiency and credibility of the state in generating outcomes, whether it be HDI metrics or infrastructure and urban development. One may have a lot of issues with the procedures they use, and graft is as much a problem there as in India, but the fact remains that they can translate orders to outcomes. It can't all be attributed to 'do it, or else'; there are other non-totalitarian even developing states that execute way better too.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 May 2011 00:17

Manny wrote:
harbans wrote:Manny Ji, while India may not be ideal, striving towards this ideal is not harm..China has no principles. I have lived there. It's hollow. There is fear for all those that strive towards the ideals written by Tagore below. While materialism is important it's not the end goal of all. China achieves none of the below..neither it allows it's citizens to strive towards it. The China CCP model is doomed.

[
Harbans,

I used to believe that all along and feel good about India. But it took me a few years to come to a realization that if China eliminates or reduces poverty due to their materialism or even dictatorially they would be more moral. We Indians seem think we are moral. But its self delusional and theoretical morality to think that when we have 600 million living in abject poverty. Unless we "materialistically" or otherwise eradicate this poverty we are immoral.

Manny ji
We can also reduce poverty by killing 70MM folks in the cultural revolution/ great leap forward and instituting a one child rule (forcibly aborting 2nd kids). Reduced population means fewer mouths to feed. Within 20 years poverty will go down too and the infrastructure will match existing population.
Additionally, we can grab some neighbouring lands and distribute them free to our populations while sterilizing theirs. That will work too.
China has worked on a simple mathematics formula till a few years ago. We can adopt the same

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 May 2011 00:19

can someone please cross post Harbans's post to the good posts thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 May 2011 00:28

Harbanspaaji, tu tho yaar nikla!

Chupe huwe kahan itne din!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 May 2011 00:56

Suraj wrote:The fundamental distinction between PRC and India - from my point of view - lies in the efficiency and credibility of the state in generating outcomes, whether it be HDI metrics or infrastructure and urban development. One may have a lot of issues with the procedures they use, and graft is as much a problem there as in India, but the fact remains that they can translate orders to outcomes. It can't all be attributed to 'do it, or else'; there are other non-totalitarian even developing states that execute way better too.

But didn't they at some stage go through a "dictatorial" transition, even if brief? Dictatorial regimes break down individual existence with respect to the group - and the effects last long after the actual authoritarian is gone. Society gets used to moving like a herd - as goaded by whoever happens to be the shepherd.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 25 May 2011 00:58

harbans wrote:Manny Ji, once again this is not being moralist or anything. I've seen China closely from the time i used to have an armed guard take me around a small town to now quite 'free'. Last few years every month i have been to China. I have seen the development and do wish well for Chinese people in general. What revolts me the development is hollow. Even in the satellite districts of Shanghai, buildings, malls, roads are empty. ROI is nothing. People are not so rich or well off as you imagine. Grandiose projects may come to nought with the sort of displacement that is common. There is no original Chinese culture left. India is not far behind. India's GDP today is what China's was in 2004/2005.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 May 2011 01:07

China's GDP in 2004 was 1.93 trillion USD.
India's GDP in 2010 was 1.53 trillion USD.

We are on China's heels, being just 6-7 years behind!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2011 01:09

ashi wrote:

China GDP in 2003: $1.64 trillion
China GDP in 2004: $1.91 trillion

India GDP in 2010-11: $1.75 trillion

You would be laughing because... you just didn't look up the data, perhaps ?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 May 2011 01:35

Rsingh, Mahendra, Ramana ji thanks for the thums up..but i do genuinely see the difference and it's getting starker. I even see the difference in the cricketing crowds..IPL one can see people like us having a good time. I see people working and making money and dreaming more here. China i find people only dreaming of making money, it's as if beyond it there's no hope. Delhi itself despite the corruption has changed in the last year..neat roads, landscaping, metro's running..yes i guess all on time. There's a lot that's changed..but the change is not just material. Thats why i was saying this is not the time to get into the India-China democracy/ authoritarian debate. It's passe.

Ashi ji..from Xinhua:

China's 2004 GDP ranks 6th in world economy
(Xinhua/chinadaily.com.cn)
Updated: 2005-12-20 10:34

China on Tuesday revised its GDP in 2004 to US$1.93 trillion, which means the country has overtaken Italy to rank 6th in world economy.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/do ... 504977.htm

And i guess China's population was also 250 million more than India's that time right?

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 25 May 2011 01:46

You are comparing nominal GDP between different years. It is like compare apple to oranges, which inflation itself along the years give you a distorted picture.

By comparing current US $ value, India's GDP in 2010 is not even half of China's GDP in 2005.

Shaded cells indicate IMF staff estimates
Country Subject Descriptor Units Scale Country/Series-specific Notes 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
China Gross domestic product, current prices U.S. dollars Billions See notes for: Gross domestic product, current prices (National currency). 2,235.750 2,657.842 3,382.445 4,327.448 4,757.743 5,263.327 5,843.569 6,524.225
India Gross domestic product, current prices U.S. dollars Billions See notes for: Gross domestic product, current prices (National currency). 784.254 875.435 1,100.986 1,206.684 1,242.641 1,339.488 1,449.169 1,583.432

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 May 2011 02:00

Ashi ji, the Chinese had a base year revision in 2005. So after that there's a big leap in figures. But till 2004 it was almost same as we are now. We are not that behind materially. Plus you must consider that China has 250 million more people than India even that time. So off the cuff mentioning that India's GDP today was about the same that time is not wrong. Todays 1.8 t USD GDP for India is inflation adjusted..so the comparitive norms are same. But then if you feel happy thinking we are 20 years behind China, feel so..don't quote it as fact.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 May 2011 02:07

Add 'h' in the beginning and 'sh' at the end of our friends user name and the ROTFL at perfectly legitimate figures with legitimate links makes completes sense

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 May 2011 02:08

ashi wrote:You are comparing nominal GDP between different years. It is like compare apple to oranges, which inflation itself along the years give you a distorted picture.

By comparing current US $ value, India's GDP in 2010 is not even half of China's GDP in 2005.

Troll tactic #472854: When your argument falls flat on it's face, resort to obfuscating semantics.
Fact: the GDP China reported in 2004 is approx the same India reported as 2010-11 early estimate.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 25 May 2011 02:14

Here is the link

click click

I can tell the name calling is starting now ...