Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 16:14

Gaur wrote:^^
Have you confirmed this yourself or is it just a guess? I ask this not because Ballistic tests don't make sense but because TOI is known to have written pretty incredulous stuff in the past. So, it is not the best practice to take their articles at face value and try to justify it. Of course, if you yourself have confirmed the facts, then that is a different matter.

Thanks for the confidence. When I called, ballistic was the keyword. Wait till monday, I will get the correct picture on the nature of the tests. Unfortunately it happened between last working day of the week.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 21 May 2011 16:19

cheenum wrote:
vic wrote:It is worth noting that Astra-2 is completely different design from Astra - 1 and seems to take off from LRSAM JV project with Israel. I think that Astra will succeed one way or another
Are you sure Astra-2 and LRSAM JV are related. how are they related?

Astra MKII is designed with a dual pulse solid fueled missile. though the relativity of design parameters didnt spill off yet, but both LRSAM and Astra MKII use same conceptual dual pulse motors.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 May 2011 17:54

+ look at the design of Astra-2 and compare it with LRSAM and Astra-1

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 17:57

OFB Makes 1000 Pinaka projectiles a year requirement is five times.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 May 2011 18:31

How many Pinaka Launchers have been ordered by IA?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 May 2011 18:40

they need to test helina/atgm with targets moving from 30kmph to 80kmph at 7-10kms in a rugged ditchy terrain with terrain avoidance logic for high success rate.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 May 2011 20:33

The second test is successful and more details.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 492893.cms

Developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air missile was test-fired yesterday also to study the modifications incorporated in its main frame and flight systems.

"The missile was test-fired around 1032 hrs from the Integrated Test Range and the trial was successful," Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources said.

"The missile is on developmental stage and we are yet to check all of its performance parameters before conducting the user trials. More such tests are scheduled to take place. Necessary modifications are made after every test ," DRDO officials said in Delhi.

Every time a development test-fire takes place the missile is checked against few pre-decided coordinates and parameters which helps in improving its performance. The results are further evaluated to make it perfect, the officials added.

Yesterday, the missile was test-fired at around 0950 hours, to gauge performance of its motor, propulsion system and the configurations of the vehicle and aero-dynamics performance.

"The complete evaluation of all the parameters and coordinates may take some time as few more tests are expected," said the officials.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 May 2011 22:42

It is very normal for the design team to build couple of prototypes for test to deal with some eventuality or failure in the batch , the first test control problem perhaps a mechanical one was detected and the second test ended in successful meeting its objective , perhaps they would test more in coming days.

Unlike strategic and expensive missile like Agni where a single prototype could be built to test and many parameters tested in the trials , for less expensive system like astra ,nag ,akash they build more than one prototype and put it to test for many consecutive days.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 04:06

Santosh Pandey wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 484028.cms
TOI reports Astra's Second test is successful..

Multiple news reports talks about this successful tests, thank god, they are all not quoting verbatim that XYZ test failed, IGMDP is X years late, y thousand crores over budget.

Kudos to DRDO...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2011 04:26

relax.. test failures during test flights are actually robustness points to fix.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 May 2011 10:04

Cross posting from the Naval thread.

cheenum wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Indian navy to induct Kavach chaff launcher Mod II by 2013
Hidden in CJs article is another gem...
chackojoseph wrote: Gupta said ‘Pinaka’ rockets manufactured at Ordnance Factory at Ambajhari have been well-received by the Indian Army and the OFB currently manufactures 1000 rockets per year. The army has a demand five times higher the current capacity and OFB is considering increasing its capacity to meet the demand.
I have always been wondering "what is happening to Pinaka?", here were have and excellent system to augment the firepower of our artillery regiments by inducting a local system in good numbers. We were supposed to induct a regiment every year for the past 10 years... glad to hear that it is going on and the Ordnance factory is producing 1K rockets per year and more importantly IA wants FIVE times that number.

Added later: I just saw a Pinaka Launcher getting Re-loaded, Operators load the rockets individually in the loader, once all barrels are loaded, then the whole magazine is slid into the launcher (which will be hot after launching its load of 12 rocket).
This make reloads very fast and painless!!!

Background Info:
A battery has 6 launchers and 6 re-loader/replenishment vehicles, apart from this there are 3 dedicated rocket replenishment vehicles which carry around 120 rockets each and fetch reloads from regimental HQ.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 May 2011 18:06

When LM can sell AGM-158 with a range of around 400KM to SK, Aus etc, why is it that we are showing MTCR as the limiting factor in range(300KM) for Brahmos I and II.?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 May 2011 18:35

^^^ Same reason Unkil can sell SLBMs to UQ as well as supply many/most of the components for the "UQ" nuclear deterrent. Do as I say not as I do. India should be able to build any missile it needs without needing foreign help. We are not far from that day. Then MTCR is meaningless to us.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 May 2011 18:40

koti wrote:When LM can sell AGM-158 with a range of around 400KM to SK, Aus etc, why is it that we are showing MTCR as the limiting factor in range(300KM) for Brahmos I and II.?

You facetious little kaalu upstart! How dare you even ask. Shut up and heel.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 22 May 2011 19:18

From Livefist:
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/in ... fails.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 May 2011 19:35

And the target is Rakhi Sawant. NICE!

So two tests happened and they rectified the issue in the second test. PERFECT.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 May 2011 22:18

From Livefist. The smokeless, colored exhaust is really TFTA and exhalirating.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 15:43

Astra BVR test vehicle flown 3 times

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 19:18

Conflicting news to what I have posted.

Astra nosedives for second time

-----------------

Others like ET say that the second did not have problems.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 May 2011 19:27

Quotes from the CNN- IBN link

In further embarrassment, the test-firing of the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile ‘Astra’ ended in failure for the second day on Saturday with the missile disintegrating midair minutes after launch.

Since when do AAM fly for minutes??

The DRDO had planned three rounds in two days, but having seen two failures in two days, the authorities abruptly packed off the trial schedule for an unspecified period.

All other articles say 3 tests were conducted, huge contradiction in facts

The DRDO is claiming that it is developing an interceptor of 5,000 km range, but it has been� unsuccessful in conducting tests of a missile of 20 km range. It was not once, but twice. Had there been another trial,it would have also ended in a fiasco,”

Apples and oranges comparision. Seems to me whoever wrote this artcile has an agenda no matter what the actual facts were.

From anther link posted on the last page

Astra BVR test vehicle flown 3 times

DRDO spokesman denied that there was any failure of the tests. “We have conducted the tests and recorded the parameters. The parameters are being analysed for incorporation in future tests. It will be wrong to say that a test failed,” he said.

I think DRDO has been reasonably honest about past failures and would give an outright lie saying the failure was a sucess.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 May 2011 19:37

The issue here is that, this is "not an Astra test." This is a test vehicle whcih will lead to making of Astra.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 May 2011 21:17

Leaving only the warhead-associated top part, the entire missile broke into pieces and fell apart in the Bay of Bengal.”

A scientist associated with the test launch blamed it on ‘structural failure’ or ‘metallurgical failure’.

Ist this a serious issue? SW glitches can be understood but structural failures?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 May 2011 21:53

Several Indian missiles have had structural failures during initial trials which were subsequently solved. The designers always try to minimize weight to maximize performance, and sometimes some structures are not strong enough. Other times, unforeseen issues have occurred, eg improper control laws putting unusual stress on the missile. Its nothing to get too worked up over. Better now than later.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2011 22:10

I guess, if sdre dhoti shibberrring types visit stress testing, then they will never buy that product.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 24 May 2011 01:59

Isn't that the whole point of TESTING! To check if the design is over-optimized or has extra redundancy? In which case, failure isn't really a failure but another data point. Stupid DDM!! Missile testing isnt like making Dal Chawal (and even there i'm sure ppl don't really make the tasty stuff on their first try).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 May 2011 02:23

see, it is a habit, ddm will eat the dal chawal, and still chuck pathar on the faces of information provider.

saip · Post by **saip** » 24 May 2011 02:42

The DDM thinks unless you develop 20 km range missile you cannot develop 5000 km range missile. Thank God he is not in charge of developing the missiles or he would have started with 1 meter range, 2 meter range etc missiles before reaching 20 km range. He might have taken a hundred years but would have been thorough!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 May 2011 02:56

saip wrote:he would have started with 1 meter range, 2 meter range etc

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 24 May 2011 05:31

chackojoseph wrote:Conflicting news to what I have posted.

Astra nosedives for second time

-----------------

Others like ET say that the second did not have problems.

Chacko ji,

So far we've seen several conflicting reports:

1. Two tests were conducted, the first one failed and the second succeeded (Shiv Aroor).
2. Three tests were conducted, the first one failed and the next two succeeded (The Hindu)
3. Two tests were conducted, and both succeeded (The Economic Times)
4. Two tests were conducted, and both failed spectacularly (IBN Live)
5. Three tests were conducted, and all succeeded (FrontierIndia)

You did report in the Fronter India article that the DRDO denied any failure in the tests, saying that "We have conducted the tests and recorded the parameters. The parameters are being analysed for incorporation in future tests. It will be wrong to say that a test failed". That is a pretty ambiguous statement. Were one or more of the tests for an experimental modification or evolution of the Astra that the developers in fact expected to fail for whatever reason(s), and so the spokesman used this reason to deny a test failure? Once can speculate ad nauseam in this manner, without converging to clarity.

I guess you are the person most likely to get the truth by talking directly to your folks in the know. Any chance of this happening?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2011 05:43

Except in India, any where else a flight test date and time is a secret and the results are even more secret. India is only place that has to be public about its weapons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 05:55

ramana wrote:Except in India, any where else a flight test date and time is a secret and the results are even more secret. India is only place that has to be public about its weapons.

ramana - this reminds me of a medical joke about a mythical "nursing home" in Bangalore whose owner claimed that the had no trouble whatsoever with any bacterial contamination in the operating theaters while the best hospitals were struggling to ensure sterility in the OTs. This was causing great consternation until the real reason was discovered.

The reason that nursing home had no evidence of bacteria was that they never bothered to check. Out of sight out of mind.

When it comes to accident rates of PLAAF and PAF , failures and crashes of prototypes and of missiles - nothing negative is reported by China or Pakistan and because nothing negative is reported nobody talks about it. "Out of sight, out of mind".

As an offshoot of this - Indians are so open that they end up publicizing failures, success, events and non events. Other Indians who read about Indian failures and see no news of Chinese failures start self flagellating. Goes to show that paranoid secrecy has psy ops value of its own . Out of sight out of mind. You can do 10 tests. 9 fail, but you publicize only the successful test so that others will start browning their pants in the way the dirty nursing home owner made all other hospitals brown their pants.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 May 2011 08:55

ramana wrote:Except in India, any where else a flight test date and time is a secret and the results are even more secret. India is only place that has to be public about its weapons.

ramana, just fyi, which is that legal aspect or regulation that mandates this?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 May 2011 09:02

Hobbes wrote: That is a pretty ambiguous statement. Were one or more of the tests for an experimental modification or evolution of the Astra that the developers in fact expected to fail for whatever reason(s), and so the spokesman used this reason to deny a test failure? Once can speculate ad nauseam in this manner, without converging to clarity.

I guess you are the person most likely to get the truth by talking directly to your folks in the know. Any chance of this happening?

YOu skipped the "tech development vehicle." Let me ask you one thing. Is this a ASTRA test or a test for ASTRA? If there were 3 tests, 1) for extreme end of the side 2) the optimum end of the dise 3) the minimum end of the side.

All the 3 data collected to find out the minimum, maximum and optimum. It is fed into computers and used for simulation. All this is hypothetical. But, the point is that, we don't have such data avaliable.

Anyway, I have kept the request. If they want to tell me or some other reporter is able to get that info first, we will know the truth in some days.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 May 2011 09:18

Funny, eventhough the DRDO spokeperson has specifically denied whats in the CNN-IBN report and factual errors in it, members are still giving a lot of attention mentioned in that report.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2011 20:31

Most likely its a new version of the Astra being flight tested.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 May 2011 22:39

or a completely new A2A missile

Slurp...

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 25 May 2011 08:02

To fellow Jingos,

Got some new insights into the Indian Cruise missile developments.Both surface/sub launched and air launched.there is no point in blaming MOD for not being pro-active. Infact these new developments will shiver the dothis of chipandas.
Excellent info on laaaangggggggg( means really long) range surface launched aka mobile based CM for both conventional and nuclear attack profiles. will be able to spew the details once my chaiwallah stamps it.Pretty much will make every jingo on BR make party for the whole year.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 May 2011 08:34

jaladipc

we do not need anything till its public knowledge

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 May 2011 09:16

Jalaidpc, if something is classified, it is for a good reason, please delete your post, we do not discuss on BR.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 25 May 2011 09:16

jaladipc wrote:To fellow Jingos,

Got some new insights into the Indian Cruise missile developments.Both surface/sub launched and air launched.there is no point in blaming MOD for not being pro-active. Infact these new developments will shiver the dothis of chipandas.
Excellent info on laaaangggggggg( means really long) range surface launched aka mobile based CM for both conventional and nuclear attack profiles. will be able to spew the details once my chaiwallah stamps it.Pretty much will make every jingo on BR make party for the whole year.

after getting required permission colloborate with joseph and write an article for frontier india site and link it here, make it an web exclusive. Birathers get latest news on maal, FI gets traffic WIN WIN situation