PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 May 2011 05:40

http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/modl_pakfa.html
nice

Megh · Post by **Megh** » 26 May 2011 16:26

http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/modl_pakfa.html
nice

Wow, scratch build model T-50. Very impressive work!!!
But now "Zvezda" (Star) offers plastic model kit (~15$)

http://www.dragonmodelsusa.com/dmlusa/p ... id=ZVE7275
http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/product ... u-50-t-50/

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 May 2011 04:46

Sukhoi demonstrates PAK FA, MiG-29UPG to Indian delegation

A flight demonstration of Russia’s advanced frontline aircraft system (PAK FA) and the modernised MiG-29UPG aircraft carrier-based fighter jet was held for a delegation from India led by Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force Pradeep Vasant Naik at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in the town of Zhukovsky near Moscow on 23 May 2011. The Russian officials attending the event included Mikhail Pogosyan, the president of United Aircraft Corporation and the general director of Sukhoi Design Bureau and RAC MiG, as well as representatives of Rosoboronexport and the Russian Air Force.

Work is underway on a Russian-Indian programme to create an advanced multirole fighter on the basis of an agreement signed by the Russian and Indian governments on 18 October 2007 in Moscow as part of the seventh session of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation. The programme represents a major project in military technical cooperation between the two countries.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 May 2011 20:20

FWIW

India, Russia mulling close defence cooperation

n the course of his week-long official Russia visit, Naik watched the demonstration flight of the prototype of PAK-FA T-50 fifth generation fighter (FGFA) developed by Sukhoi at an airbase near here last Monday.

The warplane will be jointly developed and produced by the two countries under an inter-governmental agreement signed in October 2007.

Besides the common heavier platform, Russia has also agreed to jointly develop a lighter fifth generation fighter tailored to meet specific requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 May 2011 22:01

This Naik trip was no ordinary trip. For a CAS trip he seems to have been given a lot of authority to say and perhaps even negotiate a ton of stuff. Initially I placed these articles under the DDM folder. But now I am not quite that sure. This light "FGFA" is intriguing. Single or dual engined? Dual, then will it displace the AMCA? Would be nice if MoD clarified a few things for us to slepp better.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 May 2011 22:32

It is time to rehash.. a joint user group meeting to finalize after this visit to consolidate on pak-fa to amca, what it gets, new, change, and imports, and establish a clear cut scope for these projects.

it is just me, that I feel pak-fa still needs to work on his rear emissions a lot! besides the shape if rcs is a concern.

BENNY · Post by **BENNY** » 01 Jun 2011 04:34

Journal error again??

"During the talks held during the visit of an Indian military delegation to Moscow headed by the commander of the Air Force Pradeep Vasant Naik, the Russian side confirmed its readiness in conjunction with the Indians to develop a new lightweight fifth-generation fighter, which will meet the specific requirements of the Indian Air Force" - the report says Internet portal.

According to the newspaper, which refers to sources in the Indian delegation, a new light fighter will be developed on a platform other than the severe joint platform, which currently creates a promising multipurpose fighter of the fifth generation in India has received the designation FGFA.

The newspaper reminds that in December 2010, Rosoboronexport, a corporation HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and Sukhoi signed a contract to develop a sketch and technical project FGFA. This - the first of a series of documents governing the obligations of the parties at different stages of the program. Fifth-generation fighter will be developed on the basis of submitted Commander of the Indian Air Force PAK FA test was successfully carried out by "dry". Two prototypes have already carried out 60 flights, Interfax reports.

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2011/05/30/216410.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jun 2011 05:59

The "light fighter" has surfaced in quite a few reports. Does seem strange. A CAS given so much authority to say so many things.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jun 2011 06:03

Hope it does not boil down to language translation error.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jun 2011 06:35

Interestingly, long lost Igor:

Light 5th gen program remark

About the recent news: 'Besides the common heavier platform, Russia has also agreed to jointly develop a lighter fifth generation fighter tailored to meet specific requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF).' I must add some words:

1) Surviving of a fighter project is depending of an alive and progressing engine program, which it is built around. Respectively the 5th gen fighter project has to be built around a 5th gen engine already exist or in active developing.
2) Light class 5th gen fighter can be built around a 10-12 t thrust engine (if two) or a 15-18 t thrust engine (if single).
3) Only one true 5th gen engine program in the world is valid in 10-12 t thrust category: it's EJ200, but it cannot be ToTed to India for many reasons. The indigenous Kaveri engine is a promising program but it's unrealistic to expect from it 5th gen level in visible future.

Then, I think the only option to push the Indian medium 5th gen fighter program ahead and to avoid LCA-type delays is to build it around 117/type30 engine, which should be ToTed and produced in India like Al-31FN for Su-30MKI and RD-33 ser 3 for MiG-29. Time will say if they indeed discussed such possibility in Moscow.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2011 10:01

117/type30 would definitely be a fallback plan for AMCA - need a little downsized and derated given the AMCA is a lot smaller than PAKFA.
however I think the form factor of M88-4 would suit the AMCA much better and mashallah if we go Rafale, we shall already have 100s of these engines and repair/manpower for it...better plan-B imo.

plan-A kaveri-snecma had better work I hope.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 01 Jun 2011 11:22

I pray that Plan A works.

Plan B and C can be beset with price wars. I am not sure that any of our so called "partners" are as reliable as we would want them to be. (E.g. Groshkov & Shakti)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2011 11:23

they will extract a heavy for price for sure. plan-A is the only way to azaadi.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2011 11:31

If the reports of the Light FGFA are correct, then this might reperesent the lack of confidence of the IAF with the AMCA.

manum · Post by **manum** » 01 Jun 2011 12:16

NRao wrote:Interestingly, long lost Igor:

Light 5th gen program remark

About the recent news: 'Besides the common heavier platform, Russia has also agreed to jointly develop a lighter fifth generation fighter tailored to meet specific requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF).' I must add some words:

1) Surviving of a fighter project is depending of an alive and progressing engine program, which it is built around. Respectively the 5th gen fighter project has to be built around a 5th gen engine already exist or in active developing.
2) Light class 5th gen fighter can be built around a 10-12 t thrust engine (if two) or a 15-18 t thrust engine (if single).
3) Only one true 5th gen engine program in the world is valid in 10-12 t thrust category: it's EJ200, but it cannot be ToTed to India for many reasons. The indigenous Kaveri engine is a promising program but it's unrealistic to expect from it 5th gen level in visible future.

Then, I think the only option to push the Indian medium 5th gen fighter program ahead and to avoid LCA-type delays is to build it around 117/type30 engine, which should be ToTed and produced in India like Al-31FN for Su-30MKI and RD-33 ser 3 for MiG-29. Time will say if they indeed discussed such possibility in Moscow.

It just circles around Engine...if this is true then this hound is definitely looking to eat AMCA food before being allotted...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jun 2011 15:57

It just circles around Engine...if this is true then this hound is definitely looking to eat AMCA food before being allotted...

Just to be clear, that is Igor's view. Igor used to be a regular on BR till he started his own website.

This Naik trip had produced some weird topics. Why would he suggest a closer tie up with RuAF, for instance? Naik has been off-beat for sure and at times I wonder if this is his parting shot of sorts. Cannot say. Perhaps we will have to wait till he becomes a civilian. To me he seems to be one that cannot keep his mouth shut, so I expect him to blabber his mind off at some point in time .......... should not be too much after he becomes a civi.

On the lighter 5th Gen fighter too. Why would he bring up the topic? I would think the proper channel would be via MoD/HAL/ADA or the like.

This topic has gone viral within the defcom and no one in the MoD/IAF seems have refuted it so far.

Actually I am waiting for the next CAS. Seems more like a Doberman ......................

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 01 Jun 2011 17:01

NRao wrote:The "light fighter" has surfaced in quite a few reports. Does seem strange. A CAS given so much authority to say so many things.

any possible connection to Mikoyan LMFS?? it was supposed to be a single engined stealth a/c - based on Mig 1.44 project which was cancelled.

an old report of 2006, speaks about a possible indian interest based on the then perceptions and reality. things have changed now and hence the report looks very inaccurate - reading now. anyways..

http://www.ato.ru/content/migs-fifth-ge ... w-momentum

considering it is a single engined it looks highly impossible to determine if india will involve itself in 3 '5th' gen fighter programmes.

or possibly any changes now??

more links -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/lmfs.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_LMFS

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2011 17:08

Dont sweat over Light Fighter news , its highly likely this was a media rumour or something lost in translation.

Lets wait for authoritative MOD or IAF source to confirm it.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Jun 2011 17:51

Pratyush wrote:If the reports of the Light FGFA are correct, then this might reperesent the lack of confidence of the IAF with the AMCA.

Looking at the JSF and F22 whose technologies AMCA is supposed to compete with took around 2 decades and billions of dollars of investment.

I love to be optimistic here but I don'e believe in miracles.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jun 2011 18:10

That is not a good move by IAF. AMCA is already sanctioned, and DRDO must be taken into confidence for this matter. IAF-DRDO must live like a family for AMCA to work.

This is naik saab ka second salvo after the three legged cheetah! man, he is rubbing really hard now into DRDO's nightmares.

till rumor is unrumored, 'll keep this feeling till then.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2011 17:22

OEIS ( optical-electronic integrated system ) [ via flateric )

http://www.npk-spp.ru/deyatelnost/avion ... edka-.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2011 17:32

Оптико-electronic investigation
Purpose:
The continuous spherical review with formation мнемо–and videoimages of surrounding conditions;
Automatic tracking down in ИК a range of air objectives (ВЦ) and rockets;
Recognition and support ВЦ and rockets;
Formation of signs of threat;
Display ВЦ both threats on МФИ and the audiosignal system of danger;
Field of the review – area (for 6 posts);
Spectral range 3..5 microns;
Error of definition of coordinates ВЦ no more than 1.
Обнаружитель attacking rockets (ОАР)
Subsystem of tracking down of a laser irradiation (ОЛО):
The continuous spherical review;
Formation of signs of threat;
Field of the review – area (for 2 posts);
Spectral range 1..1,7 microns;
Frequency of following of impulses from 0,1 up to 100 Hz;
Error of definition of coordinates of a source of radiation - no more than 5.

from one of the online translation.. dunno how much it makes sense.

don't we miss Igor.. was he banned!?

Ryan Maguire · Post by **Ryan Maguire** » 03 Jun 2011 19:50

AMCA with Russians? Wtf.......!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2011 20:01

^^Do you have anything else to add, other than the one-liner gobar gas release?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jun 2011 20:30

^^from the LMFS pic, do they need to have the canards right next/below to the divertless inlet?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jun 2011 21:14

That MiG picture looks like a baby J-20!!!

A bloated LMFS, with canards = J-20. Of course wind tunnel testing, too.

What a crap load of muck.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2011 22:35

Thats a fan boy art work , like the many we saw before for PAK-FA

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2011 23:49

SaiK wrote: from one of the online translation.. dunno how much it makes sense.

Its is similar to what DAS is suppose to be ( call it DAS'ski

) , looks like it has IR and Video channel plus mention of track capability,support for weapons , missile warning and target tracking capability , 6 of those are needed to provide a 360 * capability. So this can provide an all passive approach.

Any ways this was seen on 1st prototype of Su-35S so they can develop it further for PAK-FA

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Jun 2011 06:03

??????????

Does India want yet another stealth fighter?

India may be working on a third stealth fighter project.

We know the Ministry of Defense has already pledged to co-develop the FGFA variant of the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA stealth fighter, and it's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is already working on designing the twin-engined advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA). That means the Indian Air Force has both heavy and medium stealth fighter projects -- similar, perhaps, in concept to the high-F-22/medium-F-35 split by the US Air Force.

Now the Indian aerospace and defence press reports Indian Air Marshall PV Naik is in talks with Russia about a lightweight stealth fighter.

It's not clear if Naik is simply discussing a stealth fighter lighter than FGFA; if so, it is perhaps an invitation for Russia to join India's ongoing AMCA project.

If Naik is really discussing a light stealth fighter with the Russians, then it could mean India is considering a stealthy replacement for the long-awaited Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA). That would give India an all-stealth fleet divided into light, medium and heavy categories.

The concept of a light stealth fighter is a tough engineering challenge. To achieve radar stealth, all fuel and munitions must be carried internally. That's possible to do in a 60,000lb-class fighter, such as the Lockheed Martin F-22, or even a 40,000lb-class fighter, such as the F-35. But it's an even bigger challenge for a manned, 20,000lb-class fighter.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jun 2011 06:42

I say if IAF is coming out public, better make it clear. Else, they don't have to say anything.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 05 Jun 2011 12:50

5th Gen 3D TVC's Don't look any stealthy to me.
[youtube]ZM_BTE8hTbY&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jun 2011 13:54

^^
That's AL-31F-M3. It's written right in the video description. Its a heavy up gradation of AL-31F (and the last one at that). These are just the engines which were partially using materials and technologies which were in development for the true fifth gen engines (namely AL-41/ Article 127). If the reports are anything to go by, then PAK-FA is currently flying with 117 (not 117S) which is a much better engine than M3.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 05 Jun 2011 16:31

^^ its not about the engine. Its about the TVC nozzle. I am confident that the Russians will come up with a good engine, but i am sure about the stealth part.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 16:38

so far no noise about being willing to lose 20% thrust in favour of a IR-stealth 2D flat nozzle.
but then their weights Su30/Su35 and engine AL31 variants have not been favourable in the way a 20t F22 chassis and 2 x 35000lb engine were. that situation might be reached for 1st time with the pakfa engine and final level of prototype.

its their choice to make. perhaps we can ask them to make a 2d nozzle for indian version?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2011 16:56

Ideal lab way to reduce IR is H20. Iff they can generate it on-board the a/c from the atmosphere, that would be awesome. And again, we don't need IR reduction all the time, so only during dog-fights perhaps [cause of IR detection range].. so generate/carry and inject spray? Also, there must be other exotic chemical substitutes (nano tech?) that does better job, russkies are supposed to be good at pure science, so..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 17:07

imho a low IR sig is essential to avoid long range detection by passive IRST sensors . I do not think low or high, its much help in evading wide-FOV IIR cooled seekers on AAMs themselves though at short range like 5km.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2011 17:29

nice, fits the bill of thoughts.. I think for next gen pak-fa, they should worry more out on the dual mode seekers - mid wave IR & Laser guided ones.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 17:31

french have rejected towed decoys on rafale. but I am sure next-gen release decoys are being worked on, as well as turreted lasers that will target inbound missile seekers in a 360 bubble.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jun 2011 17:57

That is interesting to note, why Rafale doesn't want to go for towed decoys.. something really works like the DASS/TRD/Ef. They have also not gone for retractable refuelers makes me think they have real space issues inside the fuselage for housing retractable assemblies (however they could lose the port side pod space).

pak-fa otoh, should have enough space to handle both these systems. our AMCA should follow suit of Ef2K route for towed and retractable tech.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2011 18:37

well maybe during hard movements the tow cable could snag or break off. OK for big bombers like B52/B1, maybe not so ok for fighters.
does any sher khan fighter use towed decoys?