China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2011 05:53

Gaur wrote:
This is stupidity beyond belief! Soldiers playing computer games for combat training! Sometimes Chinese really go overboard with PR stunts without even realizing how stupid they look doing it.

This is mostly psychological training where they need to visualize war against another country which they dont have any experience. The gap between the military os so huge that they need that mental image of the enemy.

Psy Ops training for a weak military is essential

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 May 2011 06:09

Gaur wrote: Man, this is really embarrassing to even watch.

You mean more embarrassing than this?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2011 07:19

flank sonars are usually seen in longish conformal type smoothly blended bands, not in holes lol

eg in this U214 imo it would be located inside that band running near the bottom
http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.d ... 8_3118.JPG

original kilo design does not have flank sonar array per this pic
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... nch_lg.jpg

unless we get a full view of Yuan in drydock cannot be said whats under the waterline.

wrt VL missiles in tubes, has to be some truly large missile of > 21" diameter or maybe a LACM type weapon which adds value and keeps the small torpedo room (around 14 weapons in kilo iirc) free for torpedoes and ASMs. the LA688I class had 8 VL tomahawk tubes but that was in main hull because the sub was large enough. so maybe it has 4-6 tubes in aft part of the big sail but these are mere pinpricks compared to what a true 6000t type n-powered SSGN with say 36 such weapons can deliver. I would say it makes the platform neither a great hunter-killer design and size limits its LACM loadout.

for cost reasons maybe the PLAN cannot build the flood of N-subs needs to wrest control of the west pacific from sher khans critters, so going Yuan and distributing the workload is the proposed workaround.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 May 2011 07:36

nope nothing beats chinese commandos or urban police commandos on Segway scooters.
That as I would say is priceless

Nothing more embarassing than that shiv

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 May 2011 08:10

Eye on India? China plans naval expansion, woos Myanmar

BEIJING: Myanmar's president Thein Sein, a former military general, is in Beijing discussing a plan to allow the Chinese navy to dock in Myanmar ports and get direct access to the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean.
Thein Sein will have to consider New Delhi's apprehensions about China's naval expansion in its neighbourhood before acceding to Beijing's request, sources said.

He was given a reception at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing by Chinese president Hu Jintao on Friday. "I know India is very suspicious about Chinese navy's role in the Myanmar area. There is no need to worry because the Chinese navy will never take a hostile approach to India or any neighbour,'' Ma Jaili, an expert at the government think-tank , the China Institute of Contemporary International Relations said.

It may be difficult for Thein Sein to refuse Beijing's request. Myanmar needs to placate China because it is seeking additional Chinese investments in the energy and infrastructure sectors that include a plan to lay a road running parallel to the ongoing oil and gas pipelines projects.

Myanmar had allowed two Chinese warships, the Guangzhou and the Chaohu, to dock at Thilawa Port near Rangoon as they were returning from a counter-piracy operation in the Indian Ocean in August 2010.

Don · Post by **Don** » 28 May 2011 08:26

shiv wrote:
Gaur wrote: Man, this is really embarrassing to even watch.
You mean more embarrassing than this?

That is hillarious but I think its just for show just like this one :

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 May 2011 08:43

Don, the critical difference is that we KNOW the latter photo is for a parade whereas the morons who ordered the Chinese segway show actually tried to pull that off with a straight face and you only THINK it was for show. Big difference.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 May 2011 08:44

Gaur wrote:Glorious Revolution: Chinese army develop first-person shooter game
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... roops.html

This is stupidity beyond belief! Soldiers playing computer games for combat training! Sometimes Chinese really go overboard with PR stunts without even realizing how stupid they look doing it.

Here is the youtube video of a PLA soldier giving television report about this "Glorious Revolution" while a class of PLA soldiers are hunched over their PCs "training". Man, this is really embarrassing to even watch.

that is exact call of duty rip off . What will they call it J - COD UO

(J Call of duty united offense) ?

Don · Post by **Don** » 28 May 2011 08:45

PratikDas wrote:Don, the critical difference is that we KNOW the latter photo is for a parade whereas the morons who ordered the Chinese segway show actually tried to pull that off with a straight face and you only THINK it was for show. Big difference.

Cool thanks for the explanation...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 May 2011 08:47

Don wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Don, the critical difference is that we KNOW the latter photo is for a parade whereas the morons who ordered the Chinese segway show actually tried to pull that off with a straight face and you only THINK it was for show. Big difference.
Cool thanks for the explanation...

You're most welcome. Please feel free to share more such photos from China for further explanations.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 May 2011 08:49

Cross-posting from the Military Humour thread:

Rahul M wrote:

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 28 May 2011 08:52

Gaur wrote:Glorious Revolution: Chinese army develop first-person shooter game
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... roops.html

Glorious Revolution, which is used as a training tool for People's Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers, pits the Chinese army against the U.S. military in a 'Call of Duty' style first person shooter.

A Chinese state media video report shows rows of PLA soldiers hunkered over computer screens as they play through missions of Glorious Revolution.
This is stupidity beyond belief! Soldiers playing computer games for combat training! Sometimes Chinese really go overboard with PR stunts without even realizing how stupid they look doing it.

Here is the youtube video of a PLA soldier giving television report about this "Glorious Revolution" while a class of PLA soldiers are hunched over their PCs "training". Man, this is really embarrassing to even watch.

Why is it embarrassing to watch PLA soldiers train with PC games. US army extensively trains with purpose built video games for combat simulation. On another note, there was an earlier recruitment drive in US army for people with nimble gaming skills for remotely manning roof mounted guns on their strykers etc. It will be embarrassing for us if Indian armed forces don't play catch up.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 May 2011 08:58

Krishnakg wrote:
Gaur wrote:Glorious Revolution: Chinese army develop first-person shooter game

Why is it embarrassing to watch PLA soldiers train with PC games. US army extensively trains with purpose built video games for combat simulation. On another note, there was an earlier recruitment drive in US army for people with nimble gaming skills for remotely manning roof mounted guns on their strykers etc. It will be embarrassing for us if Indian armed forces don't play catch up.

this game is not congruent with real life combat scenario. its just a call of duty rip off. us army uses hi tech simulators for training and recruitment purposes. having developed a silly commercial fps is indeed idiocy.

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 May 2011 09:04

catchup with what, video games on laptops with still having a straight serious face?
How dumb one can get to simulate a life like scenario on 15 inch lenovo laptop...
And forget I wont name the virtual environment situations...
Have you ever seen a simulator? What you call it a video game?
I mean from where the hell did you get this idea of playing video in army umiform as a serious thing to worry about...
I have seen dhoti shivering...here I can see langot getting loose...

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 28 May 2011 10:47

Wong, What makes you think I didn't google for it before I asked the question? Singha has already explained how the flank sonars are laid out. It will be instructive to read up on sonar performance and operation before pulling things out of your musharraf.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 May 2011 11:40

wong wrote:Sail is for vertical launch tubes.

Thats another possibility , it could have a vls launcher.

Way back in DefExpo 2004 . I saw similar arrangement proposed by Russian for Kilo with VLS Brahmos in the sail , dont recollect the exact number of tubes in the sail.

Old SU SSBN like Hotel class carried BM in their sail.

Don · Post by **Don** » 28 May 2011 12:18

Interesting info on what goings on PLA blogspot :

http://china-pla.blogspot.com/search?up ... results=15

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 28 May 2011 15:38

The Chinese Air Force Contribution to Antiaccess
Joint Force Quarterly, Vol 60, 2011

The national security strategy of China is built upon the concepts of sovereignty and territorial integrity. In defending these core national interests, People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) capabilities, doctrine, and training have been developed to support a comprehensive antiaccess/area-denial strategy. While these antiaccess capabilities cannot yet effectively counter U.S. capabilities, they have contributed to mounting U.S. concerns over China's current military modernization efforts. These concerns also facilitate misperceptions about "preemptive" Chinese military doctrine. If not clarified, dangerous miscalculations on both sides of the Pacific are possible, particularly if tensions over Taiwan are renewed.

...

Development of Antiaccess Capabilities

To execute an access-denial strategy, the PLAAF requires capabilities effectively designed to neutralize U.S. forces, bases, and sustainment infrastructure already in the region. It must also be able to prevent follow-on forces from entering the region, extend its own defensive capabilities to regional entry points, and ultimately convince the United States and its allies that the cost of entry into the region will be prohibitive. In practical terms, these capabilities include advanced and extended range air defense, air-to-air, and precision-strike capabilities. They also include command and control (C2) and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities, as well as force projection enablers such as aerial refueling, airlift, and logistic capabilities. Full development and informationization of these capabilities coupled with dominance of the electromagnetic spectrum could enable the PLAAF, in conjunction with other arms of the PLA, to hold carrier strike groups at risk, deny or disrupt regional airfields, bases, and logistic nodes, and deny airspace over or near Chinese territory or forces.

The PLAAF has chosen to deter or deny the threat of aircraft penetrating China's territory and airspace, or seizing air dominance over PLA forces, via advanced and extended range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) and fighter aircraft. Modernizing air-to-air capabilities now complement advanced Russian and indigenous SAMs. Older aircraft feature selectively improved electronics, radar, and engines, and some variants are equipped for aerial refueling, extending their combat radius and enhancing aerial access-denial options as far as the South China Sea. More modern multirole fighters also incorporate an extended combat radius, advanced avionics, aerial refueling capability, some stealth design characteristics, and data link capabilities that allow sharing of information with the KJ series Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS). These can also employ a variety of upgraded air-to-air missiles for an extended beyond-visual-range (BVR) attack capability.

While these more modern aircraft remain limited in number, they have already reversed the balance of air superiority with Taiwan. Indigenous production of these aircraft will eventually increase the expertise and capabilities of China's aviation industry.40 However, despite steadily growing numbers of aircraft with ever increasing ranges, the operational reach of these capabilities is still constrained by minimal aerial refueling training and a limited number of aerial refueling– qualified pilots and refueling-configured aircraft. If these limitations are overcome, the PLAAF's ability to hold U.S. force projection capabilities at risk at extended range would be greatly enhanced.

Evolving PLAAF precision-strike capabilities add another layer of antiaccess competencies to deter, disrupt, or deny regional bases, as well as naval surface and carrier operations. These include upgraded aircraft that can employ modern precision ordnance including anti-radiation missiles, air-launched land attack and antiship cruise missiles, and a variety of television, laser, and Global Positioning System/Global Navigation Satellite System–guided precision munitions. These last include "bunker buster" munitions that can be employed in long-range access-denial attacks on hardened targets such as aircraft shelters and command and control bunkers at regional bases beyond China's periphery (for instance, Kadena Air Base). The remainder of the PLAAF's long-range strike capability resides with its H–6 bomber and cruise missile variants, which can attack various fixed targets (including Guam) with either conventional or nuclear payloads. These capabilities give the PLAAF a significant role in strategic deterrence as well as extended range access denial.43 PLAAF capabilities are also complemented by evolving PLA Navy (PLAN) strike capabilities that allow both the PLAAF and PLAN to strike a variety of land and sea targets at extended range, potentially preventing deployment or employment of forces from these targets.44 However, while these capabilities represent significant progress for the PLAAF, China's aviation industry is still weak in the areas of aircraft engines, guidance and control systems, and enabling technologies. Also, PLAAF ability to logistically support and sustain force projection operations beyond its periphery, particularly in antiaccess scenarios that might include sustained long-range strikes or the seizure of regional bases, is limited.

A holistic approach to integration of C2 and ISR has enhanced coordination and employment of access-denial capabilities across the PLA. As noted above, informationization encompasses digital linkage of information, sensors, weapons, and automated C2 systems via common networks while denying these capabilities to opponents. The focus of PLAAF airborne early warning and ISR development has also been on increasing search range and situational awareness of regional airspace and enabling surveillance and targeting support for other extended range anti-access capabilities.

Informationization has also driven a PLAAF capability to deny access to the electromagnetic spectrum. By 2006, the Department of Defense assessed that "China's investments in advanced electronic warfare programs had given the PLAAF technological parity with or superiority over most potential adversaries."49 Seizure of electromagnetic dominance via "integrated network electronic warfare" (wangdian yitizhan) is envisioned in the initial phases of any future campaigns. This approach is conceived by PLA theorists as electronic, computer network, and kinetic strikes to "disrupt and deny network information systems that support enemy war fighting and power projection capabilities"; in other words, access denial.50 The significance of such electromagnetic antiaccess capabilities to the PLAAF is clearly demonstrated in campaign planning. To employ such capabilities effectively, PLAAF doctrine and training must integrate these and other antiaccess capabilities.

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 28 May 2011 17:43

manum wrote:catchup with what, video games on laptops with still having a straight serious face?
How dumb one can get to simulate a life like scenario on 15 inch lenovo laptop...
And forget I wont name the virtual environment situations...
Have you ever seen a simulator? What you call it a video game?
I mean from where the hell did you get this idea of playing video in army umiform as a serious thing to worry about...
I have seen dhoti shivering...here I can see langot getting loose...

Please do a simple google search before posting such comments. Nobody is talking about dhoti or langot shivering, its about virtual combat training, scenarios, battlefield situational awareness, team skills and enhancing combat reflexes. I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional. Some cursory information is available on the links below and a lot more in public domain. I suggest you read up and play some of the latest available game titles like America's Army, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Battlefield 3 just to understand what I am talking about. US or China are not dumb, we will be if we don't train our army. Indian Army is already progressing on this front albeit slowly. Please don't mix up simulators with simulation gaming.

Some links shared below, which show the seriousness of US army in video games for recruitment and training of their soldiers.

http://www.livescience.com/10022-milita ... games.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing ... es-1.85595
http://www.army.mil/article/33966/top-a ... onference/
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/us-army-ge ... ng-program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 May 2011 19:10

Krishnakg wrote:
manum wrote:catchup with what, video games on laptops with still having a straight serious face?
How dumb one can get to simulate a life like scenario on 15 inch lenovo laptop...
And forget I wont name the virtual environment situations...
Have you ever seen a simulator? What you call it a video game?
I mean from where the hell did you get this idea of playing video in army umiform as a serious thing to worry about...
I have seen dhoti shivering...here I can see langot getting loose...
Please do a simple google search before posting such comments. Nobody is talking about dhoti or langot shivering, its about virtual combat training, scenarios, battlefield situational awareness, team skills and enhancing combat reflexes. I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional. Some cursory information is available on the links below and a lot more in public domain. I suggest you read up and play some of the latest available game titles like America's Army, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Battlefield 3 just to understand what I am talking about. US or China are not dumb, we will be if we don't train our army. Indian Army is already progressing on this front albeit slowly. Please don't mix up simulators with simulation gaming.

Some links shared below, which show the seriousness of US army in video games for recruitment and training of their soldiers.

http://www.livescience.com/10022-milita ... games.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing ... es-1.85595
http://www.army.mil/article/33966/top-a ... onference/
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/us-army-ge ... ng-program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army

Oh...a professional with core competency in the subject? Even a PHD perhaps?

(Don't worry if you don't get the PHD part)
Forgive me if I don't go through the links you have posted. But I will tell you this. Whatever you may have read, American Army is not used to train US Army soldiers. American Army is a free online game for general public which was released with the sole purpose of encouraging more youngsters to join the Army. You may have read about its spinoffs used to train Army...I will come to that later. Combat simulators are very important to train people to use technology (aircrafts, MBTs etc). However, forgive me if I laugh at the idea of using them for training infantry combat and tactics.

Now to the use of videogames in US Army. They don't use games per say to train infantry. What they use is gaming technology. The game engines are build to render in real time while using least resources. So, what US military is doing is using a custom build 3D map generator. This software is a very user friendly and allows the user to quickly build a 3D replica model of a building or terrain. In short, they are using a software to build a 3D map of a place where the soldiers plan to assault. Simple as that. No COD shooting and cinematic moments. A game company called Crytec is making a lot of profit from these ventures. Now US is going one step ahead. Crytec is given another contact to make another set of simulators for Special Forces. In that, the soldier will be fitted with a small lcd screen before his eye and a laptop on his backpack. Then, the soldier will be placed in a small room and the 3D map will be displayed on his eye screen and his movements will be recorded as input. In short, all this techno wizardry is for giving the SF soldiers a feel of the terrain they intend to operate in.

So, whichever way you look at it, to think that soldiers should play Call of Duty to improve reflexes and learn infantry tactics....well only a 13 year old or a "Professional with core competency" can think like that. But since you have already established yourself as one of the above, I will not delve into that.

I am sure that you will be able to find many links to take your case further, but you would have to forgive my arrogance when I would dismiss them outright by not responding to them.

Now before Shiv Sir starts directing his piskology beam at me, let me make a few things clear (you have to be very careful around Shiv Sir

). By giving the US example, I am in no way suggesting that their current attempt to create a pseudo Virtual reality is worth emulating or not. I was merely talking about US initiative because it was suggested that there are other clowns on par with PLA. I am humbly suggesting that, in this case at least, PLA takes the crown.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 28 May 2011 20:28

Krishnakg wrote:
manum wrote:catchup with what, video games on laptops with still having a straight serious face?
How dumb one can get to simulate a life like scenario on 15 inch lenovo laptop...
And forget I wont name the virtual environment situations...
Have you ever seen a simulator? What you call it a video game?
I mean from where the hell did you get this idea of playing video in army umiform as a serious thing to worry about...
I have seen dhoti shivering...here I can see langot getting loose...
Please do a simple google search before posting such comments. Nobody is talking about dhoti or langot shivering, its about virtual combat training, scenarios, battlefield situational awareness, team skills and enhancing combat reflexes. I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional. Some cursory information is available on the links below and a lot more in public domain. I suggest you read up and play some of the latest available game titles like America's Army, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Battlefield 3 just to understand what I am talking about. US or China are not dumb, we will be if we don't train our army. Indian Army is already progressing on this front albeit slowly. Please don't mix up simulators with simulation gaming.

Well if that was so true then I would have been eligible for direct entry into TIER 1 spec ops of any nation. Good thing that only Chinkis have the core competencies that you possess.

Having said that, video games do teach some tactics like aim before fire (instead of firing from hip), using smoke, flanking etc.. But hey while all that was news for a civilian like me, it would be part of Military 101 course in any half decent Academy.

Again looking at that video, there are two basic flaws a) They all have aiming reticules on the screen and are firing from hip. If this is the training imparted to Chinki troops then that is good for us.

I have been playing games for some year (all COD, MOH and then some). But still when i went to shoot an actual gun (only a .22 shooting rifle) I had trouble hitting the bulls eye. Surprising when i can take a head shot with a stupid PKM from across the map. Plus my performance and my friends (with no gaming experience) performance was not substantially different.

When you mention games like COD:MW2 (ranbo style spray and pray game) or BF3 (still rambo type but not yet released !!) i can judge the strength of your core competencies as well as professionalism. There are games like Op Flashpoint which are much more tactical and realistic than any of the games that you mentioned and still will be way easier and different than any actual combat can get.

P.S. The following link shows the different technique used by a gamer and a SAS veteran while going through the same map of MW2. The SAS fellow did it in a full scale actual model while gamer did it online.

http://www.mw2blog.com/the-gadget-show- ... nge-video/

Plus one another link: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/us-army-mod ... -6238.html

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 May 2011 21:32

Krishnakg wrote:
manum wrote:catchup with what, video games on laptops with still having a straight serious face?
How dumb one can get to simulate a life like scenario on 15 inch lenovo laptop...
And forget I wont name the virtual environment situations...
Have you ever seen a simulator? What you call it a video game?
I mean from where the hell did you get this idea of playing video in army umiform as a serious thing to worry about...
I have seen dhoti shivering...here I can see langot getting loose...
Please do a simple google search before posting such comments. Nobody is talking about dhoti or langot shivering, its about virtual combat training, scenarios, battlefield situational awareness, team skills and enhancing combat reflexes. I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional. Some cursory information is available on the links below and a lot more in public domain. I suggest you read up and play some of the latest available game titles like America's Army, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Battlefield 3 just to understand what I am talking about. US or China are not dumb, we will be if we don't train our army. Indian Army is already progressing on this front albeit slowly. Please don't mix up simulators with simulation gaming.

Some links shared below, which show the seriousness of US army in video games for recruitment and training of their soldiers.

http://www.livescience.com/10022-milita ... games.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing ... es-1.85595
http://www.army.mil/article/33966/top-a ... onference/
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/us-army-ge ... ng-program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army

Google doesn't gives common sense...and there is no cure for lack of it...I don't care about your links...the sense you are making above is enough to tell you to tighten your langot...
I hope there are millions of Chinese replica just like you...It'll be so much fun on battle field testing those computer honed skills...

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 28 May 2011 21:57

Cross Posting

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... nomic-Zone

Three Chinese Coast Guard ships has attacked, threatened and damaged a Vietnamese Oil Surveillance Ship that was operated by the Petro Vietnam. The event happened in the lot 148, about 120 nautical miles away from Point of Dai Lanh and well within the 200 nautical miles EEZ of Vietnam. The action started at around 5 a.m and end around 9 a.m when three Chinese Coast Guard ship left the lot. The Chinese Coast Guards claimed that the Vietnamese Surveillance Ship is operating within its EEZ and it cut off surveillance cable planted by the Vietnamese ship in the area. Three Chinese Coast Guard Ships no. 12, 17 and 84.

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 29 May 2011 01:23

Gaur wrote:
Krishnakg wrote: Please do a simple google search before posting such comments. Nobody is talking about dhoti or langot shivering, its about virtual combat training, scenarios, battlefield situational awareness, team skills and enhancing combat reflexes. I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional. Some cursory information is available on the links below and a lot more in public domain. I suggest you read up and play some of the latest available game titles like America's Army, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Battlefield 3 just to understand what I am talking about. US or China are not dumb, we will be if we don't train our army. Indian Army is already progressing on this front albeit slowly. Please don't mix up simulators with simulation gaming.

Some links shared below, which show the seriousness of US army in video games for recruitment and training of their soldiers.

http://www.livescience.com/10022-milita ... games.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing ... es-1.85595
http://www.army.mil/article/33966/top-a ... onference/
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/us-army-ge ... ng-program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army
Oh...a professional with core competency in the subject? Even a PHD perhaps? (Don't worry if you don't get the PHD part)
Forgive me if I don't go through the links you have posted. But I will tell you this. Whatever you may have read, American Army is not used to train US Army soldiers. American Army is a free online game for general public which was released with the sole purpose of encouraging more youngsters to join the Army. You may have read about its spinoffs used to train Army...I will come to that later. Combat simulators are very important to train people to use technology (aircrafts, MBTs etc). However, forgive me if I laugh at the idea of using them for training infantry combat and tactics.

Now to the use of videogames in US Army. They don't use games per say to train infantry. What they use is gaming technology. The game engines are build to render in real time while using least resources. So, what US military is doing is using a custom build 3D map generator. This software is a very user friendly and allows the user to quickly build a 3D replica model of a building or terrain. In short, they are using a software to build a 3D map of a place where the soldiers plan to assault. Simple as that. No COD shooting and cinematic moments. A game company called Crytec is making a lot of profit from these ventures. Now US is going one step ahead. Crytec is given another contact to make another set of simulators for Special Forces. In that, the soldier will be fitted with a small lcd screen before his eye and a laptop on his backpack. Then, the soldier will be placed in a small room and the 3D map will be displayed on his eye screen and his movements will be recorded as input. In short, all this techno wizardry is for giving the SF soldiers a feel of the terrain they intend to operate in.

So, whichever way you look at it, to think that soldiers should play Call of Duty to improve reflexes and learn infantry tactics....well only a 13 year old or a "Professional with core competency" can think like that. But since you have already established yourself as one of the above, I will not delve into that.
I am sure that you will be able to find many links to take your case further, but you would have to forgive my arrogance when I would dismiss them outright by not responding to them.

Now before Shiv Sir starts directing his piskology beam at me, let me make a few things clear (you have to be very careful around Shiv Sir ). By giving the US example, I am in no way suggesting that their current attempt to create a pseudo Virtual reality is worth emulating or not. I was merely talking about US initiative because it was suggested that there are other clowns on par with PLA. I am humbly suggesting that, in this case at least, PLA takes the crown.

Since, you have not gone through the links and have refused to read before you comment, I think there is no point in wasting anybodies energies on this topic. It is evident that a lot of commentary in the BR Forums is from arm chair generals who are not tech savvy and with intellect level akin to "13 year olds" as you graciously pointed out. I respect your thoughts and opinion on this topic and I allow myself the same arrogance in not replying to further comments.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 May 2011 19:20

Krishnakg wrote: Some links shared below, which show the seriousness of US army in video games for recruitment and training of their soldiers.

http://www.livescience.com/10022-milita ... games.html
http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing ... es-1.85595
http://www.army.mil/article/33966/top-a ... onference/
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/us-army-ge ... ng-program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army

Please krishnakg - I have something to say about the issue and I do not disagree with you or Gaur or Manum. But I am addressing you because I believe that you have missed the point that has been made and I will try and explain.

In "modern network centric warfare" - with the increasing use of remotely operated vehicles starting from bomb disposal robots, to UAVs to UCAVs the integration of diverse sensors into one "other of battle information " scenario is definitely what the US is doing, what India is looking at and what China is advertising in that video that is being mocked.

If you look at "idealized modern network centric warfare" - you will find that the US and its allies have increasingly resorted to such "idealized modern warfare" since Kosovo. There are two caveats that must apply to anyone thinking of using such warfare. One is that this kind of warfare needs multiple sensor platforms like satellites, AWCACS, UAVs and ground sensors and multiple means of identifying and prioritizing targets and differentiating them from friendly forces. The second is that for such technolgical wizardry one needs total aerospace dominance. If either of these are missing the computer console warfare could become junk. Until today this kind of tech wizardry in warfare has worked successfully only in a situation where the US and its alllies have used it against a vastly technologically inferior foe. This has enabled them to test and validate concepts and platforms but no one has yet fought a war against a really dangerous adversary who can take out sensor assets and Command and Control assets. Once that is done warfare essentially reverts to "normal" where the consoles may be useless.

When you fight Iraq, or in Kosovo or in Afghanistan - high value assets like AWACS and satellites etc are at virtually no risk. If any country wants to defeat the US in its own game - they have to take out satellites and AWACS and bring the US forces "down" to the level of anyone else after which the standard rules of warfare apply - as we saw in Vietnam or even in Afghanistan.

As regards the Chinese - there are plenty of indications that they are trying to copy America. What the US does they do. They are really trying to show that they can hold the US at bay - and that video of soldiers playing computer games falls into that genre. There is currently no indication that the Chinese have achieved the level of sensor integration that the US has - or have the kind of global reach or coverage that the US has. But they are eager to show that they are "almost there". That is what makes it funny in a sort of sad, ironic way. The US has never successfully finished a war against asymmetric forces despite its wizardry. it dominates, intimidates, but cannot have its way. the Chinese are aspiring to do that and they are a pale copy as things stand. The US has not yet entered a "dirty war" where someone nukes the US or takes out its satellites. But people who can do that are generally not picked on by the US. Is China going to copy the US in that as well? Picking on small targets to dominate while carefully avoiding the biggies? Probably - because after a point getting into a war with a really powerful adversary affects the economy negatively and allows some other power to rise.

The Chinese are resorting to a series of symbols of a rock hard national erection and that hard on is aimed to match the US. The fanfare about aircraft carriers, stealth aircraft, 25 different UAVs and these computer games soldier boys are part of that symbolism.

manum · Post by **manum** » 29 May 2011 23:26

Krishnakg wrote:Since, you have not gone through the links and have refused to read before you comment, I think there is no point in wasting anybodies energies on this topic. It is evident that a lot of commentary in the BR Forums is from arm chair generals who are not tech savvy and with intellect level akin to "13 year olds" as you graciously pointed out. I respect your thoughts and opinion on this topic and I allow myself the same arrogance in not replying to further comments.

I would really like to know what is being tech savvy exactly? What a person should know to be called tech savvy? define it, and to keep it in context of the thread define it wrt to the 15" lenovo laptop games those chinese soldiers were having drills on...what was so tech savvy about that?
no links, define it with your own brains...your own understanding...

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 30 May 2011 02:58

Krishnakg, what would be worrying is an Amul-baby looking chinese PLAAF kernail standing outside an air-conditioned trailer (say at an AFB near Macau, with its casinos) and calmly talking about placing "ordinance" on the "targets" that need to be "neutralized" with minimal "collateral damage" and also answering affirmative on taking care of the sentiments of the Darfurians. I know, pure unadulterated rubbish, if you are a half human. But you know he is right. Has to be. Sorry to say, ain't getting that creepy but rather effective vibe from the pandas. They end up with photos that the world says politely "yeeay!! nice work, boy!! here let me put it up at the most important place in the house, the refrigerator door". Something to do with capabalities and seriousness in wielding them

Till then, it is some PLA recruits from low income areas using a version of what I use on me boss "intense research on D&D economic models"

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 May 2011 03:52

I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional.

oh God no

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 31 May 2011 00:11

According to GamePro, the United States Army is funding one hell of an advanced military simulator, and they're going to utilize something familiar to gamers: Crytek's CryEngine 3, the same engine that was used to power Crysis 2.

This new combat simulator will cost $57 million, but it'll give soldiers an experience that goes well beyond current gaming. The Dismounted Soldier Training System (DSTS) from tech company Intelligent Decisions will let soldiers train "within a photorealistic video game environment that features real weather conditions, squad interactions, and advanced motion sensor technology for full 360-degree movement in-game." By January of next year, the Army should have 102 systems in operation around the world.

Said Floyd West, Director of Strategic Programs, Orlando Division of Intelligent Decisions:

"What we're trying to do with infantry squad-level training is suspension of disbelief, and the CryEngine 3 is the best video game technology on the market today. With CryEngine 3 being used for Crysis 2 and the capabilities that game engine provides, it allows us to make the most realistic simulation possible. We're able to transport soldiers to accurately recreated locales like Afghanistan and Iraq, where we can simulate everything from visuals to 360-degree sound."
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/9161.html
http://crytek.com/games/crysis2/overview

March 2, 2010
America's Army, an online combat game developed by the Pentagon, has helped boost military recruitment. The game's technology is not all that different from the tools used in today's war zones to guide unmanned drones and perform other tasks.

In a recent article for Foreign Policy, Peter Singer, the director of the 21st Century Defense Initiative at the Brookings Institution, explored the question of how realistic that technology really is and the extent to which virtual and actual war have merged.

"It's what they call a 'first-person shooter,'" Singer tells NPR's Steve Inskeep; in the game, the player looks down the barrel of a gun on the battlefield.

Millions of people play the game. It ranks in the top 10 of all downloadable games; the Chinese government even sought to ban it. But its depictions of military training and combat were meant to be a recruiting tool — and America's Army has succeeded in that goal, Singer says.

"One study found that the game had more impact on actual recruits than all other forms of Army advertising combined," he says.

With its graphics and compelling storylines, America's Army is just the start of a broader spectrum of something Singer calls "'militainment' — where the military is drawing from entertainment for its tools."

For instance, he says, the controls for remote-controlled weapons like the Predator and Pacbot are modeled after Xbox and PlayStation controllers.

Part of the reason behind that is that game makers had done millions of dollars' worth of research in ergonomics to make sure the devices fit well in the hand.

"But more importantly, the training costs had already been taken out because you hand these to an 18-year-old and they automatically know how to use it," Singer says
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124216122

Thank you Gakakkad, Gaur, Shiv, Manum, Gurneesh, Hnair, Surya for your thoughtful insights and pointing out deficiencies in my comment,

Why is it embarrassing to watch PLA soldiers train with PC games. US army extensively trains with purpose built video games for combat simulation. On another note, there was an earlier recruitment drive in US army for people with nimble gaming skills for remotely manning roof mounted guns on their strykers etc. It will be embarrassing for us if Indian armed forces don't play catch up.

You would probably be interested in knowing through your current chaiwallas about the latest at computer gaming at ARTRAC, Mhow and EME, Secunderabad.

Lastly, lets cut the OT discussion as I am not keen to get into brazen public wordfests with my own countrymen, lets reserve the jingoistic spirit for peeps across the border. So, Have a 'good' game !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2011 06:02

Krishnakg wrote:
Thank you Gakakkad, Gaur, Shiv, Manum, Gurneesh, Hnair, Surya for your thoughtful insights and pointing out deficiencies in my comment,

You would probably be interested in knowing through your current chaiwallas about the latest at computer gaming at ARTRAC, Mhow and EME, Secunderabad.

Lastly, lets cut the OT discussion as I am not keen to get into brazen public wordfests with my own countrymen, lets reserve the jingoistic spirit for peeps across the border. So, Have a 'good' game !

You are welcome Krishnakg but since you have mentioned my name in a post where you imply that I may have pointed out "deficiencies in your post" I would like to remind you to read my post first. I have not pointed out any deficiencies in your post or that of anyone else. Perhaps you belong to the same genre of people who do not read what is written and accuse others of "brazen public wordfests" in a brazen public wordfest of your own.

It's not clear why you should get upset at anyone who does not read the links you post when you can't be bothered to read what is written. I understand that you might want to be heard over everyone else - and perhaps that is why one part of your post, quoted above is in bold text. Did you think that others may not read it in a copycat act of what you did to at least my post? I am sure you are more right than everyone else. Thanks for the edification.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 31 May 2011 06:11

I merely was

at not having the core competency that yet another BRite has

manum · Post by **manum** » 31 May 2011 07:56

Why is it embarrassing to watch PLA soldiers train with PC games. US army extensively trains with purpose built video games for combat simulation. On another note, there was an earlier recruitment drive in US army for people with nimble gaming skills for remotely manning roof mounted guns on their strykers etc. It will be embarrassing for us if Indian armed forces don't play catch up.

Krishnakg wrote:I know what I am talking about, because I have core competency in the subject matter and I am a professional.

Krishnakg wrote:You would probably be interested in knowing through your current chaiwallas about the latest at computer gaming at ARTRAC, Mhow and EME, Secunderabad.

Lastly, lets cut the OT discussion as I am not keen to get into brazen public wordfests with my own countrymen, lets reserve the jingoistic spirit for peeps across the border. So, Have a 'good' game !

I tried to get everything in perspective of Chinese soldier playing video games on 15" lenovo laptops and not get it OT...but in meanwhile all that you sprayed it all around.
A soldier or any professional who relies heavily on virtual environment...to make sense, survive, succeed or accomplish a task, has to have strong sense or feeling of it which you can call reality...and lastly a soldier is not a software engineer, they must have a strong sense of reality to make best use of virtual environment and push the limit to unseen...so they always have an edge or strategic advantage...

but I can not see any of that on 15" lenovo laptop gaming...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2011 09:28

wong wrote:This is the new Type 039B. Pics have been out since September.

Heck bugger it folks, Can someone please explain what those horizontal slits are? I am no sub expert but looking at photos of other subs I am completely unable to find any other sub with such huge slits. I was always told that the sides of a sub need to be smooth to avoid turbulence those slits look unstealthy to my untrained eye.

Just look at them in this image. This does not like louvres that close to me
http://i.imgur.com/SaPcw.jpg

Someone please remove my ignorance.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 09:32

they are drain holes from ballast tanks probably. the open/close doors would be hidden inside. kilo design has double hull, so presumably does this yuan class. most all other SSK are single hull.

the Jin (094) class SSBN has rows and rows of holes almost like the ancient greco-roman rowing boats...similar function imo.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_cTaL ... -class.jpg

even the real Kilo has such slits, though not so promiment or large
http://www.military-today.com/navy/kilo_class_l2.jpg

maybe the increased capacity to pump water in/out using these much larger grates permits a faster dive or surfacing compared to the basic Kilo.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2011 09:38

Singha Yuan class does not seem to have such horrendous slits

And below is Indian navy Kilo
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Kilo20.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2011 09:41

Question is - could it be Photoshop class sub?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 09:46

well its a bigger (fatter) sub than Kilo for sure both the sail and hull are fatter. so maybe it does need those grates, maybe some guy (artist) was trying to "improve" the looks and make it more chankian and threatening...who knows....but the Yuan does exist and follow-ons based on it are logical to expect.

chinese are not pushovers in naval design, and Rubin has been giving them help for SSK if not more. there will be reasons of logic for everything and this could include some engineering challenges that large grates work around perhaps.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 31 May 2011 09:50

Photoshop class sub.....good one shivji

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 31 May 2011 10:03

shiv wrote:
Krishnakg wrote:
Thank you Gakakkad, Gaur, Shiv, Manum, Gurneesh, Hnair, Surya for your thoughtful insights and pointing out deficiencies in my comment,

You would probably be interested in knowing through your current chaiwallas about the latest at computer gaming at ARTRAC, Mhow and EME, Secunderabad.

Lastly, lets cut the OT discussion as I am not keen to get into brazen public wordfests with my own countrymen, lets reserve the jingoistic spirit for peeps across the border. So, Have a 'good' game !
You are welcome Krishnakg but since you have mentioned my name in a post where you imply that I may have pointed out "deficiencies in your post" I would like to remind you to read my post first. I have not pointed out any deficiencies in your post or that of anyone else. Perhaps you belong to the same genre of people who do not read what is written and accuse others of "brazen public wordfests" in a brazen public wordfest of your own.

It's not clear why you should get upset at anyone who does not read the links you post when you can't be bothered to read what is written. I understand that you might want to be heard over everyone else - and perhaps that is why one part of your post, quoted above is in bold text. Did you think that others may not read it in a copycat act of what you did to at least my post? I am sure you are more right than everyone else. Thanks for the edification.

Shiv, I did thank you and others for the "thoughtful insights" and "deficiencies". I do read before I post. Always glad to edify and acknowledge the knowledge'd ones.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 May 2011 10:10

ashthor wrote:Photoshop class sub.....good one shivji

Well the problem is - one can never tell. Sometimes its photoshop - at others it is not.