Indian Army: News & Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2011 10:03

chackojoseph wrote:Indian and French armies to conduct Exercise Shakti this year

CJ whats going on? Why French and what is the objective? And the name?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 May 2011 10:11

ramana,

Old school trick. As we train with them, we like their equipment and we buy them.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 29 May 2011 10:57

Austin wrote:Russia Snubs India : Moscow cancels two military exercises with India

Ever since that engine reached the bandars back things are going south.. very fast. If it just reflects the momentary anger for rejection in MMRCA then never mind but I am afraid its more then that.. there is a shift in the thinking.. the list of "common interests" have been reduced to selling & buying stuff. And that too doesn't look very healthy -

The aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov. The refit slipped by four years and the its cost doubled to $2.3 billion.

Deadlines for the acquisition of an Akula-II class nuclear-powered submarine have slipped by over three years.
... There is no word on when the strategic submarine, which the navy desperately needs, will be transferred to India.

The real issue is the poor sourcing of components for Russian-made equipment operated by the Indian armed forces.
... "It takes nearly a year for us to get even export permissions from Russia. This severely impacts force preparedness," says a defense official.

Its like a bad marriage now.. both sides blaming each other.

Russia is reportedly keen that India pay for the completion of a second unfinished Akula hull at the Komsomolsk shipyard. This has been turned down by the navy.

So now its only Nerpa!

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2011 20:33

How will the cold start doctrine accommodate this threat?

http://worldofdefense.blogspot.com/2011 ... apons.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2011 20:41

cold start won't. ANY use of nukes against us or our forces immediately takes the game to the next level, massive retaliation. so, unless pakistan wants to commit collective suicide, they will stay off the tactical nuke option.

oh and btw, it is quite unlikely pakistan has the miniature warheads needed for use on systems like harpoon and this MBRL. check out the pakistan military thread.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 May 2011 21:22

I would start planning to reduce dependency on the Russians. Its going to be painful for the short term but we have no choice. Have little faith in PAK FA\FGFA etc. I don;t think we will ever see the Nerpa or by the time it comes - its probably worthless

unless their economy detiorates more and they need us desperately they are unlikely to change behaviour
in
Our only hope is that their decline continues and as they China grabbing their resources they will finally wake up and behave

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 29 May 2011 23:09

I actually wish there was an international embargo on weapon sales to India. That would either lead to the death of socialism in Indian defense production as did the economic crisis of 1991 lead to market reforms in the general economy, or it would leave the armed forces with no weapons... certainly not an option. Imports are a drug addiction that will never go away in the current set up.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2011 23:16

Rahul M wrote:cold start won't. ANY use of nukes against us or our forces immediately takes the game to the next level, massive retaliation. so, unless pakistan wants to commit collective suicide, they will stay off the tactical nuke option.

oh and btw, it is quite unlikely pakistan has the miniature warheads needed for use on systems like harpoon and this MBRL. check out the pakistan military thread.

What I am thinking is using a sub kiloton weapon on our advancing forces within Pakistani territory.
I used that tactic in Rise of Nations few years ago.

Technically, we will be given a choice of retaliating fully, as the textbook says risking several of our cities in the ensuring exchange. Or pulling back accepting the loss of few thousand troops.
That is going to be a very dangerous choice for us to make as civilians are not targeted and our territory was not attacked. If we retaliate, it will be like we are taking down say Karachi and its population first when none of our civilians our ground is attacked.

The warheads are not that difficult for Pak to get its hands on. Our eastern neighbor has an established capability for similar sized warheads.

That said, may I have any source that details of the effectiveness of the NBC resistance features of our or any other armor

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 May 2011 06:09

my reply here : http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1099638

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 30 May 2011 06:21

Army to induct new carbine soon

Milap, a new indigenous carbine, is likely to be inducted in the Indian Army soon, sources said.

Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Ordnance Factory Board (OFB)have developed this modern carbine. They have developed 20 models of the weapon. It is claimed the Army's fire capacity will soar after induction of the new weapon.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 May 2011 06:26

I am assuming they mean the MSMC ?

larger image : http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... arbine.jpg

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 30 May 2011 06:35

^^^Rahul MSMC makes sense, I have seen what you have posted; however I have not heard of Milap!!!

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 30 May 2011 07:14

makes me wonder if milap and MSMC are one and same

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 May 2011 08:24

I don;t think we will ever see the Nerpa or by the time it comes - its probably worthless

Sadly, it more and more seems that the Nerpa might never hit Indian waters going by the kind of reasons being trotted out for every round of delay. Seems that lots of back ground bargaining iis going on and we might hear reasons like "painting interiors" etc till the bargaining concludes.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 May 2011 08:30

Srivastav wrote:makes me wonder if milap and MSMC are one and same

Seems so. It is the name given to Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC), like LCA is Tejas and ATV being Arihant.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 30 May 2011 08:32

Sadned why the Govern. is considering this on table even when they already lost the area , and it does not hurt us any longer to control the area( do not remember saw in one of the chiefs interview) :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... logue.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 May 2011 09:42

Indian Army vajra Corps conducts Exercise "Pine Prahar"

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 May 2011 10:03

^^ Is pine in "Pine prahar" exercise of IA referring to the pine tree?

Interesting that so many exercises on the TSP border in recent times by IA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 May 2011 10:07

koti wrote:
Technically, we will be given a choice of retaliating fully, as the textbook says risking several of our cities in the ensuring exchange. Or pulling back accepting the loss of few thousand troops.
That is going to be a very dangerous choice for us to make as civilians are not targeted and our territory was not attacked. If we retaliate, it will be like we are taking down say Karachi and its population first when none of our civilians our ground is attacked.

The warheads are not that difficult for Pak to get its hands on. Our eastern neighbor has an established capability for similar sized warheads.

Why should an army pull back after losing several thousand troops. The right thing to do would be to push forward and nuke the heck out of Pakistan.

Because if the army is pulled back after losing several thousand troops in order to save the cities, both India and Pakistan survive to fight another day. So in a few years time Pakistan can once again launch an attack on India and expect that we will back out because we do not want to lose our cities. That would fit our "dhoti shivering" label.

Wrong moves. If Pakistan launches nukes - the attack goes ahead with more gusto. No sense even having armed rroces if this is not done.

koti · Post by **koti** » 30 May 2011 10:19

^ Makes sense.

manum · Post by **manum** » 30 May 2011 10:22

solution is simple for the creativity of pakistani strategists...is extension in definition of no first use doctrine...such a dictionery ammendment will simply fizzle so much of hoopla...if it deserves attention...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 May 2011 10:23

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army vajya Corps conducts Exercise "Pine Prahar"

CJ,

Quick proof-reading of the article. Please see the highlighted portions

Indian Army vajya (should be Vajra)Corps conducts Exercise “Pine Prahar”

Indian Army’s Army’s Vajra Corps has begun a 4 day exercise dubbed “Pine Prahar.” Vajra corps is responsible for definding Indian Punjab and are nicknamed as “Defenders of Punjab.” The exercise is designed to test swift mobilisation of units and formations, and offensive manoeuvres. Lt Gen Munish Sibal, General Officer Commanding of Vajra Corpssaid (space) “Vajra Corps was(is) fully ready to safeguard the border of the state at any given time.” “Over 12,000 troops are taking part in the exercise,” he added.

There are elements of force multipliers like Indian Air Force, battlefield transparency and enhanced mobility demonstrators in sync with the requirements of the future battlefield.

At the end of the exercise, a Battle group with an all arms composition will practice offensive manoeuvres across different obstacle systems. This manoeuvre will validate the mission accomplishment capabilities of the battle group, incorporating enhanced integration of combat troops with tailor made organizations for C4 ISR (Intelligence Surveillance Recce), jointmanship and network centric operations.

Hope it helps.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 May 2011 10:26

sum wrote:^^ Is pine in "Pine prahar" exercise of IA referring to the pine tree?

Interesting that so many exercises on the TSP border in recent times by IA.

One of the Infantry Divisions (9 Infantry Division) under XI Corps (Vajra Corps) has Pine Tree as formation sign and is called as the Pine Division. It may be the main element in the exercise and hence, the name. Just a guess!

Please see the image in the article below:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... /9-div.htm

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 May 2011 10:50

rohitvats wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army vajya Corps conducts Exercise "Pine Prahar"
CJ,

Quick proof-reading of the article. Please see the highlighted portions

Hope it helps.

More than "Helps.". Its a complete disaster to have that on headline.

I really appreciate what you have done for me. Thank You.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 May 2011 11:19

^^^You're wlecome.

And we really appreciate the information that you share with us.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 14:52

krishna_krishna wrote:Sadned why the Govern. is considering this on table even when they already lost the area...

Downright stupid to negotiate with Pakis, what is there to negotiate in Siachen? I originally thought it was a composite dialog. which is just a glorified "Chai-Biskot" sight seeing trip for Babus. We should just say, let us formally announce that Siachen belongs to India and Pakistan has no claim over it.

Then we can talk about Pakis buying nuts and bolts from Desh.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 14:55

CJ, just say Punjab... the other one across the job is Pakjab... let us not qualify Indian States like Punjab and J&K with these prefixes. We don't call Hyderabad (in AP) as Indian Hyderabad?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 May 2011 15:01

Thanks rohitvates.

Cheenum, jo hukum sarkar.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 May 2011 16:21

Indian Army looks for Spatial Disorientation Training Simulator to train helicopter crew

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 May 2011 16:50

Cross Posting from Indian Military Aviation Thread.

cheenum wrote:
Gaur wrote: Not necessarily. Our Infantry units are more than sufficiently trained for these kind of Mountain Operations.
I think this will be of interest to you:
Grenadier Yogender Singh Yadav

Also, to get a gist of mountain climbing capabilities of Indian Infantry, this is an excellent program:
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... ool/198623
Guar, you seem to be agreeing to my point, it is not regular troops but "Ghatak commando" who is a special soldier and not a regular Infantry. Thanks for the write-up on Grenadier Yegendra Singh Yadav, his heroics have been imitated by our hero.

Anyway, its a movie, they show much details about the IA (more than what they have already shown).

Ghatak Commandos are basically a collection of young, fit and motivated troops from the Batallion. They are not special forces. So, it is wrong to say that Ghatak Soldier is a "special soldier and not a regular infantry". This is not to show any disrespect towards Ghatak Platoon. On the other hand, it shows how "special" our so called "regular" infantry is and the level of training they go they go through.

And the amazing thing is that this was not even an isolated operation. Many such operations were conducted during Kargil War by various regiments (including some daring ones by Ladakh Scouts which were not even an Infantry regiment back then).

Anyway, my post was not aimed at discussing the accuracies of the movie (which I personally enjoyed a lot

). I was just pointing out that such operations are well within the capability of various Infantry regiments of IA, specially those with reputation in Mountain Warfare like JAKLI, Ladakh Scouts, MLI etc.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 02 Jun 2011 17:13

I came across this link:

http://twower.livejournal.com/528226.html

dealing with the India-Russia joint exercises.

Given the comments made therein on Indian army marksmanship standards and infantry tactics, I wonder if anyone more knowledgeable can shed some light or provide some insights into the strengths/deficiencies of infantry training in India and comment on the comparions made in the link.

It could be a lot of it is mere egotistical boasting, but it does raise some questions that need discussing.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jun 2011 17:48

one point though, the russi soldiers were from the divisional recon battalion, who are a bit like our ghatak platoons but at division level AFAIK, or you could also consider them to be pathfinder kind of troops.* while ours were line units from kumaon regiment.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46740627/Russ ... roop-Recon

going through their role it does look like they are eligible to be called SF level in terms of training.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2011 17:56

^^^I could not find any link to comments and the language is russian. What am I missing?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jun 2011 18:05

google translate.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2011 18:12

Rahul M wrote:google translate.

BTW, them SDRE are from 2 Naga and not Kumaon Regiment.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2011 18:16

Rahul M wrote:one point though, the russi soldiers were from the divisional recon battalion, who are a bit like our ghatak platoons but at division level AFAIK, or you could also consider them to be pathfinder kind of troops.* while ours were line units from kumaon regiment.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46740627/Russ ... roop-Recon

going through their role it does look like they are eligible to be called SF level in terms of training.

If the RAC elements from Div Recce Battalion are good enough to conduct recce 100kms inside enemy territory (as per the link you posted) and sustain themselves, they'd be qualified as SF in any army around the world. But I doubt that USSR could all the frontline (or CAT A) divisions with such troops. given the humungous number of divisions which the USSR fielded, the number of such men required would be very large.....and for a conscript army to be able to do that would be a real stretch. May be, some elite Guards Divisions had such operatives but the whole damn army? I don't think so.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jun 2011 18:20

rohit, other links say kumaon but then 2 naga's rgt centre = kumaon rgt centre ?

red army had classes of divisions as well and not all divisions were created equal. also, the entire army was not conscript, every unit had a regular core that was brought to full strength in wartime by adding the conscripts and reserves. specially trained units were all regular.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2011 18:36

Rahul M wrote:rohit, other links say kumaon but then 2 naga's rgt centre = kumaon rgt centre ?

red army had classes of divisions as well and not all divisions were created equal. also, the entire army was not conscript, every unit had a regular core that was brought to full strength in wartime by adding the conscripts and reserves. specially trained units were all regular.

Check the small flags ( or whatever one calls them) with Naga Regiment. See the pics here:

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545 ... 5/?page=24

Naga Regiment was raised under the aegis of Kumaon Regiment. It still has 50% strength from Kumaonis and Gharwalis and Gorkhas.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 02 Jun 2011 19:21

Yes Rahul M, I used google translate. Appreciate any views on training/ marksmanship in the IA.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Jun 2011 21:13

150 rounds/year? Even with simulators, that does not make sense.