Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

jai · Post by **jai** » 25 May 2011 09:20

Surya wrote:jaladipc

we do not need anything till its public knowledge

+1.

Please wait till it comes in the public domain.

Do not disclose anything that the govt has a reason to keep secret.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 May 2011 09:32

Raghavendra wrote:
jaladipc wrote:To fellow Jingos,

Got some new insights into the Indian Cruise missile developments.Both surface/sub launched and air launched.there is no point in blaming MOD for not being pro-active. Infact these new developments will shiver the dothis of chipandas.
Excellent info on laaaangggggggg( means really long) range surface launched aka mobile based CM for both conventional and nuclear attack profiles. will be able to spew the details once my chaiwallah stamps it.Pretty much will make every jingo on BR make party for the whole year.
after getting required permission colloborate with joseph and write an article for frontier india site and link it here, make it an web exclusive. Birathers get latest news on maal, FI gets traffic WIN WIN situation

I absolutely wub you

(for who don't know, I had coined the word "wub" for "web love." Folks who know me from BruteGorilla days will remember it.)

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 May 2011 04:45

May 26/11: Textron Systems Corp. in Wilmington, MA receives a $9.9 million contract modification for the Sensor Fuzed Weapon India Foreign Military Sales case integration phase. It’s an 8-month effort, but without it, there isn’t much point to buying a bomb that can’t work with your planes. The AAC/EBJI at Eglin Air Force Base, FL manages the contract, on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8682-11-C-0044, PO 0001).

Any takers on which aircrafts will these be fitted upon?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2011 05:55

shiv wrote:

As an offshoot of this - Indians are so open that they end up publicizing failures, success, events and non events. Other Indians who read about Indian failures and

Failures are published 10 times on avg more than the success. This was done with other programs giving false image.
Indians end up having low image of their capabilities

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2011 06:08

Not to mention furrinners. Which might be good thing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 May 2011 06:32

Acharya wrote: Failures are published 10 times on avg more than the success. This was done with other programs giving false image.
Indians end up having low image of their capabilities

True. Even when there is a success - there is mention of all previous related and unrelated failures. On BRF I have often tried to classify and explain this. I have theorized that it may be a cultural tendency to take good with bad, bitter with sweet. Or I thought maybe its saytameva jayate gone apeshit. Or else I have wondered it is the mindset of the colonised in which any praise is instantly met with reminders of shortcomings and failures. Or just low self esteem.

I don't know - maybe its a combination of all of the above and more. But it has its negative consequences - as ramana said - among external observers who have no incentive to see it differently and only add to the destruction of self esteem.

Long ago I mentioned an observation I made in the UK. For many Brits foreign scent smells like crap, while British crap smells good. The same pride in "anything that is ours" is shown by even Pakis and Chinese. But not Indians.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 May 2011 09:02

Shiv, DRDO makes some really good stuff but they don't get the credit. Thats because there is a lobby to look them down. The services are wary of accepting if they have a choice to import. Slowly they will get more acceptance.

That cl20 is really cutting edge.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 28 May 2011 16:14

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:

As an offshoot of this - Indians are so open that they end up publicizing failures, success, events and non events. Other Indians who read about Indian failures and
Failures are published 10 times on avg more than the success. This was done with other programs giving false image.
Indians end up having low image of their capabilities

Not only that but it also give the layman an image that the Indian/DRDO products are dude and the foren maal works best.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 28 May 2011 17:34

My regular paanwalla spoke to the chai tapri vala who was somewhere near the Astra raakit launch.

He said and I quote him " Bloody meedia waala dont understand what happens in the test. They were expecting the mijjile to Phly away, because it was hair to hair raakit. When they saw it coming down they said it failed. What they were expecting, geostationary horbit?" (Ok, exact quote but with BR lingo added

)
In case you are wondering chaiwala is very well educated!

Overall, it was a test of different aspects of raakit motor, control laws and weight management. It was a success on all assigned test points. Of course the mijjile followed expected ballistic trajectory. In the 'failed' test it was actually launched at a higher angle which meant that that particular mijjile fell within the trajectory of the other two.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 28 May 2011 21:46

shiv wrote:
Acharya wrote: Failures are published 10 times on avg more than the success. This was done with other programs giving false image.
Indians end up having low image of their capabilities
True. Even when there is a success - there is mention of all previous related and unrelated failures. On BRF I have often tried to classify and explain this. I have theorized that it may be a cultural tendency to take good with bad, bitter with sweet. Or I thought maybe its saytameva jayate gone apeshit. Or else I have wondered it is the mindset of the colonised in which any praise is instantly met with reminders of shortcomings and failures. Or just low self esteem.

I don't know - maybe its a combination of all of the above and more. But it has its negative consequences - as ramana said - among external observers who have no incentive to see it differently and only add to the destruction of self esteem.

Long ago I mentioned an observation I made in the UK. For many Brits foreign scent smells like crap, while British crap smells good. The same pride in "anything that is ours" is shown by even Pakis and Chinese. But not Indians.

Plain and simple low self-esteem issue here primarily methinks, no piskology needed. Low self-esteem of a colonised mind along with past experience when most things were GoI manufactured/created or license quota raj private company created where there was no incentive to produce anything but crap.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 29 May 2011 07:50

nikhil_p wrote:My regular paanwalla spoke to the chai tapri vala who was somewhere near the Astra raakit launch.
..........
Overall, it was a test of different aspects of raakit motor, control laws and weight management. It was a success on all assigned test points. Of course the mijjile followed expected ballistic trajectory. In the 'failed' test it was actually launched at a higher angle which meant that that particular mijjile fell within the trajectory of the other two.

I guess this answers my question.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 May 2011 18:08

jaladipc wrote:To fellow Jingos,

Got some new insights into the Indian Cruise missile developments.Both surface/sub launched and air launched.there is no point in blaming MOD for not being pro-active. Infact these new developments will shiver the dothis of chipandas.
Excellent info on laaaangggggggg( means really long) range surface launched aka mobile based CM for both conventional and nuclear attack profiles. will be able to spew the details once my chaiwallah stamps it.Pretty much will make every jingo on BR make party for the whole year.

jaladipc biradher,
Spill it pleeese.

My conjecture: Nirbhay 2500Km LACM - high subsonic.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 May 2011 20:04

Gagan: NO. Ignorance is bliss. If the GOI wants to publicize it...then that is their prerogative.

jaladipc: Please don't post stuff like this. It is not needed.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 May 2011 20:09

Yeah it is the poor chaiwallah who might get into the trouble; these things are monitored guys.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 29 May 2011 23:55

How did this slip under the radar? from http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/NLMay2011.pdf Talking about Avinash Chander:

Presently, he is leading three major system
developments; A2P, a technologically challenging
state-of-the-art system; a 5000 km canister-launched
A5 system; and a 6000 km A6 system with multiple
warheads (MIRV) capable launching of both from
the ground and underwater.

This the first I am hearing of an A6

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 30 May 2011 04:12

Rakesh wrote:Gagan: NO. Ignorance is bliss. If the GOI wants to publicize it...then that is their prerogative.

jaladipc: Please don't post stuff like this. It is not needed.

I am still waiting for my permissions. Will not post details until they loose the strings. But the above is just a headsup without going into details.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 30 May 2011 07:19

tejas wrote:How did this slip under the radar? from http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2011/NLMay2011.pdf Talking about Avinash Chander:

Presently, he is leading three major system
developments; A2P, a technologically challenging
state-of-the-art system; a 5000 km canister-launched
A5 system; and a 6000 km A6 system with multiple
warheads (MIRV) capable launching of both from
the ground and underwater.
This the first I am hearing of an A6

no it dint slip under BR's radar!!was posted couple of pages back.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 30 May 2011 07:41

^^^ Oops! Sorry I missed that.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 30 May 2011 12:42

MBDA To Race Indo-French SR-SAM In 2 Indian Competitions

In a significant break from pitching ready, operational products in Indian weapon tenders, French missile firm MBDA has pitched the in-development Indo-French joint short-range surface to air missile (SR-SAM) or Maitri in at least one Indian competition -- the Indian Army's early 2010 tender for a QR-SAM [PDF]. In the December 2010 edition of the company's in-house journal, MBDA says that it has "decided to respond to the QRSAM Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) competition with the SRSAM, thus offering the Indians enhanced synergies."

The Indian Army has also expressed its interest [PDF] in acquiring a short-range surface to air missile.

The SR-SAM Maitri is being developed for all three Indian armed services and export, and could see a first test-firing in 2012. On the status of the SR-SAM, the same Dec 2010 issue quotes MBDA's export development director Michel Pétré as saying, “Today this project, which mobilises a vast set of competences, has reached a very advanced stage, and discussions are continuing with persistence, passion and patience.” (Which is actually a seriously polite way of saying, "Dude, we've been at it for four years, get the friggin agreement done already...").

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2011 14:42

Purush has a few latest pics of the Spyder in Singapore service- you an make out the python and derby loaded into same system. singapore has them on MAN truck, we will have it on Tatra.

http://pentaxsg.smugmug.com/Airplanes/R ... ACR-X3.jpg
http://pentaxsg.smugmug.com/Airplanes/R ... ACR-X3.jpg
http://pentaxsg.smugmug.com/Airplanes/R ... ACR-X3.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2011 14:45

imo very poor loadout of just 4 missiles per truck. 8 would have helped. sadly VL mica also does not better than 4
http://www.deagel.com/library1/medium/m ... 500090.jpg

the comparable size SA15 Tor system uses VL tubes for 8 rounds I think.

the IAF deal for $415 mil to acquire 18 systems is in cold storage pending some investigation by the CVC one hears.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 15:36

nikhil_p wrote:My regular paanwalla spoke to the chai tapri vala who was somewhere near the Astra raakit launch.

He said and I quote him " Bloody meedia waala dont understand what happens in the test. They were expecting the mijjile to Phly away, because it was hair to hair raakit. When they saw it coming down they said it failed. What they were expecting, geostationary horbit?" (Ok, exact quote but with BR lingo added )
In case you are wondering chaiwala is very well educated!

Overall, it was a test of different aspects of raakit motor, control laws and weight management. It was a success on all assigned test points. Of course the mijjile followed expected ballistic trajectory. In the 'failed' test it was actually launched at a higher angle which meant that that particular mijjile fell within the trajectory of the other two.

Thanks Nikhil, When DDM mentioned Ballistic, i was wondering how is ballistic and AAM related. DDM didn't expect the mijjile to come down at all, they probably should have self destruct it at an altitude and announced that it hit a target and destroyed it into 10 million pieces.

We need more "Well Educated" Chaiwallas, Paan Waalas, Dabba Waalas and less DDM!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 15:40

Singha wrote:the IAF deal for $415 mil to acquire 18 systems is in cold storage pending some investigation by the CVC one hears.

Are you sure? I thought the deal was kosher and deliveries are happening!!! can you confirm? I too am checking my Paanwala.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 15:50

Singha wrote:the IAF deal for $415 mil to acquire 18 systems is in cold storage pending some investigation by the CVC one hears.

I just Checked SIPRI database, The Spyder deal as well as the Derby missiles for Spyder are listed under 2008.
18 Spyder systems for $260M with delivery in 2011-13. SIPRI only reports signed orders.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 May 2011 19:34

Hope people will wub me for information on Helina on Sunday.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 19:43

chackojoseph wrote:Hope people will wub me for information on Helina on Sunday.

CJ, updates from you are welcome any day

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2011 22:23

sunday ist? 2:30 hrs left to go.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 May 2011 22:37

may be irt, railway time... same time, but will come next day.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 May 2011 03:33

chackojoseph wrote:Hope people will wub me for information on Helina on Sunday.

CJ, it is already Monday evening in Khan land, did you mean next Sunday 5th June.. darn... Jingos would be left high & dry for a week with anticipation

John · Post by **John** » 31 May 2011 18:24

Singha wrote:imo very poor loadout of just 4 missiles per truck. 8 would have helped. sadly VL mica also does not better than 4
http://www.deagel.com/library1/medium/m ... 500090.jpg

the comparable size SA15 Tor system uses VL tubes for 8 rounds I think.

the IAF deal for $415 mil to acquire 18 systems is in cold storage pending some investigation by the CVC one hears.

It would nice if army went for AAA-SAM platform like Pantsir which can also augment and replace Tunguska's in service. Plus 30 mm guns can also be used for suppression fire in ground attack.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 May 2011 18:31

cheenum wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Hope people will wub me for information on Helina on Sunday.
CJ, it is already Monday evening in Khan land, did you mean next Sunday 5th June.. darn... Jingos would be left high & dry for a week with anticipation

5th June. It's being given shape. I don't want to make spelling mistakes again

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 May 2011 20:49

Don't want to start a guessing game, but still..

Helina integrated with LCH ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jun 2011 07:30

Not yet, I am bringing it out as purely science prespective.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 02 Jun 2011 18:04

some tidbits on LRSAM from livefist http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/06/mo ... rak-8.html
it says among indian development in this regard one is a two pulse rocket motor.is this the same one being developed for astra Mk2??so it means we already have the propulsion covered for mk2??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2011 21:54

both the active seeker and the dual pulse rocket motor tech could be useful...thinking of the astra2 as a downsized barak8 and entirely different from the astra1 which is supposedly using a agat active seeker (prolly 15-20km range) for terminal homing. problem with Agat seeker or MBDA seeker is the Rus/French will surely keep the best maal for their own R77-replacement and Mica2 .. giving us slightly trailing edge tech and not showing us how to design the seeker. we need to leverage other projects and design our own seeker, if needed using imported RF components but owning and debugging the whole thing for Astra1.1 release...this will also make it more difficult for adversaries to work out ECM for it...ideally a tiny LPI aesa radar on a swatchplate for wider azimuth to catch hard manouvering targets and defeat jamming.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 03 Jun 2011 07:15

singhaji,how difficult would it be to modify barak 8's active seeker to suit air to air role of astra??and considering that we have the dual pulse motor already ,modifying the existing radar seeker would speed up development of mk2.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jun 2011 09:40

I am sure this approach has been considered. nobody is revealing much, incl if the recent ground tests were for mk1 or mk2. nothing prevents parallel work on both.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jun 2011 10:19

In LR-SAM (based on DRDO's slide reported by Shiv) if Israeli contribution is only the Seeker (India had already bought the MF-STAR) radar to be fitted on its frontline ships like P15A destroyers etc, why are calling it a JV and not just as a tech purchase/TOT from Yehudis. There could be 2 things...
1) Yehudis are bringing a lot more to the table than this and both don't want to talk about this.
2) Marketing it as a JV would help DRDO sell this better to IA/IAF and IN (the product is primarily for IN).

What next, a JV to jointly develop MBTs?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 03 Jun 2011 10:57

what happened to the BEL, RAFAEL venture for the missile seekers facility?? this is april 2010 report.

BEL missile seeker venture with Israel's Rafael may come through this year

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2011 11:04

cheenum wrote:In LR-SAM (based on DRDO's slide reported by Shiv) if Israeli contribution is only the Seeker (India had already bought the MF-STAR) radar to be fitted on its frontline ships like P15A destroyers

Its like Brahmos JV where each side foots the bill for their stuff and retains their respective IP for it , Israel brought in MF-STAR and Seeker , we got the propulsion and other things in there and then we lic produce those.

What next, a JV to jointly develop MBTs?

Possible you might want to put that in the armoured thread