Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

Lalmohan wrote:that still doesn't change the fact that from an american perspective they did what they did because they thought it was right.
Lalmohanji. No one in this world deliberately does things that they believe is wrong and should not be done. Not even Indians. No one should be criticized for saying or doing things in their own interest. If that is true no one needs to be told patronizingly that he refuses to think like the other guy because he thinks only about himself. That is what Johann said about Indians while comparing them with Americans (and Al Qaeda, incidentally)

Too much has been said - but I must point out that the statement was completely unnecessary.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by negi »

Lalmohan ji mango Amrikhan protesting against US support to TSP is in the same league as mango baki not wanting a war with India i.e. as far as India is concerned these guys are irrelevant;the problem is when it comes to Af-Pak both Unkil and TSP are in the same boat i.e. their intelligence agencies are calling the shots . To be precise CIA and ISI will sieze to exist (at least not be able to justify their size and nature of ops today) if Unkil decides to completly pull out from the Af-Pak region.To be honest US-Pak relationship is a misnomer;
can anyone tell me one area of commercial value where US entities (civillian/military) are engaged in trade with Bakis on a scale which can justify this cosy relationship ?The only entities which enjoy a symbiotic relationship (Commensalism ?) are the CIA and the ISI.
Last edited by negi on 06 Jun 2011 22:30, edited 3 times in total.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4668
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by putnanja »

Sadler wrote:If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.
I totally agree with this, except I would change the word "hindus" to "Indians", unless of course, the pakis deliberately attack a christian/jewish place/people in India. That would of course bring the world/media attention.

Otherwise, if pakis agree to co-operate with the US 100% for "afghanistan' only and ask them to keep India out of afghanistan and give them the assurance that LeT won't attack western interests, US will grab it with both hands. That of course was the situation before 9/11, and US will be happy to go back to that position
Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 530
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Abhijit »

Johann:
Why the binary thinking? You can be huge, active on the global level, and blinkered at the same time, filtering out everything that doesn't match what you're looking for.

The larger point was that America's blinkers were never just about Pakistan or India. They were world-sized. To fail to see that is to fail to examine US response to the Salafi Jihadi movement on the global scale, which represents a different kind of blinkers. I have no problem discussing either one.

America's Arab allies were screaming at the Americans about the Arab jihadi threat after 1990, and it wasn't until America took several direct hits, and several huge near-misses that they started to wake up before falling asleep all over again when the Bush Administration came in on January 2001. If thats the way the took warnings from close allies of many decades, how seriously were they going to take broad strategic warnings from India about jihad from Pakistan in the 1990s, when India and the US were neither friends nor enemies? It has been horribly tragic for all concerned.
Johann saar, I think this is a new == if I understand your point correctly. I can understand and even condone in a super logical sense if America had simply been blinkered. France was blinkered, Germany was blinkered, Japan was (somehwat) blinkered in their approach towards India-Pak problems. In the sense that they thought (somewhat rightly so) that it was a 'local' problem and no skin off their nose. And they mostly left it at that.
They did not go out of their way to finance an 'implacably hostile to India' regime with money, arms, aircraft, radar etc. out of their own citizens' pockets. They did not actively condone and in some cases justify paki atrocities towards India under the rubric of Hindu-Muslim animosity or any other snake oil regularly peddled by various foggy bottom and pentagon jokers. The French and Germans did not give regular income to the likes of riedel, perkovich, cohen, cloughly, margolis (to the best of my knowledge). In other words, America did not stop at being blinkered, which would have been acceptable, but went out of its way to aid and abet a homicidal regime against India.
You quoted example of Arab states screaming at America about the jihadi threat. But these arab states di not have to go through the trauma of america arming and providing diplomatic cover to the jihadi enemies of these states.
Raghavendra
BRFite
Posts: 1252
Joined: 11 Mar 2008 19:07
Location: Fishing in Sadhanakere

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raghavendra »

putnanja wrote:
Sadler wrote:If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.
I totally agree with this, except I would change the word "hindus" to "Indians", unless of course, the pakis deliberately attack a christian/jewish place/people in India. That would of course bring the world/media attention.

Otherwise, if pakis agree to co-operate with the US 100% for "afghanistan' only and ask them to keep India out of afghanistan and give them the assurance that LeT won't attack western interests, US will grab it with both hands. That of course was the situation before 9/11, and US will be happy to go back to that position
Pakistanis were involved in terrorism during bosnian war killing serbs[orthodox christians],
are presently active in aiding islamist insurgency in thailand killing thais[buddhists]

Both conflicts had nothing to do with hindus or indians, yet it didnt prevent pakistanis for doing their natural business of setting fires in other people's land.

Even if a agreement is signed pakistanis will continue with their business of terrorism, after all obama has been declared dajjal and 'west' is his home. Trying to kill him and attacking 'west' is obligatory and rewarded with place in heaven
Image
UBanerjee
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 01:41
Location: Washington DC

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by UBanerjee »

Abhijit wrote: In other words, America did not stop at being blinkered, which would have been acceptable, but went out of its way to aid and abet a homicidal regime against India.
Absolutely. The worst has been allowing the nuclear angle- the real, genuine threat. The question is, what are we going to do about it?

Furthermore, if we look at the other results of this American aiding and abetting, it seems to have been far worse for Pakistan than for India. For all the Amrika-Paki bhai-bhai song and dance, Pakistan's own territory and agencies are under siege from their best friends the Americans in the name of combating Paki's own disease. This is not intended for our benefit to be sure, but why not take advantage of it?
Last edited by UBanerjee on 06 Jun 2011 23:42, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by svinayak »

Abhijit wrote: In other words, America did not stop at being blinkered, which would have been acceptable, but went out of its way to aid and abet a homicidal regime against India.

The biggest damage is that they promoted the ideology of Pakistan for the last 40 years.
anishns
BRFite
Posts: 1382
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 09:43
Location: being victim onlee...

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by anishns »

Amirkhan is one of those entities....with whom niether should you be best friends, nor should you be an enemy
Vinod Ji
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 26 Oct 1999 11:31
Location: Dubai U.A.E.

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Vinod Ji »

Najam Sethi also thinks I.Kashmiri is probably not dead but being taken away from the public eye. I was listening aapas ki baat live at

http://desitvstreams.com/
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
Raja Ram wrote:
1 The US should realise that the continued existence of this entity called Pakistan is a threat to US at all times. Pakistan should cease to exist as a nation state.

2. Without Indian cooperation, the destruction of Pakistan is not possible for the US.
Raja Ram - Pakistan will survive as a whole or in parts with different names. But the only country that can keep it alive is India. The US can't do it. China can't do it. KSA? :rotfl:

Nations need an economy to survive on and the only nation on earth that can support the economy of Pakistan is India. When the Pakistanis find that out is a matter of debate. But before that the US and China have to exhaust the,selves supporting a small elite segment of the Pakistani people.
For a moment, I would like us to simply close our eyes (to reality and probability) and consider that Pakistan becomes India's munna; that Pakistanis, vipers as they continue to be, do not attack India or Indian interests; but they continue with the rest of their evolution and become a jihadi monster of unimaginable proportions for the rest of the world. In essence Pakistan becomes India's kitten and the world's man-eater.

It can only be possible if all of Pakistan's watering holes in the world become poisoned, and India remains as the only watering hole left for Pakistanis. What does India need to do for that?

Some suggestions:
  1. Widen the rift between USA and Pakistan. It is increasing on its own, but we need to work on American public opinion as well as US Congressmen.
  2. Get Pakistani Jihadis to indoctrinate, shelter and train Uyghurs. Uyghurs should become a no go area for Pakistani Establishment. Furthermore Pakistani Jihadis should learn to appreciate the value of kidnapping Chinese working in Pakistan. The current weakening of the establishment viz-a-viz the "non-state" jihadis facilitates such developments.
  3. Shift the possession of the Oil Fields of the Arabian Peninsula, most prominently the Ghowar Oil Fields in Al Ahsa Province of Saudi Arabia, over to Arab Shias, so that the Salafis do not have any money to finance jihadi and madrassa networks in the Indian Subcontinent. It would not be bad, if Hejaz, the region containing the two holy mosques of Islam, are also taken over by the Shia.
  4. Shut down the whole of West and Gulf for Pakistanis. They should become pariahs and be deported and no new ones allowed in. All remittances should dry up. Again it is a question of how we influence the Anglo-American world, Europe and Gulf monarchies.
  5. Break up Pakistan to make it more manageable for India.
  6. Make the Pakistani Feudals dependent on trade with India, and make the jihadi networks dependent on funding by the feudals.
Just some thoughts!
Last edited by RajeshA on 07 Jun 2011 01:32, edited 1 time in total.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by KLNMurthy »

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Raman wrote:Guys, can we learn to disagree without being disagreeable? The tone of conversation is unnecessarily brash and rude.
ok, I will stop because it is causing some indigestion.

ok, so let us agree to disagree, shall we? I will posit that ISI are just a bunch of nice folks with their compulsions. Let us try to understand their POV and not be narrow minded, ok?. If that makes you sick, let us just agree to disagree and have a beer afterwords. Wonderful!
Understanding ISI POV is useful for those who would prevail over them.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by svinayak »

Raja Ram wrote: This entity definitely did the bidding of the Western backers and also concentrated on India. The objective was not just the bringing down of Soviet power and communism, but it was always directed against India as well.
So true. Easy to get confused with Cold war
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by ramana »

Well Indina elite thinks the Cold War was also theirs. Hence the confusion.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by harbans »

and consider that Pakistan becomes India's munna that Pakistanis, vipers as they continue to be, do not attack India or Indian interests; but they continue with the rest of their evolution and become a jihadi monster of unimaginable proportions for the rest of the world.

Rajesh Ji..???? WTF!
Last edited by harbans on 07 Jun 2011 05:09, edited 3 times in total.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Prem »

Christopher Hitchens Goes Nuclear On Pakistan
The Great Fiction was that Pakistan is an ally of the United States. The Great Fiction was that US "engagement" with Pakistan is a functional policy. The Great Fiction was that Pakistan is anything but a failed state with nuclear weapons.The argument for continuing the US policy of "engagement" with Pakistan basically boils down to this: We have to, so we can keep an eye on the nukes. Christopher Hitchens, in an impassioned piece for Vanity Fair, argues that to continue the policy of engagement with Pakistan is delusional, shameful and ultimately self-defeating. He writes:
If we ever ceased to swallow our pride, so I am incessantly told in Washington, then the Pakistani oligarchy might behave even more abysmally than it already does, and the situation deteriorate even further. This stale and superficial argument ignores the awful historical fact that, each time the Pakistani leadership did get worse, or behave worse, it was handsomely rewarded by the United States. We have been the enablers of every stage of that wretched state’s counter-evolution, to the point where it is a serious regional menace and an undisguised ally of our worst enemy, as well as the sworn enemy of some of our best allies. How could it be “worse” if we shifted our alliance and instead embraced India, our only rival in scale as a multi-ethnic and multi-religious democracy, and a nation that contains nearly as many Muslims as Pakistan? How could it be “worse” if we listened to the brave Afghans, like their former intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh, who have been telling us for years that we are fighting the war in the wrong country?
If we continue to deny or avoid this inescapable fact, then we really are dishonoring, as well as further endangering, our exemplary young volunteers. Why was the raid on Abbottabad so rightly called “daring”? Because it had to be conducted under the radar of the Pakistani Air Force, which “scrambled” its jets and would have brought the Black Hawks down if it could. That this is true is bad enough in all conscience. That we should still be submitting ourselves to lectures and admonitions from General Kayani is beyond shameful.
http://www.businessinsider.com/christop ... z1OXbC5GEg
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Prem »

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... n-Pakistan
China declines to build naval base in Pakistan
Chinese National Defence Minister Liang Guanglie has dismissed out-of-court suggestions that Beijing was carving out “a permanent naval presence” in India's neighbourhood in South Asia.
Answering questions at a plenary session of the 10th Asia Security Summit, organised here by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, General Liang disclaimed moves to build naval bases at Gwadar in Pakistan and at a Sri Lankan port.
Emphasising his credentials as a member of the Chinese State Council and Central Military Commission, he said “we will have a very serious and careful study of an issue of such importance to the government and the military” like the reported move for establishing naval bases in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Indeed, “we will have exact plans and set up a panel to discuss it” if the move were for real. However, “I haven't heard of it,” said General Liang, delivering a calibrated political punch-line.
Asked by Manish Tewari, Congress party's spokesman, to spell out China's core interests in South Asia and the Indian Ocean area, General Liang said: “The core interests include anything that is related to sovereignty, stability, and form of government. China is now pursuing socialism. If there is any attempt to reject this path, it will touch upon China's core interests. Or, if there is any attempt to [encourage] any part of China to secede, that also touches upon China's core interests related to our land, sea, or air. Then, anything that is related to China's national [economic and soci
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16268
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by SwamyG »

putnanja wrote:
Sadler wrote:If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.
I totally agree with this, except I would change the word "hindus" to "Indians"..............
Exactly. His comment is to incite or touch the raw nerves of Hindus; and pull in more support for his point of view via emotional tugging. My first thought was he should have said "Indians".
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sadler »

SwamyG wrote: Exactly. His comment is to incite or touch the raw nerves of Hindus; and pull in more support for his point of view via emotional tugging. My first thought was he should have said "Indians".
Not quite. I did not mean to say "Indians" and therefore did not write "Indians." An attack on a church in India with the slaughter of innocent indian christians (or the jewish equivalent) would evoke a far greater (emotive) response in the US than would the murder of an equal number of hindus. I will plead mea culpa to blunt talk. Even the LET trial in the US is because some of the victims were my fellow jews and americans. Were it not for these six (?)-odd victims, there would be no such trial in the US and news coverage of the Nov 26 carnage would disappear from US media and american conciousness without a trace.

I have no need to be self-important and therefore do not require BRF or anyone else to stroke my ego via "emotional tugging." I'd rather you accuse me of being full of $hit; i can take that. Please dont go reading between the lines where i am concerned; I have no use for subtlety. Peace.

Added later: Once the US withdraws from Afg and leaves the Porkis with the annual share of baksheesh, the re-direction of porki terrorists on to Indian soil will elicit nary a peep from the US. No matter how horrendous the terror attacks against India. It will be back to the pre-9/11 days with the US lumping India and porkistan together in a repugnant "equal-equal." Perhaps then I might get to say QED.
Last edited by Sadler on 07 Jun 2011 06:27, edited 1 time in total.
Manny
BRFite
Posts: 859
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 22:16
Location: Texas

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Manny »

I am totally with Sadler here. I agree with him completely. I appreciate the "secular/"Leftist" crowd who do not want to distinguish between Hindus (Sikhs, Jains included) vs others. But in as far as America and the west is concerned. They care more about Christians of the world than Hindus. This is how I see Americans and the west.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by svinayak »

This is true and agree with Sadler
UBanerjee
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 01:41
Location: Washington DC

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by UBanerjee »

Sadler wrote: Added later: Once the US withdraws from Afg and leaves the Porkis with the annual share of baksheesh, the re-direction of porki terrorists on to Indian soil will elicit nary a peep from the US. No matter how horrendous the terror attacks against India. It will be back to the pre-9/11 days with the US lumping India and porkistan together in a repugnant "equal-equal." Perhaps then I might get to say QED.
This is bandied about on BRF a lot but IMO it is incorrect thinking. It is a simple "reversion to the status quo". American admin. would love to go back to those days, but the cat is already out of the bag.

Besides which, Great Game 2.0 considerations about CA (see http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1105136) means US is going to make noise about leaving Afgh. but will have some presence there indefinitely.
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... ntPage=all

Folks, this article which Prem linked is a must read. It basically calls Americans stupid suckers.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:
For a moment, I would like us to simply close our eyes (to reality and probability) and consider that Pakistan becomes India's munna; that Pakistanis, vipers as they continue to be, do not attack India or Indian interests; but they continue with the rest of their evolution and become a jihadi monster of unimaginable proportions for the rest of the world. In essence Pakistan becomes India's kitten and the world's man-eater.

It can only be possible if all of Pakistan's watering holes in the world become poisoned, and India remains as the only watering hole left for Pakistanis. What does India need to do for that?
In fact I had a similar train of thought although the vision I has was different. Pakistan's watering holes in the world are indeed already becoming poisoned. That does not mean that India should let toxic Pakistanis into India. However - as I said earlier there are two levels of existence" for any country. Level 1 is subsistence level with a hand to mouth existence, people living off food grown in the land, buffeted occasionally by natural disasters, migrating from one place to another as a result.

This was the model until perhaps a few centuries ago. But modern industrial economies changed all that, creating a Level 2 of existence. A modern economy requires trade, and in that trade you import what you don't have and export what you can. If you have a mineral such as oil you export that. If you can export agricultural produce like New Zealand that is fine. Or else you need to have an manufacturing economy like China or just plain tourism. If you have none of these it's back to subsistence economy. But in the old days you could migrate. If your people are considered toxic you can't even migrate. All migration will be inside your own borders where people will fight and kill for resources.

Pakistan is a Level 1 economy. It made forays into a higher level with some manufacture (value added agro produce like textiles and leather goods), tourism and export of manpower. That manpower export has now become toxic and the competition for textiles is high. Pakistan has no alternative other than to sink into a subsistence level economy. Many countries still exist that way. Why not Pakistan?

In the old days a country that had a powerful army could conquer other lands and loot would improve the economy, apart from the provision of employment driven by the military conquest. You need people to support the army and that generates employment and the lot supports the economy. The people of the conquered land "can go to hell". This was "normal" in the world until just 200 years ago. But the industrial age put an end to that. "Conquest" and "colonial power" reached their zenith with some countries getting modern arms before others and conquering and looting the whole world. But once the world was conquered infighting set in, everyone got similar arms and colonialism collapsed.

Pakistan is a child of the colonial mindset in which a military class got "allies" with an ultimate goal of "conquest". For the military elite of Pakistan, nurtured by the last dregs of the British empire and later by the new maharaja - the USA, conquest variously meant conquest of Kashmir and/or conquest of India. But the era of conquest has moved on. It is no longer as easy as it used to be to conquer a land and declare "to hell with the conquered people" simply because guns are available to everyone. Even holding Tibet or Afghanistan or Iraq require a mix of sealing borders and attempting to "win over" a population. That means conquest is expensive, unlike the free looting and genocide of an earlier era. The USA has fed Pakistan's conquest mindset. The US had not figured that out until 1965. After 1965 Pakistan's "conquest" mindset had to go covert. They used the US's (and former colonial) "global" tactics of subversion and said "if not conquest, sow the seeds of violence and chaos for possible future control". Pakistan's conquest policy has failed.

Pakistan's only available future is as a toxic nation with no useful means of building an economy that is integrated with the rest of the world. Internal strife and infighting is to be expected in a country like Pakistan and that is exactly what is happening. The only way to build up a future for Pakistan in the eyes of "well meaning foreigners" like the USA would be to open up trade with India apart from training (education) of Pakistanis to lead a modern life. But the USA does not understand the rabid hatred of Hindus that has been built up in Pakistan. There is a tendency to say "Oh Muslims hate Hindus, Hindus hate Muslims so why don't you kiss and make up" Clearly this is a gross misrepresentation of reality - but that reality is difficult to explain.

Muslims and Hindus can and do live together as occurs in India, but Pakistan is a special case of a Muslim nation being created on the basis of hatred for Hindus by a subset of Hindu hating Muslims of pre-1947 India. There is no way India's relationship with the people of Pakistan can be normalised until this poisonous indoctrination is removed. But the way forward is to first stop arming and funding the champions of the ideology of hate. Like Sadler said the USA would be content to fund the ideology of hate as long as it did not attack white Christians because India and Hindus are irrelevant and do not appear in the consciousness of the US as anything but a wild tribal and obsolete mindset. Which is exactly the view that is convenient for Pakistaniyat. Pakistan in fact spent decades fighting India/Hindus alone while appearing "secular" to their American financiers and armorers. It was India successful integration of its own Muslims and the earlier creation of Bangladesh that killed Pakistan's plan. The Muslims of the subcontinent were no longer represented by Pakistan and the morons desperately tried to seek uniqueness in islam. With Saudi funds and Wahhabism - that refuge in Islam turned Pakistanis against the USA.

But how to explain this complex history to "our American friends"?
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sadler »

That's about as succinct a summation of what drives porkistan and the asinine US policy I've ever read.

And you are also correct in that there's no way in hell you will be able to explain it to a US audience that has an attention span of an ADD-afflicted juvenile. Unless you can neatly package what you've said above as "judeo-christian"-derived parables, which can further be distilled into crisp headlines, your cause is sunk. For anything longer (and remotely cerebral), you will hear this ADD-afflicted juvie state nonchalantly "pass the mustard" and move onto the latest thang that catches his/her fancy (beyonce, justin bieber, lady gaga......).
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by arun »

vdutta wrote:^^ yes it is. i never forget faces of pigs
http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/articles/108/article_2293.asp
Hi V Dutta,

First things first………………..

Nice job in proving the fact that the picture purportedly released by HUJI claiming to be a post death picture of Pakistani origin Islamic Terrorist Ilyas Kashmiri was bunkum 8) .

Meanwhile Amir Mir in The News on the same topic without disclosing the fact that that the intended deception was not discovered by him:

HuJI posts fake pix of Kashmiri’s body

As an aside it would not surprise me in the least that the so called HUJI press release and photo was a fabrication by a member of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan's Press Corps to gouge money out of credulous non-Pakistani research/news outfits :wink: .
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by ramana »

Great summation shiv.

Mind if its converted to slides 12-20?
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

SwamyG wrote:VikramS: Hope the information in this blog provides some useful tid-bits. http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2010 ... story.html to understand some of the emotions of BRFites.
Thanks for the links. They do give an overview of the relationship quite well. I have a few questions.

1. Do you think there were gross inaccuracies in the negative US portrayal of India? Or what was bad for India was the focus on the negatives only. Was there no positive mention of India or Indic culture prior to the 90s?

2. I have often heard the notion of a general hatred of all things Indic as the primary driver of US policy towards India. Though your links do give some insight, they also highlight the fact that it was US interests' (as perceived by them) which shaped US policy. Further it seems to be the case that it was JLN who decided NOT to come into the US sphere of influence. I need to learn more about how this anti-Indic attitude guides US FP.

3. From what I have learnt over time, the US academia has had a significant role to play in shaping the anti-Indic attitudes. The one big challenge with social sciences is that it is very subjective. You can not disprove anything with a scientific experiment. Disparaging existing theories and proving them wrong is a herculean task since the people who are going to pass judgement are the same folks who have spent a life-time developing and propagating those theories. However we are also at a point where thanks to access to information, the hold of the academia in defining the right-wrong is going to diminish significantly.
Q: How can we Indics both in India and the West do to break this academic log-jam. Perhaps Indians need to learn from China when it comes to spreading influence in whatever passes for civil society in the US.


And I finally come to an issue which we often neglect. There is a undeniable element of truth when it comes to the negatives of Indian society. While there is a lot of change happening, as a society, we do not see it as the top priority. Even the very basics like a functional toilet for all (very easily achieved by Sulabh) is not seen as a vital, even though the economic loss is enormous (medical issues, lost of productivity etc.). I have also alluded to why non-caste based Indic religions be spread among those who have suffered in the past, instead of leaving them as easy pickings for soul-harvesters. We may have had our excuses and reasons in the past but circa 2011 the primary cause is apathy.
Last edited by VikramS on 07 Jun 2011 07:34, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:Great summation shiv.

Mind if its converted to slides 12-20?
Ramana if anything I have said is useful to anyone I would be glad to see it used. Without attribution or credit if need be. The message is more important than the messenger.
UBanerjee
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 01:41
Location: Washington DC

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by UBanerjee »

Sadler wrote:That's about as succinct a summation of what drives porkistan and the asinine US policy I've ever read.

And you are also correct in that there's no way in hell you will be able to explain it to a US audience that has an attention span of an ADD-afflicted juvenile. Unless you can neatly package what you've said above as "judeo-christian"-derived parables, which can further be distilled into crisp headlines, your cause is sunk.
You are Jewish-American, are you not? India should be sold as Israel has been. Of course it is a harder job selling Hindus than Jews. Perhaps impossible, who knows? But then we don't need 400% backing like US to Israel. Truthfully we don't need backing at all; however any positive number would be better than negative!
Sadler
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 30 Oct 2005 10:26
Location: USA-ISRAEL

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sadler »

UBanerjee wrote: You are Jewish-American, are you not? India should be sold as Israel has been. Of course it is a harder job selling Hindus than Jews. Perhaps impossible, who knows? But then we don't need 400% backing like US to Israel. Truthfully we don't need backing at all; however any positive number would be better than negative!
If you dont mind, could you post the above in the India-Israel thread, and we can take it up there. I'd hate to have attention diverted away from this porki thread. Shalom.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by svinayak »

VikramS wrote:
And I finally come to an issue which we often neglect. There is a undeniable element of truth when it comes to the negatives of Indian society. While there is a lot of change happening, as a society, we do not see it as the top priority. Even the very basics like a functional toilet for all (very easily achieved by Sulabh) is not seen as a vital, even though the economic loss is enormous (medical issues, lost of productivity etc.). I have also alluded to why non-caste based Indic religions be spread among those who have suffered in the past, instead of leaving them as easy pickings for soul-harvesters. We may have had our excuses and reasons in the past but circa 2011 the primary cause is apathy.
Why should another ocuntry comment on it and use it to create an image. Is the change to fix it for other s to see or is it for the people
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

Acharya wrote:
VikramS wrote:
And I finally come to an issue which we often neglect. There is a undeniable element of truth when it comes to the negatives of Indian society. While there is a lot of change happening, as a society, we do not see it as the top priority. Even the very basics like a functional toilet for all (very easily achieved by Sulabh) is not seen as a vital, even though the economic loss is enormous (medical issues, lost of productivity etc.). I have also alluded to why non-caste based Indic religions be spread among those who have suffered in the past, instead of leaving them as easy pickings for soul-harvesters. We may have had our excuses and reasons in the past but circa 2011 the primary cause is apathy.
Why should another ocuntry comment on it and use it to create an image. Is the change to fix it for other s to see or is it for the people
They are not commenting, they are forming an opinion.

The thinking here is that there is a deeply-ingrained bias against Indic culture which guides US actions.

This actually might be a chicken/egg issue. Were the negative perceptions created to justify anti-Indic actions or did the negative actions result from the negative perceptions.

Assuming it is the negative perception which led to negative actions the challenge is how to address it. Understanding how that bias came about, how it is nurtured and why it continues is important if those opinions were to be sent in a more positive direction.
UBanerjee
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 01:41
Location: Washington DC

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by UBanerjee »

VikramS wrote: This actually might be a chicken/egg issue. Were the negative perceptions created to justify anti-Indic actions or did the negative actions result from the negative perceptions.
This negative perception thing is given too much weight. We can see this because Americans had a generally negative perception of all non-European cultures at some point or another. They may have a few positive impressions but filtered through the "exotic". When that culture becomes wealthier and more powerful they take more notice.

There were some very hoary and jaundiced views of Chinese/Japanese just 50 years ago. With the Chinese there still are to an extent (with some reason).

For example the Chinese were associated with foot-binding, eating rats and dogs, 'death by thousand cuts', despotism, decadence, emotionless, and so on. Some exotic aspects were seen positively. During WW2 and earlier Japanese were viewed very negatively. Remember these are also 'pagan' cultures.

India was seen very negatively because of images of poverty and famine propagated by the British which prejudiced Americans latched on to. And because of the Hindu idols which were seen as demonic- more alien than Far Eastern & Greco-Roman pagan aesthetics. Again like the Chinese some exotic aspects were seen positively- such as legend of Gandhi, or Kama Sutra, and so on.

Nonetheless nowadays this is only part of the narrative regarding India. Watching economic prosperity and tolerance does influence people.
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

BTW This Vanity Fair seems to have some fetish for Pakistansi. In a TOTALLY unrelated (but very sickening article) the author states

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... rentPage=6
The feds are out looking for traffickers the way they’re all out looking for terrorists, going into some Pakistani’s shop.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Arjun »

VikramS wrote:They are not commenting, they are forming an opinion.

The thinking here is that there is a deeply-ingrained bias against Indic culture which guides US actions.

This actually might be a chicken/egg issue. Were the negative perceptions created to justify anti-Indic actions or did the negative actions result from the negative perceptions.

Assuming it is the negative perception which led to negative actions the challenge is how to address it. Understanding how that bias came about, how it is nurtured and why it continues is important if those opinions were to be sent in a more positive direction.
Have no idea what lead to this OT discussion on TSP thread !

But I seriously don't get your logic here. Are you saying a religious / racial bias can always be fixed by the party facing the bias or that they should even try to? Would that have been your recommendation to the Jews facing the Nazi gas chambers that they try and understand where the bias of the Nazis is coming from and try and fix it?
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sum »

Pakistan: shakier than ever before
If the first quarter of the year laid bare the extent of intolerance in Pakistani society following two high-profile assassinations over the blasphemy law, the month of May forced the nation to look at itself. Many have turned away from the reflection — blaming the mirror for what it shows up — but some have redoubled their efforts to question the choices that Pakistan has made over the past several decades, bringing the nation to the point where its very existence as a functional state has come into question.

No doubt, Pakistan has had more than its fair share of upheavals since 1947. But no one can recall a time when the system seemed so shaky as it is today with terrorism, sectarianism, rising intolerance, an economy that grew at 2.4 per cent in the outgoing fiscal, widespread and increasing poverty amid pockets of plenty bordering on profligacy, power and gas shortages, crippling inflation, little or no investment, high unemployment levels, flight of capital — ironically, enough, in some cases to Bangladesh — a fledgling democracy plagued with a hand-to-mouth existence… And, now, a security establishment exposed to the core by the events of May 2011.

It was as if the last façade had crumbled. Not so much by the biggest news of the decade — the quiet finale of the most extensive manhunt of history on May 2 in Abbottabad — but by the attack on the naval airbase, PNS Mehran, 20 days later. Six terrorists penetrated a high-security facility of the Pakistan Navy, destroyed two aircraft and held out against the elite forces of the armed services for well over 12 hours with two of them even managing to escape, ripping apart the painstakingly cultivated legend of the invincibility of Pakistan's men in uniform.

While the U.S. use of superior stealth technology was cited as a reason for its helicopters flying in and out of the country unnoticed to take out al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, the armed forces had no explanation for how such a high-security facility housing crucial assets of the Navy could have been breached so easily. They were left fumbling for answers, issuing clarifications stating that someone as senior as the Chief of Naval Staff had been misquoted by the media — a rarity in a country where the media are not known to take too many liberties with the armed forces. And, again, it was the civilian government which had to come up to do the fire-fighting vis-à-vis the public perception for something which has always been so out of its domain.

Though the budget of the military and intelligence agencies is beyond parliamentary scrutiny — a point flagged repeatedly by the former Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif — Parliament and the Defence Committee of the Cabinet were invoked to reiterate confidence in the capacity of the armed services and intelligence agencies to meet all threats to national security at a time when they were coming in for considerable ridicule. They were the butt of post-Abbottabad jokes — again a first — and the sarcasm got sharper after the PNS Mehran attack with people taking digs galore at the “specialized businesses” that the armed services have diversified into over the years including property, cement, fertilizers, bakeries and cornflakes; the message being these preoccupations leave them with little time to defend themselves, let alone the country!

But these jokes and caustic remarks like that of leading rights activist Asma Jehangir — who called the generals ``duffers'' and urged them to return to their barracks with whatever they have amassed and let people decide the destiny of this country — do not take away the reality that Pakistan has some hard choices to make. Some of this open criticism may tone down following the chilling murder of journalist Syed Saleem Shahzad — widely believed to have met his death at the hands of intelligence agencies for knowing too much — but the hard choices staring Pakistan in the face will not go away. And, even if addressed, they will take a long time to show some results as the need of the hour is to “re-engineer Pakistan” that has been built into a security state driven by a systematically manufactured hatred for India.

According to former Chief of Naval Staff Fasih Bokhari, Pakistan has interpreted the word “security” only in military terms. And “strategic depth” has always meant getting more territory while it should have essentially meant expansion of the economy. Stating that the blame game will not get the nation anywhere, he observed at a public discourse that Pakistan needs to review its national identity, figure out its national purpose — take it away from hatred for India — and identify vital national interests.

Pointing out that Pakistan opted to be an Islamic Republic, his question was “does that make us first Pakistani or Islamic?” More critically this, in his opinion and that of lawyer Basharat Qadir, constitutionally sanctioned religious discrimination in Pakistan and created two categories of citizens; one category more equal than the other.

Drawing attention to the muddle that has been created in the Constitution, columnist Adnan Rehmat says: “For starters, Article 25 in its Part II titled ‘Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy' guarantees equality of citizens while Article 20 guarantees the freedom to profess and practise a religion of your choice. Article 17 guarantees the freedom of association and Article 26 promises non-discrimination. And yet in the Constitution's Part I, titled ‘Preamble,' Article 2 declares only one faith, Islam, to be the state religion while Articles 42 and 91(3) dealing with the oaths of the offices of President and Prime Minister mandate them to be only Muslims. This despite Article 8 guaranteeing that laws inconsistent with or in derogation of fundamental rights to be void.”

Now this is a fundamental question that is unlikely to be addressed in the near future. Truth be told, it is way too much of a hot potato to be even touched at the moment. Why, even speaking about it publicly has become a life-threatening issue, so much so that the Jinnah Institute — an Islamabad-based think tank — kept the Pakistani media out of a function organised this week to launch its report on the status of religious minorities in Pakistan.

In fact, the PNS Mehran attack has shown how deep and widespread the malaise is. It is now no longer a matter of speculation that the terrorists had inside help. Such an attack would not have been possible without it. As a reaction, the armed services have apparently banned the activities of ‘Tableeghi jamats' (Islamic preaching groups) in cantonments. But, even if cantonments are insulated from their influence, they are deeply entrenched in Pakistani society and the rank and file of the services are exposed to them everywhere. Then there is the use of what security analyst Imtiaz Gul describes as “Islamic motivation” within the forces. “What are we preparing the Army for? To defend Islam or Pakistan?” And, this conditioning runs through entire society; brought up as it is on a curriculum of doctored history, a never-ending search for strategic depth in Afghanistan and the “obsession” with “Enemy No. 1” India.

Given the ground realities in Pakistan, voices of reason — which say abandon Kashmir, give up dreams of making Afghanistan a Pakistani protectorate, let's rebuild Pakistan brick-by-brick — can at best flag these issues but taking on a radical ideology popularised by the state is not something civil society can do alone. This transformation has to be led by the state but, from all indications, it is still unwilling to make that course correction.

India remains the ‘Enemy No. 1;' providing the rationale for Pakistan having the fastest-growing nuclear programme in the world even as global concerns of it falling into the hands of terrorists is used by the propaganda machinery to whip up the spectre of the Hindu-Christian-Zionist axis tightening the screws on the country to take away the lone ‘Muslim bomb.
Amazing article, coming from the WKK Hindu. Absolutely no mention of India having to accommodate small brother etc and saying it as it is...Read it all
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sum »

China's ‘hold' stopped designation of LeT, Jaish leaders
Why did China place a “technical hold” on an Indian request to impose sanctions of three high-ranking Pakistan-based operatives of the Laskhar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed?

A confidential cable ( 221726) dated August 21, 2009 sent by the American Embassy in Beijing to Washington quotes a Chinese Foreign Ministry official as saying this was because India had failed to provide sufficient information to merit such action.

The U.S. State Department was of the view that China's hold on listing the three terrorists was done at the behest of Pakistan.

Listing of suspected terrorists and terrorist organisations under the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 obliges countries to impose sanctions against them. And China, which wields a veto in the UNSC, is empowered to block listings.

Chinese Foreign Ministry official, Shen Yinyin, Deputy Director of the United Nations Affairs Division, told a U.S. Embassy official that Beijing would not lift its hold on the listing of Abdul Rahman Makki, Azham Cheema and Mohammad Masood Azhar Alvi in the absence of adequate information. The cable quotes him as adding that Beijing “is very serious” about its commitment to the UNSC Resolution 1267.

Abdul Rahman Makki is the LeT/Jud leader Hafiz Saeed's brother-in-law and is considered the number two man in the organisation.

He heads the LeT/Jud political affairs department and is a fund raiser. His name was listed in the diary of David Headley, the main prosecution witness in the 26/11 trial in a U.S. federal court in Chicago.

Azam Cheema was the LeT intelligence chief and a key advisor of its senior leader Zaki-ur-Rahman. He is seen as the mastermind behind the July 2007 Mumbai train bombings.
VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

Arjun:
It started from this post
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1105193

and a follow-up link
http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2010 ... story.html

Lot of gurus have alluded to this deep-seated loathing of Indic civilization as the prime motivation of anti-India policies. I am trying to understand those better.

And sir, if you want to use analogies please use something more appropriate to the situation. America, her strategic thinking, her public opinion are constantly evolving and are amenable to influence. How can you compare them to Nazis?
Locked