The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 17:10

http://newsleaks.in/crpf-learning-yoga- ... my-within/

CRPF learning yoga to bust enemy within

=========================

Should I keep going on?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Jun 2011 17:13

good compilation, sanku ji..

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 08 Jun 2011 17:16

Okay I understand that his ire is not against security forces but still the way he communicated it was quite wrong. Anyway fighting with police in the street will not earn anyone brownie points in this fight. Half of the middle class already ran away seeing the saffron colour the other half I am sure will now think twice because of that statement.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 17:18

chaanakya wrote:
80 hrs is the time after which life threatening symptoms would occur in a starving human body.
Nothing would happen to doggy as he is not human

Do you have any statistics regarding stress that the person is under.If not kindly read before replying.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 17:18

What we see in the BR phenomenon is nothing uncommon to India...Since independence, people have tried riding the bandwagon of pertinent, and sometimes non-pertinent but emotive issues to reap political dividends..

Think NTR riding the wave of "Telugu pride" to become CM and then literally a national level kingmaker...Think VP Singh donning the mantle of "corruption crusader" to gain PM-ship..Think LK Advani/BJP riding the mandir bandwagon to move from 2 seats to 86, starting the journey towards political relevance...Think of Laloo/Mulayam and entire OBC-brigade riding the Mandal bandwagon...Think of indeed K Chandrashekhar Rao in recent times riding the bandwagon of Telengana (albeit for far lesser spoils)..

One can add BR now to that list, (trying) riding the corruption bandwagon for political dividends...Nothing wrong in that, barring just one...Which is, unlike any of the other cases, masking the clearly political ambition in altruistic rubbish...And therefore avoiding answers to political scrutiny...

Which is where the issue with this non-movement lies..It has given the govt the ruse to tar all current and potential civil society movements, the really serious ones against corruption with the same brush of triviality and covert political ambition...

There lies the rub for us as citizens really...

As a political "movement", the BR stuff is dead before arrival..there is minimal political space in India for someone espousing homophobia, death penalty for black money earners (without defninig what it means), replacing English in schools, an economic paradigm based on banning 100/500 rupee notes et al...Such antediluvianism has been shown the door, not once, but repeatedly...

But really, if BR thinks otherwise, he should have the courage to fight it out politically...Else, this is good stuff for prime time tele, better than saas bahu stuff...At least the TV channels would be saying, lage raho!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 17:20

somnath wrote: There lies the rub for us as citizens really...

Who is us, you, MMS, Yuvraj and ?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 17:21

Atri wrote:good compilation, sanku ji..

This thread is about get Sanku-fied Atri-ji.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jun 2011 17:21

Manish,the whole lot/list you mentioned are included.I've said gurus and godmen because they seem at this point of time to be the ones who exercise the most influence,most prevalent."Sant" Bhindranwale was also one! One must also add "Gandhians" to the list.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 17:23

Anna Hazare has set a deadline of 15th Aug for the Lok pal Bill...While I dont agree with some of the tenor used by the AH team, as well as some of their demands, at least this is an honest effort they are making...

Someone wants to be creatively disruptive, this is the way...Clear, focused, transparent and intellectually robust in articulation...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 17:23

Dilbu wrote:Okay I understand that his ire is not against security forces but still the way he communicated it was quite wrong. Anyway fighting with police in the street will not earn anyone brownie points in this fight. Half of the middle class already ran away seeing the saffron colour the other half I am sure will now think twice because of that statement.

Dilbu boss, things are moving towards a point where people will have to take a stand soon enough.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 17:25

somnath wrote:Anna Hazare has set a deadline of 15th Aug for the Lok pal Bill...While I dont agree with some of the tenor used by the AH team, as well as some of their demands, at least this is an honest effort they are making...

Someone wants to be creatively disruptive, this is the way...Clear, focused, transparent and intellectually robust in articulation...

You dont realize that AH and BR are left hook right jab by the same force right?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 17:30

Thanks for the clarification Philip, I always knew your heart was in the right place.Just wanted to make sure people do not misunderstand.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jun 2011 17:42

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 770710.cms

Beginning his day-long hunger strike at Rajghat to protest against corruption and the recent police brutality, the 73-year-old-Gandhi devotee Anna Hazare said that if the Lokpal Bill was not passed, he would fast unto death at Jantar Mantar from August 16.

Anna described his movement as the second battle of independence but underlined Gandhi's non-violent path. He said his Wednesday fast was to condemn the police action on Ramdev's supporters at Ramlila ground. Anna likened the police brutality to the British repression of Indians in Jalianwala Bagh on April 13, 1919. He advised his supporters to refrain from violence. "The government is very powerful, if we indulge in violence, it will give the government an excuse to quash the movement," he warned.

The Gandhian reiterated, "The government has forgotten that people are the masters and not the government. They need to understand that we are one, not different."

Thousands of Anna supporters came out to join his fast despite severe heat and made their way through heavy police presence at the venue. Nationalistic songs in catchy beats were sung and cheered at passionately by Anna supporters. Baba Ramdev's Bharat Swabhiman Trust activists were also seen among the massive crowd. Lots of people have been stopped ahead of barricades because of the heavy turnout.

The social activist and leader of the 'Indian Against Corruption' movement Arvind Kejriwal said that if his agitation became communal, he would be the first person to leave it. Kejriwal was referring to the government accusation that the anti-corruption movement was a communal Hindu right wing sponsored movement.

In an offensive against the government, he said, "The ministers have been elected but why are they acting so arrogantly and threatening us?" He challenged the UPA ministers to declare their assets and the political parties to declare their sources of funding. "The government asked us to declare our assets and we did it in 24 hours. We showed where we got and spent money, how much was spent on Ramlila fast. Now we demand the ministers and the political parties to do it too. Let the Congress, the BJP and all other parties give details of the expenses on their rallies for the last five years."

When Kejriwal mentioned the union minister Kapil Sibal's name, the audience booed and yelled 'shame, shame, Kapil Sibal hai, hai, Kapil Sibal murdabad.' The booing went on for at least five minutes. Incidentally, Rajghat falls under the Lok Sabha constituency from where Kapil Sibal has been elected.

Cries of 'shame, shame' became louder when Kejriwal mentioned that the government had refused to bring the prime minister, ministers and horse trading within the ambit of lokpal.

Kejriwal announced that the next agitation would be on electoral reforms and right to justice. He received huge applause.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jun 2011 17:50

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 774895.cms

Rights activist Arvind Kejriwal on Wednesday launched a scathing attack on HRD minister Kapil Sibal, asking him what was wrong in civil society members calling ministers "liars, cheats and conspirators."

Addressing protesters at the day-long fast site of Anna Hazare in Rajghat, he said Sibal has raised questions about civil society calling ministers liars and cheats.

"If we have said so, what is wrong in it? There is so much corruption, is it not cheating? If we are cheated, shouldn't we call them liars? Why shouldn't we call them conspirators?

"This government is indulging in conspiracy as we have seen in the Shanti Bhushan CD episode," he said, a day after he rebutted Sibal's statement claiming that they had never used such words.

On the question of division among civil society, Kejriwal shot back at politicians saying there were differences in Parliament and they unite only when they want a hike in their salaries.

"When did MPs in Lok Sabha were united on an issue? They are divided always. They get united only once when they want a hike in their salaries. If the civil society is divided, then Parliament is also divided," he said.

Kejriwal also demanded that political parties should make public their funding and the expense it incurred in bringing people to their rallies.

"When we raised our voices for a stronger Lokpal Bill, there were many allegations and we were asked to declare assets and we did that. Now, we are asking the political parties to declare from where they are getting donations?

"Where did you get this money from? Make public how much money they spend in the past five years for bringing people to their rallies. All parties -- Congress, BJP, SP, BSP -- all should do it. Tell us how much money was paid to people to attend your rallies," he said.

On the Lokpal Bill, he said the government wants the Prime Minister out of Lokpal purview. "They want the PM out of it and be allowed to indulge in corruption. They don't want judges or MPs under it. Should we compromise? They said they are committed to bringing this law but if you are keeping everyone out of it, then it will be a blank paper," he said.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jun 2011 17:58

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 774420.cms

Home minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday charged the RSS with being behind Baba Ramdev's anti-corruption campaign, saying the Sangh fountainhead had decided to support anyone raising the corruption issue.

"I think you should know who is behind Baba Ramdev. Go back to March 2011. At a meeting at Puthur in Karnataka, the Akhil Bhatiya Pratinidhi Sabha, which is the apex body of the RSS, decided to support all organisations and individuals that will raise the fight against corruption," he said in an interview to Doordarshan.

The home minister said on April 2, the RSS had announced the formation of an anti-corruption front in which Baba Ramdev is the patron.

Anything wrong with that?? The Home Minister should be proud of the fact that the RSS wants to fight corruption...

Chidambaram said a section of media was engaged in "competitive populist coverage" of the protests movement of Anna Hazare, Baba Ramdev and others and maintained that it undermined parliamentary democracy.

"I think sections of the media, for reasons which I can't spell out, are engaged in competitive populist coverage of these movements. This undermines parliamentary democracy," he said.

The home minister said he supported the civil society speaking against corruption by raising their voice.

"But I don't support elected representatives yielding their obligations and responsibilities to civil society representatives. Let us remember that the foundation of this country is parliamentary democracy," he said.

Chidambaram expressed his sadness over the condition of Rajbala, who was seriously injured during the crackdown on the anti-corruption protesters at Ramlila grounds and said the government has reached out to the family.

Chidambaram said during the police action at Ramlila ground, 39 civilians were injured and all but four were discharged with outpatient treatment.

He said two injured civilians were later discharged while one was undergoing treatment and he was doing fine now.

"It is only Rajbala which had suffered serious injury and she is critical. I am very sad. We have reached out to the family. I wish to say no more in this stage but I sincerely hope that I will have the opportunity to meet the family members," he said.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 08 Jun 2011 18:05

I wish BR and AH had worked together.

To me, it seems BR finds himself in a very confusing territory, whereas the AH group seem, after initial hiccups, found their feet and are willing to tackle the issue in a systematic manner.

Any anti-corruption action, will automatically include the issue of black money to a certain extent.

Having said that an opportunity has been lost by both AH and BR, not dovetailing their demands into a comprehensive whole.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Jun 2011 18:12

Pranay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 774420.cms

quote]Home minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday charged the RSS with being behind Baba Ramdev's anti-corruption campaign, saying the Sangh fountainhead had decided to support anyone raising the corruption issue.

"I think you should know who is behind Baba Ramdev. Go back to March 2011. At a meeting at Puthur in Karnataka, the Akhil Bhatiya Pratinidhi Sabha, which is the apex body of the RSS, decided to support all organisations and individuals that will raise the fight against corruption," he said in an interview to Doordarshan.

The home minister said on April 2, the RSS had announced the formation of an anti-corruption front in which Baba Ramdev is the patron./quote]

Anything wrong with that?? The Home Minister should be proud of the fact that the RSS wants to fight corruption...

quote]Chidambaram said a section of media was engaged in "competitive populist coverage" of the protests movement of Anna Hazare, Baba Ramdev and others and maintained that it undermined parliamentary democracy.

"I think sections of the media, for reasons which I can't spell out, are engaged in competitive populist coverage of these movements. This undermines parliamentary democracy," he said.

The home minister said he supported the civil society speaking against corruption by raising their voice.

"But I don't support elected representatives yielding their obligations and responsibilities to civil society representatives. Let us remember that the foundation of this country is parliamentary democracy," he said./quote]

quote]Chidambaram expressed his sadness over the condition of Rajbala, who was seriously injured during the crackdown on the anti-corruption protesters at Ramlila grounds and said the government has reached out to the family.

Chidambaram said during the police action at Ramlila ground, 39 civilians were injured and all but four were discharged with outpatient treatment.

He said two injured civilians were later discharged while one was undergoing treatment and he was doing fine now.

"It is only Rajbala which had suffered serious injury and she is critical. I am very sad. We have reached out to the family. I wish to say no more in this stage but I sincerely hope that I will have the opportunity to meet the family members," he said./quote]

He is apealing to his what he sees as the core Voters of the Congress. As per the High Command belief, Minorities and Liberals will tolerate the Congress as long as it keeps Hindu Fascists away from power.

Ultimately thier logic is Corruption is everywhere, who cares as long as we win elections. i.e Cash for votes is a non issue since they won the 2009 general elections, PAC report does not exist or everything is wrong since UPA and allies voted against it.

It is upto to the people to deceide whether they are wrong or right.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 18:13

rajanb wrote:Having said that an opportunity has been lost by both AH and BR, not dovetailing their demands into a comprehensive whole

Its not about "groups", its about the agenda...BR's was a clear case of trying to ride on the corruption bandwagon after the govt seemingly capitulated to the AH fast on Lokpal...He has been looking for a start into politics for some time now, and decided to hitch his wagon to AH...

Just look at the guys in the so-called "AH group" and look at BR - one would get the convictions and motivations clearly..

BR is basically a man of (some) charisma and high political ambition who has over-extended himself and hence lost even basic coherence of thought and action - the call to arms being the latest example of that

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 08 Jun 2011 18:31

Last night Manish Tiwari kept saying Anna Hazare has fascist tendencies.

It is funny that people who imposed emergency in 1975, who have misused Art 356 most are calling everyone and anyone fascist.

Edit: If RSS/BJP are fascists and such a threat to the country why doesn't Congress govt ban them.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 08 Jun 2011 18:36

Tamang wrote:Last night Manish Tiwari kept saying Anna Hazare has fascist tendencies.

It is funny that people who imposed emergency in 1975, who have misused Art 356 most are calling everyone and anyone fascist.

George Orwell wrote:It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

What is Fascism

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 08 Jun 2011 18:38

Pranay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 774420.cms

Home minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday charged the RSS with being behind Baba Ramdev's anti-corruption campaign, saying the Sangh fountainhead had decided to support anyone raising the corruption issue.

"I think you should know who is behind Baba Ramdev. Go back to March 2011. At a meeting at Puthur in Karnataka, the Akhil Bhatiya Pratinidhi Sabha, which is the apex body of the RSS, decided to support all organisations and individuals that will raise the fight against corruption," he said in an interview to Doordarshan.

Tomorrow RSS supports Sonia, Chidu will call her fascist too. And if RSS supports Chidu himself, he will commit suicide.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 08 Jun 2011 18:39

1) BR is an Indian citizen with all rights bestowed on him as per Indian constituion. He has the right to protest peacefully with his followers. If more people are present then appropriate permission will have to be taken from the authorities. Considering the mammoth gathering which has been in the news for quite sometime, law and order must have been place to keep the gathering in check. This does not mean attacking innocent women, men and children.

2) Some worthies say BR should stick to yoga. No one can dictate to any Indians who he/she can do. Every Indian is free- he/she can do whatever he likes as per Indian constitution. BR can do yoga, indulge in politics , can have a business empire. Nothing stops him as long as it is legal.

3) Any Indian including BR can talk about corruption. No one can question him or any other Indian. One should not attribute motives.
4) Worthies talk about sadhvi Rithambhara as proof of communialism- pray what are John dayal, Imam bukhari, various fathers (also involved in various scams,), Teetsa setalvad.Geelani, etc Some of them have cases pending against them. Sadhvi has every right to particpate in any gathering. The law has not put her behind bars or stopped her from participating in them.
5) If the intent of the law and order in disrupting the protest was to prevent any communal clashes, why do they adopt different standards to non hindu religions. Law should be applied equally to all Indians because constitution bans discrimination of all types.

6) If the GOI has nothing to hide why cannot it be transparent and say that it is doing the utmost to remove corruption. This issue of black money has been going on for few years, hence GOI had ample time to show some results in the meantime. The reason is GOI is not sincere and is corrupt,hence Common Indian has been forced to come out in support of AH and BR .

7) GOI showed kid gloves in handling AH fast as it was infiltrated by its own people. You cannot lathicharge them for obvious reasons.
8 ) GOI could not do the same to BR and on top of it his favorite colour is saffron both in mind and actions. Easy pickings for the congress to communalise the gathering for non hindu support, along with demonising the Hindus by certain sections of pliant media.

9) Since RG assassination in 1989,congress has been a pale shadow of its itself. It has to take the support of other parties to sustain itself in power. It is trying hard to regain the non hindu Indian citizens by painting BR as a hindu fundamentalist. Vote Loyalty has been lost to the congress. Hence the desperation to regain them at any cost.

10) Despite all the above, will non hindu Indian citizens see thru the deception and go for other non congress parties. only time will tell. Hindu Indian citizens do not count as it will be splintered across all parties.

11) Main advantage congress has is, it will always be the largest party, short of majority. Non BJP parties would always go for congress rather than associate with BJP. Expect another congress led GOI for more years to come unless 4G corruption scam happens nears election time to wipe out congress seats significantly.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jun 2011 19:00

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/world ... &ref=world

LETTER FROM INDIA
In India, Seeking Revolution in a Democracy
By MANU JOSEPH
Published: June 8, 2011

The yoga instructor is the latest mascot of middle-class India’s desperate search for a revolution.

The nascent anti-corruption movement in India was birthed in the philosophy that a full-blown media circus is the only way educated citizens who have no political influence can fight the government. There was much euphoria when it all began in April, with the fast-unto-death campaign of a truly austere man, a former army driver and a social reformer, Anna Hazare. But as the middle class is now learning, it is in the nature of things that if you start a circus, sooner or later the clowns will arrive.

Mr. Hazare had postponed his fast in Delhi by a few days to wait for the cricket World Cup to end. India won the Cup after a gap of nearly three decades, and Mr. Hazare’s fast against political corruption channeled the collective joy of national pride into a festive demonstration against the loathed politicians. Mr. Hazare said he would die of starvation if the government did not set up a new, autonomous institution, called the Jan Lokpal, that would have the power to investigate corruption charges against all arms of the government, including the office of the prime minister and the judiciary. The government, nervously, promised to set up a committee, and Mr. Hazare ended his fast. On Wednesday he fasted again, this time in a daylong, symbolic event to express his dissatisfaction with how the government is approaching the issue of corruption.

Public disgust for politicians has been higher than normal in recent months, following the news media’s exposure of a series of scams running to billions of dollars. Also, the images of good-looking, well-dressed men and women in the Middle East apparently bringing down their dictators through demonstrations and social media have given the urban middle class hope that they, too, can bring about fashionable change — that a government elected by illiterates and semi-literates can be made to surrender to sophisticated public opinion. Mr. Hazare has become the hero of the modern urban elite, many of whom are employees or customers of the very companies accused of offering kickbacks to politicians.

The Indian urban elite are foreigners in their own country. They are the first world trapped inside the third world. They are Western. They do not vote, they have never attended a political rally, they find the Indian political system lowbrow. Their head of state, in spirit, is President Barack Obama of the United States. In a way, they are amateur Indians.

They are of no consequence to Indian politics, but they matter to the Indian economy. The Hindi film industry, for instance, had to turn somewhat modern to keep them interested. Choreographers replaced dark-skinned, inexpensive-looking professional dancers who danced to feed their families with fair, slim, affluent college girls who danced for fun and fame.

In the anti-corruption movement of Mr. Hazare, which the English news channels framed as the happy story of a new middle-class revolution, the urban elite thought they had found a way, through the creation of the Jan Lokpal, to subdue politicians elected by the ignorant masses. But the emergence of Swami Ramdev as the new face of the movement, with his conservative views that include opposition to premarital sex and a lament against the predominance of the English language, has taught the elite that they cannot keep India away from an Indian movement.

Swami Ramdev claims to have “a billion followers,” which is an exaggeration. But he does have a huge following among affluent businessmen, the more conservative middle class and a type of nonresident Indian who is infatuated with the idea that Hindu India was once the greatest civilization on earth.

The citizens’ movement against political corruption is now split into factions: Mr. Hazare and his followers, who want an institution empowered to investigate all branches of the government, including the office of the prime minister; Swami Ramdev and his followers, who have sent conflicting messages regarding the inclusion of the prime minister’s office, and who also want Indian society to be more Indian and less Western; and the sophisticated members of civil society who say that fasts-unto-death are illegal, cheap stunts.

Meanwhile, Mr. Hazare’s supporters have criticized Swami Ramdev for sharing his platform with communal forces hostile to Muslims, but they stand by his fight against corruption. Also, there are factions within factions.

So the citizens’ movement has begun to resemble Indian politics itself — with a crucial difference. While Indian politicians are elected by the people, the reformers do not have that legitimacy. There lies the absurdity of manufacturing mass movements in a democracy. The most influential mass movement in a democracy is democracy itself. In fact, it provides for a revolution once every five years — in a process called elections.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Jun 2011 19:12

From Chidambaram's interview, it seems unlikely that the Lokpal bill will be to the satisfaction of Team Anna.

So what next? Another hunger strike August 16th onwards?

If you are not willing to question the EVMs that got Chidambaram elected in a dubious recount in 2009, you are basically going to have to lump it. Tough shit, man.

All your pleading and outrage will get you nowhere once you accept that the election system is fair.

There are many that have derided the much-banned Rahul Mehta for being obsessed with EVMs, but people will realize, in due course of time, that you can't fix anything else unless you first fix EVMs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 19:28

Baba Ramdev was the first one to talk about corruption in the government. Anna Hazare jumped on his bandwagon and announced his token fast and hijacked the former's movement. When it was seen that AH and his band were govt tools, Ramdev re-launched his campaign. If anyone was opportunistic, it was Anna Hazare and his gang of NGOs who mostly are NAC members aka govt faction. I refuse to call them civil society for that implies others are uncivil.

Even now I dont know what is Anna Hazare really after. A diluted Lokpal bill to preserve INC misrule or a real Omsbundman Act with teeth?

Distances may dim the vision, but not distort the prespective.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jun 2011 19:28

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 776122.cms

Amidst growing demand of the civil society for a strong anti-graft law and confiscation of black money, the Supreme Court on Wednesday sought amendment to the Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA) to root out corruption in the country.

A bench of justices B S Chauhan and Swatanter Kumar also favoured amendment to the Drugs and Cosmetics Act, 1940, to tackle spurious drugs.

"In this country, if there are two laws that need to be changed or amended to act as a deterrent, they are laws relating to anti-corruption and sale of spurious drugs," the bench said while dismissing the appeal of an assistant excise commissioner in a graft case.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Jun 2011 19:39

ramana wrote:Baba Ramdev was the first one to talk about corruption in the government. Anna Hazare jumped on his bandwagon and announced his token fast and hijacked the former's movement. When it was seen that AH and his band were govt tools, Ramdev re-launched his campaign. If anyone was opportunistic, it was Anna Hazare and his gang of NGOs who mostly are NAC members aka govt faction. I refuse to call them civil society for that implies others are uncivil.
Even now I dont know what is Anna Hazare really after. A diluted Lokpal bill to preserve INC misrule or a real Omsbundman Act with teeth?
Distances may dim the vision, but not distort the prespective.

Well , Somnath's version, which BTW, is the democratically elected, secular, non-communal,non-saffron version, would contradict yours. Just saying.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 19:45

somnath wrote: BR is basically a man of (some) charisma and high political ambition who has over-extended himself and hence lost even basic coherence of thought and action - the call to arms being the latest example of that

Going by the random fulminations of those who are only comfortable with a deracinated western India and not any Indian tradition deep rooted in the country, the call to arms seems to have substantially upset them.

Possibly they are scared that their days of misuse of coercive machinery operating outside the ambit of constitution will be challenged. As a rule this class tends to be big time coward and lily liveried in terms of being exceptionally scared of their material well being and willing to go to any lengths to secure their comforts.

Therefore a chance that they wont get their way easily is very perturbing for them.

It could perhaps on the off chance be assumed that they are against armed groups in India, but they show great comfort with Maoists and other groups savaging the state (as opposed to self defence militia and VDCs like Salwa Judum)

In fact I can bet those uncomfortable with Salwa Judum would be uncomfortable here too.

=====================

Meanwhile, the game of trying to play Anna against BR has boomeranged big time, and instead of trying that game both Anna and Baba are being called same names of being RSS agents etc. However the change of strategy seems to have percolated to all the operatives of the dynasty machine and some of them are still toying the two day old line.

However I fully expect a sync up of all those playing the same tune soon enough. Let us wait and see where the convergence will be.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Jun 2011 19:46

ramana wrote: Even now I dont know what is Anna Hazare really after. A diluted Lokpal bill to preserve INC misrule or a real Omsbundman Act with teeth?

Distances may dim the vision, but not distort the prespective.

I think people are over-interpreting Anna Hazare. In fact, it seems that the Govt was trying to use Ramdev against Hazare. Ramdev had made a statement that the PM should not be under Lokpal, and was profusely thanked for it by the team of 4 ministers who met him at the airport. Later, Sibal told Ramdev at Claridges that the deal was off if Anna Hazare showed up on Ramdev's stage. That the attempt by the Govt to manage Ramdev did not work is another story.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Jun 2011 19:48

Neela wrote: Well , Somnath's version, which BTW, is the democratically elected, secular, non-communal,non-saffron version, would contradict yours. Just saying.

My version is that RSS actually pulled a fast one on Congress this time, Anna was sent earlier, which took the left lib mold and BR took main stage shortly afterwards. A left right jab.

The real punch is BR, Anna was a feint to neutralize the DiE attack.

Now its difficult for anyone but the most corrupt and with most deracinated brown sahibs to take on BR while supporting Anna.

kmoksha · Post by **kmoksha** » 08 Jun 2011 19:57

Anna is creation of media hype by MNC controlled media and has connections with Sonia. That is why Swami Ramdev is banned from entering Delhi and Anna is allowed freely to do demonstration in Delhi. Seems law is different for Anna and Swami Ramdev.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Jun 2011 20:01

Pranav wrote:
ramana wrote: Even now I dont know what is Anna Hazare really after. A diluted Lokpal bill to preserve INC misrule or a real Omsbundman Act with teeth?

Distances may dim the vision, but not distort the prespective.
I think people are over-interpreting Anna Hazare. In fact, it seems that the Govt was trying to use Ramdev against Hazare. Ramdev had made a statement that the PM should not be under Lokpal, and was profusely thanked for it by the team of 4 ministers who met him at the airport. Later, Sibal told Ramdev at Claridges that the deal was off if Anna Hazare showed up on Ramdev's stage. That the attempt by the Govt to manage Ramdev did not work is another story.

I feel that the Congress media spin on BR is feeding the over-interpretation.
And Congress is worried about the coagulation of BR and AH. You can smell the Congress's fear here...they are worried that this could go out of control. The scams ( and scams and scams) are turning into something they cannot fathom - and that worries them.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 20:11

^^ There is also the fact that Agnivesh, a wolf in saffron clothing and a psec in saffron is in the AH camp.In my eyes AH becomes suspect for this reason also.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 20:16

ramana wrote:Baba Ramdev was the first one to talk about corruption in the government. Anna Hazare jumped on his bandwagon and announced his token fast and hijacked the former's movement. When it was seen that AH and his band were govt tools, Ramdev re-launched his campaign. If anyone was opportunistic, it was Anna Hazare and his gang of NGOs who mostly are NAC members aka govt faction

???So Baba Ramdev is the first individual to have brought up the issue of public corruption?!

All this Anna-v/s-RD, or Anna and RD discussion is a bit childish...AH is the face of a bunch of people with long records in working on public causes...Arvind Kejriwal, the Bhushans, Kiran Bedi - they have had many many years of public service record in different capacities...I personally dont like the term "civil society" either, for the same reasons (implies that the rest are somehow uncivil), but these guys have a clear motive and transparent agenda...Anna Hazare basically forms the public, indentifiable face of the initiative...As a template for disruptive democratic engagement, its not perfect, but its a model...

RD on the other hand is basically nothing but another political animal in town with high ambitions...As an analogy, Laloo Yadav of 1989 perhaps comes closest, though Laloo had far better understanding of the political variables, and yes, at leasst honesty of purpose - he was ambitious and made no bones about it...Actually, RD is a combination of Laloo and Raj Narain - the ethnic "rustic-ness" and ambition of the former and the brains of the latter!

Anyhow, the Lokpal Bill, even in diluted form, will be an achievement...There are frankly equally credible voices for and against the proposition of the PM being in its ambit - and arguments on both sides are equally valid...So there is no one answer...The Parliament should decide..If Arvind K and Co still have a problem, they should make it a political battle then...They have fought the good fight, they have brought it to a stage where it is incumbent on the govt to act..But beyond PArliament, if they still force the issue, they will lose credibility...

There are far too many doomsayers here talking of civil war, revolution and what not...Wake up! India is changing rapidly, and mostly for the better...Including in the domain of politics, where engagemetn is deepending and widening...Its visible everywhere - election turnouts, pro-incumbency, even in the stories of the likes of Arvind Kejriwal...Its an aspirational India, looking for everything today, and that includes better governance...And increasingly, getting it through the most powerful tool available - electoral votes...BR is a comic sideshow, which unfortunately has helped no one barring a bumbling, pathetically clueless UPA II govt...

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 08 Jun 2011 20:17

Young people in India should come forward to throw the corruption at every level out so that it goes with the previous generation of people who are above 60 and so on. Let next generation live without any corruption for which the present political rulers have to go altogether. Majority of them are corrupt and have earned for many generations. At every level the young people should be organised and trained to expose corruption at every level in governance and nGOs.

It is also essential to monitor the corruption within the NGOS and private organisations including religious organisations who are responsible for their local and foreign accounting.

Corruption should die

by Pooja Dubey Srivastava
Monday 06th, June 2011
http://blogs.siliconindia.com/poojadube ... 72218.html

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 08 Jun 2011 20:26

Arjun wrote:
shaardula wrote:i'm a normal non-commie, i want to understand why ramdev wants a militia.
The more I see of Ramdev, the more and more American he seems to me in his thinking !!

American ?? I rather see him apeing our lovable neighbors to the West ......

Have we forgotten Maulana Abdul Aziz of 'Lal Masjid' fame ?? Remember how he started his movement by mobilizing his students / public to take to the streets to persuade video shops not to sell "vulgar" movies ... something having comman cause with the 'aam janatha'. They held on to what many Pakis called "pure and true Muslim ethic" and what the opposing parties called "fundamental and dogmatic".

Now replace the Maulana's 'Jihad' with the BRD / AH's '2nd Freedom Struggle'.
Our own Baba is pressing similar buttons to garner support. Unfortunately, He has even had to ape the Maulana in the escape episode (mixing with the women and trying to escape in woman attire) ..... the only difference being opting away from a burqa and preferring a 'desi' salwar suit

And .... let's not forget his 'private army' now...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 08 Jun 2011 20:33

^^Given the good Baba's views on homosexuals, his sartorial choice in an attempted disguise is quite interesting, to say the least! The differently oriented might have a thing or two to say about that

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Jun 2011 20:34

somnath wrote:BR is a comic sideshow, which unfortunately has helped no one barring a bumbling, pathetically clueless UPA II govt...

So all is hunky dory the sky is the limit and paradise awaits us but
for RD.

I remember something: The lady doth protest too much - Shakespeare Hamlet act 3 scene 2.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Jun 2011 20:36

somnath wrote:
RD on the other hand is basically nothing but another political animal in town with high ambitions...As an analogy, Laloo Yadav of 1989 perhaps comes closest, though Laloo had far better understanding of the political variables, and yes, at leasst honesty of purpose - he was ambitious and made no bones about it...Actually, RD is a combination of Laloo and Raj Narain - the ethnic "rustic-ness" and ambition of the former and the brains of the latter!

Somnath, what is your point?
You accuse BR of being with the masses and disturbing government functioning. BR does not seem to have hinted at any political agenda.. And yet you accuse him of being a political animal. The onus is on you to prove your statement. You need to get your thinking in order. Get a coherent thought process going instead of throwing things around to get heard.

somnath wrote: There are far too many doomsayers here talking of civil war, revolution and what not...Wake up! India is changing rapidly, and mostly for the better...Including in the domain of politics, where engagemetn is deepending and widening...Its visible everywhere - election turnouts, pro-incumbency, even in the stories of the likes of Arvind Kejriwal...Its an aspirational India, looking for everything today, and that includes better governance...And increasingly, getting it through the most powerful tool available - electoral votes...BR is a comic sideshow, which unfortunately has helped no one barring a bumbling, pathetically clueless UPA II govt...

Clearly the turnout BR has is proof that thousands do not agree with your rosy picture.

the most powerful tool available - electoral votes.[/b

]
WAITAMINUTE!!! What was the Jan Lokpal bill once again? Dang! I wonder why the Lokpal bill wants the PM in purview

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 08 Jun 2011 20:37

SomnathJi,

Got caught up, but your example of Lallo as a son of soil is fine, but nobody, not even BJP govt that was not his ally, used police action against him and his supporters. Like I said, you need to hang your head in shame, as I do. MMS and INC have no b@lls to take on India's real enemkies, but unleashes brutality against son of the soil like BR to squash his movement.

Nesoj,

Indeed, BR had to do that to escape the clucthces of the fascism MMS unleashed oin him, even as he (MMS) wants to meet more than half way with his terrorist maulanas to the west.