Indian Military Aviation

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2011 02:39

Pilatus PC-7 Mk-II may be IAF's choice for $1bn trainer aircraft deal

Too late to crib, but a cool billion for a similar plane within ....................

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 15 Jun 2011 03:00

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Gurneesh wrote:So, weight might be the main reason that F125IN has an advantage.
Try not to forget the sizing issues as well. I might be mistaken here, but a cursory glance (read: wiki) suggests that the F-125 has a 910 mm Fan diameter whereas the other two RR engines are around the 570 mm diameter (811 is at 564mm). Length scales appropriately. Is Honeywell proposing a major redesign of the Jaguar aft structures? Or am I misreading the numbers here?

P.S.: That higher fan diameter is where the higher T/W rating is coming from, it seems. But internal spacing might not allow this to happen readily, hence requiring some re-work. Also am not sure about the airflow situations (read: intake adjustments) for the 125N. Is that also on the cards from Honeywell?

Regards

-Vivek

Not sure how different the F-125IN is different from F-125 in dimensions. In 2009, Honeywell had demonstrated the F-125IN's drop-fit of the F-125IN into an existing Jaguar.

Not sure if you have seen this, but some PR effort from Honeywell: http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/demos.php

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 15 Jun 2011 03:07

Summary of claims:
a) Drop-fit of F-125IN into the IAF jaguar
b) Improved Engine Maintenance Systems
c) Greater thrust in the range of ~20%-40%
d) Reduction in weight of the Jaguar after engine replacement by ~200kg
e) Combine (c) and (d) can increase payload of the Jaguar by 2000 kg [not sure if the airframe is capable of handling such potential payload increase]
f) Claimed increase of 36% in range.

If the above claims are reflective of improvements (even if not to the magnitude claimed), the increased thrust and reduced weight would certainly make the Jaguar a far more agile platform for strike missions.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Jun 2011 03:09

HAL is sitting on $4billion cash reserves but it didn't have guts or forsight to develop a basic trainer on its own without IAF sanctions and GoI funding. Honeywell went ahead and created a complete solution for IAF Jaguar engine deal, several years before IAF even started looking for a new engine. What a bunch of morons we have at HAL/MoD/IAF......

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2011 03:31

Morons? Posted in frustration I am sure.

Low risk and let-others-take-the-risk - pass-the-file-around mentality rules.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 15 Jun 2011 04:00

Katare wrote:HAL is sitting on $4billion cash reserves but it didn't have guts or forsight to develop a basic trainer on its own without IAF sanctions and GoI funding. Honeywell went ahead and created a complete solution for IAF Jaguar engine deal, several years before IAF even started looking for a new engine. What a bunch of morons we have at HAL/MoD/IAF......

Even if HAL wishes to put sufficient money onto R&D they will not be allowed to do so by GOI.. i'm sure babus in MOD will block such proposals with reason that there is NAL, ADE etc for R&D. Also IIRC the financial powers of HAL's BOD is limited.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2011 04:27

The quasi gov HAL is well known for its screw driver capabilities. Now, why beat the hell outta those guys, when you know where well about that? Besides, we could actually develop a better setup with private ownership, and gov regulated shops where pay packet is just about right to retain the best talents.

Unless, people change the ways, gov will not.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 Jun 2011 04:31

How independent is HAL in the first place, to initiate projects without explicit forces backing/requirements? If they cannot initiate projects or are shot down by the forces when they show a product, will they not be castigated for having spent money on useless projects?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 05:32

Katare wrote:HAL is sitting on $4billion cash reserves but it didn't have guts or forsight to develop a basic trainer on its own without IAF sanctions and GoI funding. Honeywell went ahead and created a complete solution for IAF Jaguar engine deal, several years before IAF even started looking for a new engine. What a bunch of morons we have at HAL/MoD/IAF......

-2 for that comment

This is a typical Indian comment (I can pick up examples time and time again in the media and this forum) which berates HAL for not spending money on a trainer based on a strawman set up for the purpose - i.e Honeywell developed an engine. On the surface the statement seems to criticise the way Indians do things but it is just as much an illustration of contempt that Indians have of others without even a cursory attempt at saying how the analogy is comparable leave alone a pretence of analysis.

The usual response to this would be "Oh you are an apologist for PSUs" thereby diverting the subject from the fact that Indians basically believe that their personal views and capabilities give them the right to call entire organizations by the term "morons" based on a questionably relevant comparison and a set of straw men.

I will bring up this subject in another thread at another time - because it is a usefully illustrative comment about how Indians are scathing about other Indians in general. Why complain when others ROTFL about Indians. We agree with them. It is only our fraudulent Indic pride that makes us get worked up when other criticise us because we consider it well within our rights to say "He's my son so I am allowed to beat him"

It is exactly the same attitude that makes Air Force call LCA "Khadi gramodyog" and BSF to be scathing about Dhruv as "totally useless" or rmy to get Israelis to assess Arjun. Indians always imaging that firangis are good but we have special inside knowledge about cheating Indians which allow us to catch them out.

I personally think it is ridiculous and strongly object to this sort of attitude. But it is a part of the way my own people seem to relate to each. With contempt rather that respect, understanding or analysis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 05:49

Here is some more information on moronic HAL not being able to create a trainer while sitting on American Money (4 billion dollars) as Honeywell goes ahead and creates an entire engine. Of course Honeywell would not have come under criticism from Indian patriots if it had lost the competition so no anal-ysis is needed as to how or why they did it. We only know about fellow Indians who are lazy cheats.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 5.jpg.html

The turboprop powered HTT-34 which was developed as a private venture by HAL. The 313kW (420shp) Allison 250-B17D powered HTT-34 flew for the first time, in a converted HTP-32 prototype form, on 17 June 1984. The new engine significantly boasted performance on the the basic aircraft, but was cancelled as official interest was not forthcoming.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 05:55

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell/ITEC_F124

The Honeywell/ITEC F124 is a low-bypass turbofan engine derived from the civilian Honeywell TFE731. The F125 is an afterburning version of the engine. The engine began development in the late 1970s for the Republic of China (Taiwan) Air Force AIDC F-CK Indigenous Defence Fighter (IDF), and it first ran in 1979. The F124/F125 engine has since been proposed for use on other aircraft, such as the T-45 Goshawk and the SEPECAT Jaguar, and currently powers the Aero L-159 Alca and the Alenia Aermacchi M-346.

Clearly Honeywell spent their own money and just went ahead and developed, in the 1970s, an engine that they somehow knew would be right for the Indian Jaguar 30+ years later. Therefore HAL are morons. Let us now criticize the idiotic Kaveri without pausing to think how one 40 year old engine design can come in handy for decades and make clever Indians think that the design was specially conjured up in a flash.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 15 Jun 2011 06:12

Originally the Jaguar was designed as a trainer therefore afterburning features were not contemplated into the design. Now we are thinking of purchasing afterburning enginers, do you think that the Jaguar airframe can handle the stress of afterburning engines?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 15 Jun 2011 06:27

current Jag engines are afterburning..

saps · Post by **saps** » 15 Jun 2011 06:30

Even though i hope that we have the talent and the wherewithal to try and do what others seem to be achieving with smooth efficiency, somehow it doesnt seem to work as well.
Take the case of "Sitara" which is likely to replace kiran HJT 16. Its been on the drawing board in true sense...even though the first few came out real fast and quite amaze with the similarity with lots of other AJT which india had assessed for procurement. However, with the recent failure of spin trials the entire thing has disappeared behind a thick cloud.
With no news about the resurrection of the trials; the IOC which was reported sometime in Jul 11 this year is a long shot. Is there someone arm twisting the HAL now to not go full steam or its just the fastest we can go. If at all there was a better scenario to develop / co design it is now as "Money is no problem" and you can pull almost anyone for design / consultation.
So, my take on "Morons" well may be not yet but we could still prove ourselves to be if we dont pull up our socks...my two pence.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 07:01

saps wrote:Even though i hope that we have the talent and the wherewithal to try and do what others seem to be achieving with smooth efficiency, somehow it doesnt seem to work as well.
Take the case of "Sitara" which is likely to replace kiran HJT 16. Its been on the drawing board in true sense...even though the first few came out real fast and quite amaze with the similarity with lots of other AJT which india had assessed for procurement.

IJT is going on fine. It is ignorance among Indians about aircraft development that makes people think that accidents do not occur or will not occur. India is a country that has a fairly short history of engineering talent and industrial development. India technological innovation is nearly non existent for that reason. Most countries in the west have been there done that decades, if not centuries ago. So even among the educated in India we have a very low level of awareness of engineering challenges an very low tolerance for failures when we compare them to the "successes" we see in developed nations. Indians seem to suffer from a sense of inferiority and uselessness that make us give up easily or alternatively we are critical of those who do not give up easily by saying "They are too slow" "Pull up socks" etc These are national characteristics - not just BRF. The IAF officer, the techie, the nerd, the student, the IIT topper and the petty businessman - all have the same attitudes about India and Indians.

Either we are not good enough or we will get there eventually. But we are constantly saying that Indians are not good enough en route to "getting there". That actually hampers and slows down development because it cuts funding, eccourages dissatisfaction and frustration and quashes innovation. We are slow because we think we should be better and are often needlessly harsh on those whom we think are not good enough. That leads to plodding and "playing it safe". If people are careful they are "too slow and need to pull up socks". If an accident occurs they are not good enough. What choice do Indians give other Indians? In fact it stems from our schooling system where children are berated for not being good enough when nothing is done to find out what they are good at and help them with stuff they are less adept to doing. The same rigid and bliinkered attitudes of "You stupids - you need to do better" is carried on into Indian industry. In India children are praised for learning by rote to get marks to enter engineering college, but teaching in college is hopeless and we produce 300,000 unemployable engineers a year and then curse and say "Other Indians are useless". As an Indian I can say all this - but if one firangi says this in an article we Indians will get all worked up and angry and say it is a conspiracy to keep India down.

The LCA program would have been quashed if it had one crash. Has anyone checked how many crashes the MiG 21 had under development in Russia. How many did the Harrier have? How many did the HJT 16 Kiran have. Any guesses on which plane in the iAF inventory (past or present) has the worst ever safety record?

We don't progress because we only think other Indians are useless without an iota of understanding of how we help to slow down our own system by the way we think and react. That is the national problem. Not LCA, Arjun or IJT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 07:37

India is not a very technologically advanced country - no matter which way you cut it. We are medium tech. Not high tech. We may be high in some areas. We are decidedly medium in most places. There is no alternative to time and effort in the development of tech - but most educated Indians do not understand enough about technology to realise that. That is itself an indicator of a degree of backwardness of Indian thought over and above technological backwardness.

So for India it is a matter of pride when Indian engineers develop a gearbox (such as the LCA gearbox). It is an equal matter of pride (for some) when Indian engineers integrate materials with engine and gearbox to make a "Huffy" or a "Tuffy". An Indian Huffy may not compare with a Hummer, just like the Nano does not even compare with a new-build VW Beetle. The LCA gearbox may not hold a candle to the gearbox for the Vertical Take-off F-35, but it is a matter of some pride in India.

That pride - of people who have put in some work and done something within material, engineering and technical constraints can be handled in two different ways. One way is to compliment them and to ask them to keep working. The other way is to tell them "You are morons. Look at what has been done in other countries. You are too slow. Your stuff is prone to failure. You need to pull up your socks" As a nation the media, the English speaking elite of India and the community of educated people in India tend to take the latter scathing route rather than the former encouraging route. I see it time and time and time again in the media, in comments that people make and even on BRF.

Sorry its OT - but I have said similar stuf so often in the past I may just put it in the FAQ thread.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 15 Jun 2011 07:38

Brilliant analysis, Shiv.

On the average we have tended to be very defensive in nature and suffer from inferiority. Interestingly our own sense of self worth in our civilisation also tends to bring out the worst in us - after all we and the Chinese (they were slightly ahead then) were still the foremost economic powers till 1820s - we together represented around 50% of the economy when the industrial age had not swept us apart completely. We see where we are now (or were in the last 50 years) and we get angry.

So whenever we have come up against the West, in general, some of us, with a very weak inner pillar, genuflect and think that West is the best thing that has happened to the world. The world being what it is and with travel happening all over the place and then with the internet coming in, we have been able to see what the world has to offer.

Thereafter, we have decided that if we cant achieve, in a few years, if not a few decades, what the average western society (say UK, US, Canada, Germany, France, etc.) has achieved in terms of technology, infrastructure, quality of life etc., due to sustained economic growth in last 150 odd years, we must be worthless! And once this decision is made, it is easy to start thinking that every failure (which actually is a part of life) must be because we or actually "They" who are working on the technology, must be idiots and worthless.

So on one hand, our intelligence and a feeling of worth about our civilisation, leads us to think we need to be among the best - which is a wonderful thing. On the other hand, we are not willing to pay the price of development in terms of the time it takes.

There is, I think, another strand as well - those of us who have managed to keep our sense of self-worth irrespective of our actual development level as a society, get angry with the power that the West has been able to bring about due to it being ahead of us in last 150/ 200 years in particular. Maybe we need get some equanimity in place and believe that we will get back and who them their place.

I think things will change, gradually. Our next generation and the one that was born in the last 15 years or so will have seen some of the sense of worth turning into a reality or already turned into reality, in terms of all round development happening and we starting to count among the key nations of the world.

Earlier, when there was nothing to back it up in terms of economic and military position, we could just use rhetoric as our device. Now we will have the means to change that. Some of us will still not change but then they do not matter.

Best regards.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 07:43

Even at the risk of being told that we are slapping each other on the back in mutual admiration I will say that was a beautifully expressed post Ashutosh Malik.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Jun 2011 08:10

Also It is a declared policy of western nations to support their Military-Industrial complex by awarding them contracts regularly and making sure that they dont go bankrupt. Think of it as though they are PSUs but with a veneer of being "private". They have immense political patronage, support, and money!!

Consider two cases in point: Ombaba writes letters to MMS supporting F18 for MMRCA (which ultimately benefits Boeing), one of the most important reasons why JSF was awarded to LM was because LM would become bankrupt without further contracts and US wanted atleast 2 fighter manufacturers.

Contrast that with Indian political support for our desi products. Take a look at the Arjun Saga! It is a miracle that Akash has been inducted in numbers. Nag is still on the doldrums.

If any company is assured of continued political patronage and money, they will go on a limb and develop products. They will be unafraid of criticism and unafraid that they will go bankrupt (or inquiries by CAG along the lines of "In spite of being a PSU, why did you invest Rs 1000 in developing this product when the sanction was not signed in triplicate by the defense minister, countersigned by defense secretary, tabled in cabinet committee on security and presented it to the parliament for approval?").

As a case in point, think of TankEX and Bhim. The product was ignored and more importantly, DRDO was criticized for developing a "laughable product". Now do you think that they would go on a limb and develop say a Shilka on Arjun Chassis? No wonder our labs dont take any risk and proactively develop products!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jun 2011 08:16

That is the national problem. Not LCA, Arjun or IJT.

we can run a billion line long thread for this topic., the relevance would be 100% in all threads.

from put my food on the plate and wash it for me at home to how we think about national programs of importance has the same underlying defect - in the maturity model.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 08:38

Avid wrote:Not sure how different the F-125IN is different from F-125 in dimensions. In 2009, Honeywell had demonstrated the F-125IN's drop-fit of the F-125IN into an existing Jaguar.

Not sure if you have seen this, but some PR effort from Honeywell: http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/demos.php

That was my mistake. I was thinking of the F-124-GA-100 there. F-125IN is indeed roughly the same diameter.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 08:44

Katare,

Here is an analysis for the F-125IN for IAF Jaguars as requested...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... 3&hl=en_US

http://mach-five.blogspot.com/2011/06/h ... k-811.html

Regards

-Vivek

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 08:50

ever thought of joining the journalism line ?

you would run most of them out of town!

so the mystery continues....if there is no significant benefit at tibet alt in range or payload (other than STO performance)...why is the IAF pushing for it? surely via the makers and HAL testing they would have very detailed info on the above lines already.

or maybe the Adour performance offered by RR falls short of the brochure claims such that gap is wider ?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 08:57

Singha wrote:ever thought of joining the journalism line ? you would run most of them out of town!

Ahh, I wish there was time for more of this in my life. Sadly, between my health issues and work, I rarely find time to be as involved as I would like...

so the mystery continues....if there is no significant benefit at tibet alt in range or payload (other than STO performance)...why is the IAF pushing for it? surely via the makers and HAL testing they would have very detailed info on the above lines already.

IMVHO, pilot workload is significantly reduced if the upgrade option is exercised. Improved performance exists not merely from engines, but also from reduced pilot fiddling on throttle settings. Among other things. Besides, engine relight improvement and the Sea Level performance improvements are pretty good. Maybe the IAF is not looking east as it is to the west?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 15 Jun 2011 08:57

So whenever we have come up against the West, in general, some of us, with a very weak inner pillar, genuflect and think that West is the best thing that has happened to the world. The world being what it is and with travel happening all over the place and then with the internet coming in, we have been able to see what the world has to offer.

Perhaps that is why, as a counter-reaction Indian politicos and junta have had these idiosyncratic policies-no profiteering, no alcohol, no capitalism, no capital, no business, no private airlines, no private car makers, no industrialisation, no education for the masses, no trade, no transparency, no travel abroad, no western clothes, no dating, no nuclear weapons.....

All in search of some mythical pre-goron utopia where dharma is safe from adharma.

So after sixty years of living in righteous self-deception, they grudgingly admit that the world is not only not going away-that it is opening the technological and social distance with India.

Something that China accepted when Deng said it's is no use believing one's self handsome when the face is homely.

I agree that there is a deep seated inadequacy within all Asian societies. What is most telling is that second generation Indians in the West display a greater confidence, optimism and less timorousness than the most privileged desi. An Indian in India will never approach this confidence, because for him the goron is a legendary beast of extraordinary qualities whereas the expatriate is bold as he has seen the legend for the myth.

Perhaps the time will come when India, as Taiwan before, will allow expatriates to reinvigorate the homeland.

Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers (or stuck pineapples up any a$$e$).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 09:08

Singha wrote:
so the mystery continues....if there is no significant benefit at tibet alt in range or payload (other than STO performance)...why is the IAF pushing for it? surely via the makers and HAL testing they would have very detailed info on the above lines already.

or maybe the Adour performance offered by RR falls short of the brochure claims such that gap is wider ?

Taking off with full payload with ease at high ambient temperatures may be the only thing required. Once it has climbed to 25000 feet it would have burned off some fuel and will be lighter anyway.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 09:13

Leh does get to 33C in summer per wiki.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 15 Jun 2011 09:21

Wondering what they will do with the old engines. Is it possible to built a limited series (possibly 200-250) of large LACM with 2-3 ton payload at 0.6-0.9 mach with a range of 1000 km. And one more question, what are the possible 30% offsets we will get with Honeywell engine.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 09:22

Singha wrote:Leh does get to 33C in summer per wiki.

Which puts the effective density-altitude much higher than Leh airbase. Point is, I am not even sure launching Jags from Leh is a good idea unless you want to deliver some DPSA whoop-ass on the Chinese, old fashioned style. For most other applications, launch from sea-level is good enough for the IAF.

By the by, if the Jag goes 1,000 Km on a certain mission in Tibet with external fuel, 18% higher range at 20,000 feet can make quite a difference, doesn't it?

-Vivek

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 15 Jun 2011 09:22

Deleted - Sorry, double post.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 09:29

Singha wrote:Leh does get to 33C in summer per wiki.

You hear of An-32, Il 76, Su-30, MiG 29 and LCA take off from Leh. Not Jag.
Jag was Pakistan specific DPSA. Now we are looking east.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Jun 2011 09:31

Mr Ahuja,

Got a few more articles will send em through over the next coupla days check main then.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 09:46

andy B wrote:Mr Ahuja,

Got a few more articles will send em through over the next coupla days check main then.

Thanks Andy. Look forward to receiving them.

-Vivek

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jun 2011 10:06

Found an old story from 2001
http://www.ladakhstudies.org/resources/ ... s/LS16.pdf

WORLD'S HIGHEST AIRFIELD AT LEH BECOMES OPERATIONAL
LEH, Nov 19: The world's highest airfield here has become operational for the Indian Air Forces
frontline fighters MiG-29's with the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Air Command Air
Marshal Vinod Bhatia declaring it would give New Delhi a "far greater reach towards Central
Asia". Bhatia, speaking to a visiting group of newsmen in the backdrop of four MiG-29's codenamed
fulcrum by NATO, performing live battle manoeuvres said the air forces most lethal air superiority
fighters becoming operational at Leh would mean,"we are closer to threats to the security of the
country".

For the first time, the AOC-in-C of Western Air Command said the IAF had been successful in
making fighters operational from Leh, having failed earlier with fighters like MiG-21 and Jaguar
deep penetrations strike aircraft. Air force experts said making fighters that too frontline warplanes
like MiG-29 operational from Leh was significant as the airbase flying distance wise was just 660
kms embattled Afghan capital of Kabul, 1080 kms from Kirghistan capital of Alamaty, 445 km from
Pakistani capital Islamabad and also near to Chinese mainland towns including capital Beijing.Labelling as "significant", Leh airfield becoming operational to the MiG-29s, Bhatia said it was
important because of the "proximity of the base to threats facing the country." He said though IAF
had stationed MiG-29S at Leh since 1998, it was only now that they had become operational from
the base. Bhatia said though other fighter aircraft like MiG-21 and Jaguars were using the Leh
airbase it had been difficult to operationalise these fighter aircraft from the area, "MiG-21 and
Jaguars would also continue to operate in spells from the base", he added.

Air Force officials cited the downslide in the runway and its short take-off and landing, as
factors which had hampered the airbase becoming operational for MiG-21 and Jaguars. "The short
take off and landing of the MiG-29 fighters is ideally suited for operation from Leh", they said. Four
MiG-29s put up a breath-taking live battle manoeuvres for a distinguished audience which included
Defence Minister George Fernandes and senior Army and Air Force officers. (PTI)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 10:35

I believe thoise afb also operates only Mig29 at present - their relatively light load of 4 AAM and option of 1 drop tank under fuselage gives them a good T:W vs the rest one would think.

jaguar will never be a rafale but if they can operate from Leh and future hi-alt bases gives us a better reach into the beehive.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Jun 2011 11:19

Singha wrote:so the mystery continues....if there is no significant benefit at tibet alt in range or payload (other than STO performance)...why is the IAF pushing for it?

Did I mention "damage control" before? IMVVHO, this $ 2 billion deal is a sort of SOP thrown in to placate the much disappointed GOTUS. The loss of the MRCA hurt - rightly or wrongly - the US believed the cat was in the bag - imagine the rude shock received. It is not v. surprising that soon after the MRCA reduction decision came, it was followed by the scrapping of the Jag engine upgrade. There was little need for the reengine upg at this late hour imho. Between the Tejas/MRCA, possible Mirage upg, and MiG-29 upg, the Jags getting a little bit of oomph makes negligible difference. They should have been allowed to die their natural death - of excellent service and old age circa 2025. Their value against increasingly modern Chini GBAD is bound to wane rather quickly.

But considering how much shock there was and the awe that GOI holds US, it was only natural that some doublequick placating/massaging of necessary parts was duly arranged. Observe the quick sign off on the C17 deal, nicely timed. And now the Jag reengine deal has been revived from the brink of some MOD labryinth. Single vendor deal? DPP be damned. Coincidence? I think not.

No complaints though, as die hard jingos we'll take any upgrade to IAF capability, afterall, it could make alternate stealthy routes into TSP a possibility - more options for the IAF. I can understand the IAF mentality here - we'll take whatever we can get - no looking gift horses in the mouth, wot? Diwali time, first they get Ecanards, and now even Jag upg. Btw, jingos better not set too much store by the M2k upgrade either - things doth not look too good in that direction if the Rafale be selected. Cheapo upgrade or perhaps even an exchange of airframes might be in the offing.

I will now duck for cover - jingos I realize set not store by the reading of tea leaves and old wives tales.

CM.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 15 Jun 2011 12:08

hope this hasnt been posted before.DDM on full throttle in TOIlet article.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... wani-kumar

PANAJI: Union minister of state for science, technology and earth sciences Ashwani Kumar said a 1,700-seater passenger aircraft will be rolled out in the next seven years.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Jun 2011 12:10

vis a vis Jags - it looks like the DARIN III two seaters are likely to be around for a while - real deep strike with low electronic observability, plus their 'strategic' advantages
i like

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 15 Jun 2011 12:18

CM

i guess MRCA (preferably) Rafale will predominantly take care of the northern front while the upgraded Jags predominantly will take care of the western front. that must be playing on the minds of IAF considering Jags have at least another decade of life and the falling squadron numbers necessitate the use of all available resources. this becomes even more important when one considers Mig 27s have become notoriously unreliable and most of the Mig 21s are about to bid farewell.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 12:39

how many Mig27 we have and how many were upgraded ? will the non upged ones all be retired soon?
the 125 Bisons are expected to be phased out in 2020 I think...they will be used until the last possible moment.