LCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 08:55

It may be after Russia visit, he changed his attitude towards LCA. Good.

I hope there is only one AMCA program.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Jun 2011 11:28

marimuthu wrote:
Singha wrote:Tejas seems to have only 2 wet pylons (inboard wing).
Nope. Other than outboard pylons, all the other five are wet ones.

DRDO Tech focus: Feb 2011 says:

External fuel capacity: 2x 1,200 litre drop tank at inboard,
1x 725 litre drop tank under fuselage

So the number of wet pylons is 3 and 3 should be enough for a single engine plane.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 16 Jun 2011 11:50

indranilroy wrote:So the number of wet pylons is 3 and 3 should be enough for a single engine plane.

LCA has five wet pylons. Inner board cleared for 1200Lt and Mid Board for 800Lt. The Fuselage point was suppose to be 1200Lt. But due to some problems it is now 700Lt only.But at any given time, LCA carries 3 drop tanks max.

darshand · Post by **darshand** » 16 Jun 2011 13:20

Singha wrote:but F-15E style pylons will add teeth to the endurance.

AFAIK that is a ferry configuration - the missiles cannot be launched from those pylons. Let me see if I can dig up a reference for that, might be lying around somewhere on my hdd.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jun 2011 14:20

Regarding Naik's statement

On LCA: Naik said the LCA programme is shaping up well in the run up to the Final Operational Clearance. “We are happy that now we are finally progressing and that there could be light at the end of the tunnel. The LCA will enter into squadron service by the end of the year and then will become operational in a couple of years. Similarly, we will have six or seven operational squadrons of the LCA Mark-II,”

Excellent news and kudos to Abraham Kuruvilla for this scoop!

This means the production intent for the Tejas is now at 120-140 for the MK2 version apart from the 40 aircraft for MK1. The MK1 orders show each squadron is being raised at 20 units. Overall IAF orders will be around 187 planes (including the 7 LSP), which if we add the 40-60 aircraft required by the Navy, come to 227 units, the same as original planes, or even 247.

Also, the Air Chief has clarified his earlier remarks.
http://spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=736

Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik took over as CAS in May 2009, and after having spent a major part of his career tackling challenges facing the IAF, will retire on July 31 this year. During an interaction with Air Marshal (Retd) V.K. Bhatia, Editor, SP’s Aviation, the veteran fighter pilot spoke about various measures undertaken to build the necessary capabilities within the service. Read through the first part of the interview.

SP’s: Could you give the latest update on the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas development/acquisition programme? Does the IAF feel satisfied with the performance of the initial operational clearance (IOC)/ full operational capability (FOC) of Tejas Mk I? What are the shortcomings in operational capabilities that the IAF has had to contend with and how are these proposed to be overcome in the Mk II version?

CAS: As of now, we have seven LCA aircraft and these are being put through their final paces, before induction into the IAF this year. We are expecting two more limited series production aircraft to join the fleet by the third quarter this year. The LCA, in its present form, is a fourth generation aircraft and we are working with HAL to enhance its capabilities. I am hopeful that the aircraft, in its final operational clearance configuration, will be a much more potent platform, to be a ‘fourth generation plus’. We have had certain problems with the thrust-to-weight ratio and have contracted for a higher thrust engine for the LCA Mark II to obviate this problem. Some design improvements have also been planned to address the shortfalls in performance as compared to LCA Mark I aircraft.

Basically, more weight reduction (design improvement via more composites, fuselage plug to reduce drag, more fuel, even as more kit gets added, and higher thrust engine).

Also, one IAF officer in a recent interaction observed that the LCA MK-2 would be very similar (in terms of capabilities offered) to the Gripen NG and would be useful to the IAF. There is a possibility as well, that if the Govt clears the squadron cap limit for a raise, more squadrons of the LCA and MMRCA will be ordered as well, (around 2-3 each) and the MCA will also get a fillip - to replace the older Jags, Mirage, MiG-29s as they retire

The LCA has been one of three projects that are India's hardest technological endeavours, and arguably, the one with the most indigenous content. It is heartening to see the progress which is a testimony to persistence.

saje · Post by **saje** » 17 Jun 2011 15:27

Today at around 11.a.m. as I was heading towards Sarjapur Road for an appointment I heard the sound of a jet overhead. It was cloudy so I could'nt see which one it was. Slowly a drizzle started, and navigating through the thick traffic I reached the Agara Flyover. Once on the flyover, you can see far into the distance over all the nearby flats. And there far away, I saw the sight which gave me goose bumps... it was the LCA... doing what looked like low-level aerobatics over the HAL airport. Such was the situation -- the cloudy weather, the drizzle, and this aircraft in the air doing some really graceful moves that it actually looked like the LCA was enjoying the rain... dancing in it!

Just yesterday, I'd bought a new NOKIA C6 with 8mp HD video recording and sure I could've got the sight on camera. But this is not something which can be enjoyed on You Tube... this is something you enjoy by standing there in the rain and taking it in as it plays out. Yet I'm hoping against hope that someone else like me was out there, taking a picture or a video or whatever. Such is human greed.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 19 Jun 2011 19:45

HAL is setting up four new manufacturing plants for MTA, FGFA, MMRCA and LUH. But What about Tejas? Doesn't it need one or are they planning to build it like prototypes one plane at a time in a prototype workshop?

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2011 20:11

good question, it need not be HAL though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2011 20:15

neerajb wrote:HAL is setting up four new manufacturing plants for MTA, FGFA, MMRCA and LUH. But What about Tejas? Doesn't it need one or are they planning to build it like prototypes one plane at a time in a prototype workshop?

Cheers....

All those new plants are needed because HAL Bangalore will do LCA, ALH, LCH , Hawk and IJT

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jun 2011 20:31

From my limited understanding, the Jaguar "factory" was reused - to the extent possible - for Hawk - and this would be reused for Tejas. The Kiran "factory" would be reused for AJT.

The HAL Barrackpore has an overhaul shop and the Chetak/Cheetah line moved there from Bangalore in 2004, and that "could" be used for LUH, unless HAL plans to keep the Cheetah line open or Mamta plans to return the land to the farmers.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Jun 2011 20:57

I believe Tejas has got a new line set up at the HAL Campus in Bangalore.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jun 2011 21:45

tsarkar wrote:From my limited understanding, the Jaguar "factory" was reused - to the extent possible - for Hawk - and this would be reused for Tejas. The Kiran "factory" would be reused for AJT...

Jaguar line would have been used for Hawk but we stillare doing a lot of Jaguar work and we are also going to Rampup Hawk production with the supplementary order by AF and new order from Navy. Forces like Hawk and they would continue to order more (like all videshi maal)... We should use this opportunity to setup facilities in collaboration with the private sector.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jun 2011 21:49

Deleted...

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jun 2011 22:40

Dear Bala and Cheenum,

Could you kindly delete your reference to which wall and which fence our friendly neighbourhood mujahids need to climb to meet their 72s? That little bit information was unnecessary & we all would rather hope they meet their 72 other means.

Thanks in Advance,

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jun 2011 23:12

I dont know Bangalore topography, but I understand you. The Jewish center at Mumbai that was attacked was less than 100 ft from INS Shikra gate. Land sales based funding is more important to our politicians than national security.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Jun 2011 08:38

tsarkarji,
Maafi but there is no confidential info in my post.. any muj who has walked along the eastern end of airport would immediately realize this.. the building is spanking new and is quite large to be considered an office space of any sort..

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jun 2011 09:28

Bala Vignesh wrote:tsarkarji,
Maafi but there is no confidential info in my post.. any muj who has walked along the eastern end of airport would immediately realize this.. the building is spanking new and is quite large to be considered an office space of any sort..

Bala, let us not have any issue on this.. just delete the details...

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 20 Jun 2011 12:21

NP-1 to fly in september. major challenges overcome. NP-1 engine run next. SBTF running ahead of schedule.

Tarmak update -

Tech integration challenges hit LCA Navy; NP-1 set for engine ground run

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2011 14:48

HAL simply has to install some golf course style poles and nets in that area. just passed by it today. a guy standing on back of a lorry would have a birds eye view of the whole facility and a perch to throw anything in. the biggest shed was open at both ends, presumbably the lorry and bus drivers could even see inside.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2011 18:09

6pm today CABS hack a/c took off, and cleared blr headed due south-east @ 300ft.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jun 2011 18:14

the AFM article on tejas posted by andy, in pdf format.
http://ifile.it/fq1cjm0/LCA%20article%20AFM%20mag.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jun 2011 18:22

Singha wrote:6pm today CABS hack a/c took off, and cleared blr headed due south-east @ 300ft.

Which hack? The pointy nose?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2011 18:24

yes Shiv - pointed nose and indian flag stripes at base of nose. kind of like Tejas nose grafted on a cow.

so it seems apparent the 125 bisons will retired in batches between 2015-2020, perhaps in lots of 25 airframes every year , with all planes cannibalized for good parts and rest scrapped.

thats a huge number to be going offline - 1.x squadrons per annum for 6 years.

MRCA and Tejas mk1 & mk2 need to have full production pipelines definitely by that time to make up the retirals....I think at best we can hope around 10-15 MRCA and 10-15 Tejas per year from HAL.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jun 2011 18:37

cool.. desi aesa is getting ready.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2011 18:39

it could be anything, maybe even systems related to the EMB AEW inside the cabin - the nose could be just ballast or the old abandoned MMR set.

lets not get into chinese fanboy mode ....

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Jun 2011 18:50

Singha wrote:
so it seems apparent the 125 bisons will retired in batches between 2015-2020, perhaps in lots of 25 airframes every year , with all planes cannibalized for good parts and rest scrapped.

GD, before the IAF can even think of scrapping the Bisons, they have to scrap the sizeable number of M/MF and Bis versions still in service. The only thing these are good for in case of an actual war is limited CAS and maybe tangling with paki F-7s.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jun 2011 23:16

Singha wrote:6pm today CABS hack a/c took off, and cleared blr headed due south-east @ 300ft.

any chance of pictures? was it on a Dornier or a HS-748 platform?... when is the Embraer AEWCS expected to come home to mama?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jun 2011 23:19

Singha wrote:it could be anything, maybe even systems related to the EMB AEW inside the cabin - the nose could be just ballast or the old abandoned MMR set.

My money is also on AEW, think about it, there are plenty of STUFF inside the body of the aircraft which needs to be tested... better do this all before the AEWCS comes home so that we can start integration tests....

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jun 2011 23:20

nachiket wrote:GD, before the IAF can even think of scrapping the Bisons, they have to scrap the sizeable number of M/MF and Bis versions still in service. The only thing these are good for in case of an actual war is limited CAS and maybe tangling with paki F-7s.

1000+ Agree, Bisons might last longer and be effective, we need to retire those older airframes which can/have not been upgraded. Maybe convert them as UCAVs

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jun 2011 23:24

or unmanned decoys for SEAD/DEAD roles.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 00:09

@mach 2, it can definitely dodge against WVR missile on a UCAV mode. But, the integration of many weapons to this platform would be required for UCAV. Now for S/dEAD decoy roles, wouldn't missiles launched from an UCAV platform more effective? We have to take them out at first strike, and have our UCAVs designed for stealth, and having a LPI radar as well., which the 21s would become very expensive to maintain/convert.

?

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 21 Jun 2011 00:26

Decoy or target drone is the best use for those old airframes. Soviets converted there retired Mig-21s to M-21 which was a target drone. HAL can do this simple/cheap conversion at home. High time we provide our pilots with some real shooting experience.

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 00:48

We do have trailing target on lakshya for missile tests. why waste (sdre thoughts) an a/c rather use it for some electricity generation with its engine?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 Jun 2011 04:47

Cross - Post

MRCA Tender : US Firm Raytheon Locks onto India
Daily News & Analysis

MRCA Tender : US Firm Raytheon Locks onto India
Published : Monday, June 20, 2011
Place : LE BOURGET, France | Agency : PTI

Vying for a Pie in India's Planned Procurement of 126 MMRCA Fighters, US Defence Major Raytheon today said it was Eager to Supply Weapons Systems for being Integrated onto the Jets to be Selected from among Two shortlisted European companies.

Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems said the Company has a Suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons systems that could be integrated on Rafale or Eurofighter, the two shortlisted plane makers by India, subject to US government approval.

"Raytheon is Prepared to Meet India's National Security needs and Support the Protection of India's Sovereign Interests with our Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface weapons," he said at the Paris Air Show here.

India has shortlisted two European contenders, French Dassault Rafale and European Eurofighter for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in April.

He said Raytheon's Paveway Systems with Proven Track Record could be Integrated into the 126 MMRCA. Raytheon's Paveway is a Kit that Transforms "Dumb" Bombs into Precision-Guided Munitions; Paveway is currently in the Inventory of the Indian Air Force and 41 other countries.

The Paveway Family of Weapons are Platform Independent and Integrated on More than 27 Aircraft.

Noting that India was a Priority Country for Raytheon,
He also announced the Firm's Desire to Integrate the Combat-Proven Paveway Systems on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"Raytheon has been a Trusted Partner to India for more than Three Decades, and We Hope to Deepen this Relationship by providing the Indian Air Force the Tools it Needs to Defend India's Sovereign Interests," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems.

"India's Air Warriors Deserve the World's most Accurate Direct-Attack Precision Guided Munition, which is why Raytheon's Paveway is a Perfect Fit for the LCA".

Integrated on the Rafale and Eurofighter, Paveway has been extensively used in several ongoing contingency operations. Raytheon's battle-tested Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AIM-120 AMRAAM) is integrated on the Eurofighter.

Raytheon officials also indicated that subject to the approval of the US and Indian governments, Raytheon is Looking for Partnership Opportunities to Produce Critical Components of Paveway with Indian Industry.

"Raytheon has the Utmost Respect for the Capabilities of India's Defense Industry," said Peter Wray, Vice President of Business Development for Raytheon Missile Systems in India.

"If Raytheon were to Receive the Proper Authorisations and Find the Right Partner, We'd be Eager to Pursue Co-Production Opportunities".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 06:44

I think we would welcome this.++

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2011 06:54

So its Sudarshan down the tubes?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Jun 2011 07:04

We do have capability in this area. The need to build an indigenous system was felt after the Kargil war.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr ... -kits.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/ex ... it-on.html
Another video of the use of LGB for the first time by India during the Kargil war.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Jun 2011 07:10

ramana wrote:So its Sudarshan down the tubes?

It seems just an offer. They are offering stuff, not that we are purchasing it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jun 2011 07:16

No mention of the APG for the LCA?

Matlab ki chiz. No baath?

Yar, Dil thod diya.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jun 2011 08:19

SaiK wrote:I think we would welcome this.++

Technology is offered the minute they feel we are developing it on our own. That is the surest way of killing local development.