The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Arjun]

BR's efforts were no different from a typical politician low on depth and high on rhetoric, with a measure of public support

You are bang-on, Somnath.

But the more relevant point is that Sonia Gandhi is lower on depth, higher on rhetoric than BR. And she still has a measure of public support. Which is the only reason guys like me support BR - to fight fire with fire.

[nataraja]

So, if you have not yet reached your threshhold of pain tolerance, enough to revolt, can you list what factors have to be present for you to cross that threshhold ? What conditions have to exist for you personally to cross that rubicon.

It is a tautology (to borrow a favorite phrase from another forum-er) that given extreme circumstances - everybody has a threshold beyond which a revolution is justified.

However - First point to remember is that authoritarian and despotic systems of governance are absolutely not the solution..and bringing in comparison to Paki / Chinese forms of government is the easiest way to kill any hope of support you will get not only on this forum but anywhere in India.

Second point is that any system needs to be pro-growth and allow for flowering of India's natural entrepreneurship talent.

What can be cause for revolution is continued subversion of true liberal governance in India. And the aim of any such revolution would be to eliminate the corruption that goes against the spirit of liberalism in Indian democracy (such as continued dynasticism, money-power in elections, growth of exclusivist ideologies), and bring back true liberal governance.

The specific criteria can differ. For me and for most globalized Indians who have an interest in India holding its own in the field of democracy - a 5th member of the Royal Clan getting formalized is a fundamental subversion of Indian democracy. For the more backward, feudalistic elements - the tubelights turn on only after several more generations. For all such people - it is up to you to ensure that the butts are kicked in appropriate Indian democratic fashion - until they see sense.

No revolution, with the exception of Bolshevik style marxism ideology inspired revolutions, start off with the revolutionary claiming anything but establishment of a "more liberal, more democratic, more people oriented" system as its goal. Even a lot of the Marxism inspired revolutions claimed those. But in actuality, almost all of them result in, at least initially, an authoritarian system. Why ? Because for the most part, either the leaders of the revolution had no intention to establish a liberal democracy to begin with or once they got into power, they were morally bankrupt individuals who could not bring themselves to relinquish power.

Knowing all this, I think if we were to have a revolution, we may have a prayer, but practically no hope that in the forseeable future after the revolution, the leaders will establish a liberal democracy. As much as I wish it to be so, I for one have no hope of that.

Therefore, at the expense of weakening my own case for a revolution, I will not mislead anyone. I will always speak the truth as I see it, even if it comes in the way of what I want. Because, in any case, all these issues, and revolution in particular is a very serious thing and I wouldnt want anyone to venture into it without contemplation and deep thought and certainly not on false pretext. I am not a demogogue who would lie to further my goals.

It is precisely because I have studied revolutions and their history and how most of them turned out to be, that I then have more modest goals out of a revolution to begin with. It is not that I dont prefer a liberal democracy, who wouldnt, but because I know with certainty that a liberal democracy will probably not be a short term or even a medium term outcome of any revolution. But following the current path in my view, is even less likely to lead us to a liberal democracy, even in the long run. In fact, the current path will lead us to destruction in pretty short order.

So, given my thinking, what are my options ? I can wait for an act of God to create an ideal liberal democracy or I can go for the better of two bad choices I have. I think the better of two bad choices is a revolution, even if it leads to an authoritarian system in the medium term. The reason I keep mentioning Chinese and Singapore systems is because if we are to have an authoritarian system, Chinese and Singapore are better than any other authoritarian model. So, it is not that I am an enthusiastic supporter of the Chinese model, but compared to all alternatives, and having low expectations out of a revolution, I would at least expect a Chinese type outcome.

[arnab]

From my reading of the posts, some folks seem to be making the following points - India has a huge corruption problem in all spheres of life – police, judiciary,3G, 4G et al.

The root cause of all this is the current political dispensation – specifically the dynastic rule over the last 60 years (Sonia Gandhi seems to be the new Marie Antoinette)

The J Lok Pal bill will solve our problems – even if it doesn’t atleast it can’t get worse than this so it is time to try something new.

I think it is time to distinguish between ‘grand’ and ‘petty’ corruption. People here point out difficulties faced due to petty corruption (difficulty in lodgment of FIR) and link it to the grand political corruption and the unwillingness to address it (Reliance, 3G etc). IMO opinion what affects an Indian citizen in his / her daily life are the pervasive petty corruptions impacting his day-to-day interaction with the state machineries.

The ‘grand corruptions’ have more of a shock value but do not directly impact their life. I mean the recent financial crisis and the associated skeletons (‘The Inside job’ etc) have exposed the extent of greed and corruption of Wall Street and the association of US politicians / bureaucrats in covering up these corruptions. But nobody is calling for a ‘US spring’, blood on the street and other associated anarchy. The reason is simple – In spite of pervasive levels of grand corruption in the US economic / political system, there is much lower levels of petty corruption here. People can and do get a decent level of government service for their tax dollars.

I think the level of angst on the forum is aspirational rather than emanating from the realisation of actual street level corruption in India. I believe this stems from watching news-bytes about ‘sensational’ corruption, rather than actually living through the daily grind of corruption in India.

Second, the support for jan-lok pal bill comes from a more insidious view IMO. It is a way of middle class India to take back the ruling privilege through an unelected body – the Jlok-pal. It comes from decades of watching the ‘poor unwashed’ using their ‘tyranny of the majority’ to vote in year after year the same corrupt politicians who have at election time bribed them with free food, free electricity and free TV. Grand corruption becomes an eyesore only when the belly is full. Jan lok Pal allows a set of middle-class, educated, honest morally upright gentle (wo)men (the way we see ourselves) to wave a big stick at a corrupt though elected government. Something we are unable to do anything about today.

My view - Let the country transition into a middle income country per capita, what is a middle class aspiration today, will become a general aspiration tomorrow. In a micro-sense it is already happening. Can one imagine the daughter of the DMK supremo in jail as well as Reliance executives even 10 years back?

Finally, On the jan lok pal per se. I’m not sure what exactly it offers that cannot be done by strengthening the existing institutions. Give teeth to the CVC for instance. Second, is there any reason to believe that members of the janlok pal will be incorruptible? Do we then ask for a janlokpal ^2 to take care of Janlokpal 1? And then create a Janlok pal ^3 to take care to 2? As an aside, I remember a conversation with Dr Narendra Jadhav many years ago (he is a person on the list of proposed jlokpal members) – His view was that many in the bureaucracy have ‘chosen to crawl, when they were merely asked to bend’. This is a disease that no lok-pal bill will cure.

As things stand today, the jan lok pal and its support reminds me of the ‘Civil Servant Syllogism’ popularized in Yes Minister. It says:
Step 1: We must do something
Step 2: This is something
Step 3: We must do this

[Muppalla]

nataraja,

I did not follow this thread probably after page#30. However here are my views regarding corruption from a practical perspective.

(1) Corruption is universal and it can only be tackled/reduced but cannot be eradicated by any new laws. I just do not support Lokpal or even any other law on top of the existing ones. I don't care whether it comes from Anna or BRD. To me, more laws are just ridiculous. However, I strongly support their rights to protest. Their movements should be respected and allow discussion to transform for more transperancy based reforms.

(2) Not all money that is called black is fradulent (looted) money. Most of the money is purely tax evasion of a normally earned money.

(3) India is not a powerful country and it is not practical to bring back the money that has gone out and to go after the bad guys. The powerful nexus is impossible to break and futile to try. Unless we are huge economic and military power,we will not be able to even do a zlitch about it.

However, what happened in India over a period of time is solidification of folks who can easily do the fraud and escape with no punishment. Had it been the consistent and regular power changing several groups of people (politicians, businesses, and also babus) we would not have seen such rampant corruption.

In my view what needs to done to tackle the solidification of a group of crooks and also corruption in general are few reforms across the board and they should be to simplify the structure and not to complicate things:

(1) Fundamentally India's democracy is being ruled not by a majority. The guy who is winning gets less that 50% of votes polled. Entire strategy these days is to find a way to win with just 15% of votes polled. Create a run off election between the top two candidates to get the winner. This way one will force a real winner. Otherwise the system is open to manipulation by freebies and divisions by money power. Again no BS with complicated preferential voting systems followed by some island countries with less than a thousand people as population. Just keep conducting two rounds of election and that will wear out the current divide and rule strategy. This will force the parties to strategize on inclusiveness rather than strategies of dividing the middle classes on caste/religion while hoarding the poor by using bribes+freebies to the booths with a bonus of voting fraud at selected booths.

(2) Use technology and reduce a lot of government and un-necessary red tape based work flows. In fact Anna Hazare types should agitate for transparency systems and not for super laws so that it creates easy access for Medha Patkar and Arundhati Roy types to blackmail PMs and others in future. These are dangers that anyone can engineer destabilizing stuff on India by infiltrating the civil society.

(3) Streamline taxation, bring on GST faster and increase the tax base. Bring back foreign stashed money using schemes and not via punishments.

(4) Reform agriculture so that it becomes a viable business and make sure there are no small and negligible farmers. Bring back large farmers and corporations with lease and grow models. No small farmers who always looks for help with no room to take risks.

(5) Reform judiciary to increase the speed of judgements. Technolgy implementation again.

[SwamyG]

Somnath:
The credit does not belong to me. I am just highlighting the Purusharthas. After the failure of USSR and USA style economics, the mind wanders to ponder what will make us humans happy and life more sustainable on this planet. Mind comes back to the term that we earn our artha and kama under dharma. It is easier said than done. Electricity is like human mind, takes the path of least resistance.

I am talking about corruption too, not some religious or spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Just because I used (purposely) some Sanskrit terms like sanskriti, dharma, artha, karma etc does not mean I am not talking corruption. Like I have pointed out so earlier, some of you are talking about regulations and policies. I am all in favor for bringing the best laws, policies and regulations. Reform. Make the government effecient, productive and create a system that is beneficial to the citizens - a.k.a sustaining system - a.k.a a dharmic system. We all would agree of good and clean governance. Transparent systems. Bji suggested e-governance and other things, you rejected them or did not think high of other ideas. I was in AP when Naidu ushered in e-governance. You do not need a bill. Internet has helped us a lot, and will help.

But I also see a need to bring out the best in people. How can you say limited, if Ramdev can attract thousands to the capital? If you monitor any spiritual guru, you see people throng to them - does not matter what religion the gurus belong.

We do not find reasonable solutions, be it a tannery or a nuclear plant near a city because we are living on a state of High. Just like the weed junkie who is high on drugs, we are in a state of high - needing an iPhone, iPad, cars, gadgets etc.

Anybody who thinks or expects corruption to change immediately after any bill is passed in Parliament is naive. However it does not mean I am opposed to any good bill.

[somnath]

Arnab, you are largely correct on the issue of "grand corruption" vis a vis petty corruption, and the relative responses to both...However, it also a fact that most "revolutions", from the Russian to the various "colour" ones in East Europe to The "springs" in ME, are driven by the elites, or a section of it...So the views of the middle class elites matter - in India, that elite is not just incensed with instances of "headline corruption", but is impatient to get on with their higher aspirations in life, which petty corruption put chains on...Hence, the angst...

I’m not sure what exactly it offers that cannot be done by strengthening the existing institutions. Give teeth to the CVC for instance. Second, is there any reason to believe that members of the janlok pal will be incorruptible? Do we then ask for a janlokpal ^2 to take care of Janlokpal 1? And then create a Janlok pal ^3 to take care to 2? As an aside, I remember a conversation with Dr Narendra Jadhav many years ago (he is a person on the list of proposed jlokpal members) – His view was that many in the bureaucracy have ‘chosen to crawl, when they were merely asked to bend’

The whole business of "strengthening" existin institutions sometimes sounds easier than what it really is to implement..Reason? Legacy..To that extent, setting up a new institutional framework is a pretty ok via media...Importantly, the setting up of institutional "independence" on anti-corruption is a disruptive step...And if done, this would be the second such reform by the UPA, the first being the RTI Act..

BTW, NAren Jadhav is part of NAC As an aside, he is eminently suited to be a Lokpal, an amazing person...

But the more relevant point is that Sonia Gandhi is lower on depth, higher on rhetoric than BR. And she still has a measure of public support. Which is the only reason guys like me support BR - to fight fire with fire

There is a small, but all-important difference...SG can be, and has been, voted out...And periodically subjected to PArliamentary scrutiny...BR is a "free bird"..Which is why I said that if his idea is to get into politics, he should do so...This "by proxy", nudge nudge wink wink stuff is dangerous - its good that the guy has been shown his place..

[vera_k]

So how is it that in 65 years of independence, the country is now finally ripe for revolution?

The record so far in countries like South Korea is that it takes rising political conciousness to fuel a revolution that sets a new course. In modern terms this has come to mean dissatisfaction in the urban middle class.

But such things need the support of the Army...which hasn't been very visible so far in India.

[devesh]

BTW, one "externality" which isnt so edifying thas been the absolute "exposure" of the Ramdev shenanigan...It hasnt been edifying not because BR has been marginalised (and shown up to be what a lot of people, myself included thought he was), but because his case becomes a motif for the govt to use for a subsequent attempt at non-politial mobilisations...

Hopefully the relative "success" of the Anna Hazare team will mitigate the damage ...

Regardless of what the pop sociological commentary (as well as the credibly sociological ones - I was surprised at Shiv Vishwanathan's intervention in the debate) says, BR's efforts were no different from a typical politician low on depth and high on rhetoric, with a measure of public support...Reminds me of efforts like Devi Lal's (in)famous farmer rally in Delhi, ostensibly to argue for "farmer rights", but really to pose tough questions to VP Singh (who Devi Lal considerd to be a usurper to the PM throne)..As soon as VP Singh responded with Mandal, the "farmer rights" agitprop disappeared...To be honest, Devi Lal had a better grasp of at least some ground realities confronting farmers than BR has on any of the issues he is talking about...

I would say, good riddance...Serious people can focus on the real tasks on hand, and the media can be suitably used for that...

I am all for the Indian Spring

Well, daresay you might have to wait till qayamat for that, and khuda karein, ki qayamat na ho!

what is this "success" that Hazare has achieved? I have yet to see it.

There is a small, but all-important difference...SG can be, and has been, voted out...And periodically subjected to PArliamentary scrutiny...BR is a "free bird"..Which is why I said that if his idea is to get into politics, he should do so...This "by proxy", nudge nudge wink wink stuff is dangerous - its good that the guy has been shown his place..

Somnath:
you are truly skilled at the art of dissembling. You are the only one who has described Baba Ramdev as "wink wink nudge nudge." you either don't understand what that means, or you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts. "subtle" is the one objective that nobody can give BRD. you are claiming that he is playing secret behind the scenes role. as we all know, there was nothing subtle or "wink wink nudge nudge" about his actions......this is blatant lies.

[nataraja]

So how is it that in 65 years of independence, the country is now finally ripe for revolution?

The record so far in countries like South Korea is that it takes rising political conciousness to fuel a revolution that sets a new course. In modern terms this has come to mean dissatisfaction in the urban middle class.

But such things need the support of the Army...which hasn't been very visible so far in India.

No army required.

A million unarmed citizens on the streets of Delhi staging a disciplined two week sit-in oughta be sufficient to do in this house of cards.

[vera_k]

^^^

It's what happens after then that matters. Elections are liable to give rise to some weak government from the Opposition parties that is unable to carry out the required purges. Eerily similar to the SK democratic interlude mentioned here.

http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/

[Merril]

No army required.

A million unarmed citizens on the streets of Delhi staging a disciplined two week sit-in oughta be sufficient to do in this house of cards.

Choti muh and probably very badi baath -> If one can ostensibly get a million people to stage a two week disciplined sit in at Delhi, wouldn't we be able to get the same one million people to vote out a corrupt government? And if one could do that, wouldn't that be a more democratic way to resolve the current scenario. In my opinion, that is better than the so called ideas of an Indian Spring.

JMT

[somnath]

The record so far in countries like South Korea is that it takes rising political conciousness to fuel a revolution that sets a new course. In modern terms this has come to mean dissatisfaction in the urban middle class.

Again, extremely unfair, and wrong analogy...South Korea was under effective Army rule for half of its post-war history..And political consciousness!? India and Indians have a lot to teach every single Asian country (even an established democracy like Japan) on what it means...We vote in the 70s and 80s - its unheard of anywhere else..Is it a sign of lack of consciousness, or a very deep and abiding and strengtehning one?

what is this "success" that Hazare has achieved? I have yet to see it

Just follow the sequence of events on Lokpal - its well captured here in various pages...Something pending for 40 years, emasculated initial draft, today is ready in a good shape to be presented to Parliament..And public momentum to push it through Parliament as well..

You are the only one who has described Baba Ramdev as "wink wink nudge nudge."

Not the person or his idiosyncracies, his approach...As they say, if it wakls like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck...Maybe in his case, we need to replace duck with Dodo to get the analogy perfect!

[Arjun]

There is a small, but all-important difference...SG can be, and has been, voted out...And periodically subjected to PArliamentary scrutiny...BR is a "free bird"..Which is why I said that if his idea is to get into politics, he should do so...This "by proxy", nudge nudge wink wink stuff is dangerous - its good that the guy has been shown his place..

It looks to me that BR has probably achieved what he set out to do. He is now strongly identified as an anti-corruption activist, & the government action has created the all-important sympathy factor. His political career will be watched with interest. The whole Delhi sit-in was a political launch of sorts and it worked.

As regards capability for governance, ultimately in any democracy the quality of choice of candidates is what matters. In that aspect, Sonia has been responsible for bringing down Indian standards of leadership hugely. This 'generous' country reposed faith in Sonia's background and 'expertise' as a waitress to trust her with running the country...BR comes in with significantly higher degree of credibility as a self-made entrepreneur.

[Raghavendra]

The root cause of all this is the current political dispensation – specifically the dynastic rule over the last 60 years (Sonia Gandhi seems to be the new Marie Antoinette)

True

The J Lok Pal bill will solve our problems – even if it doesn’t atleast it can’t get worse than this so it is time to try something new.

No its just a start, public is demanding accountability of its elected representatives

The ‘grand corruptions’ have more of a shock value but do not directly impact their life.

Thousands of crores of public money have been stolen and you claim it doesnt effect the public, ridiculous claim, more in sync with rahul's dufferism

Loss of public funds means more taxes on the public, increasing food prices and that stolen black money stored in swiss banks will be used for anti-indian purposes which again ultimately affects the public

Second, the support for jan-lok pal bill comes from a more insidious view IMO. It is a way of middle class India to take back the ruling privilege through an unelected body – the Jlok-pal.

communists sees middle class eveywhere, they are so deathly afraid of the middle class

come on break your mental shackles of class warfare and see the reality instead of being in perpetual fear of the middle class and demonising it

The public from all classes is demanding an end to corruption, that's all, why is it hard for the commie mind to understand this simple fact

My view - Let the country transition into a middle income country per capita, what is a middle class aspiration today, will become a general aspiration tomorrow.

Oh yes the manmohan's pet theory , This theory holds that India will have to wait to turn middle income country to solve all issues from terrorism, corruption, price rise, infrastructure problems and until then keep quiet and keep supporting this corrupt tyrant terrorist loving manmohan singh sarkar. Not going to happen, either sonia-manmohan sarkar changes its ways or public will change it

[Arjun]

Choti muh and probably very badi baath -> If one can ostensibly get a million people to stage a two week disciplined sit in at Delhi, wouldn't we be able to get the same one million people to vote out a corrupt government? And if one could do that, wouldn't that be a more democratic way to resolve the current scenario. In my opinion, that is better than the so called ideas of an Indian Spring.

It is the symbolism that matters which would ultimately translate to votes in an election. The Indian electorate seems to go more by symbolism than based on debate of actual issues.

[somnath]

But I also see a need to bring out the best in people. How can you say limited, if Ramdev can attract thousands to the capital? If you monitor any spiritual guru, you see people throng to them - does not matter what religion the gurus belong.

SwamyG, I respect your POV on greed et al, it has merits, albeit not ones that I necessarily appreciate as being contemporary, but something that you have an unimpeachable and evalngelical right to hold ...

On the issue of Ramdev though, I differ...people thronged to his mela @ Ramlila not because of any "dharmic" connection, IMO...They saw in him a person who can kick butt, and do so with possible "effect" - people wanted to kick butt as well, so the lightbees converged towards the supposed lamp, thats all...they didnt realise that he was not a lamp, but a fake shade...When they did, he fell by the wayside as well..

On gurus in general, personally I am a big sceptic, and my hypotheses on why they have a following would take this thread way OT - but again, its an intensely personal decision...

As an aside, since we are on the topic, I remember a discussion between Sri Sri Ravishankar and Javed Akhtar in an India Today Conclave a few years back, on spirituality or some such..JA made an interesting comment - the spiritual gurus of the yesteryears were typically born in the palace and wandered away towards lesser and lesser affluence in their search for the "goals" (he took Buddha's example)...The gurus of today are usually born in lesser means, but wander into increasingly opulent palaces in their search! (I am paraphrasing from memory, not exact words)...

[Arjun]

Self deleted. Duplicate post

[arnab]

Thousands of crores of public money have been stolen and you claim it doesnt effect the public, ridiculous claim, more in sync with rahul's dufferism

Loss of public funds means more taxes on the public, increasing food prices and that stolen black money stored in swiss banks will be used for anti-indian purposes which again ultimately affects the public

Second, the support for jan-lok pal bill comes from a more insidious view IMO. It is a way of middle class India to take back the ruling privilege through an unelected body – the Jlok-pal.

Oh yes the manmohan's pet theory , This theory holds that India will have to wait to turn middle income country to solve all issues from terrorism, corruption, price rise, infrastructure problems and until then keep quiet and keep supporting this corrupt tyrant terrorist loving manmohan singh sarkar. Not going to happen, either sonia-manmohan sarkar changes its ways or public will change it

Wow - Well explain to me how much money has been 'stolen' and how much 'new' taxes have you been paying? 3G scam was 'notional' in the sense that it was supposedly worth $x crores but was sold for a fraction of this notional value. When you have something substantive to add - do come back and post

and yes - public policy and nation building is a slow moving process. It is not a software program bug where you insert a new code to solve it instantly. So MMS's theory is right and no you don't have to support MMS sarkar - do feel free to vote it out.

[devesh]

http://persmin.nic.in/Lokpal/Lokpal_Bill_Version2.3.pdf

if you read the part about eligibility of candidates as "member" and/or "chairperson" of the committee, you will see that the rules are extremely lax. there is only a superficial definition of what "association" means. simply stating that "there will be no association with any political party" is not enough. how do you define "association?"

has anyone seen the section on the "Lokpal Fund?" to those who haven't, please do. it's on page 8. they want 10% of the loot in any "investigations" that they start. for example, if there is an investigation into a 300 crore scam, then 30 crore of that has to be deposited by GoI in the "Lokpal Fund." and the spending of this money is at complete discretion of the Lokpal committee. they are basically appropriating their % of the commission. this bill is so preposterous, it's a joke to consider it a "success."

and what the hell is "public feedback?" i mean seriously, there is no definition given for this phrase. who frames this "feedback?" is it the mainstream media? and what parameters are used to judge the "public feedback?" is it majority rules? or is significant minority rules? if there are several significant minorities, what are the rules? "public feedback" is such a vague term, and they include this in the process for selecting candidates. this "feedback" can easily be hijacked and manufactured by any number of vested media interests...

and the language about "using any means necessary" to collect info on possible candidates is more disturbing. does "any means" involve direct appropriation of GoI assets like CBI, IB, or State Police to do covert investigations on prospective candidates of the Lokpal?

from the language of the bill, including the salary, the Chairperson is to be treated on par with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. where is all the talk about "extra constitutional?" the chairperson is not elected. he is not part of a legitimate government machinery, like the Judiciary (which is a branch of the government),

and to top it all off, what happens when a spineless follower like Pratibha Patil is the President? what happens when the President is nothing more than a puppet in the hands of the ruling party or some other political dynasty? how do you protect the integrity of Lokpal when the President, who is given much power in Lokpal's affairs, is just an obedient poodle?

it is interesting that Lokpal has made the President to be the center of attention. this is curious. the President is the titular head. he has no real authority other than that given to him by those who put him in power. The President himself/herself is a position that can be renewed. so the self interest of the President will be a factor in his/her judgement. he needs political parties and politicians to vote for him, if he has to keep his post for maximum number of years. how does Lokpal intend to judge the "levelheadedness" of the President?

the bill has all the hallmarks of an idealistic crusade. ultimately though, there are so many loopholes that it will most likely become another political slugfest for politicians to selectively target their enemies. the Judiciary remains free from depending on Politicians. Lokpal is trying to up-end that. ultimately Politicians have to nominate member of the committee. which means that Political Parties will increasingly start focusing on "nurturing" possible candidates. this increasingly will become like the US system of political and ideological nominations in the Judiciary. the major difference being that the Judiciary nominations in US are subject to full investigation by both Houses of Congress. under Lokpal, it will be confined to a very small group of people. this is even more secretive than the "Parliamentary nomination" policy that many argue for.

[Raghavendra]

Thousands of crores of public money have been stolen and you claim it doesnt effect the public, ridiculous claim, more in sync with rahul's dufferism

Loss of public funds means more taxes on the public, increasing food prices and that stolen black money stored in swiss banks will be used for anti-indian purposes which again ultimately affects the public

Oh yes the manmohan's pet theory , This theory holds that India will have to wait to turn middle income country to solve all issues from terrorism, corruption, price rise, infrastructure problems and until then keep quiet and keep supporting this corrupt tyrant terrorist loving manmohan singh sarkar. Not going to happen, either sonia-manmohan sarkar changes its ways or public will change it

Wow - Well explain to me how much money has been 'stolen' and how much 'new' taxes have you been paying?

See CAG report on 2G scam, Shunglu report for CWG scam for the amount of public money stolen

Ever wondered why manmohan keeps raising fuel prices which in turns increases food prices? That's a tax too.

3G scam was 'notional' in the sense that it was worth $x crores but was sold for a fraction of this notional value. When you have something substantive to add - do come back and post

It was 2G scam not 3G.
Keep repeating kapil sibal's lie, that notional money would have end up in government coffers but ended up in kani's and sonia's accounts. Public money was stolen and this stupid lie of notion value is being repeated. If no money was stolen why is kani in jail, is that notional too

and yes - public policy and nation building is a slow moving process. It is not a software program where you insert a new code to solve it instantly. So MMS's theory is right and no you don't have to support MMS sarkar - do feel free to vote it out.

MMS theory of repeating lies may be right for you but not for the public, keep supporting tyrants they will surely reward their lackeys, case in point barkha dutt, the silent heroine of 2G scam was awarded padma sri. So put that dog chain around your neck and keep lobbying for an award but dont expect the public to respect such chamchas, see the way public treats barkha, you will meet the same fate.

[arnab]

Ever wondered why manmohan keeps raising fuel prices which in turns increases food prices? That's a tax too.

3G scam was 'notional' in the sense that it was worth $x crores but was sold for a fraction of this notional value. When you have something substantive to add - do come back and post

It was 2G scam not 3G.
Keep repeating kapil sibal's lie, that notional money would have end up in government coffers but ended up in kani's and sonia's accounts. Public money was stolen and this stupid lie of notion value is being repeated. If no money was stolen why is kani in jail, is that notional too

and yes - public policy and nation building is a slow moving process. It is not a software program where you insert a new code to solve it instantly. So MMS's theory is right and no you don't have to support MMS sarkar - do feel free to vote it out.

MMS theory of repeating lies may be right for you but not for the public, keep supporting tyrants they will surely reward their lackeys, case in point barkha dutt, the silent heroine of 2G scam was awarded padma sri. So put that dog chain around your neck and keep lobbying for an award but dont expect the public to respect such chamchas, see the way public treats barkha, you will meet the same fate.

Actually fuel prices are subsidised in India. Check fuel and fertiliser subsidy in India. Your 3G scams and black money being repatriated out of india is not contributing to inflation.

Saar you keep bleating about 'public seeing through MMs's game' but in the same breath you want to short circuit the public process of electoral accountability and hand it over to some vague lok-pal. Then you bring in strawmen arguments about burkha dutt. If public are seeing all this - public will punish - no? . What does the lok-pal offer which does not exist institutionally already. In fact the lok-pal by all accounts is shaping up to be a new 'Mr 10 per cent'

Incidentally Khimozi and A Raja are in jail for 'favouring' certain parties and receiving financial inducements to subvert a due process. 'Stealing public money' refers to taking money from the consolidated fund (CF) of India and putting it into your private account. The question of 'stealing' money from the consolidated fund does not arise - because no such money existed in the CF - therefore it is 'notional'. Hope you understand the difference

[somnath]

you will see that the rules are extremely lax. there is only a superficial definition of what "association" means. simply stating that "there will be no association with any political party" is not enough. how do you define "association?

What is "lax"? All that the Bill says is that if there is anything that the individual is doing that conflicts with his duties as Lokpal, he should suspend that..Including "connection" with political parties..Which can mean anything, from membership to holding consulting assignments from a party - it is a standard sine qua non for many constitutoinla posts, not just Lokpal...

has anyone seen the section on the "Lokpal Fund?" to those who haven't, please do. it's on page 8. they want 10% of the loot in any "investigations" that they start.

Its slightly odd, but the money isnt going to individual Lokpal members as commisison, you know?

and what the hell is "public feedback?" i mean seriously, there is no definition given for this phrase

What is it that you want to define in that? Names of prospective candidates are putup on the website, an the public is invited to give feedback on them..And they are taken as inputs for the selection committee...

and the language about "using any means necessary" to collect info on possible candidates is more disturbing. does "any means" involve direct appropriation of GoI assets like CBI, IB, or State Police to do covert investigations on prospective candidates of the Lokpal?

Again, ignorance of the process...All appoointments of senior govt functionaries, especially Constitutional authorities, are currently taken through a vetting process by both IB and CBI...Even Padma award winners...

the Chairperson is to be treated on par with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. where is all the talk about "extra constitutional?" the chairperson is not elected. he is not part of a legitimate government machinery, like the Judiciary (which is a branch of the government

Who said Lokpal is "extra constitutional"?! I mean why would the govt set up an extra constitutional authorty? And just because Lokpal is not elected, he is not part of "legitimate govt machinery"! Neither are the service chiefs, judges, CAG, CVC and a host of other fucntionaries...

what happens when a spineless follower like Pratibha Patil is the President? what happens when the President is nothing more than a puppet in the hands of the ruling party or some other political dynasty? how do you protect the integrity of Lokpal when the President, who is given much power in Lokpal's affairs, is just an obedient poodle

President is not selecting Lokpal members, the selection committee, comprising elected representatives of the people and a few more, is...

it is interesting that Lokpal has made the President to be the center of attention

All public servants servve at the plesure of the President...What is this "centre of attentoin"?

About loopholes etc, why dont you give your feedback to the guys making the attempt? I had posted the link earlier (and my own feedback to them)..That way, you would make some material contribution to the process...

[Raghavendra]

Actually fuel prices are subsidised in India.

YAWN another white lie

Minus tax, petrol would cost Rs 18/litre http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/27petro.htm

Petrol price of Rs 40.49 a litre in Delhi is 57 per cent (Rs 23.09) made up of customs, excise duty and sales tax. Price of petrol without customs duty, excise duty and sales tax components would be Rs 17.40 per litre, he said in a written reply to the Rajya Sabha.

This is your subsidy looting people by imposing high taxes and calling this subsidy, we dont want your subsidy, go remove it, We are better off without it

Your 3G scams and black money being repatriated out of india is not contributing to inflation.

WTF is this 3G scam? You are not listening, its a 2G scam

Stealing public money reduces government funds forcing the sarkar to increase public taxation to cover the shortfall , its as simple as that but you dont understand logic

Saar you keep bleating about 'public seeing through MMs's game' but in the same breath you want to short circuit the public process of electoral accountability and hand it over to some vague lok-pal.

Commie birather I never said that , you have a reading problem, stop hanging out with commie bums, they are reducing your mental level

Then you bring in strawmen arguments about burkha dutt.

Did you listen to the radia tapes? barkha is part of the scam brokering deals among corrupt netas and their business chelas, you are being silly saying this a strawman argument. I guess you are afraid to debate and trying to run away

In fact the lok-pal by all accounts is shaping up to be a new 'Mr 10 per cent'

Another shameless allegation typical of congress duffers. When someone points out corruption in Congress party a duffer pops out and accuses the other of being corrupt too. Any proof of Anna Hazare being corrupt?

Incidentally Khimozi and A Raja are in jail for 'favouring' certain parties and receiving financial inducements to subvert a due process.

Khimozi commie birather has problem remembering names, oh well i guess this is his mental level

That 'favour' resulted in the loss of money to the public exchequer , that proves my point of loot of public money

[Merril]

Choti muh and probably very badi baath -> If one can ostensibly get a million people to stage a two week disciplined sit in at Delhi, wouldn't we be able to get the same one million people to vote out a corrupt government? And if one could do that, wouldn't that be a more democratic way to resolve the current scenario. In my opinion, that is better than the so called ideas of an Indian Spring.

It is the symbolism that matters which would ultimately translate to votes in an election. The Indian electorate seems to go more by symbolism than based on debate of actual issues.

Fair point. However, what I was alluding to was that if one had the wherewithal to mobilise a million people to sit in for a week, it would make better sense to mobilise them for a one hour trip to the polling booth. I think that is the central idea most have been debating on in this thread.

Rather than create some symbolism (which you have to agree may have much lost in translation), it would serve the purpose more to mobilise public to vote out governments that are allegedly corrupt.

[devesh]

What is "lax"? All that the Bill says is that if there is anything that the individual is doing that conflicts with his duties as Lokpal, he should suspend that..Including "connection" with political parties..Which can mean anything, from membership to holding consulting assignments from a party - it is a standard sine qua non for many constitutoinla posts, not just Lokpal...

if my brother or sister is participating in a "political" entity, does that bar me from eligibility? what is the "anything" that you are talking about? "association" has to be specifically defined. that is a blaring weakness in the bill. it would be easy to rectify if they look into it and spend some time to clarify it.

Its slightly odd, but the money isnt going to individual Lokpal members as commisison, you know?

myself and 5 other people from my colony decide to form a committee and decide that we're going to impose strict fines on all forms of pollution created by people, and then appropriate 10% of those fines exclusively for us 5-member committee.....nope, I don't see anything wrong from that.

What is it that you want to define in that? Names of prospective candidates are putup on the website, an the public is invited to give feedback on them..And they are taken as inputs for the selection committee...

let me be more specific. what is the exact forum for getting the feedback? TV interviews? letters to the editor? online response from conveniently anonymous users? they want to use "public feedback" to assess candidates. that is a serious thing. any parameter used to select candidates has to be carefully defined and established, so that vague terms are not abused to justify dubious actions later on.

Again, ignorance of the process...All appoointments of senior govt functionaries, especially Constitutional authorities, are currently taken through a vetting process by both IB and CBI...Even Padma award winners...

If this is true, I take back my objection. I was not aware of such investigations.

Who said Lokpal is "extra constitutional"?! I mean why would the govt set up an extra constitutional authorty? And just because Lokpal is not elected, he is not part of "legitimate govt machinery"! Neither are the service chiefs, judges, CAG, CVC and a host of other fucntionaries...

Sonia Gandhi set up the NAC. clearly, that is an Extra constitutional authority. or is it not? you tell me why the govt would establish such an authority? why such indignation when it has already happened at the highest level of political process? the NAC is advising on parliamentary bills and legislative policies for entire India. why are you acting all ignorant about this?

service chiefs spend decades in service and prove their mettle. they serve the country as their profession and eventually become chiefs. no comparison to Lokpal, whose selection itself is not on solid grounds as long as Lokpal bill has loopholes.
judges, CAG, CVC, are all staffed by dedicated civil service members who work for decades and eventually rise to the level of Heads and directors.

the Lokpal members can be from academia, and members of "civil society" like Teesta Setalvad. she is not officially affiliated with any political party. and the language used in Lokpal is nowhere near specific enough or well defined to prevent misuse of vague terms. this is a very serious concern. even ex-IIT's like Praful Bidwai can be nominated b/c they are "officially" not associated with any political party. the word "association" has to be very specifically defined. otherwise, Lokpal will become a tyrannical body which specifically targets certain sections.

the biggest points of concern are: 1. President is only a titular head and Lokpal disregards the President's possible selfish motives, and 2. INC has and continues to hold power for the majority of time (there is no check on INC's ability to propagate its interests and target "others" who are inimical to their interests; this to me is a very real concern. it should be a concern for every Indian who believes that when vested interests continue to hold power for a very long period of time, they have the ability to establish influence and power over vast areas of govt administration b/c they can).

[Dhiman]

I agree with that. Our judiciary is strong,but our democracy is not matured, our politicians are not matured,and we have almost everyone flouting power, when they get elected.

If by "strong" you mean that the Supreme Court is able to hold its own fort and has the ability and motivation to uphold the public interest, then I definitely agree with you. But beyond that the common public is literally scared of all the hassles of getting involved in a court case and this is one reason why small scale corruption is so rampant, because the common public finds the state of affairs of the judiciary highly discouraging when it comes to filing, fighting, and finally getting court cases resolved.
The day-to-day function of the court system is complete opposite of a "strong judicary image" where cases take years (if not decades) to resolve, there is massive pending case load, not enough courts, and those courts that exist are understaffed. As a result

Is that cause for complete disenchantment with the system just yet?

Arjun ji, many of your views reflect my own and I will like to expand on this one in particular. There are definitely sections of society that have a lot to look forward to - specially the section that is direct beneficiary of the economic reforms. This section can afford to pay Rs 10,000 a month just for ensuring clean water and 24 hours electricity in their comfy high-rises with security guards. But if you look beyond this small minority, it really depends upon who you talk to regarding their level of disenchantment.

In short (I have said this earlier and will continue repeating it), we need comprehensive reform in governance in the country and certainly this "corruption issue" has propelled a lot of thinking around that.

1. That the problem of 'corruption' is one of definition, policy reform and rational law. Escapes them now.

You seem to be making a fundamental mistake between cause and effect. The cause is "public anger", the effect is government running scared and trying to get away with doing minimum possible to placate this public anger. Without something to push and motivate the government, this so called "policy reform and rational law" is not going to happen.

That is the only contention between your opinion and the opinion of other posters on this forum, IMHO. Personally though, I prefer a revolution followed by a witch hunt.

I hope this thread is preserved from 10 years from now. For those that challenged and argued against me and Somnath Ji here. Why 10 years? Is because things will become clearer to them, possibly at that time frame only.:

Sure, wait 10 years for each issue of bad governance to be resolved by paper pushing and do the math yourself as to how long it will take.

However - First point to remember is that authoritarian and despotic systems of governance are absolutely not the solution..and bringing in comparison to Paki / Chinese forms of government is the easiest way to kill any hope of support you will get not only on this forum but anywhere in India.

As far as I know whether one prefers the word "ethics" or "dharma" (that's an issue because some would have an allergic reaction to word "dharma" for obvious reasons), the fact of the matter is that the ethics/dharma is the fundamental basis of law and policy making.

For example, the thing that I dislike most about authoritarian regimes (such as the Chinese model) is that their laws and policies are based on the fundamental principal that "humans don't have an ability to make right decision when given free choice" and need an autocratic structure to tell them to do what is needed. However, nothing could be further from the truth given that even in China "growth" is a result of devolving economic power in the hands of the people rather than concentrating power upwards.

This is a direct fundamental contradiction to the principals behind a democratic system.

Second point is that any system needs to be pro-growth and allow for flowering of India's natural entrepreneurship talent.

What can be cause for revolution is continued subversion of true liberal governance in India. And the aim of any such revolution would be to eliminate the corruption that goes against the spirit of liberalism in Indian democracy (such as continued dynasticism, money-power in elections, growth of exclusivist ideologies), and bring back true liberal governance.

Correct Sir You are already laying the guiding principals for the next revolution

[arnab]

Actually fuel prices are subsidised in India.

YAWN another white lie

Minus tax, petrol would cost Rs 18/litre http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/27petro.htm

Petrol price of Rs 40.49 a litre in Delhi is 57 per cent (Rs 23.09) made up of customs, excise duty and sales tax. Price of petrol without customs duty, excise duty and sales tax components would be Rs 17.40 per litre, he said in a written reply to the Rajya Sabha.

This is your subsidy looting people by imposing high taxes and calling this subsidy, we dont want your subsidy, go remove it, We are better off without it

Sigh - A rediff reader. I should have known

Of the Rs. 78,159-crore revenue that retailers lost on selling diesel, LPG and kerosene at government controlled rates in 2010-11, upstream firms - ONGC, Oil India and GAIL- have been ordered to contribute Rs. 30,296.75 crore (38.8 per cent).

http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/ongc-o ... -155555?cp

Umm a quick question - I'm indeed curious to know if you have a point other than blaming INC and Burkha Dutt and claiming people are 'seeing through every thing' If they are - why worry? And I'm not sure when the debate is about the lok-pal bill, you are bringing in Burkha and A Raja et al. Did the lok pal bill convict (not convict) Raja? But as noted earlier - comprehension of basic english was never your forte - so will not be holding my breath

And ah - a noted distaste in paying taxes - yet want 'first world' government services instantly. How cute

[vera_k]

Again, extremely unfair, and wrong analogy...South Korea was under effective Army rule for half of its post-war history..And political consciousness!? India and Indians have a lot to teach every single Asian country (even an established democracy like Japan) on what it means...We vote in the 70s and 80s - its unheard of anywhere else..Is it a sign of lack of consciousness, or a very deep and abiding and strengtehning one?

Don't see why it is unfair. They turned to a authoritarian system only after weak democratic governments could not get rid of corruption. SK started out behind Pakistan and India, and has a $20,000 per capita GDP today...something India is not projected to reach even in 2050.

Lack of political consciousness is reflected in the electorates inablity to get what they want through democratic means.

[somnath]

if my brother or sister is participating in a "political" entity, does that bar me from eligibility? what is the "anything" that you are talking about? "association" has to be specifically defined. that is a blaring weakness in the bill. it would be easy to rectify if they look into it and spend some time to clarify it.

In case "family connections" are to be grandfathered, they are specifically mentioned in govt service rules...In this case, since its not mentioned, it means only connection of the individual...About what constitutes "conflict of interest", it can never be defined to the last t, not even in private companies...It is a judgement call exercised by the appointing authority and the individual himself...True for all public appointments, including judges..

myself and 5 other people from my colony decide to form a committee and decide that we're going to impose strict fines on all forms of pollution created by people, and then appropriate 10% of those fines exclusively for us 5-member committee.....nope, I don't see anything wrong from that

Not for the 5 people personally, but for the "society"? Happens all the time..Most buildings in Mumbai have something similar...Its a bit odd in a public setup, but there are no personal pecuniary benefits being gained here..

let me be more specific. what is the exact forum for getting the feedback? TV interviews? letters to the editor? online response from conveniently anonymous users? they want to use "public feedback" to assess candidates. that is a serious thing. any parameter used to select candidates has to be carefully defined and established, so that vague terms are not abused to justify dubious actions later on.

they are asking for feedback from the public..How can they define "paramters"? I mean, feedback can range from "he is a communist because he attended SFI in his college", to "he is a chor because he took a bribe so and so" to "he is a good guy, helped me with a reco"....Its not as if this feedback will decide the selection..The selection committee will have a much larger infrastructure to do their job than just random feedback..But at the margin, its a good step!

Lastly,

Sonia Gandhi set up the NAC. clearly, that is an Extra constitutional authority. or is it not? you tell me why the govt would establish such an authority? why such indignation when it has already happened at the highest level of political process? the NAC is advising on parliamentary bills and legislative policies for entire India.

It is not..I had posted (maybe on another thread) - NAC was setup through an executive order as an advisory body reporting to PMO...It is an advisory body, like thosands of others setup by the govt..The reason for its profile is Sonia Gandhi being the Chairperson...But remember, NAC does nothing but "advisory", that too on legislations, where the real action is not with the govt, but in Parliament...It has no executive powers...

judges, CAG, CVC, are all staffed by dedicated civil service members who work for decades and eventually rise to the level of Heads and directors

some more ignorance..Judges can be, and are, selected from the bar as well...RBI guvs can be selected from outside RBI or civil service (and have been, often)...

. President is only a titular head and Lokpal disregards the President's possible selfish motives, and 2. INC has and continues to hold power for the majority of time (there is no check on INC's ability to propagate its interests and target "others" who are inimical to their interests

You want the President to be under the Lokpal ambit? Why? If INC is in power, they already have lots of levers to "go after" people they dislike.Lokpal isnt required..

[jamwal]

Got it from Facebook



To,

Pyare aur satta ke lobhi "Digvijay Ji"

Vidit ho ki "Osama Ji" ke baad ek ek kar ke "Mulla Umar Ji" aur "Ilyas kashmiri Ji" ek ke baad ek america ke barbarta poorn hamle me sahadat ko prapt ho rahe hain aap se kya chhupyein iss dil ko kitna dard ho raha hai hm aap ke dard ko mahasoos kar rahe hain.Ham jante hain ki idhar kuchh dino se aap apna dhyan kuchh "Thado" ki burayi mein laga rahe hain jo wastav mein desh bhakt hain inse aap ko kitni Nafrat hai ye samay samay par press conference mein saaf saaf jhalak uthata hai hai,

Ham aap se nivedan karte hain ki aap america ke saath samast samjauto ko radd kar de kahi aisa na ho ki wo Karachi mein baithe "Dawood ibrahim Ji" ko Apna shikar na bana le,aap apna poora dhyan desh bhakto ke daman par laga sakein.Duniya mein ek chiz (Muh band rakhna ) aap ke liye sabse kathin hai.Madhya Pradesh Ke mukhya mantri ke roop mein aap kam prachalit the parntu idhar beech jab se aap desh bhakto ko aapne nishane par le rahe hain tab se aap bade hi prachalit ho gaye hain suna hai aap Rahul ji ko bhi rajneeti padhate ho aap bilkul daitya guru "Shukracharya" ki tarah ho.Aap ke raste par "Janardan Ji" bhi badh chale hain,aasha hai ki wo bhi "Bakwaas" karke desh ko bharmaaye rakhenge.Hamare Imaandaar aur saaf suthari chhavi wale Dritraastra tulya "Manmohan Ji" ko burayiya dikhayi aur sunai nahin detiSahi artho mein Gandhi Ji ke aadarsho ka palan Manmohan Ji hi kar rahe hain

"Bura Mat Dekho,Bura Mat Suno"

Aur kya kahein baatein badi lambi chaudi ho jayeingi.App apne mission mein (burai karna) lage rahein.

wiase ham "Ossama ji" ki yaad mein aayojit karyakram ka mukhya atithi ke taur par aap ko amantrit karte hai,hame purn aasha hai ki aap jarur ayeinge.

aur ant mein yahi kahna chahunga ki "Kashab Ji" aur "Afjal Ji" ko koi kast na ho aap sadiyon tak jeete rahein taki saas bahu jaise programo ko TRP kam ho jaye



Aap Ka hi Apna

Aam Adami

Mahngai Se Pareshan Admi

[Raghavendra]

YAWN another white lie
Minus tax, petrol would cost Rs 18/litre http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/27petro.htm
-
Petrol price of Rs 40.49 a litre in Delhi is 57 per cent (Rs 23.09) made up of customs, excise duty and sales tax. Price of petrol without customs duty, excise duty and sales tax components would be Rs 17.40 per litre, he said in a written reply to the Rajya Sabha.
-
This is your subsidy looting people by imposing high taxes and calling this subsidy, we dont want your subsidy, go remove it, We are better off without it

Sigh - A rediff reader. I should have known

Yawn another shill attack, I can link from other news source too if your mental level is so low that you cant google and find another link.

Of the Rs. 78,159-crore revenue that retailers lost on selling diesel, LPG and kerosene at government controlled rates in 2010-11, upstream firms - ONGC, Oil India and GAIL- have been ordered to contribute Rs. 30,296.75 crore (38.8 per cent).
http://profit.ndtv.com/news/show/ongc-o ... -155555?cp

ONGC, Oil India and GAIL are government owned firms which means they use public money to recover these losses. This is a case of ek haath le doosra haath de and crying about subsidy burden. And thanks for sidestepping my question on removing high taxes. If 'subsidies' hurt so much for the sarkar why not remove them, oh wait it will hurt oil goons like reliance which are in bed with congress party in looting public money, see this Congress party favoured RIL in K-G deal: CAG report http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 56733.html

Umm a quick question - I'm indeed curious to know if you have a point other than blaming INC and Burkha Dutt and claiming people are 'seeing through every thing' If they are - why worry?

Sab tere bhalayi ke liye puttar, I dont want you meet the same fate of being abused and called a congress dog by public

And I'm not sure when the debate is about the lok-pal bill, you are bringing in Burkha and A Raja et al.

What is the lokpal bill about? Curbing corruption at high places in public office
Who are barkha dutt and A.Raja? Barkha news anchor who turned dalal for corrupt neta and businessmen. Raja, minister who turned his ministry into a scam office
Both would have been punished if there was a lokpal. Understood?

And ah - a noted distaste in paying taxes - yet want 'first world' government services instantly. How cute

Taxes are meant to be used for public good not to be looted and stored in swiss bank accounts of sonia, either you are a beneficiary of that loot or plain stupid to pay taxes to thieves

[harbans]

The issue of petty corruption is a significant irritation as people face this in their everyday lives. Rahuls read in the police reform thread is recommended. But that's something most of here have faced and the solutions are not too difficult to curb. I mentioned one solution earlier for curbing that: Giving various departments the power to sack inefficient and corrupt employees. People make a bee line to Govt jobs for one singular reason, once in, it's almost impossible to be kicked out despite inefficiency, corruption etc. Promotion is a time bound affair mostly too.

The 2nd point where low level corruption will finish is economic development. A cop earning 4000 Rs to feed his family will at some point be tempted to start making money a 100 Rs for a traffic violation, than give a ticket. The temptation is too much to resist. It makes life easier for his family, probably his wife also encourages him, and when he see's his children cannot even buy their school text books etc, he accepts the 100 bucks offered by the violator without much qualms.

But will a cop that makes 40,000 Rs a month do that. He's not bothered about a 100 rs or his children's school text books or food in his table. He'll give a challan and be done with. SO traffic violations will reduce and traffic will itself become better as a result as people realize bribing a cop is not going to work.

As we move from a 2T to a 6-8 T USD economy in the next 10 years all these changes will be evident. Cops would be making that or more at that juncture. Judiciary would have more money at their disposal, more courts sanctioned and dispensation of cases faster. Even without the LPB these changes will come without much fuss and there will be clearly visible improvements in petty level corruption. With that sort of economy, possibly every Govt office you visit will have air conditioning and the person sitting behind earning a salary that does not require supplementing with a bribe or harassment of the public. Irrespective of the system the magnitude of petty corruption is inversely proportional to the rise in per capita income levels. That's why i said 10 years.

Now regarding the high level corruption i mentioned earlier that the LPB is today being thrust more as a watchdog kind of organization with powers and funding. So it's demanding accountability in a way only. Constitute it with the most upright left socialists and it will be just that only. It won't really bring necessary reform to the system. That's why it may be necessary to bring in a set of people who suggest ways across ministries to reduce discretionary powers, easy rational taxation levels and reforms, focus on allotment procedures and ways to strengthen institutions. All this requires focus and understanding of the issue. Not blind calls to revolution and Jihad.

All this will also happen without the LPB too, but we have to wait till the per cap income goes up to around a middle level country, 4000 USD equivalent. The fastest way is obviously grow as fast as possible next 10 years. To suggest stop growth or do Indian springs is to perpetuate poverty and corruption.

[Pranav]

Its been an unfortunate development - India is the only country where higher judges are appointed only by their own tribe...The other important piece of legislation that is pending is the Judicial Accountability Bill, which addresses the issue (selection of judges is by a wider group, somewhat like Lokpal)...

Perhaps that's why Maino has not been able to pack the Supreme Court, like she does with other Constitutional posts. Otherwise how would a fellow like Kapadia have made it to CJI?

The major drawback of the Lokpal bill is that the people who select the Lokpal members will mostly owe their jobs to the ruling party.

[UBanerjee]

Any democracy has non-majority coteries and groups that heavily influence policy, statutory & agency law, and the political process in general. They're called lobbying groups.

They are a chronic part of the democratic process. Given this, why shouldn't a "minority" representing something as useful and politically sensible as the anti-corruption movement, have broad lobbying influence, representing the politically ignored needs of the growing middle class? In a democracy, people can and do have influence beyond their numbers alone, and in some sense, should. Why is this "dangerously subversive"?

Witness e.g. the civil rights movement in the US- it certainly didn't begin life as a majority. Was it "dangerously subversive"? In a way, it was, but usefully so. There should be subversive, populist checks on the corrupt and abusive powers that be.

[Raghavendra]

All this will also happen without the LPB too, but we have to wait till the per cap income goes up to around a middle level country, 4000 USD equivalent.

If we dont stop the loot NOW we will never be a middle income country

The fastest way is obviously grow as fast as possible next 10 years. To suggest stop growth or do Indian springs is to perpetuate poverty and corruption.

Corruption is stopping growth by sucking out capital from Indian market and siphoning it off to secret bank accounts of the corrupt

Corruption has to stop NOW or this dream of development will collapse

[Neela]

Somnath

There were a few posts on police reform. Would like to hear your views on that.Why is a independent police under the purview of the judiciary being equated to something as a militia?

The word "militia" was used by Amit, but I can understand where he might be coming from...It stems from your question itself, ie, "police under the purview of the judiciary"....Look at what you are suggesting, ie, that the police will report to the judiciary...Suddenly, you have the investigating executive being a "part" of the justice dispensing machinery...Ergo, the judiciary becomes, at least partly, part of the executive (mind you, police and law and order, are executive functions)...In the delicate balance of powers, suddnely the balance is turned upside down...

The instance of "police reforms" that I quoted does not look to reconstruct the police force "outside" the executive, it only looks to put in place systems "within" the executive to ensure that politicians dont interefere in day-to-day functioning...

If one looks at the narrative of some of the posters here, it would seem that everything is rotten, everyone is chor, the constitution is crap - ergo, the police should be "independent" of all this...In reality, what is required is for the police to get independence from the political executive not on matters of policy, but on matters of day-to-day functioning...Its a not-so-subtle nuance that needs to be understood..

To be sure, there are excepional cases sometimes where the police/CBI report progress directly to the courts, usually SC...But these are very very rare exceptions, and usually ones where the profile as well as vested interest of the state are optically highly correlated to those of the acused - some of the Gujarat riots cases, 2G are some examples...It cannot be a "rule", not in a Parliamentary democracy...

I think what you are talking about is a classic system. And you make it sound far more dramatic than it actually will be. I for one do not believe that things should be the same for India too just because it is like that elsewhere. The problem that we have is that the police is an extension of the executive and when the executive/legislative is corrupt , there is little the police can do. This is possibly the reason why you state that the police should gain independence for day-to-day functioning.
A joint panel comprising of judiciary and executive being the authority in control of the police could be a possible solution for us.

[harbans]

^ Indeed corruption does effect growth..no arguments there. But India is growing at 9%. Without corruption and scams maybe we'd grow 11%. I agree. I am only pointing to the correlation between GDP and corruption. India's GDP has grown 4 fold in the last 10 years..and if we in the next 10 years manage to grow 4 fold again, we have the momentum of high growth as of now..corruption will decrease. That's the correlation i wanted to point out. Studies here:

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stat ... lations/#1

http://www.adelinotorres.com/economia/O ... 0mundo.pdf

[Raghavendra]

^ Indeed corruption does effect growth..no arguments there. But India is growing at 9%. Without corruption and scams maybe we'd grow 11%. I agree. I am only pointing to the correlation between GDP and corruption. India's GDP has grown 4 fold in the last 10 years..and if we in the next 10 years manage to grow 4 fold again, we have the momentum of high growth as of now..corruption will decrease. That's the correlation i wanted to point out. Studies here:

Chor GDP ko dekh kar chori nahi karta, agar chor ko abhi nahi pakdoge toh wo aur baadi chorein karega

[harbans]

An article written by Tavleen Singh in IE dated Dec 10, excerpts:

It is a terrific way to divert attention from the real issue, which is that the reason why corruption has reached such unimaginable proportions in recent years is because the licence raj has not yet been fully dismantled.

Had it been, there would be no room for the vast discretionary powers that politicians and high officials continue to enjoy in our ‘liberalised’ economy. Had the Indian economy been truly liberalised, these discretionary powers would have been replaced by clear rules and regulations and there would have been real competition among big businessmen instead of the cronyism that remains at the core of the scams that currently hold our attention.

...

The most important thing that Niira Radia’s taped telephone conversations reveal is how much influence peddling is still possible and if this is possible, it must mean that the licence raj continues to exist.

.....

So if we are really interested in reducing corruption at high levels of government, what we must all demand, in loud voices, is a reduction in the discretionary powers that high officials enjoy. We need transparent and clear rules that would guarantee that nobody setting up an airline or a cell phone company can influence policy changes or reduce competition. This is what we should be talking about instead of twittering on and on about scams in this silly way.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/reduc ... er/723532/

[somnath]

A joint panel comprising of judiciary and executive being the authority in control of the police could be a possible solution for us

"Dual control" is typically a recipe for disaster, more so in administrative functions...Police has funcitons ranging from law and order, to investigations (of all crimes - corruption to murder to theft) to counter insurgency...It cannot be taking order from two different sources of "authority" all the time...Unity of command is an essential feature in any organisation...

More importantly, the courts adjudicate over matters involving the police...What will be the perceived "impartiality" of the court (not individual judges, but the institution itself!) when one litigant is an entity that reports to the court itsefl!

Perhaps that's why Maino has not been able to pack the Supreme Court, like she does with other Constitutional posts. Otherwise how would a fellow like Kapadia have made it to CJI?
The major drawback of the Lokpal bill is that the people who select the Lokpal members will mostly owe their jobs to the ruling party

How did KG Balakrishnan make it? Or YK Sabharwal? All public servants are appointed by the govt...If you want to get rid of INC, vote it out! And yes, go through the selection process of Lokpal - it is perhaps the most rigrous..