Indian Military Aviation

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jun 2011 07:21

"Generations" using the US definiton:

Gen 1 - first jets
Gen 2 - swept wing jets, early radars
Gen 3 - swept wing supersonic, refuelling capable, single mission (air defence/attack) supercruise not a defining feature even if present, agility goes out of fashion
Gen 4 - swept wing supersonic computer controlled and configured aircraft (FBW), multimode radar and therefore multi mission capable, limited composites, supercruise not a defining feature even if present, easy modular, maintenance, high uptime/reliability/availability for missions, early smart weapons, agility back in fashion
Gen 5: stealth (internal bays in fashion again), smart weapons, high composite use, highly efficient new gen engines, seamless secure networking, supercruise becomes part of job description, thrust vectoring

The newer MiG 29s, Su-30, Eurofighter, Rafale, Tejas and J-10 do not fall in exactly the same US sourced generation definitions.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Jun 2011 09:07

Rahul M wrote:FBW started with 4th, it's one of the defining characteristics.

What IAF chief meant with MiG-21 ++ was

He took Mig-21 as a base fighter which IAF has.

The MiG-21 + he may mean MiG - 29, which is another interceptor a/c with IAF.

MiG - 21 ++ is LCA.

There is no point for IAF chief to evaluate the aircraft as per gens given internationally. In IAF, they are more capability focussed. So, generation equals capabilities wrt IAF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jun 2011 17:08

India requests overhaul for 30 Mi-17 helicopters

India has issued a request for proposals for the overhaul of 30 Mil Mi-171V transport helicopters, with the work to be done outside India.

The work includes transporting the machines to an overseas location, where the main and tail rotors and storage batteries are to be replaced, according to the defence ministry's request. Other work will include replacing the aircraft's rubberised fuel tanks.

Other equipment that needs servcing includes winch assemblies, weapons and countermeasures systems.

The 30 Mi-171Vs have been operational for eight years and have recorded around 2,000 flying hours each. The Indian air force expects the overhaul of each helicopter to take 10 weeks.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Jun 2011 18:10

chackojoseph wrote:
Rahul M wrote:FBW started with 4th, it's one of the defining characteristics.
What IAF chief meant with MiG-21 ++ was

He took Mig-21 as a base fighter which IAF has.

The MiG-21 + he may mean MiG - 29, which is another interceptor a/c with IAF.

MiG - 21 ++ is LCA.

There is no point for IAF chief to evaluate the aircraft as per gens given internationally. In IAF, they are more capability focussed. So, generation equals capabilities wrt IAF.

yes boss but in another interview he also explicitly mentioned tejas to be 4th gen now and expected it to be 4.5 gen by FOC.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Jun 2011 19:46

Rahul M wrote:yes boss but in another interview he also explicitly mentioned tejas to be 4th gen now and expected it to be 4.5 gen by FOC.

You are right. His usage has been as per the situation. By saying MiG-21 ++ he did not say 2 ++ gen in a conventional way. You remember he was misquoted during LCA IOC? This is a lost in translation case.

He is very upbeat about LCA and so are many in IAF. If we discount the earlier bad blood, everyone is eagerly looking forward for its induction as the handling of LCA is very appreciated. If you remember, sometime in 2006, one of the official had said good things about handling and wanted it to translate into a battle machine.

By now, world over, the sellers are not willing to step into the area where LCA is positioned (Even Gripen tried hard to position it in MMRCA category). Euro's are willing to help in its development and its notching up good press.

Once upon a time , when LCA was not ready, we used to defend its generation on internet. Now, it's near ready and everyone can compare it to know what gen it is.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Jun 2011 22:36

Cockpit lesson from war veteran: Fly high, fly safe.

When 21-year-old Flying Officer Tejas Kawale visited Air Chief Marshal (retd) Hrushikesh Moolgavkar, 91, at his Koregaon Park residence on Monday morning, the contrasts could not have been starker. Seventy years separated the two fighter pilots, and while Tejas had flown only the Kiran Mark II trainer jet, the former air chief had flown 67 aircrafts in his long and distinguished career.
Kawale was presented the prestigious sword of honour at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal, Hyderabad, on June 18. He also bagged a total of seven prizes, including the president’s plaque for standing first in the overall order of merit.

Giving important tips about flying a supersonic jet, Moolgavkar told Tejas: “Remember the basic parameters of speeds that are prescribed in your pilot’s manual. Get all doubts about the aircraft you are flying cleared by seniors. It is always prudent to try out variations only after you have attained a height of 10,000 feet. The higher you fly, the safer you are in a supersonic jet.”

When pressed by Tejas to speak about his Mahavir Chakra winning effort in the Kashmir operations of 1948, Moolgavkar spoke about how he had unwittingly managed to touch the speed of sound when he took the Tempest II in a steep 20,000-feet dive. “I felt the entire aircraft shudder. Upon landing, I noticed that the wings of the aircraft were wrinkled. My discussions with senior pilots made me realise that I had almost touched the speed of sound,” he said.

However, the most important lesson that Moolgavkar shared with the young Tejas was the importance of not giving up in the face of adversity. The former air chief recalled how he had crashed a Spitfire aircraft during World War II in Burma. “After recovering from a vertebral fracture and reporting to duty, I was told that I could not fly fighter aircraft anymore. I protested and threatened to resign from the air force. I stuck to my guns and my seniors relented. If you believe something strongly, do not give up. Only then will you succeed,” Moolgavkar said.

The former air chief even gifted a copy of his biography, Leading from the Cockpit to the young pilot. Tejas told DNA: “I am overwhelmed by my interaction with Air Chief Marshal Moolgavkar. I have learnt a lot. I will internalise everything and his book will be my guiding light in the years to come.”

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 30 Jun 2011 22:39

Austin wrote:India requests overhaul for 30 Mi-17 helicopters

India has issued a request for proposals for the overhaul of 30 Mil Mi-171V transport helicopters, with the work to be done outside India.

The work includes transporting the machines to an overseas location, where the main and tail rotors and storage batteries are to be replaced, according to the defence ministry's request. Other work will include replacing the aircraft's rubberised fuel tanks.

Other equipment that needs servcing includes winch assemblies, weapons and countermeasures systems.

The 30 Mi-171Vs have been operational for eight years and have recorded around 2,000 flying hours each. The Indian air force expects the overhaul of each helicopter to take 10 weeks.

we dont have capability to do it by ourselves ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jul 2011 03:27

then how will the seller gets business? did we agree to tinkering when we bought them in the first place?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jul 2011 06:38

IAF working with Navy & Coast Guard to combat pirate menace

The Air Marshal also said the IAF would acquire Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (UCAVs) equipped with ground attack missiles.

The IAF currently uses two types of advanced pilotless remote controlled air craft for surveillance and reconnaissance. It is also reported to possess a UCAV designed to target enemy radars and ground-based air defence systems.

The IAF would base Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) with maritime surveillance capabilities along with two squadrons each of the Sukhoi-30 and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) at its upgraded air bases in Thanjavur and Sulur in Tamil Nadu.

The air force stations would also become the home base of one of the recently inducted Russian IL-76 platform-based Israeli Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACs) and an IL-78-based midair refuelling tanker.

The Air Marshall said these assets would help the IAF advance its strategic doctrine of exerting a stabilizing influence over the Indian Ocean from the straits of Malacca to the straits of Hormuz. China's growing influence in the region, particularly its access to harbours and ports, was a matter of concern.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Jul 2011 10:00

With the bases coming up in Tanjavur and Sulur, and IAF poised to induct advanced combat aircraft as well as SIGINT/ELINT/COMINT assets, it seems there is a definite strategy in place to dominate the IOR. And with A&N assets being incremented - infra and assets - in another 5years time, we will have pretty dominating position in the region. IMO, what we require is a some long-range and high power radars along with gap fillers for low-level detection pieces to create a complete AD umbrella/bubble. While the present threat perception might not warrant deployment of SAM units, the drill needs to clearly in place to move in assets as and when required.

In addition, over medium to long term, we should be in position to monitor all naval and air-activity+COMINT/SIGINT across the Malacca Strait. We need aircraft with long legs and still longer ranged Air-launched CM/SOW.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jul 2011 10:37

rohitvats wrote: IMO, what we require is a some long-range and high power radars along with gap fillers for low-level detection pieces to create a complete AD umbrella/bubble.

Rohit, The greenpine in Kolar near BLR and the one in Konark gives a huge coverage over the IOR. Our own swordfish (where ever it is deployed) would also give us HUGE coverage. India also operates a string of Pulse Doppler WEATHER radars along our seacoast and this would be integrated with our AD network (along with other civilian radars) . IMHO, we already have a MPR in Port Blair and based on recent news, we will be adding/upgrading Radars in all (IN/IAF) bases in ANC.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Jul 2011 10:49

I was wondering about the status of the the 40 ac requirement placed by our SFC.

Any update the govt approval of it or the type of the Ac they are likely to procure(maybe Su-30/34 or Tu22M).

Volunteer: I see that wikipedia is highly inconsistent in aircraft specifications. I would like to help in making it more consistent. I however need a more knowledgeable person to give my the right info for the updates. I would like to know if anyone has the time for that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Jul 2011 11:51

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote: IMO, what we require is a some long-range and high power radars along with gap fillers for low-level detection pieces to create a complete AD umbrella/bubble.
Rohit, The greenpine in Kolar near BLR and the one in Konark gives a huge coverage over the IOR. Our own swordfish (where ever it is deployed) would also give us HUGE coverage. India also operates a string of Pulse Doppler WEATHER radars along our seacoast and this would be integrated with our AD network (along with other civilian radars) . IMHO, we already have a MPR in Port Blair and based on recent news, we will be adding/upgrading Radars in all (IN/IAF) bases in ANC.

Many thanx for the information. I was not aware about these!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2011 12:00

the greenpines are likely to be for BMD development work and unlikely for surveillance. the weather radars tell nothing of air movement.

what we ideally need are a few truly long range 3D surveillance radars (greenpine++) and a few "OTH" radars to detect and track all ships going around in the indian ocean. I have no idea how OTH radars work but Aus claims to have tracked ships in north pacific using a Aus-UK system.

in due course BMD radars also to detect submerged launches from the ocean.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jul 2011 12:02

^^^ IIRC its around 600 KMS into horizon.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 01 Jul 2011 12:12

Gd for you in case you are interested:
http://www.dsto.defence.gov.au/attachme ... _radar.pdf

IIRC one of the issues identified was the OTH radar at times ran into problems in certain weather conditions. I think it was severe lightening conditions where it was causing issues on returning the signal cant find the link right now.

Having said that OTH radar would be nice + to have for us would give us good coverage over malacca as pointed out by several abduls.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jul 2011 12:31

Singha wrote:the greenpines are likely to be for BMD development work and unlikely for surveillance. the weather radars tell nothing of air movement.

A Greenpine deployed for BMD would definitely be able to track Aircrafts, correct?
Plain vanilla weather radar might not be able to monitor air movement, but the Newer Generation Pulse-Doppler Radar can definitely track Aerial threats. Desi IACCS (integrated air command and control system) takes feeds from all military, Airports, marine, weather radar sources (ACM Naik brieflly touched upon this).
I recently read an article that, some countries are developing tactics around Pulse Doppler Radars to detect Stealth aircrafts (by mapping the lack of feedback from a moving object)

varunalh · Post by **varunalh** » 01 Jul 2011 16:36

From the past two days a Dhruv has been making low level passes @ HAL Blore with a huge circular ring dangling below it. Has anyone else seen it. Does anyone know what it is?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jul 2011 18:21

varunalh wrote:From the past two days a Dhruv has been making low level passes @ HAL Blore with a huge circular ring dangling below it. Has anyone else seen it. Does anyone know what it is?

Saw the Dhruv but not the ring? maybe the LCH has accepted the ring and marriage proposal?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2011 20:13

what kind of ring - just a loop of wire or a more substantial concrete culvert type thing?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jul 2011 20:23

A Greenpine deployed for BMD would definitely be able to track Aircrafts, correct?

Reading between the lines, it seems to me, that India has quite a few (Indian built) variants of "Greenpine". One of them is a tweaked Greenpine for BMD. I would not be surprised to find a few other variants - in aerostats, etc.

Furthermore, India is no longer hard up for funds, it is the allocator of funds that have their heads in the sand.

Point being push comes to shove India will deploy what is needed and has the needed technologies to provide for.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Jul 2011 00:51

NRao wrote:Reading between the lines, it seems to me, that India has quite a few (Indian built) variants of "Greenpine". One of them is a tweaked Greenpine for BMD. I would not be surprised to find a few other variants - in aerostats, etc.

agree with you 1000%, multiple variants would have been developed and ready for deployment. Hopefully in the next 5 yr plan, these should get funded for deployment. I also think that BEL ityaadi PSUs are choked with orders and the pie needs to be spread to private Cos.... Just couple more players like SAMTEL springing up with rejuvenate the scene...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Jul 2011 04:03

X-post

More U.S. Airlifters for India; Helicopter Orders Imminent

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 02 Jul 2011 05:11

322 Air Warriors inducted into IAF

CHENNAI: More than 300 Air Warriors were on Friday inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) at a passing out parade held at the IAF station at suburban Tambaram.

Air Commodore Alok Kumar, Command Flying Training Officer, reviewed the parade held at the end of their training.

In his address on the occasion, Kumar said the career prospects in the IAF had 'substantially improved,' and urged the newly inducted professionals to strive for excellence.

He said the operational efficiency of the IAF 'hinged upon,' maintenance and administrative support.

This was vital as the IAF was "in the process of a technology based transformation and modernisation with the phased induction of high performance, state-of-the-art aircraft and high precision military hardware and automation," he added.

Earlier, the Air Warriors had gone through a 'rigorous intensive training' at the Mechanical Training Institute and Workshop Training Institute (WTI).

Besides the 322 personnel, 13 soldiers from the Air Forces of Nepal, Myanmar and Sri Lanka also earned the training course certification, a defence release here said.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 02 Jul 2011 08:20

India hopes to fly indigenous 90-seater aircraft in five years

India hopes to test fly its first indigenously-developed 90 seater regional transport aircraft in the next five years, a top official has said.

The 90-seater RTA will be developed as a team India initiative led by CSIR-National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), which could also see some global participation, CSIR Director General Samir Brahmachari said here today.

A committee headed by former ISRO chairman G Madhavan Nair submitted a feasibility study to Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) recently in this regard.

The Committee, which had top bureaucrats and aerospace scientists as members, has suggested a two-pronged approach -- Design Development and Production Unit -- to realise the objective.

"The Committee has come to a conclusion that the RTA should be a narrow body turbo fan aircraft with a seating capacity for 70-90 persons and stretchable to 80-100 persons," Brahmachari said.

The total project cost is estimated at Rs 7,700 crore -- Rs 4,500 for the design and development stage and Rs 3,200 for the production unit, he said.

The Nair Committee has also suggested that the government pick up the entire tab for the design and development state and has favoured a joint venture route for setting up the production facility.

The panel has set a target of six-eight years for completion of the development and production stage of the project.

"We hope to have the prototype ready in the next five years assuming that the project takes off in 2012," Brahmachari said.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Jul 2011 09:43

varunalh wrote:From the past two days a Dhruv has been making low level passes @ HAL Blore with a huge circular ring dangling below it. Has anyone else seen it. Does anyone know what it is?

Maybe it is proposing to LCH

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2011 12:23

some high quality pics of IAF AN32 in Ukraine @ bottom of this page
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 6&page=112

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jul 2011 16:37

Kersi D wrote:
Does any one know ALL the IAF names of aircraft.

Mirage 2000 - Vajra
Mig 29 - Baaz
Jaguar Shamsheer
IL 76 Gajraj
AN 32 Sutlej

Let us complete the list

K

HF-24 Marut
HJT 16 Kiran
MiG 27 Bahadur as Viv S said
Dassault Ouragan - Toofani
ALH Dhruv
Alouette II Cheetah
Alouette III Chetak
HPT 32 Deepak

AmitNangia · Post by **AmitNangia** » 02 Jul 2011 23:22

Mi 8 Pratap
Mi 17 Rana
MiG 23 Rakshak
MiG 25 Garud (IIRC)

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Jul 2011 00:53

Folland Gnat = Ajeet

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Jul 2011 01:26

Cain Sir,
I believe Ajeet was developed from the Folland Gnat and not its code name.. IIRC, no aircraft of that era except Ouragan, which was named Toofani, had such indic names..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 05:46

Yes the Ajeet was a development of the Folland Gnat with better avionics, two extra pylons and some extra fuel tanks.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Jul 2011 16:11

shiv wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
Does any one know ALL the IAF names of aircraft.

Mirage 2000 - Vajra
Mig 29 - Baaz
Jaguar Shamsheer
IL 76 Gajraj
AN 32 Sutlej

Let us complete the list

K
HF-24 Marut
HJT 16 Kiran
MiG 27 Bahadur as Viv S said
Dassault Ouragan - Toofani
ALH Dhruv
Alouette II Cheetah
Alouette III Chetak
HPT 32 Deepak

Shiv

Trust you to answer the question.

What about my all time favourite MiG 21 ? What is/was the name given to it ?

By the way were the older Vampires, Mysteres, Hunterss, Canberras etc. given any "Indian" name ? None that I am aware of.

What about Mi 4, Mi 8, Mi 17 etc.

I think these names should be included in some BR databank for anybody to refer later on ?

Kersi

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Jul 2011 16:16

X-post

BrahMos air variant to be tested before 2012 end: Pillai

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 04 Jul 2011 17:39

Kersi D wrote: .......What about my all time favourite MiG 21 ? What is/was the name given to it ?

Kersi

Mig 21 - Trishul?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jul 2011 18:29

AmitNangia wrote:Mi 8 Pratap
Mi 17 Rana
MiG 23 Rakshak
MiG 25 Garud (IIRC)

Excellent info. I did not know. Googal says Rand and Pratap are 8 and 17 (different order) and I am unable to confirm "Garud".

Will cross post in FAQ thread.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Jul 2011 18:54

Kersi D wrote: Shiv

Trust you to answer the question.

What about my all time favourite MiG 21 ? What is/was the name given to it ?

By the way were the older Vampires, Mysteres, Hunterss, Canberras etc. given any "Indian" name ? None that I am aware of.

What about Mi 4, Mi 8, Mi 17 etc.

I think these names should be included in some BR databank for anybody to refer later on ?

Kersi

I am no where near Shiv Sir in terms of expertise, but to the extent of my knowledge, the old lady MiG, MiG-21 was not given an indic name.
And of the Oldies, only the Oruagan had a nickname.. Mysteres and Hunters were called the same way.
The Mil Mi-17 is called Rana and i am forgetting what the Mi8 was called...
PS- Didn't notice Shiv Saar's post.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2011 19:04

Mi-17 should be "Rana".....127 Helicopter Unit of IAF is called as "First of Ranas" as it was te first one equipped with Mi-17 in 1985.

Check this excellent article on Mohanbari airbase in NE on BR itself:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Today ... -Wing.html

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 04 Jul 2011 21:31

MiG-21s had two names. The older M/MFs were "Trishul" and the Bis version was "Vikram"
MiG-25 was "Garuda" (But official confirmation would help)

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Jul 2011 21:46

maybe someone can compile a table of given name and reporting names?
also the same for PAF? e.g. bandar, badmash, etc.?