Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

[RajeshA]

Hi Rajeshji,
This post hits the nail on it's head. The Kashmir problem is a disguise for the Pashtoon problem. It's all about the Durand line and keeping the Pashtoons occupied and are used as cannon fodder. The Bogey of Islam is raised to unite them to do the bidding for Pakjabis. I wrote something similar around a year back in BRF.

Durand Line is the paranoia that drives pakistan to create the 'Indian/Hindu hatred'. They can never lt the Pashtoons unite. TTP alo faces the same problem. There are so many internal fissures or warring tribes that they can't be united for anything except islamic cause so the 'Munafiq' call for the Pakjabi Army.

Pakhtoonkhwa will create the basis of erasing the Durand line and solve Pakistan problem for India.

Regards

Chandrabhan

chandrabhan ji,

this narrative should go so mainstream, that whenever the Pakis do anything to India, be it firing along the LoC, or cross-border terrorism in Kashmir, or terrorist attacks in India, side by side with all other responses India can give, this narrative, that "Pakjabi Army is doing this to divert the attention from their Pushtun Problem", should gain center-stage.

At a moment of tensions between India and Pakistan, media attention on India and Pakistan becomes very high, in Pakistan, in India and in the West. West starts shouting "nuclear flash point", Pakistan starts shouting "Kashmir" and "Islam khatre men", and India should start shouting "Pakistani terrorism" AND "Pushtun problem"!

First the Pakistanis and the West would look a bit confused, why India is talking about "Pushtun Problem", and then they will have a better look at Indian narrative of the issues between India and Pakistan. Then they will start understanding it and latching on it, as a possible explanation.

Pakistan creates "mischief", and we say with rolling eyes, "is the Pushtun Problem again itching you". Pakistan says Kashmir. We say Pushtunistan.

Pakistan would in fact be dead-scared that India will again bring up the issue of how Pakjabis have been abusing Pushtunis, an issue they don't want to give any media attention to, and certainly not in connection with their "core" concern - Kashmir, that Pakistan would have to think twice before doing "mischief" or talking Kashmir, in apprehension of India's response.

We have to use the Kashmir issue, that Pakistan rakes up all the time, and make a connection between it and the Pushtun Problem of Pakistan, and put Pakistan on the defensive.

[JE Menon]

JEMullah, are you referring to this particular post or CF in general (I am not a scholar of her writings)? Because while I dont expect her not to argue from Unkil perspective, I dont see anything particularly that is NOT from our perspective too particularly the prescription about not surrendering territory in vague hopes of peace...

Boss, both really. What I'm saying is that CF cannot be expected to understand where we come from. She does not care. This is where we occasionally experience some bluenutz. But what she is demonstrating in this article, and every now and then in others is that she is increasingly beginning to understand the physical, psychological and social space where the Pakisatan and its minions are spawned.

[a_kumar]

From Muppala's post :

Kayani`s gamble

By R. Prasannan/Islamabad, Swat and PoK

Thought it was positive for India. (And didn't know Indian journos were operating in PoK!). Some of the things I note below may be known, but it seems we have fresh information that needs to be raised by Pakistani media.

It is a war, full scale, in Pakistan.

India and the world may scoff at Pakistan that it is fighting an army of Frankenstein’s monsters it had spawned in the eighties through an illicit liaison with the US. Such historical prudery has no relevance in General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani’s war room in the General Headquarters in Rawalpindi. It is war and he has to win it. Already he has cleared large swathes of territory from the enemy [see maps].

Makes it appear like a war journal of a awe-struck chronicler. But that adoration aside.. this information if handled well may unravel favourably!

He has left the Indian border thinly defended. Kayani has drawn entire divisions and brigades from the Indian border and sent them to fight militants in the west, leaving his 2,240-km Indian border thinly defended. In the process, he has put blind faith in three things—his less-than-100km range Hatf nuclear missiles to scare India’s three strike corps, a strategic insurance policy taken with the Chinese and the good sense of a 78-year-old man sitting in Delhi’s South Block.

The blind faith would only be in the Chinese factor (as shown by their reluctance to get into Gwadar inspite of relentless efforts by Pakistan). So, all that are left are 100km Hatf missles and India's leadership. Now, one can argue that former is in itself a sufficient condition while latter has been the norm whether it was INC or BJP at the helm (from Rajiv Gandhi to Vajpayee to MMS).

Now onto the corner in which PA is supposedly in.

The generals and brigadiers at GHQ say Kayani has been serious. Look at the order of battle (orbat). Traditionally seven of Pakistan’s nine corps were poised against India; the exceptions were the Peshawar (XI) Corps and the Quetta (XII) Corps. Now the entire Peshawar Corps, complete with 7 and 9 Divisions, is committed to operations; the Quetta Corps has lent two full brigades.

The big news for Indian commanders is the orbat in the eastern theatre. A few months ago, US RAND Corporation’s Seth Jones and Christine Fair had estimated that troops drawn from two division headquarters, eight infantry headquarters, 20 full battalions, eight engineer battalions, one special battalion, two signals battalions and 38 Frontier Corps wings have been pressed into battle at various stages in Operation Al Mizan in South Waziristan. In the subsequent Operation Zalzala, the entire 14 Division, drawn from the India-centric Multan (II) Corps, was put to battle. In Operation Sherdil in Bajaur, a brigade headquarters, four battalions and seven Frontier Corps wings were pressed into action under the command of a three-star general.

The entire 19 Division, attached to the Rawalpindi (X) Corps and earlier stationed in Mangla on the Indian frontier, is still fighting in Operation Rah-e-Rast in Swat. Operation Rah-e-Nijat in South Waziristan involved 7 Division and 9 Division from the Peshawar Corps, plus two Special Services Group battalions and two infantry brigades taken off from the Indian border. Some 30,000 troops were inducted into battle, along with several artillery regiments, against 10,000 die-hard Pak Taliban in this operation.

Now THE WEEK learns that Kayani has drawn more from the east, including from the two strike corps—Mangla (I) Corps and Multan (II) Corps. The strike corps are the sword-arms of Pakistan which would blitzkrieg into Indian Punjab and Rajasthan in the event of a war. The Mangla Corps has lent 17 Division and the Multan Corps 14 Division to the war in the west. The five defensive (pivot) corps, the shield arms that have to fend off Indian armoured thrusts, have lost more. The Rawalpindi Corps, charged with defending the entire capital region and reinforcing the Mangla strike corps, has been deprived of its prized 19 Division. It is left with just 12 Division (HQ Murree), 23 Division (Jhelum) minus a couple of brigades, Force Command Northern Areas (Gilgit), one infantry brigade, one armoured brigade and one artillery brigade.

The Gujranwala (XXX) Corps and the Bahawalpur (XXXI) Corps have lent one brigade each. In all, four full infantry divisions, 17 brigades (three in North Waziristan alone), 54 battalions, one Special Services Group battalion, one task force and 58 Frontier Corps wings are still battling the militants. The remaining line-up left in the east may appear utterly butterly to the knives of Indian generals.

In summary, several of India centric troops have been engaged in war in west, leaving the eastern border thinly defended. And still, India has not undertaken any aggressive moves or actions . Infact, India has been gradually lowering its troop presense in Kashmir. Or IOW, from Pakistani POV, Pakistan has successfully kept India at bay.

Going back a few steps...
(reason 1) If Pakistan was going to achieve that under the nuclear umbrella (100km Hatf for example) then why is there need for a giant army sucking up resources?

(reason 2) If Pakistan was going to achieve that by maintaining a huge army, then current events prove that as redundant!

Basically, this whole decade can be used as a reality check for Pakistanis.
- They are most vulnerable on Eastern Front like never before.
- But big bad chanakyan-baniya-India has not taken advantage of it, like they were taught it would
- So.. why the hell does the Army need to be so big (only to create the mess for Pakistanis internally)
- All Army has really done in past few decades is creating internal issues like the one in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa or Karachi or Baluchistan (it obviously gained nothing in Kashmir)

Pakistani sources would not comment on the formations. Yet, “we have committed 1,47,400 troops” into the war on terror, said Brigadier Syed Aznat Ali, a director at the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), Rawalpindi. Add to them the thousands who are manning, patrolling and doing sentry duties on the Durand Line. “One-third of our force is in the west,” said Major-General Athar Abbas, ISPR director-general.

Given a total active strength of 5,50,000, Abbas’s one-third would work out to more than 1,83,000 troops committed to the west-of-the-Indus theatre, compared with just about 1 lakh manning the precarious Line of Control in Kashmir against India. (Another 10,000 are on UN duties.) That leaves just about 3.5 lakh troops to defend Pakistan against an Indian Army that has three full armoured strike corps to thrust into West Punjab and Sind.

Again, if 3.5L troops (along with nuclear overhang) are sufficient to stop the big bad India, then that defeats the whole argument for larger army that costs 26% of the budget officially (double that unofficially).

But the average tenure of the Pak soldier in combat zone is now stretching to 26 months, whereas a German soldier, just across the Durand Line in Afghanistan and doing the same job, goes home and to his girlfriend after six months, and an American soldier after one year. This is affecting morale, as also training, since the drills for conventional war are entirely different from the drills for counter-insurgency war.

So 1/3 of the India-specific army is now a counter-insurgency force in the West. Assuming there never was a Taliban/good-bad actors issues (yeah.. I know!!, but stay with me for the sake of argument), then Pakistan should only need 2/3 of the army that it currently has for detering India. That can be presented as defence budget taking 18% instead of 26% .

“The price is very heavy,” said General Abbas. “We have lost 2,795 brave soldiers since 2001. Another 8,671 have been injured.”

And it would have avoided unnecessary attrition on its forces.

Kayani worries that such deep involvement of more than a third of his army is blunting his capability to fend off India.

His army traditionally had been trained to fight in the plains of Punjab and around the sand dunes of Sind, but Pervez Musharraf, following his 2004 accord with A.B. Vajpayee, changed all that. Against Musharraf’s promise not to allow Pak-held territory for anti-India terror, Vajpayee ‘allowed’ him to move three (some say four) divisions from the Indian frontier. He called a corps commanders’ conference immediately after the 2004 ‘accord’ and declared that his army was no longer India-centric.

Most importantly, the promise not to allow Pak-held territory for anti-India terror (IOW, moving away from low-intensity conflict) bought more peace than actually causing anti-India terror.

Kayani wants to reverse this, but finds he cannot. “While the Pakistan army is alert to and fighting the threat posed by militancy, it remains an ‘India-centric’ institution and that reality will not change in any significant way until the Kashmir issue and water disputes are resolved,” he declared early last year.
“The media interpreted it as a political statement,” said a brigadier. “He meant that it should be trained and equipped to deter India, as it always has been.” The problem is that Kayani cannot deter India, with more than a third of his army committed to fight militancy.

Yeah.. Kiyani wants to reverse this, but what do the so called "now suffering and outraged" Pakistanis want. Is there something India can put spotlight on?

On one hand the author provides datapoints that prove PA, even after being thinly stretched, successfully detered India. And goes on to suggest Kiyani cannot deter India. This needs to be pointed out.

Initially he tried quick-fixes—kill’em quick and get back to the Indian frontier. Soon after he took over, Kayani sent 9,000 troops, gunships and fighter planes to Bajaur which killed a thousand militants in one month. “If they lose here, they’d have lost everything,” said General Tariq Khan, who commanded the Frontier Corps deployed in Bajaur then. F-16 supersonics bombed South Waziristan even before ground troop movement commenced. The successes were short-lived; the enemy simply shifted base. “Bajaur had to be retaken thrice,” said a brigade commander. “It will take another two or three years to have a reasonable level of order in the [frontier] region,” added Brig. Ali.

The extended engagement in west (against his will) gives us (and media) a chance to point out the fallacy of Kiyani's and PA's views.

Will Manmohan and General V.K. Singh wait? Or, would they put their enigmatic Cold Start doctrine to test? Cold Start is a doctrine evolved by the Indian Army after it found it was too slow in mobilising in Operation Parakram, ordered following the attack on Parliament.

Any discussion on Cold-start has to be prefaced with above. It was neccesitated by the attack on Parliament. If there are no attacks on India, then there is no need to worry about cold-start!

Pakistan army’s old doctrine of ‘Riposte’ presumed that any large-scale Indian thrust could be countered by unleashing firepower and manoeuvrings to counter-attack into Indian territory. However, India’s reliance on Cold Start has made Kayani realise that he would not have the latitude for manoeuvre. Kapoor’s and a few other statements last year also rattled Kayani. Pak generals say Kayani’s ‘India-centric’ statement was in response to Kapoor’s. That is why he is now doing some Hatf-rattling.
............
Kayani, however, is not resting on the Indian denials and assurances. Especially after India announced it was going ahead with the month-long Exercise Vijayee Bhava (Be Victorious) which ended mid-May, involving the strike corps in Ambala and the Delhi-based Western Air Command.
............
Kayani, too, is learnt to be sharpening his doctrine, and tightening its nuts and bolts. His strategic doctrine had allowed use of nuclear weapon against a conventional strike by India, but as a last resort. This was officially spelt out by the then strategic plans division chief Lt-Gen Khalid Kidwai three years ago. He said nuclear weapons would be “weapons of last resort, and could be used against India in the event of space losses, severe force destruction or economic losses.”
...........
Kayani is also lowering the nuclear threshold or the ‘nuclear overhang’. In fact, a few months ago, President Zardari had openly talked of a no-first-use policy for Pakistan. Kayani bitterly opposed this, as was revealed by WikiLeaks recently, and the then US ambassador to Pakistan, Anne Patterson, wrote: “Although he has remained silent on the subject, Kayani does not support Zardari’s statement... that Pakistan would adopt a ‘no first use’ policy on nuclear weapons.... We believe that the military is proceeding with an expansion of both its growing strategic weapons and missile programs.”
...........
So Kayani is testing and re-testing his short-range Hatf-9 missiles, essentially to warn India that the nuclear option can be exercised not at the last moment or as a last resort, but when Indian tank columns have entered less than 100km. To India, “this means we will have to strike, with conventional force, at Pakistan’s Hatf missile bases first, and destroy them, simultaneously or even before our strike corps move in,” said a general officer involved in Vijayee Bhava. No wonder, India insisted on discussing nuclear confidence-building measures at the meeting between the two foreign secretaries last week.
........
For the Indian military, it means something else—that a two-front war is still in the realm of the possible.

All the above makes a stronger case for smaller Pakistani Army!!!!

[Y I Patel]

The biggest importance of Prof. Fair's article is that it serves the dictum "Know Thy Enemy". LeT is a known entity in India for almost two decades, yet our homegrown understanding and articulation of this threat has been at a superficial level - we, of course, found out early enough who the founders were and how they were (fianancially) supported. From bitter experience, we found out how LeT operates. And the terrorists, dead and alive, told us where they came from. Yet, we have never connected the dots to come up with a holistic and fine-grained portrait of the most potent terrorist institution we are threatened by. Because Prof. Fair finally gives us that understanding, we should be in her debt.

The picture Prof. Fair paints is of Pakistan's finest creation. Each country has a genius, and Pakistan's is for creating terrorist organizations. The learning experience began right at birth, and in creating LeT, Pakistan got all the elements right.

First, and foremost, LeT has a clarity of doctrine that would make any institution proud - and the doctrine itself is finely honed to be an organic extension of the vision of Pakistani establishment. LeT, as Prof. Fair explains so lucidly, is created with the purpose of fighting the number one threat to Islam in Pakistan. Pakistan itself was created, in the words of it's founders, to provide refuge for and to empower the Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent. Therefore, the very act of Pakistan's creation defines the number one threat to Pakistan and its foundational relegion - a secular, non-believing India. Equally important, the LeT doctrine also gives the Pakistani establishment wide latitude in how Islam is supported and how it interprets and responds to threats to Islam - any inherent hypocricy in siding with non-belivers in killing sons of Islam is considered a lesser and even necessary evil to the larger purpose of fighting the external and existential threat. No wonder, then, that while lesser creations such as Taliban as well as other jehadi organizations have turned against Pakistan, while LeT remains in disciplined lockstep with its creators.

Secondly, the article highlights the resons why LeT is so effective in execution and in maintaining organizational discipline. The recruits come from the heartland of modern Pakistan, and are unencumbered by conflicting loyalties to tribe or ethnicity. They do not put Kashmiriyat before Islam, nor do they chase after a Greater Pakhtunistan. They are relegious soldiers who fight for and with the approval of their mothers and motherland, which ironically is a trait they share with another subcontinental instution associated with a different hue of green. They are also chosen from a much more educated and skilled pool, and are trained to the standard of special forces. Prof. Fair talks in passing about their training, which for the chosen few can last for six months. While more details are not available, it is useful to put this in context that Special Forces troops in the Indian Army also have a "probation" or initial training period of six months. Equally important in this context, only a few of those that have had this high level of training are finally chosen for missions in India or elsewhere. The operatives that India faces, then, are not mindless drones programmed to explode, but highly commited and indoctrinated special forces operatives. Looked at this way, the semantics of them not being suicide bombers but operatives that volunteer for high risk missions takes on subtle but significant importance.

But the most important insight gleaned from Prof. Fairs painstaking research may be the reason why such an organization geared to take on external threats has not yet carried out a single attack at America or American interests in Pakistan. Put simply, America is not and has never been the foremost threat to Pakistan. If Pakistan is forced to make transactional compromises with America to serve the larger purpose of diminishing India, then cooperation with America and tolerating American presence become a necessary evil. A disciplined and indoctrinated force like LeT can be relied on to not strike out against US in blind anger. And this probably is part of Prof. Fairs motivation in understanding LeT. America, as a superpower, has a number of choices in how it addresses potential threats, including the option of coopting the threat or buying it off. If America can continue to chart a course in Afghanistan and Pakistan where its motives and goals are seen as being malleable to Pakistan's larger objectives, then LeT can be free to focus on operations in India, and if need be, on Afghanistan. However, if the interests of US and Pakistan clash to an extent that US becomes more a threat and less a gullible mark, LeT will find its strategic priorities being reoriented.

From an Indian point of view, then, Prof. Fair's work should be an object lesson in how to go about confronting the threat posed by LeT and its brother organizations. The Indian response has been to increase armed capability to shield its citizens from the next blow, but none of these capabilities, including those that would target LeT's higher leadership, will have any effect in diminishing the potency of this particular threat. Indian security forces can, at best, uproot weeds they see and keep at it as the next set of weeds pops up. A more lasting solution is a lot more complicated and beyond my ability to prescribe, but the general idea would be to make India to be NOT seen as the primary or existential threat to Pakistan or Pakistani Islam. This does not mean acceeding to Pakistani demands in Kashmir, but may be a more cynical approach which softens India's image in Pakistan to a point where some other threat is seen to be more predominant. Before the Second World War, Britain and France on one side and Soviet Union on the other vied with each other to make Facist Germany the greater enemy of the other side. If India cannot make itself a lesser enemy of Pakistan, it could strive to make someone else a bigger enemy.

[VinodTK]

'Pak has 14,000 Kashmiris in reserve for war against India'

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is staying the course of using terrorist groups to protect its interests, a militant commander has divulged, contradicting Islamabad's avowals to the contrary and hopeful testimonials from Washington and New Delhi about Pakistan changing its policy and behavior.

The unnamed militant said Pakistani generals have not given up the policy of nurturing terrorists. "That system was still functioning," he told the New York Times referring to the Pakistan military's training and protection of terrorists in an interview published on Monday.

"The government is not interested in eliminating them permanently," he said. "The Pakistani military establishment has become habituated to using proxies... There are two bodies running these affairs: mullahs and retired generals. These people have a very big role still."

He also revealed that Pakistan has 12,000 to 14,000 fully trained Kashmiri fighters, scattered throughout various camps in Pakistan, and is "holding them in reserve to use if needed in a war against India".

He said ISI continues to support even terrorist groups that have turned against the government because the military still wants to keep them as tools for use against India. For instance, Pakistan could easily kill a militant leader like Hakimullah Mehsud but it chose not, he said, adding illustratively that he could do the job for Rs 20,000.

"The account belies years of assurances by Pakistan to American officials... that it has ceased supporting militant groups in its territory," the paper said, pointing that US has given Pakistan more than $20 billion in aid over the past decade for its help with counter-terrorism operations. The militant's account comes as an embarrassment to some officials in Islamabad, Washington, and New Delhi who are ginning up a narrative of Pakistan giving up its policy of using terrorist groups for its so-called strategic depth despite there being no evidence to back this. Over the weekend, India's foreign secretary Nirupama Rao, who is now the ambassador-designate to the US, told a TV channel that there is a change in Pakistan's attitude to tackling terrorism, and described it as a "concrete development".

But the militant's insights show no such change in the Pakistani establishment, unless one chooses to see the Pakistani military and government as different entities (they both claim to speak in one voice).

[Prem]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/ ... F020110704
Hundreds of Afghan-based militants launch raid into Pakistan

Reuters) - At least 300 militants crossed into Pakistan from Afghanistan and attacked a Pakistani checkpost, government and intelligence officials said on Monday, the sixth cross-border attack in a month that has raised tensions between the neighbors.
One Pakistani soldier was killed and another wounded in the late Sunday attack in the Pakistani tribal region of Bajaur, intelligence officials said. At least four militants were also killed in the fighting, they said.Pakistan says 56 members of the security forces have been killed and 81 wounded in a series of militant attacks from Afghanistan over the past month.

[A_Gupta]

Finally got to Unfair's paper. Some quibbles:

(1) As per CCFair, 26/11 was the first time LeT targeted non-Indian civilians.
What about Willie Brigitte?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6454373.stm

Willie Brigitte, from the Caribbean island of Guadeloupe, was sentenced to nine years in jail by a Paris court.

He was arrested in Australia in 2003 and deported to France to stand trial on a charge of "criminal conspiracy in relation with a terrorist enterprise".

Brigitte, 38, was accused in court of plotting to blow up Australia's only nuclear research power station...

France's top anti-terrorist judge, Jean-Louis Bruguiere, accused Brigitte of setting up a terror cell in Australia in alliance with the Pakistani Islamic militant group, Lashkar-e-Toiba. .

(2)

The goal of LeT commandos therefore is not merely to commit suicide attacks; rather, they seek to kill as many as possible until they ultimately succumb to death in combat, barring their ability to survive enemy engagement

In common parlance, this is still called a suicide mission. Yes, it differs from putting on a suicide vest and blowing oneself up.

(3)

Arguably, a further argument in favor of LeT‘s ongoing ties to Pakistan‘s intelligence agency is the simple fact that while several LeT cells and operatives have been based in the United States (e.g., David Coleman Headley), the organization has never conspired to attack the U.S. homeland.

This is then an assertion that no foiled attack on the US homeland (of which there are plenty) had any LeT involvement. Why then does the US consider the LeT increasingly to be a threat? e.g.,

Indeed, U.S. legislation such as the ̳ ̳Pakistan Enduring Assistance and Cooperation Enhancement (PEACE) Act of 2009‘‘ (generally known as Kerry-Lugar-Berman) specifically focuses upon LeT by name.

(4)

Understanding this anti-munafaqin violence perpetrated by these Deobandi groups is critical to understanding the domestic utility of LeT....{examination of LeT writings} The author continues to elaborate that even ―grave worshipers‖ (Barelvis or Sufis) or ―those who are hostile to the companions of the prophet‖ (Shia) still accept the Koran and must not be attacked.66 This section does two important things. First, it concedes but defends LeT‘s contacts with the Pakistan government and it undermines the Deobandi arguments for attacking Pakistanis on the basis that they are munafiqin. {How does it do this?}

...Moreover, the author proceeds further to dismantle the claim these persons are even munafaqin in the first place. Instead, the author argues that these people are in fact kafir.....While this may seem like an odd argument, kafir are less problematic to the Deobandis than are munafaqin because, as the author contends, even though they are kafir, they are not at war with the Muslims in Pakistan. If kafirs are not at war, they cannot be attacked.

Isn't the Deobandi position that Ahmadis are kafir, not munafaqin? (Don't the various debates use the term "takfiri"?)

And then, if the LeT argument has any force, Deobandis should not attack Ahmadis, right?

Let's recap: CCFair argues that LeT declares various Pakistani groups as "peaceful Kafirs" and that is supposed to be a meaningful argument for the Deobandis not to attack them - sufficiently meaningful that makes sense to the Pak. Army and so it backs the LeT to propagate this formula.

All I can say is Really?

[SSridhar]

That Ms. Fair article is a mixture of good and bad. As JEM said before, we should exploit the 'good' portions to our advantage and remember the 'bad' portions so that we can understand Ms. Fair in the future. Even if she comes to the conclusion about LeT for wrong reasons, it still serves the purpose because an upcoming American analyst has said that the Pakistani issue is more deep rooted.

[SSridhar]

. . . you were not serious were you when you say solving Cashmere without quotes. I would say "solving Cashmere" because you know TSP's version of "solution" is a hand over of the valley on a silver platter, not some reasonable solution, as if there needs to be one but for their perfidy in stoking trouble and terror.

CRS, I wish you had known me better than that, with or without quotes. I was trying to interpret Ms. Fair's position, not stating my opinion on Kashmir.

[Y I Patel]

The LeT (or is it Ahle Hadith) doctrine is that being a heretic or a hypocrite is not in itself a sufficient condition to attack someone. This is a fundamental difference from Deobandi doctrine. The striking counter-example to LeT are the Deobandi indoctrinated Talbaan, who would put the priority on preserving Islamic purity and would therefore treat munafaqin as a greater threat.

Again, the stress of Ahle Hadith doctrine is on placing a higher priority on fighting external threats. In an ideal world, if all external threats have been dealt with, then it would be the turn of the Munafaqin to face LeT's ire. (Added later) Alternatively, a Munafaq would become a threat if he were to directly attack LeT or its ideological interests. So, theoretically, a Sunni group attacking LeT on sectarian grounds or Ahmadiyas demanding independence from Pakistan would cause LeT to take up arms against them.

Talk about dovetailing beautifully with the Pakistani worldview.

[Y I Patel]

On a general note, we should give a lot less attention and importance to what American analysts say or advocate in news media. J&K is a part of India. It was not given by anyone to India, and no one has the power to take it away or even to make an Indian government give any major concession inimical to Indian interests. They could not do it even during the weakest days of the nascent republic, and there is no way they are going to be able to do it now.

Ironically, Americans recognise this and their writing is begining to reflect that reality is sinking in. It is only us who get distracted by TV interviews and miss the substance of what is being said.

[Rangudu]

YIP,

Excellent set of posts! To me, a useful, albeit simplistic way to understand the LeT is that it is a non-uniformed PA corps, with a more Islamized version of the post-Zia TSPA ethos i.e. a mixture of Islamic pride, anti-India nationalism and militarism. To it, just like its TSPA partners, a restoration of the TSPA "swagger" vis-a-vis India takes precedence over any other jihad.

[ranjbe]

YIP,

Excellent set of posts! To me, a useful, albeit simplistic way to understand the LeT is that it is a non-uniformed PA corps, with a more Islamized version of the post-Zia TSPA ethos i.e. a mixture of Islamic pride, anti-India nationalism and militarism. To it, just like its TSPA partners, a restoration of the TSPA "swagger" vis-a-vis India takes precedence over any other jihad.

To get a good feel for the TSPA army/LeT/a section of RAPE swagger (besides e-books and gyan from the old-timers such as Shiv/Shridhar), is to spend some time looking at an archetype Paki with this viewpoint, namely the Managing Director/Owner of Nawa-i-Waqt Group of Newspapers Majid Nizami, which includes the Nutty Nation. Some quotes from his biography:

Majid Nizami firmly believes that without Kashmir, Pakistan is incomplete. As the Quaid said: “Kashmir is indeed the Jugular Vein of Pakistan” Majid Nizami has fought tirelessly at the front of the struggle to gain Kashmiris their right of self-determination as promised by the proclamations of the UN, and to make the territory a recognized part of Pakistan. The Nawa-i-Waqt’s Kashmiri relief fund provides much needed monetary support to Kashmiri families. Funds are also provided to cover expenses pertaining to the marriage of young ladies in Kashmir. Owing to the illegal occupation of Kashmir, he remains a fierce and open opponent of friendly relations with India, unless and until the issue is resolved according the UN Resolution on Kashmir. Having visited nearly every country on the world map (most of Europe, including Eastern Europe and Russia during his years in London), Majid Nizami refuses to visit India, even when invited by various Pakistani delegations to accompany them. He cites Bangladesh as being a direct creation of India and believes that India never accepted partition and is relentlessly conspiring to undo Pakistan and undermine its strength.

The TSP elite love him and shower him with awards.

Majid Nizami’s services to the country have been continually lauded and appreciated through the years. The Pakistan Human Rights Society awarded Mr Majid Nizami the Human Rights Awards with great pride. On January 9, 2005, in a gathering of eminent personalities, Mr Majid Nizami collected the award in person. In light of his dedication to the protection of human rights in Kashmir and his search for a democratic solution to the Kashmir issue, Majid Nizami has very rightly been named a Mujahid-i-Kashmir. He has numerous times been elected the president of the APNS and CPNE, professional bodies of publishers and editors, which are the guardian institutions of the print media of Pakistan. His services to the country have been recognised by various governments. He has received the Sitara-i-Pakistan, Sitara-i-Imtiaz and the single greatest honour that can be awarded, the Nishan-i-Imtiaz. General Zia-ul-Haq recommended him as a nominee to the Shura (Parliament), Prime Minister Junejo suggested the Governorship of the Punjab to him and Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif with his father offered him the Presidency of the country. All of which he respectfully declined, saying that the title of the editor of Nawa-i-Waqt is what best grants him the opportunity and privilege of serving his country.

Enjoy the full biography below!

http://nation.com.pk/majid-nizami.html

[CRamS]

From 9/11 to Mumbai by Stephen Tankel was posted here a while back.

[Suppiah]

Isn't the Deobandi position that Ahmadis are kafir, not munafaqin? (Don't the various debates use the term "takfiri"?)

And then, if the LeT argument has any force, Deobandis should not attack Ahmadis, right?

Let's recap: CCFair argues that LeT declares various Pakistani groups as "peaceful Kafirs" and that is supposed to be a meaningful argument for the Deobandis not to attack them - sufficiently meaningful that makes sense to the Pak. Army and so it backs the LeT to propagate this formula.

All I can say is Really?

CF explains LET's "logic" weird though it may be for humans, quite clearly.

In LET's view, (corrected later) deviant sects are kufr - but then they are living under the sword of ROP in a country/territory controlled by ROP are entitled to 'protection' provided they dont bear arms and pay jizya. This standard has been followed in the ROP world, including Turkey under Ottomans.

In fact this is EXACTLY the interpretation used by Romila Thapar (amongst others) to sell us the idea that ROP/Mughal rule is pure and has never harrassed kufrs and it is all hogwash to claim otherwise..

So by 'promoting' the Ahmediya/Shia/Sufi as kufr, LET is giving them life.

India is not same as TSP resident kufr in that sense because it is a country/territory not controlled by ROP ie the green flag is not flying in Red Fort. So every kufr there is bull-cattle. And war should be waged until they are subdued/converted. (This is pure ROP unadulterated with PC adulterated interpretations dished out to dhimmies for taqiya purposes.)

That is what (according to CFs reading of LET) makes LET pigs different. The Deobandis, on the contrary are pure pures, they wage war on internal impurity first. Hence they are a danger to TSP state.

[Suppiah]

The LeT (or is it Ahle Hadith) doctrine is that being a heretic or a hypocrite is not in itself a sufficient condition to attack someone.

provided they live within ROP control and dont bear arms..

[CRamS]

On a general note, we should give a lot less attention and importance to what American analysts say or advocate in news media. J&K is a part of India. It was not given by anyone to India, and no one has the power to take it away or even to make an Indian government give any major concession inimical to Indian interests. They could not do it even during the weakest days of the nascent republic, and there is no way they are going to be able to do it now.

Ironically, Americans recognise this and their writing is begining to reflect that reality is sinking in. It is only us who get distracted by TV interviews and miss the substance of what is being said.

This is what everyone says but I challenge this deeply held view. Is the terrorist Mush MMS "deal" that was struck and seems to have broad appeal among strategic elite in India, even GP seems to have endorsed that on one of Arnab's shows, not a give away by India? The most odious part of that "deal" being India TSP joint love making in the valley. And a "deal" like this one can easily be sold to the Indian public, assuming they matter at all when it comes to dealing with TSP.

[shiv]

From 9/11 to Mumbai by Stephen Tankel was posted here a while back.

There are significant differences between what your bimbo says versus what this joker concludes. Remove the sexual innuendo and you find that the woman is far more clued in than Tankel

Some reprehensible trash from the above document (which has some useful info, I must admit)

Most of the author’s interlocutors believe the umbilical
cord between LeT and the Pakistani security services is
pretty tenuous, but that it is likely still closer to the ISI than
to al-Qaeda.

No hard evidence has yet linked the ISI or the Army to the
Mumbai attacks, though that could change as further details
emerge.

[arun]

Interview with a Paki terrorist in todays NYT, where he admits TSP army support for terrorist groups. This article is interesting not because it reveals anything that BRF did not know decades ago, but by its timing. You would not have seen such an article prior to the OBL killing. Looks like Unkil now has the knives out, and TSP H&D is no longer an issue.

The Pakistani military continues to nurture a broad range of militant groups as part of a three-decade strategy of using proxies against its neighbors and American forces in Afghanistan, but now some of the fighters it trained are questioning that strategy, a prominent former militant commander says

Militant groups, like Lashkar-e-Taiba, Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen and Hizbul Mujahedeen, are run by religious leaders, with the Pakistani military providing training, strategic planning and protection. That system was still functioning, he said.

The former commander’s account belies years of assurances by Pakistan to American officials since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks that it has ceased supporting militant groups in its territory. The United States has given Pakistan more than $20 billion in aid over the past decade for its help with counterterrorism operations. Still, the former commander said, Pakistan’s military and intelligence establishment has not abandoned its policy of supporting the militant groups as tools in Pakistan’s dispute with India over the border territory of Kashmir and in Afghanistan to drive out American and NATO forces.

“There are two bodies running these affairs: mullahs and retired generals,” he said. He named a number of former military officials involved in the program, including former chiefs of the intelligence service and other former generals. “These people have a very big role still,” he said.

Maj. Gen. Zaheer ul-Islam Abbasi, a former intelligence officer who was convicted of attempting a coup against the government of Benazir Bhutto in 1995 and who is now dead, was one of the most active supporters of the militant groups in the years after Sept. 11, the former commander said.

Pakistan has 12,000 to 14,000 fully trained Kashmiri fighters, scattered throughout various camps in Pakistan, and is holding them in reserve to use if needed in a war against India, he said.

Yet Pakistan has been losing the fight for Kashmir, and most Kashmiris now want independence and not to be part of Pakistan or India, he said. Since Sept. 11, Pakistan has redirected much of its attention away from Kashmir to Afghanistan, and many Kashmiri fighters are not interested in that fight and have taken up India’s offer of an amnesty to go home.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Only natural that an organisation such as the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan that sports the very steeped in Islam motto of “Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah” or translated from Urdu, “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Way of Allah”, will take its motto seriously and succumb to the charms of Jihadi Islamic Terrorism:

[arun]

X Posted from the Pakistan Economic Stress Watch thread.

The Energy crisis in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan bites:

Load-shedding protests: 3 killed, 28 injured in Mianwali

[CRamS]

Sorry if posted earlier, but jihadi Lodhi is running scared that US will take on the mighty Al Queda without TSP's help, and that too strike at TSP with drones. Note, nowhere in her rant does she even talk about LeT.

Its amusing that RAPEs like her who are part of the TSPA establishment that use terror as an instrument of state policy against India talk of international law. She ought to know better that thugs don't deserve protection under the law

The increasing even exclusive US reliance on this approach is predicated on the low cost, so-called ‘precision’ capabilities of drone warfare that involve no risk of US lives. Cast aside are legal questions raised by this war-by-assassination approach. Philip Alston, the UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial Executions, highlighted these last year in a report. This criticised the secrecy of the CIA-run drone campaign and its lack of accountability under international law.

[pgbhat]

^

The writer is special adviser to the Jang Group/Geo and a former envoy to the US and the UK.

New gig?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan’s Spies Tied to Slaying of a Journalist

New classified intelligence obtained before the May 29 disappearance of the journalist, Saleem Shahzad, 40, from the capital, Islamabad, and after the discovery of his mortally wounded body, showed that senior officials of the spy agency, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, directed the attack on him in an effort to silence criticism, two senior administration officials said.

The intelligence, which several administration officials said they believed was reliable and conclusive, showed that the actions of the ISI, as it is known, were “barbaric and unacceptable,” one of the officials said. They would not disclose further details about the intelligence.

Particularly embarrassing for the military, Mr. Shahzad described negotiations before the raid between the navy and a Qaeda representative, Abdul Samad Mansoor. The navy refused to release the detainees, Mr. Shahzad wrote. The Pakistani military maintains that it does not negotiate with militants.

It was possible that Mr. Shahzad had become too cavalier, said Ayesha Siddiqa, a Pakistani columnist and author.

“The rules of the game are not completely well defined,” she said. “Sometimes friendly elements cross an imaginary threshold and it is felt they must be taught a lesson.”

The efforts by the ISI to constrain the Pakistani news media have, to a degree, worked in recent days. The virulent criticism after Mr. Shahzad’s death has tempered a bit.

A Pakistani reporter, Waqar Kiani, who works for the British newspaper The Guardian, was beaten in the capital after Mr. Shahzad’s death with wooden batons and a rubber whip, by men who said: “You want to be a hero. We’ll make you a hero,” the newspaper reported. Mr. Kiani had just published an account of his abduction two years earlier at the hands of intelligence agents.

[shiv]

Yet Pakistan has been losing the fight for Kashmir, and most Kashmiris now want independence and not to be part of Pakistan or India,

This is one of the ways in which Pakistan has used "nomenclature confusion" to muddy the issue.

Pakistanis are said to be "losing the fight for Kashmir" because "most of the people want independence". The fact is that this refers to PoK and not Indian J&K . Guess what will happen to you in Pakistan if you criticize the Prophet say you would prefer to join India rather than stay in Pakistan? No PoK person would dare say that. So they say "independence"

[A_Gupta]

The LeT (or is it Ahle Hadith) doctrine is that being a heretic or a hypocrite is not in itself a sufficient condition to attack someone. This is a fundamental difference from Deobandi doctrine. The striking counter-example to LeT are the Deobandi indoctrinated Talbaan, who would put the priority on preserving Islamic purity and would therefore treat munafaqin as a greater threat.

No dispute with with what LeT preaches. Only dispute its utility in the context of Pakistan.

LeT is the only organization that is actively challenging the Deobandi orthodoxy that has imperiled the domestic security of the state.

No, the Shia, Ahmadis, Barelvis also challenge the Deobandi orthodoxy. Moreover, the Shia&Barelvis would not be militant if the Deobandis were not.

LeT is the only militant organization that enunciates the legitimate targets of jihad and the utility of external jihad to the state in a way that the common Pakistani can understand.

Disagree. It is easier to understand "wage jihad against all kafirs" instead of "some kafirs are protected, and others are not".

Again, the stress of Ahle Hadith doctrine is on placing a higher priority on fighting external threats.

Dunno about that also. The big debate among the Arab Ahle Hadithis after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan was about whether to wage the "near jihad" or the "far jihad", right? Wiki tells us about Abdullah Azam:

This put him at odds with another influential faction of the Afghan Arabs the Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) and its leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri. The next group of "unbelievers" the EIJ wanted to jihad against were not Israeli Jews, European Christians or Indian Hindus, but self-professed Muslims of the Egyptian government and other secular Muslim governments. For the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, takfir against the allegedly impious Egyptian government was central,[16] but Azzam opposed takfir of Muslims – including takfir of Muslim governments – which he believed spread fitna and disunity within the Muslim community.

So Azzam opposed takfir (dunno if he supported the munafiqan stuff). He was assassinated.

His opponents Al-Zawahiri, OBL, etc., remained around. Partnered with LeT.

LeT also supports takfiri.

Deobandis, as per CCFair, attack others charging them to be hypocrites; in reality, all the stuff posted on BRF has the Deobandis attacking others as kafirs (takfiri).

As per CCFair, LeT believes in a class of protected kafirs. The Pakistani state however, has not protected the Christians and Hindus within Pakistan who should be protected kafirs; nor has the Pakistani state been gentle with the Shia whom should be protected kafirs (we have plenty of info about state-sponsored massacres of them) but LeT+Pakistani state supposedly get along precisely because LeT states them to be protected kafirs.

This is no more coherent than any other theory of why Pakistan supports militants. Only the conclusion is pleasing, and so the reasoning is accepted.

[A_Gupta]

In LET's view, (corrected later) deviant sects are kufr - but then they are living under the sword of ROP in a country/territory controlled by ROP are entitled to 'protection' provided they dont bear arms and pay jizya. This standard has been followed in the ROP world, including Turkey under Ottomans.

Yes, but the TSP state does not itself follow this w.r.t. Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus, Christians resident in TSP, and yet it supposedly allies itself with the LeT because the LeT propagates the view stated above???????

[jrjrao]

Feel this should be posted in the TSP thread, instead of the J&K thread.

For those who have long followed Dr. Shabir Choudhry's writings on J&K, and even for those who have not, this is an interesting read:

Kashmir is not liberated and Pakistan is in a mess
Date: 4 Jul 2011

Link

This article begins thus:

After publication of my article, ‘Pakistani nukes and the UN’ I got a lot of emails; and as usual some in praise and some very critical. (One Paki) Muhammad Javed Iqbal wrote:

‘Dr Shabir Choudhry is His Master's Voice as he is a paid employee of Indian government. It is the same callous and ruthless government which is using rape as a weapon of repression in the largely Muslim territory. State terrorism is widespread in Indian occupied Kashmir. But being a true b_st_rd he does not have guts to speak up against atrocities of Indian regime and only barks at Pakistan at the behest of his Indian Masters....
...
...

[abhishek_sharma]

On Why Lashkar-e-Tayba is so Important for the Pakistani Army

[jrjrao]

No heartburn. This post and the two Paki links below are for the July 4th amusement onlee:

Smt. Nirupama's mea culpa this weekend, that India should never have stopped kissing the Pakis, and that stopping such kissing was wrong even for a moment, a moment when Major Unnikrishnan and 165 others lay warm and supremely sacrificed, has predictably caused Paki hard-on's in two editorial newsrooms:

Rao gives certificate to Pakistan

and

Seconded...


Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, 31, was killed while engaging terrorists on Friday morning at the Taj hotel

[A_Gupta]

An oldie (Oct 10, 2000)

Lahore Journal; A Jihad Leader Finds the U.S. Perplexingly Fickle
By BARRY BEARAK
Published: October 10, 2000

LAHORE, Pakistan, Oct. 2— The professor uses henna to redden his long beard, and that, along with a natural smile, makes him appear somewhat jovial, an unexpected cheerfulness from someone who commands what many believe to be a group of terrorists.

Killing, of course, is a pious man's obligation, ''to destroy the forces of evil and disbelief,'' explained the professor, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed. His rapidly growing organization, Lashkar-e-Taiba (the Army of the Pure), is duty-bound to ''bring death to oppressors.''

With that in mind, he sends hundreds of Pakistanis to fight in the jihad against India in Kashmir, he said. First the young men are taught to recite the Koran and to reflect on the virtues of a reverent Muslim society. Then, as with almost any other army, they are taught how to fire automatic weapons, set off explosives and slit throats.

But these days the killing by Lashkar is too often confused with killing by others, the professor said testily. He is distressed by ''Indian propaganda'' that falsely accuses the Army of the Pure of slaying the purely innocent, as in the massacre of 35 Sikh villagers in March on the day President Clinton arrived in India for a visit.

And this concerns him: the State Department is considering Lashkar for Washington's roster of the world's most wicked, the blacklist of ''foreign terrorist organizations.''

''This would be a grave injustice,'' said Mr. Saeed. ''We do not kill civilians, only aggressors. We don't believe it right to kill even a non-Muslim unless he is an aggressor.''

The interview was conducted in one of Lashkar's many offices in the historic city of Lahore. Cookies and dried fruit were brought in on silver platters. The politeness was exemplary, though in serving an American guest, the graciousness did not extend to removing a wall poster that showed the American flag in flames, along with the Indian flag.

''Destroy the nonbelievers,'' the placard read.

The professor's anxiety about the opinions of the State Department was a bit puzzling. Why does he care? The punitive effect of being on the blacklist would be minimal, he admitted. Lashkar has little need for American visas. It has no assets to freeze in American banks.

Mostly, he said, he is offended by the simple gall of it. ''Who is America to judge us?'' he said. ''We don't trust America, and we certainly do not see it as a champion of justice.''

He has fired off a letter of protest.

Mr. Saeed is 53, retired now as a professor of Islamic studies at an engineering college. In the 1980's he went off to fight in the jihad that chased Soviet invaders out of neighboring Afghanistan.

''America supported us with guns,'' he said. ''If we were not terrorists then, why are we terrorists now? How can Americans stand for such double standards?''

To him, the 53-year-old custody battle for the Himalayan territory of Kashmir is an open-and-shut case, with Pakistan in the right. He likens the Indian ''occupation'' of the disputed territory to the imperialism of the Soviets.

Not only does he want Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan, but he also wants Pakistan to become a part of a global Islamic state. ''Muslims throughout the world are one country,'' he said.

Mr. Saeed's vexation with America is hardly uncommon in this nation of 150 million. Uncle Sam is perceived to favor India, the emerging regional superpower and a potential market with one billion consumers. Pakistan, on the other hand, is near financial collapse.

In addition to jihad, men like Mr. Saeed provide schools to the masses, places where the poor can send their children to be both educated and fed. Those are services that Pakistan's relentless tag team of military and civilian governments has been unable to provide.

Mr. Saeed sits atop more than the Army of the Pure. In 1989 he began the Markaz Ad-daawah Wal Irshad, the Center for Preaching. It has more than 130 schools and a modern-looking university that rises out of the wheat fields near Lahore.

Lashkar is now a political force within Pakistan, just as it is a guerrilla army in Kashmir. The money behind the group, the professor said, comes entirely from private donors. He denied widely held suspicions that Lashkar is on the payroll of Pakistan's government, whose intelligence agencies have been a willing sponsor of the 11-year-old Kashmir jihad.

''People who send their sons to fight in jihad also give money for that purpose,'' the professor said vaguely, uncomfortable with the subject. ''Do not ask me about numbers.''

Mr. Saeed had selected the group's media center for the meeting. Only a single guard was stationed out front, a machine gun in his hand, an ammunition belt across his shoulder. Inside, young men were hunched over computer keyboards, writing for Lashkar's various magazines. An escort enforced a ban on photographing people. The professor said the capture of human images is forbidden by Islam.

Lashkar has proven itself a clever self-promoter. Its posters are bright and arresting. Its magazines are enticing, with articles like ''Koran and Astronomy'' and ''Prophet's Medicine: Olive Is the Cure for 70 Diseases.'' The last page in the international edition of Voice of Islam is a recruitment pitch for jihad: ''Learn how to use swords, spears, daggers and how to attack disbeliever forces, how to set up an ambush and lay siege to the camps and cantonments of the enemy, how to protect yourself and other oppressed Muslims during crackdowns and blackouts. Learn all these things through the Koran.''

The professor made a gift of a bound volume of back issues of the magazine. He was tiring of all this talk about terrorism, though his interest slightly revived when the subject turned to Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. He said those apocalyptic bombs were good to have, but only as a means to deter an enemy.

''To use such weapons in jihad would be un-Islamic,'' he said, pointing his finger. ''To use them: that is terrorism. And what is the only country to use them?''

The answer left him with a triumphant smile.

''America,'' he said. ''So who is the terrorist?''

Photos: A poster of burning American and Indian flags, left, includes an admonition to ''destroy the nonbelievers.'' Above, another poster shows missiles and suggests that the map of the subcontinent be changed to include ''more Pakistans.'' (Photographs by Barry Bearak/The New York Times) Map of Pakistan and India highlighting Kashmir: Lashkar-e-Taiba, or the Army of the Pure, has offices in Lahore.

[A_Gupta]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/16/world ... tants.html

NY Times, December 16, 2001

Lashkar-e-Taiba, or Army of the Pure, is led by a former university professor, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, who has continued to give fiery public speeches denouncing the American-led coalition's war in Afghanistan and warning President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan not to ''sell out'' Kashmir the way he sold out the Taliban.

[Suppiah]

In LET's view, (corrected later) deviant sects are kufr - but then they are living under the sword of ROP in a country/territory controlled by ROP are entitled to 'protection' provided they dont bear arms and pay jizya. This standard has been followed in the ROP world, including Turkey under Ottomans.

Yes, but the TSP state does not itself follow this w.r.t. Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus, Christians resident in TSP, and yet it supposedly allies itself with the LeT because the LeT propagates the view stated above???????

Well, the lahori logic or at least the impression Pakbaric army wants to give out is that while it is perfectly ok with jehadi terrorism directed against kufrs in India (and in US thru' stealth, not openly because that would send them back to 5th century stone age in a jiffy), it NOT ok to go after Shia/Ahmedi/Sufi kufrs within TSP and thereby 'weaken' the 'real' fight against 'real SDRE kufrs'

That's why TSPA/ISI/Paki establishment, including civilian ones (notice CF makes no distinction, unlike WKKs and pro-TSP apologists in India including new members like Nirupama Rao, that is a significant thing) support LET and 'love' them..

But then the real issue, which CF did not cover (perhaps that is the next stop in the journey of discovery), is that once you step on the slippery slope and rely on mullas to spread their lahori logic, you have no control on what they spread. Regardless of how 'pure' you are, there is always someone purer. Grass is 'greener' on the other side..barbaric animalism is not a graphic equaliser with dials you turn to control. It has its own momentum, life and course.

[Suppiah]

Mr. Saeed is 53, retired now as a professor of Islamic studies at an engineering college.

Islamic studies in engineering college? Researching role of djinns in hydraulics?

[pgbhat]

^ You do need experts in Djinn Fizzyks.

[Suppiah]

A sensible article...but being a Paki, he had to insert this line...the usual gimmedollah line..

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... t=7/5/2011

Of course all Nato countries particularly the USA will have to extend the required financial and material support to Pakistan, if they are sincere ally of Pakistan in the war against terrorism

Of course, gimmedollah because that is your duty..

and he gets it entirely wrong about what TSP was created for...

If the Taliban are allowed to survive and increase their hold in Pakistan, it would amount to negation of Pakistan and negation of Quaid-e-Azam’s dreams, vision, philosophy and commitments as well as the objects and purposes for which Pakistan was created.

...it is the exact opposite buddy...TSP was created for pure green utopia..just as the Taliban wants..

[Suppiah]

ISI killed Shahzad...Unkil knows for sure now..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/world ... istan.html

[RajeshA]

Regarding L-e-T:

It was an outfit established by the TSPA to hit India. It is the non-uniformed arm of TSPA and fully under its control. Furthermore it was set-up not only to receive its ideology from the Wahhabi school, but mainly to tap into Al Qaeda's pool of Jihadi fighters - An anti-Indian TSPA outfit with an Al-Qaeda blessing and support. TSPA could not give it an Islamic blessing, it would not have been credible. For it is based on this Islamic blessing, that it would collect its recruits.

However since it relied on Al Qaeda's ideological blessing, it had to play along with Al Qaeda's global agenda as well.

Since however American War in Afghanistan has become the main Jihad, LeT too is being forced to commit more of its soldiers to Afghanistan, for otherwise it would lose all credibility and also the blessing of Al Qaeda Wahhabis.

However LeT's primary agenda remains what it has been given by the TSPA - vicious anti-Indianism.

Sipaha-e-Sahiba and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi are Deobandi organizations, which have allowed themselves to be used in the age old conflict with the Shi'a, and hence are used by the Saudis in their proxy war with Iran, which makes their ideological identification more on the lines of Wahhabandi.

[svinayak]

Regarding L-e-T:

It was an outfit established by the TSPA to hit India. It is the non-uniformed arm of TSPA and fully under its control. Furthermore it was set-up not only to receive its ideology from the Wahhabi school, but mainly to tap into Al Qaeda's pool of Jihadi fighters - An anti-Indian TSPA outfit with an Al-Qaeda blessing and support.

Also LeT has been supported by US in the 80s and was trained by US military during the Afghan Jihad

[CRamS]

ISI killed Shahzad...Unkil knows for sure now..

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/world ... istan.html

What is interesting about this is the level of intelligence US has about TSP. I wonder how much they know about Mumbai but won't go public with it.

[chetak]

chetak ji,

Indians have to take control over this narrative.

We are always being told that for Pakistan, Kashmir is the core issue. That is humbug. J&K lies in India, is administered by India, so why the khujali in Pakistan's musharaff.

Pakistan's core issue is Pushtun question. Pakistan's insecurities come from Pushtunistan. Pakjabis have had a history, where the Pushtuns have often lorded over them. Pakjab has often been invaded from the Northwest. This makes Pakjabis' worries understandable viz-a-viz Pushtuns.

All that the Pakjabis are doing is waging war on the Afghans because of such past considerations, and because it is always like this, it is difficult to explain war on other Muslim people, Pakjabis have come up with the explanation that their enemy is India, and that they are involved in Afghanistan to fight India in some proxy wars there, all a load of crap.

Pakistan's whole enmity against India is based on a lie. They shout at us but kill in the Northwest. All of it is used to as a cover to kill Pushtuns. They say, they need Afghanistan as strategic depth against India. It is the other way round, they need India as strategic depth against the Pushtun.

Without an enmity with India, the Pakjabis would be hard put to explain their militarized society, which they use to suppress the Pushtuns. With whichever power in Afghanistan, the Pakjabis have fought, they have always used the Pushtun as cannon fodder, and sacrificed Pushtun lives to line their own pockets. With America's Global War on Terror, Pakjabis were very happy. Pakjabis could still keep a mask, and bring instability and mayhem to the doorstep of the Pushtuns.

Pakistan is so pissed off with American. Because by smoking out OBL from his cave in Abbotabad, the Americans have pulled away the mask which the Pakjabis were wearing - that they are not responsible for American war on Afghans.

For one thing the message is only half correct. It is true that the various Pushtun tribes under the name TTP have attacked Pakistani establishment, but the world understands that as Islamists trying to take over the place. And the Pakjabis probably just giggle, that our collective hate of Islamism, has made us blind to reality, that it is just a local tussle of power between the Pakjabis and the Pushtuns for control. The Pushtuns use Islam, because their society has been so radicalized, that just demanding Pushtun rights would be considered an affront to the brotherhood of Muslims, and Pushtun fighters would not be sufficiently motivated. Using Islam motivates the Pushtuns to take a punch at the Pakjabis.

We Indians too buy that the Pakistanis are so ideologically indoctrinated that they are blinded by hate, and cannot see that we mean them no harm. That is all true, but not the real cause for Pakistan's behavior. Their reasons for alleged enmity with India is a strategic imperative. So Pakistan will use both Enmity with India and Islamism to keep the Pushtun locked up.

This makes the job of Pakistanis a lot more difficult to convince their own Pushtun that India is their common enemy. Without the glue of a common enemy, the Pushtuns may simply go their own way and demand a separate Pushtunistan.........If we want the Pakjabis to get off India's back, we need to get Pushtunistan independent.

Just some thoughts

Hi Rajeshji,
This post hits the nail on it's head. The Kashmir problem is a disguise for the Pashtoon problem. It's all about the Durand line and keeping the Pashtoons occupied and are used as cannon fodder. The Bogey of Islam is raised to unite them to do the bidding for Pakjabis. I wrote something similar around a year back in BRF.

Durand Line is the paranoia that drives pakistan to create the 'Indian/Hindu hatred'. They can never lt the Pashtoons unite. TTP alo faces the same problem. There are so many internal fissures or warring tribes that they can't be united for anything except islamic cause so the 'Munafiq' call for the Pakjabi Army.

Pakhtoonkhwa will create the basis of erasing the Durand line and solve Pakistan problem for India.

Regards

Chandrabhan

This is what I have been thinking for the longest time. The durand line is the lynch pin. A little fire here will take away a very major part of the paki army from kashmir as their doomsday scenario will set in.

Look at the sheer panic our consulates have already created within the paki army and the ISI.

We should intelligently raise the Durand line at the UN in support of the very legitimate Afghan claims of their national integrity. Political and diplomatic support as the pakis are fond of saying!!!

In the seeds of pashtun reunion lies the bitter sweet of pakistan's destruction.

muslim vs muslim! No one else can be blamed.

The very brittle facade of the ummah and ROP will dissolve.

This is their worst nightmare.

The amerkhans may well partition afghanistan before they leave. Now that the Russian bogey no longer exists in it's older expansionist avatar, the new great game may well begin with iran, oil, central asian republics and of course china.

[Sri]

The latest news of PML N and MQM getting together to form a 'Grand Alliance' is very interesting. In general this is a result of the elections held in PoK.

There are reports of large scale vote rigging and fictitious voter's list. General feeling was that for the first time the gujjar vote in POK got consolidated (much like gujjar vote bank in J&K). This has forced many current incumbents out of business. What is also interesting is the decision of PNL N to participate in these elections for the first time.

Politically PPP has gone a back foot after disastrous May 2011. This so called election victory was crucial for it's survival. This is exactly Nawaz and Altaf bhai didn't want to happen. Hence MQM walked out of govt soon after POK election results and Nawaz called foul.

It is going to be interesting few months ahead politically in Pakistan. Those of you who have predicted a martial takeover, may not be very wrong. Political climate is definitely moving towards a huge ruckus.

Army is anyways not very happy with the conduct of Zardari / Gilani team in the way OBL, Mehran, Salim Shehzad and Karachi killing case was handled. The defense of armed forces was at best minimal. GIlani did make a speech in Parliament but that too after GHQ pleading for it and the fact that Gen Kiyani had himself requested a defense of armed forces in Parliament was made public by PPP leaders, it became clear that on who's side PPP is on. Another significant event that should not be overlooked was the haphazard way Govt of Pakistan appointed 2 judicial commissions. Immediately after Abottabad and Salim Shehzad incedent, many PPP leaders and sitting ministers came out actually demanding commissions from there own Government. But the Govt response was lack luster, unplanned and Bizarre (some of the people on the commission were not even informed of the same), this gave an impression that it was the Army which was stopping the commissions that were to be formed.

Many media reports in Pakistan say that GHQ is very upset with the barrage of criticism.

All these things will come together soon. Imran Khan now is considered as the new darling of the Army. Hence political meeting of minds of PML N and MQM is very significant.