Serial Blasts in Mumbai

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Jul 2011 06:34

tejas wrote:I feel compelled to talk about the 800 lb. gorilla in the room no one else seems to want to acknowledge. What if Pakistan has nothing to do with this blast? There are 150 million muslims in India. Let us say 99% are peace loving ( a higher number than anywhere else on earth I will grant you). That leaves 1.5 million that are not peaceful. Is it reasonable to assume that they have not/will not engage in activities their co-religionists have engaged in the world over?

As long as the 99% do not tolerate the 1%, turn a blind eye to their activities, etc.,, we should be OK.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 15 Jul 2011 06:35

shiv wrote:
I can see around me scores, if not hundreds of people who are making that change. But as I see it the change cannot come from "above" - it cannot come from a leader except occasional inspiration from a Gandhi or a much folowed personality like Anna Hazare. It has to spread "laterally" on the ground from person to person. We are a people who blindly accept what elected people say. We elect them and then we say "You are a leader, you must know. I don't know"

There are other ways and people are doing other things. This is just the route that I am taking. This is all OT - but the system in India needs deep cleansing with Ponds deep cleansing cream. Mumbai IMO has become a shit-pit with areas of the worst possible political-criminal-private citizen connections. Criminals are protected because everyone is a criminal in his own way. Duping the system is considered a sign of intelligence by Indians.

And we all say "Of corruption is so rampant we can't do anything" . We can - but most of us do not have the motivation even to act against one corrupt official whom you are associated with. Just one.

Sorry. OT.

Mr. Shiv. You keep saying things that compel me to post. I couldnt agree more.

But you see, Mr. Shiv, you are not in denial. You admit that the problem is with you (meaning really all of us), not with others, and even our bad leaders are really a result of our own sins. By us I mean the general public, and I presume, you mean the same. Let me point it out to all the Yahoos here that neither you nor me mean by general public, each and every individual. I am sure exceptions are there, I know of some, and I am sure most people know a few. But these exceptions are very few, far too few to be counted. Makes them quite super human, but they are so few that their collective super human efforts are just not enough to counter the evil that lives inside the rest of us.

But how many of us are really not in denial like you are not, Sir ? If enough of us come out of this denial, I think the problem will be resolved in pretty short order. Then we will quickly take our rightful place as a super power in this world. But guess what ? I am not holding my breath. The hardest thing to do, any good shrink will tell you is, to come out of denial.

Have you read Plato ? The Republic ? Do you know about the allegory of the cave ? If yes, you will know exactly what I am talking about. If no, please read that portion of the Republic, titled "The allegory of the cave" and then you would know what I mean.

A couple of links to a short explanation of "the allegory of the cave".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

http://www.objectivistfilmbulletin.com/platoscave.html

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 06:41

tejas wrote: That leaves 1.5 million that are not peaceful. Is it reasonable to assume that they have not/will not engage in activities their co-religionists have engaged in the world over?

With deep respect Tejas, may I point out an 8000 pound Gorilla. This 1.5 million traitorous Indian Muslims whom you have diligently exposed in your post have to find some means of doingtheir job.

India has 1 billion non Muslims. Assume 200 million are Indic patriots who cannot be bought. That leaves 800 million. Assume only 0.1 % are corrupt (less than the 1% figure for Muslims). That leave 8 million non Muslims who are corrupt enough to be enticed by US aid dollars being paid by ISI.

The easy bit is to say "Oh 1.5 million Muslims are somehow involved. We all agree and I pull out my knife to finishe them off. But what does anyone do about the 8 million non Muslims. If you even have 1 million corrupt non Muslims - you need only one Dawood Ibrahim to kill thousands.

Mind you I am not trying to absolve Islam or Muslims. Why 1%? That is a psec figure - maybe 10% are traitors. Make that 15 million But the system in India is geared up to recognise people by caste and religion. It is not geared up to identify criminal behavior.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 15 Jul 2011 06:53

sanjeevpunj wrote:"I cannot find words to condemn the barbaric acts of terror that resulted in the senseless killing and injuring of innocent people in Mumbai yesterday," said our beloved Prime Minister,Dr Man Mohan Singh said in a recent statement.
Read more at http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/pms-s ... bai-119332
and at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/govt- ... -119377&cp

If Dr Man Mohan Singh spends just half an hour on BR Forums, he will surely find all the words he needs!

I am so glad he did not comment that the incident was 'unfortunate but necessary.'

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 07:02

nataraja wrote:
But you see, Mr. Shiv, you are not in denial.

Denial occurs when you are faced with information that differs so much from what you already believe that you cannot accept that information.

I believe that Hindus are basically good people who have been wronged by history. I think Islam is a basically evil faith that encourages violence and that all Muslims have a fundamental violent streak because of this.

I have heard that Abdul Latif planted a bomb in a bus stand. I have also heard that Latif got a drivers licence that he used as an identity document by paying a bribe at the Lucknow RTO to one Shri Ramchand. That allowed him to live in India for 2 years as a local resident Using that document he got a gas connection, SIM cards and a passport application form

Ramchand cannot be blamed because the entire system is corrupt. Everyone in the RTO is corrupt. Why blame Ramchand and make him a scapegoat?

But Abdul Latif needs to be hanged. The entire system of Islam is violent. Latif needs to be hanged while Ramchand is only a small cog in a larger corrupt system. He should not be held responsible for the system's faults. You should not say that Ramchand represents the system. Latif, on the other hand, is not a small cog in a larger violent system. He represents the system and needs to be hanged.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 15 Jul 2011 07:09

Hats off to Julio Rubero who said that terrorism in Punjab was defeated because the community came on the side of the govt. and passed information on those involved in terrorism to security forces.

Likewise he mentioned that minority community in Bombay has to act out responsibly. He specifically mentioned that this is not possible without local support because where will these terrorist live, make plans, hide their arms and then go into hiding after the attack.

Rajdeep put that point to Javed Akhtar, who admits that there is little doubt that this has been carried by some fanatical muslim group. See the video.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/167587/wil ... error.html

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Jul 2011 07:14

Why Mumbai Was Attacked
The latest terror strike, which killed 17 people on Wednesday, shows India is a powerless easy target against Pakistan’s military intelligence agency, says Brahma Chellaney. Plus, photos from the scene.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... rless.html

India’s economic rise has intersected with Pakistan’s descent into chaos. Each terror strike on Mumbai raises fresh international concerns about security in India and prompts a sizable number of foreign tourists to abandon or delay travel plans.Undercutting India’s strength by repeatedly targeting its economic capital is a geopolitical objective that only a state sponsor of terrorism can seek to pursue, not street gangs, underworld figures, or local fundamentalists. And that sponsor—which made the mistake of leaving its marks on the three-day Mumbai terrorist siege in November 2008 that killed 166 people—is the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan’s notorious military intelligence agency.
Today, the now-familiar Indian cycle of empty rhetoric is repeating itself—ritual condemnation of the latest bombings and a worn-out promise to defeat terror. Yet the bombers have driven home a clear message: India, despite its rising international stature, is powerless to stop terror attacks. The bombings also have the potential to further undercut the flagging credibility of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Singh is the latest in a succession of weak, aging prime ministers whose absence of decisive leadership over the past 22 years has resulted in India’s failure to formulate a prudent counterterror strategy backed by firm resolve.
The fundamental mistake Singh’s government has made is to separate its Pakistan policy and counterterrorism strategy and put them on separate tracks. The two are simply not separable

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 15 Jul 2011 07:24

shiv wrote:... It has to spread "laterally" on the ground from person to person. We are a people who blindly accept what elected people say. We elect them and then we say "You are a leader, you must know. I don't know"

When (as just one example) the road outside your house gets a layer of tarmac that is only 3 cm thick making it drivable for 3 months you should be able to recognize it, smell a rat and realize that norms (and the original contract) call for laying a 10 cm layer. The local government official and the contractor for making the road are skimming your money. You can nail them by merely asking for the details of the original contract requirement and the actual work done via RTI. Tens of thousands of such requests from citizens to nail corruption at low levels have the dual effect of making the corrupt cautions while providing a tool in the hands of people who will understand that they can expose what is being done rather than blindly assuming that nothing can be done.
...
And we all say "Of corruption is so rampant we can't do anything" . We can - but most of us do not have the motivation even to act against one corrupt official whom you are associated with. Just one.
...

Very correct!! It is the information/knowledge/wisdom which is missing. And that means refurbishing the scholastic education system to make subjects like history (not the p-sec kind we have today), political science, sociology and governance (theory and practise) compulsory. That will give the new generation the multiplication tables for making a sense of the wider world.
Most of us do not have motivation to act because most of us lack the information/knowledge to get riled up by putting two and two together.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 15 Jul 2011 07:29

+1

Yes, this is the missing factor. There is no self critical analysis regarding governmental ethos.

sumishi wrote:
shiv wrote:... It has to spread "laterally" on the ground from person to person. We are a people who blindly accept what elected people say. We elect them and then we say "You are a leader, you must know. I don't know"

When (as just one example) the road outside your house gets a layer of tarmac that is only 3 cm thick making it drivable for 3 months you should be able to recognize it, smell a rat and realize that norms (and the original contract) call for laying a 10 cm layer. The local government official and the contractor for making the road are skimming your money. You can nail them by merely asking for the details of the original contract requirement and the actual work done via RTI. Tens of thousands of such requests from citizens to nail corruption at low levels have the dual effect of making the corrupt cautions while providing a tool in the hands of people who will understand that they can expose what is being done rather than blindly assuming that nothing can be done.
...
And we all say "Of corruption is so rampant we can't do anything" . We can - but most of us do not have the motivation even to act against one corrupt official whom you are associated with. Just one.
...
Very correct!! It is the information/knowledge/wisdom which is missing. And that means refurbishing the scholastic education system to make subjects like history (not the p-sec kind we have today), political science, sociology and governance (theory and practise) compulsory. That will give the new generation the multiplication tables for making a sense of the wider world.
Most of us do not have motivation to act because most of us lack the information/knowledge to get riled up by putting two and two together.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 15 Jul 2011 07:30

shiv wrote:
nataraja wrote:
But you see, Mr. Shiv, you are not in denial.
Denial occurs when you are faced with information that differs so much from what you already believe that you cannot accept that information.

I believe that Hindus are basically good people who have been wronged by history. I think Islam is a basically evil faith that encourages violence and that all Muslims have a fundamental violent streak because of this.

I have heard that Abdul Latif planted a bomb in a bus stand. I have also heard that Latif got a drivers licence that he used as an identity document by paying a bribe at the Lucknow RTO to one Shri Ramchand. That allowed him to live in India for 2 years as a local resident Using that document he got a gas connection, SIM cards and a passport application form

Ramchand cannot be blamed because the entire system is corrupt. Everyone in the RTO is corrupt. Why blame Ramchand and make him a scapegoat?

But Abdul Latif needs to be hanged. The entire system of Islam is violent. Latif needs to be hanged while Ramchand is only a small cog in a larger corrupt system. He should not be held responsible for the system's faults. You should not say that Ramchand represents the system. Latif, on the other hand, is not a small cog in a larger violent system. He represents the system and needs to be hanged.

Neither Abdul Latif nor Ramchand needs to be hanged. OR.........before everyone starts going berserk here, let me correct it. Let me say that Ramchand for sure doesnt need to be hanged, merely publicly whipped on his naked buttocks. Abdul Latif needs to be hanged. But before Abdul LAtif is hanged, our LEADERSHIP should be hanged. Ramchand may be a half victim of the system, although, I do believe he can make a super human personal effort to buck the trend. But our leadership is not a victim. It is their job to correct the system. Ramchand may need a job to feed their family, but none of our politicians NEED to be in politics to feed their family. It is their choice. Not only is it their choice, they promise the people that they will fix the system and then people vote them into power. People might be culpable too, because they knowingly or unknowingly vote for the crooks. But no one forces the politicians to be in politics. If they dont fix things, they should be hanged. They should be hanged first. Then Abdul LAtif.

If you cant hang our leadership, Sir, Mr. Shiv........dont hang Kasab. Why ? Kasab wouldnt have been possible, if it werent for our leadership. And I am not being partisan here at all. Hang them all. I mean think about it, Sir, Shiv. Most Indians prefer a foreigner to an Indian to be our leader. It is a reflection on our people, sure. But isnt it also a reflection on our own Nationalistic leaders ? Shouldnt our Nationalist leaders drown themselves in shame, when they cant even win an election against a corrupt, stupid, lousy foreigner ?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 15 Jul 2011 07:31

shiv wrote: When (as just one example) the road outside your house gets a layer of tarmac that is only 3 cm thick making it drivable for 3 months you should be able to recognize it, smell a rat and realize that norms (and the original contract) call for laying a 10 cm layer. The local government official and the contractor for making the road are skimming your money. You can nail them by merely asking for the details of the original contract requirement and the actual work done via RTI. Tens of thousands of such requests from citizens to nail corruption at low levels have the dual effect of making the corrupt cautions while providing a tool in the hands of people who will understand that they can expose what is being done rather than blindly assuming that nothing can be done.

There are other ways and people are doing other things. This is just the route that I am taking.

.

The route you have chosen is a commendable one but I think you will agree that such type of civic acts are a long shot to serious reform. It is grass roots governance, where the Indian system fails the most.

The person responsible for that contract today is a commissioner from the IAS appointed by the state government, with no direct accountability to the people of your city. An executive committee of your city councillors may play a role in that contract. Your city council does not have a direct charter to manage raise its own revenue for the city, it is provisioned by the state. The state legislators see the city councillors as competition to their power base. It was only in 1992 that the Indian constitution even recognized a formal third tier of governances, but stopped from giving it a truly federal character.

The need here is to separate this executive from the legislature, devolve real powers to both at this level and make them accountable directly to the people.

Once you know, exactly who is responsible for this policy in your city, you as a citizen can then act on them. Sometimes, in smaller towns even the budget needs to be voted on by the people directly every year. It is is at this level that a direct referendum on issues would work best, including maybe some recall. Another model is one from China, where large cities have provincial status and post 1982 reforms there provide real local governance powers to the provinces. But , we are going OT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 07:36

Muppalla wrote:Attackers wanted to create havoc, kill people -Former R&AW chief C D Sahay decodes the Mumbai blasts in a conversation with Vicky Nanjappa

I am no one to question this man's statements but I have a minor quibble with the following statement

The underworld angle is being spoken about and the word out on Mumbai's streets is that members of Dawood Ibrahim's gang could have carried out these attacks. Sahay feels this is not a theory that can be bought at the moment.

The Mumbai underworld operates in a manner which is aimed at targeting particular individuals, he says. The only exception where the underworld was behind a terror strike was the March 12, 1993 Mumbai serial blasts. Even then, notes Sahay, they were acting on someone else's behalf.

I am sure the man is right - but when a person needs to smuggle explosives and have a safe house it is often reported that he had used the help of a known criminal who normally works for D-company or some other gang. Not a formal "member" but a tool who is used and protected. A mercenary with some loyalty to one gang.

The underworld criminal system is just like the ISI. There are "retired officers" and non state actors" and "occasional bad eggs" which are maintained to provide cover and deniability. I think the police and other state government bodies in Mumbai are too corrupt for words and maintain an uneasy truce with criminal gangs. Unfortunately criminal gangs cannot be dealt with without simultaneously dealing with some very very senior and influential people in the Maharashtra government. This IMO is the real elephant in the room.

Time and time again there are media reports of the nexus between criminal and government in Mumbai. Mumbai has seen too many attacks. Some serious cleaning up is required. Just because I am ready to accept that my father died of old age I cannot accept the idea that he was "old" and his death in a terrorist attack is not a loss. I don't care if 50,000 people die in road accidents. But No one should die in a terrorist attack.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 07:39

ShauryaT wrote:
Once you know, exactly who is responsible for this policy in your city, you as a citizen can then act on them.

Shaurya - this is the most highly protected and secret information. This information does not trickle down from those high places. In my view it has only trickled "laterally" at the grass roots level from the few who have found out. If those few do not use their power to spread the formation, nothing can change.

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Jul 2011 07:40

Do the local corporators even know what they are suppossed to do? And the rusted iron frame of babucrazy IASs officers, the less said the better. Anyhow that is over the top, while our victims list is growing, the more teeth gnashing at BRF we do. For the aam indian (desi/rni/nri all-alike) it is somebody else's problem. Where are the statements of the CMs from Kerala and WB?

Anyway, the euphemism of "terror emanating from across the border" has changed to "terror emanating from some country up north". Read more here at http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... k?page=0,1

archan · Post by **archan** » 15 Jul 2011 07:50

shiv wrote:
tejas wrote: That leaves 1.5 million that are not peaceful. Is it reasonable to assume that they have not/will not engage in activities their co-religionists have engaged in the world over?
With deep respect Tejas, may I point out an 8000 pound Gorilla. This 1.5 million traitorous Indian Muslims whom you have diligently exposed in your post have to find some means of doingtheir job.

India has 1 billion non Muslims. Assume 200 million are Indic patriots who cannot be bought. That leaves 800 million. Assume only 0.1 % are corrupt (less than the 1% figure for Muslims). That leave 8 million non Muslims who are corrupt enough to be enticed by US aid dollars being paid by ISI.

The easy bit is to say "Oh 1.5 million Muslims are somehow involved. We all agree and I pull out my knife to finishe them off. But what does anyone do about the 8 million non Muslims. If you even have 1 million corrupt non Muslims - you need only one Dawood Ibrahim to kill thousands.

Mind you I am not trying to absolve Islam or Muslims. Why 1%? That is a psec figure - maybe 10% are traitors. Make that 15 million But the system in India is geared up to recognise people by caste and religion. It is not geared up to identify criminal behavior.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Jul 2011 07:53

Why Barking mutt and Dotty Roy and their ilk like Sagarika Ghost not talking about this?

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... _terrorism

From above:

First, policing is a state subject in India and thus the federal government has very limited ability to compel the states to invest in their police. And the states simply do not do so. Only Gujarat, Kerala, and Manipur have showed any interest in the central government's no-refund grant to states for modernizing their police forces, which totaled approximately $395 million as of March 2011. States have also been dilatory in securing funds available to them under the modified "Modernization of State Police Forces" program initiated by New Delhi in 2000-01.

Another study by Arkadipta Ghosh, a researcher at Mathematica Policy Research, found that Indian voters are most responsive during an election year rather than consistently concerned throughout the politician's tenure. Despite the poor performance of the Maharashtra state government before and during the 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai, for example, that government was re-elected less than a year later.

Where corruption is accepted as way of life, everything goes.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Jul 2011 08:06

The usual hindu muslim stereotyping has hijacked this dhaga; well in any case nothing is gonna happen so WTF.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:06

All Indian cities are vulnerable: Chidambaram

A day after the blasts, Mumbaikars slowly returned to normal even though home minister P Chidambaram said India was in the most troubled neighbourhood in the world and “all cities in India are vulnerable to attack. Pakistan-Afghanistan is the epicentre of terror”. Chidambaram, who reached Mumbai on Wednesday night itself, however, admitted that no specific lead had emerged as yet on the serial blasts that left 17 dead — the death toll was brought down on Thursday from 21 — and 113 injured.

The anti-terrorist squad (ATS) of the Maharashtra Police is probing every possible hostile group to identify the people behind Wednesday’s terror attack. Even the involvement of a suicide bomber is not being ruled out. The ATS on Thursday identified from CCTV footage at least three suspects moving about near Khau Galli at Opera House just before the blast occurred.

An investigating officer said on condition of anonymity that the three did not “fit” in the crowd and did not seem to know each other. “They are, however, seen using mobile phones whereas the Indian Mujahideen (IM) operatives have stopped using cellphones.”

On Thursday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress president Sonia Gandhi arrived in Mumbai, with Singh assuring the nation that his government would “do everything in its power” to prevent Mumbai-like terror attacks in future.
Earlier, the PM cancelled a series of meetings in Delhi as he decided to go to Mumbai after the serial blasts. A cabinet meeting, a meeting of the cabinet committee and a special meeting with his entire team of ministers were cancelled on Thursday.

Chidambaram told the media at Sahyadri, the state guest house, located just a few kilometres from two of the blast sites at Opera House and Zaveri Bazaar, that the blasts were not aimed at unnerving the business centres.

He said, “I walked on these lanes yesterday… I think they chose places where even a low-intensity blast would have a great impact,” he said.

Meanwhile, top BJP leaders LK Advani and Arun Jaitley sought to corner the UPA government by blaming its policy for terrorism in the country and questioned the wisdom behind pursuing talks with Pakistan.
Advani rushed to the blast sites and declared: “It is the government’s policy failure rather than intelligence failure that led to such incidents.”

He said the terror attacks were a proxy war waged by Pakistan, and the government “must be categorical that there will be no tolerance towards terrorism after Wednesday’s attacks”.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:11

Centralised intelligence sharing still a non-starter

The two institutions announced after the November 26, 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai to revamp India’s security architecture are still far from being battle-ready. While the National Intelligence Grid, meant to fuse intelligence from diverse agencies, is limping, the National Counter-Terrorism Centre (NCTC) is as good as abandoned.

After a lot of wrangling between ministries and security agencies, the Planning Commission on July 7 — seven months after a detailed project report was made — finally approved the NATGRID, but in a truncated form.

The union cabinet has not even considered the home ministry concept note for the NCTC — which was to subsume NATGRID and other intelligence agencies.

The design of the NATGRID was to enable multiple-query searches across databases — for instance, how many people visited India and Pakistan thrice last year and changed his mobile number each time.

In its revised form, the NATGRID will not have direct access to banking transactions as the financial intelligence unit (FIU) under the finance ministry that monitors suspicious transactions resisted the move.

“As a result, NATGRID will have to seek information from the FIU manually, making the whole exercise redundant,” an expert said.

“Banking data is a key input in predictive analysis of security scenario. The NATGRID’s capabilities will be severely limited without a direct access,” an official familiar with the situation said. “FIU works on specific information about an entity carrying out illegal transaction and a teller — a 20 something clerk – in the banking counter reporting suspicious transactions. Most tellers report someone with a beard as a suspicious customer, leading to nothing,” another intelligence official said.

A senior official who participated in an internal meeting on NATGRID said the security agencies had converted it into a turf battle. “An agency that has been tapping phones at the drop of a hat objected to NATGRID, citing privacy concerns,” he said. In May, weeks before retirement as home secretary, GK Pillai wrote to cabinet secretary and the prime minister’s office that the delay in setting up the NATGRID and NCTC could have serious repercussions for internal security.

“We have not been told, for instance, if the discussion paper we prepared for the NCTC has been rejected or if it needs modification,” Pillai had said.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 15 Jul 2011 08:15

The warning signals were there: Maroof Raza

With the elimination of Osama bin Laden and the imminence of a US-Nato withdrawal from the AfPak region, terror networks were expected to get active again. Take the case of the past four months. The warning signals have been there for us to see as we learnt of a number of failed bomb attacks - in Ranchi, Sealdah-New Delhi Rajdhani Express, Delhi high court, Delhi's Gargi College and elsewhere - which were dismissed as pranks, and weren't followed up on. But, in fact, these were perhaps signs of what the Islamic Jihad (IJ) or the Indian Mujahideen (IM) - groups that have traditionally targeted Mumbai - were preparing for. The IM was set up as part of the LeT's so-called Karachi Project around 2002-03 to create a fifth column of jihadis in India who could aid and carry out terror attacks at the direction of the hardliners in the Pakistani establishment.

Instead of using local policeman purely as muscle and trusting only a few specialists in state capitals to deal with all other aspects of policing like investigation, intelligence etc, we must integrate our local police stations to assist with these tasks as well. The national intelligence grid initiative could help fill this void, but it is still some years from being completed. Until then, our policing will remain inadequate. That apart, the shortage of police personnel across the country is in itself another sorry tale of what we haven't been able to achieve despite decades of terror attacks and the wake-up call of 26/11. By the admission of the home ministry itself, about 5,40,000 policemen were immediately required to make up the shortages in our police forces. But less than a third of that number has been recruited.

Moreover, the sheer stubbornness of Manmohan Singh in engaging Pakistan despite Pakistan's unwillingness to do more on the evidence of 26/11 - the botched list of the most wanted 50 individuals notwithstanding - and also the rehabilitation of politicians like Vilasrao Deshmukh and R R Patil have shown that while India might not be willing, Singh is certainly willing to forgive and forget.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:15

Police find crucial CCTV footage, 'identify' suspects

Security agencies have been aware of the presence of some IM operatives in Mumbai for the last one month, the investigator said. “We know they have spoken to their families and their presence has been registered.” The family members have not been questioned as the intelligence agencies do not want to alert the suspected IM operatives that they are under surveillance.

Security agencies were also trying to identify the motive for Wednesday’s blasts. They could have been in retaliation for the arrest of ten IM operatives from Madhya Pradesh and one from Vadodara last month or a diversionary tactic to draw investigators away, the officer said. He dismissed the two IM operatives who were arrested by the Maharashtra
Police’s Anti-Terrorism Squad a couple of days ago as mere car thieves not connected to Wednesday’s blasts. The two are accused of stealing the cars used in the Ahmedabad blasts of 2008.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Jul 2011 08:17

What does Maroof Raza know; MMS is inncocent he has stale-warts like Sharad Pawar in his cabinet bole to integrity personified.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 15 Jul 2011 08:22

Resounding failure
''If the Centre failed, the state failed more.''
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/176 ... ilure.html

Indian government a bunch of softies, say NRIs
http://www.starnews.in/world/52-more/13 ... s-say-nris

The central govt is not serious about these attacks. The govt has literally has become inactive as they are, not focussing on protecting any citizens of India against terror. Unless there is a strong anti terror statements and action in Mumbai comes from the govt Congress govt will be responsible for the conflicts between religious communities in India. They should bring all active muslim outfits under strict monitor of the govt. All the money supply from and to them should be monitored and strictly reasoned out. Some of their publications should be monitored. Their activities should also be closely observed. I realise that we have nearly 120 million Muslims in India. Intelligence within Muslim communities should be our priority which will be a major success in getting prior information. Majority of them is still peace loving nationalists of india. There should be Muslim anti terror police force that will work within their community to fight the terror within though it should not be completly exclusive of other police officers. But it is time for India central and state govts to check some of these Islamic movements, their money, their hatred content towards ctothers and also their activities. I should say this applies to any religious movements having such suspicious terror activities including Christianity!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:25

Home-grown jihadis, now in Pak, under scanner

In an intelligence-led operation in May 2005, the Maharashtra police recovered 16, AK-47 rifles, 3200 cartriges, 43 KG RDX explosive, 50 hand grenades and 40 magazines in Aurangabad district. More than half a dozen accused were arrested but the two main accused Zabiuddin Ansari and Fayyaz Kagzi managed to escape. Ansari and Kagzi, now well-protected in Pakistan and part of the ‘Karachi Project’ of ISI, came back to haunt Indian intelligence operatives when they planned a deadly bomb blast in the German Bakery in Pune in February, 2010.

The Karachi Project, handled by two former Pakistani army majors, Abdul Rehman Pasha and Haroon, uses home-grown jehadis for carrying out terror operations in India. Haroon and Pasha, both arrested in Pakistan after the 26/11 Mumbai attacks under the American pressure, were very close to al Qaeda military commander Ilyas Kashmiri who was recently killed in a drone attack.

According to intelligence inputs, apart from Kagzi and Ansari, there are many home-grown jehadis who are now part of the Karachi Project and are living in Pakistan, plotting terror activities in India and the latest Mumbai blasts could be handiwork of a module linked to any one of these jehadis.

Rahil Shaikh was living on the Grant Road in Mumbai, when he managed to give a slip to the Delhi police party and fled to Pakistan via Nepal.

An old Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), Rahil was closely associated with Bhatkal brothers — Iqbal and Riyaz — who were instrumental in creation of Indian Mujahideen (IM).

There were reports of Riyaz being killed in a shooting in Karachi earlier this year. But so far Indian intelligence agencies have no independent confirmation of the report as the photo provided as proof of his killing turned out to be a morphed one.

According to sources, Riyaz was trying to revive the IM. He had plans to use suicide bombers. Gujarat-based criminal Rasool Khan ‘Party’ and Mufti Sufian Patingia, a cleric from Ahmedabad and accused in the assassination of former Gujarat home minister Haren Pandya, are also believed to be in Karachi. Another important jahadi is Abdul Aziz Gidda from Hyderabad. Any of them may be involved in the latest case.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Jul 2011 08:25

Well for a start all these guys who are behind these take inspiration from likes of Zakir Naik ul mofo and obviously , question is does the one who has no b@lls and shall not be named have what it takes to round these guys up or continue to wait until we become a 10 trillion dalla economy while continue to loose sleep over Godhara ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2011 08:30

tejas wrote:I feel compelled to talk about the 800 lb. gorilla in the room no one else seems to want to acknowledge. What if Pakistan has nothing to do with this blast? There are 150 million muslims in India. Let us say 99% are peace loving ( a higher number than anywhere else on earth I will grant you). That leaves 1.5 million that are not peaceful. Is it reasonable to assume that they have not/will not engage in activities their co-religionists have engaged in the world over?

Ignoring this problem will not make it go away. Unfortunately I have no solution to it. That solution was available in 1947 and was not acted upon. One thing is certain appeasing this population will never make things better. The more that is offered the more that will be demanded.

Tejas, Shiv already gave you the societal angle.

I will give you techincal one.

The bum so far is Ammonium Nitrate based. That stuff is insensitive like hell. It needs a booster like RDX to set it off. And RDX is not available in Troop Bazaar along with paint. Its a military explosive and is difficult to handle. And the Home Secy said they used electronic detonator. So such bombs are made by TSP agencies using their agents for plausible deniability. I am saying such people who work for them whether Indian or Paki are their agents.

So lets not tar and feather whole communities. And always remember CQMH Abdul Hamid PVC Or Lt. Hanifuddin and their sacrifices for janama bhoomi.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:31

Govt. will do everything to prevent attacks: Manmohan

“There were no intelligence inputs to the Central or the State agencies about any imminent attack in Mumbai. This does not mean a failure of intelligence. They [perpetrators] worked in a clandestine manner. Intelligence sharing has indeed improved. We monitor inputs every day. The Maharashtra government has responded promptly to inputs,” Mr. Chidambaram said at a press conference here.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 15 Jul 2011 08:32

I was watching Mr. Chidambaran's media conference. One thing I noted that he said that "There was prior intelligence input" about the attack. This implies that our intelligence agencies : IB, R&AW failed to prevent the attack.
As this wasn't an attack like the 26/11 where the police or ATS couldn't have done a lot to prevent it, this was. Ammonium nitrate was used and blown with coordination. This means that the bomb or the materials for the bomb were either made in the city or brought in. Thus, the police and the ATS failed to uncover the underground sleeper cells running in Mumbai even after 26/11.
Chidambaran later went on to say how they are equipping the police better and were purchasing new CCTV cameras. All well Mr. Chidambaran, but technology doesn't necessarily "prevent" terror attacks, it just makes it easier for the investigation.
We usually get lost by looking at how Americans or Israelis prevent attacks in their country and get mesmerized by the high-tech gadgets which are available there. What we fail to realize is that, all this technology only makes policing easier, but it doesn't stop terrorist attacks from happening.
Attacks against a country can only be prevented with raw intelligence. Intelligence is what prevents attacks from happening. Wiring phones, infiltrating the terrorists or whatever, that's how you ensure you keep your citizens safe.
Funding for defense in our country has only decreased, and our external spy agency (R&AW) is visibly absent and ignored by the current government. I am not against upgrading our system with high technology as it will only make the job of the police easier but if you want to prevent terrorism, you do it with a heavily funded intelligence whose importance has only been undermined by the current Congress government.

This attack was simply a complete failure. An intelligence and a policy one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 08:33

joshvajohn wrote:Resounding failure
''If the Centre failed, the state failed more.''
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/176 ... ilure.html

The common argument that terrorists can choose their time and place of attack does not absolve the state of its responsibility to the people. Home Minister P Chidambaram has ruled out any lapse on the part of intelligence agencies. The Maharashtra government has said there was no credible intelligence. But the problem of credibility is with those who make the claims, the assertions and the denials.

We see the same charade every time there is an attack and killings. The prime minister speaks to the chief minister, the home minister appeals for calm, all go to the site of the attack, the police name some suspects and claim they are working on various clues.
<snip>

The failure is only part of a larger failure of governance. When the government is in a continuous scandal-fighting mode, its basic functions take a back seat. The prime culprit in Mumbai, however, is the state government. If the Centre failed, the state failed more.

It was the duty of its government, more than of all others, to keep the city, which has been the most frequent target of terror, safe for life and work. But it has seen only tentative governance for many years, with chief ministers, including the present one, being planted as improvised political devices in problematic situations. But it may be a fruitless job finding degrees of blame when all are in it in different ways.

Well said!! Happy to see this in a mainstream newspaper.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 15 Jul 2011 08:34

I don't understand you people!

We don't have a choice to go to war. War has been declared and one side already started fighting!

Your country men are dying and you are quoting news articles. Go to your governing body and force them to declare war, or threaten a vote of no confidence. Exercise your rights as Indian citizens to bring down the government if it refuses to oblige to your demands.

Who cares what Pakistan wants you to do or America wants India to do...

Fight war on your terms. Cut off water, do a naval blockade, force them to the table on your terms.

It's shameful we're getting slapped around by a country 1/10th of our size. Doesn't anyone else feel ashamed....

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 15 Jul 2011 08:36

TOILET in full overflow mode, stinking the whole place with its crap

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 229539.cms

Data from the US government-maintained Worldwide Incidents Tracking System shows that 390 Mumbaikars have died and over 1,349 have been wounded at the hands of terror in Mumbai since 2005, a close comparison to Karachi, which has lost 500 citizens and left 1,103 wounded in the same period.

More than 500 have died in 1 month in Pakiland. What a bunch of crooked reporters.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Jul 2011 08:37

^^ On a news channel yesterday, Shri. Ajit Doval (one of thes Doyens of our intel agencies, for the uninitiated) started listing out all the steps( related to intelligence and internal security) taken by UPA since coming to power in 2004 and how this had adversly affected the morale of our agencies etc.

And the reply by INC spokesman( Sri.Singhvi) : Doval is a BJP supporter.

This is the attitude of our GoI. Go figure as to how succesful our "counter- terror" strategy will be.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2011 08:38

Sravan wrote: Go to your governing body and force them to declare war, or threaten a vote of no confidence. Exercise your rights as Indian citizens to bring down the government if it refuses to oblige to your demands.

Saar this is pure Americanitis of the sort we see from time to time on this forum. Try Facebook and Twitter to get the message across further.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:39

Fears of a new terror module

With no specific clues emerging about the perpetrators behind the serial blasts that hit the financial capital yesterday, security agencies have cautioned the Centre that a new terror module has possibly emerged which has been able to organise itself “well” in the past year or so.

This module may contain some old faces but new recruits have clearly been added, highly placed sources said. Although investigators strongly suspect an Indian Mujahideen link to this new module, they are keeping an “open mind” to avoid pursuing a single line of investigation given the paucity of leads, they said.

Police officers in Mumbai said they were hoping that their first breakthrough would come from the enormous amounts of forensic evidence and CCTV images from the blast sites. While forensic experts initially found that the bombs had used ammonium nitrate and timer devices, a preliminary analysis of samples recovered from the sites suggests that a cocktail of Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil (ANFO) was used.

Similar fertiliser bombs built with ANFO were used in previous blasts such as the July 26, 2008, Ahmedabad blasts. In the 7/11 serial train blasts in Mumbai, ANFO was mixed with RDX. Sources said that forensic teams have recovered cotton swabs from the Zaveri Bazaar blast site with oil stains, along with some remnants of the scooter on which the bomb was placed.

“Usually ammonium nitrate requires a catalyst such as fuel oil or sugar to increase the intensity of the explosion. Samples of fuel oil have been recovered from the sites. In a post-explosion site, it is extremely rare to come across remnants of the detonators used. In this case though, initial analysis suggests that mechanical detonators were used along with regular clock-device timers,” said a source involved in the probe.

The IM link has also been suspected because the targeted areas are predominantly Gujarati, the sources said, adding that there was cause for worry as this new module seemed to have attained a basic level of technical skill to carry out such explosions.

The fear, the sources said, is that emboldened by the impact of the latest Mumbai blasts, the module could venture to launch more attacks at regular intervals like in 2007 and 2008.

This would mean that the period of relative lull since 26/11 could, in fact, come to an end.

This fact was even highlighted at the Prime Minister’s review of the security situation today with emphasis being laid on maintaining the state of heightened security alert.

A set of incidents starting with the German Bakery blast last year in Pune, the explosion at the Dasasvamedh ghat in Varanasi, interspersed with small incidents like the explosion at the Chinnaswamy Stadium in Bangalore and the recent low intensity explosion near the Delhi High Court, are being looked afresh.

Some security sources feel that notwithstanding the Pune blast, the others seem to have been attempts by a new module to perfect its skills.

...

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 15 Jul 2011 08:43

shiv wrote: That leave 8 million non Muslims who are corrupt enough to be enticed by US aid dollars being paid by ISI.

I have asked this question several times before and never got an answer. Let me ask it again : How much did it cost the terrorists to plant 3 IEDs in Bombay including the automobiles that they used ? 3 lakhs at the most ? That's less than 10k $. US aid or no aid, when materials are so easily available locally and men can be moved ideologically all it takes is a few thousand rupees ( probably fake currency) to arrange materials and logistics, and a sermon at the mosque to move gears within those lobotomized individuals who planted them. The legendary movie 'The battle of Algiers' is a must watch for those who think and comment on urban terrorism. It is extremely inexpensive to wage urban warfare through terrorism, there is no quick solution to defeat ideologies however flawed they might be, but the damage can be contained massively through superior intelligence and a tireless vigilance like Israel/US have displayed in the last decade or two.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:51

Ammonium nitrate: Rules gather dust

Despite the fact that ammonium nitrate is the favoured choice of explosive used to trigger blasts in several cities since 2006, the Government has dragged its feet on its regulation which several countries like USA, UK and Australia achieved years ago.

In fact, it was just a week ago that the Commerce Ministry received the Law Ministry’s nod to include ammonium nitrate in the list of explosives covered under the 1884 Explosives Act. Officials in the Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion (DIPP) say they were awaiting the final nod of Minister Anand Sharma before issuing the required notification.

The fact is it has taken over three years for this follow-up action. It was after the use of ammonium nitrate in successive blasts in Varanasi, Mumbai, Malegaon and Hyderabad that the first serious steps towards regulation were taken. In December 2007, a committee under the Home Secretary was set up to examine the systems of manufacture, supply and pilferage of explosive substances, including ammonium nitrate which has a high volume of legitimate use in the industrial and agricultural sectors.

In December 2008, a notification was issued to include ammonium nitrate as a “special category explosive substance” in the 1908 Explosive Substances Act. A year later, this was backed with drafting of ammonium nitrate rules.

However, while the amendments in the Explosive Substances Act only provide preventive and punitive measures for possession and misuse of ammonium nitrate, the more crucial amendments in the 1884 Act for regulation of the substance are still awaited. Along with the amendments, the draft rules — prepared by the Director, DIPP, in 2009 — have also not been finalised. Said a DIPP official: “That’s work in progress. The problem is that several departments and Ministries are involved in the process and that is why it has taken so long.”

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Jul 2011 08:54

Be restrained: I&B to TV

The I&B Ministry on Wednesday evening sent out a strict message to television channels to be restrained in their coverage of the blasts.

“A ministry official called some TV news editors and members of bodies such as News Broadcasters Association (NBA) and Broadcast Editors’ Association (BEA) to take due care in their coverage and adhere to certain do’s and don’ts,” said a senior editor of a well-known national news channel.

Following the call from the ministry, NBA re-issued an advisory to all its member channels, asking them to follow the code of ethics, particularly the emergency guidelines that it had issued at the time of 26/11 attacks. NBA advised its members to treat the “dead with dignity” and not to air their visuals. “Special care should be taken in the broadcast of any distressing visuals and graphics showing grief and emotional scenes of victims and relatives which could cause distress to children and families,” the advisory said.

Senior editors, however, are crediting NBA and BEA, instead of the ministry, for the efforts to rein in zealous channels. “There is a growing consciousness among channels to be more responsible in coverage of sensitive events such as blasts or communal tensions,” said Rajdeep Sardesai, editor-in-chief IBN18 that runs CNN-IBN, IBN7 and IBN-Lokmat.

NBA and BEA also asked members to avoid airing live interviews with victims or security personnel or any of the supposed perpetrators. The NBA advisory said channels should avoid “unnecessary repeated or continuous broadcast of archival footage that may tend to reagitate the mind of the viewers”.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 15 Jul 2011 08:54

Our constitution:

44. The State shall endeavour to secure for the citizens
a uniform civil code throughout the territory of India

45 The State shall endeavour to provide, within a
period of ten years from the commencement of this
Constitution, for free and compulsory education for all
children until they complete the age of fourteen years

It shall be the duty of every citizen of India—
(a) to abide by the Constitution and respect its
ideals and institutions, the National Flag and the
National Anthem;
(b) to cherish and follow the noble ideals which
inspired our national struggle for freedom;
(c) to uphold and protect the sovereignty, unity
and integrity of India;
(d) to defend the country and render national
service when called upon to do so;
(e) to promote harmony and the spirit of common
b r o t h e r h o o d amo n g s t a l l t h e p e o p l e o f I n d i a
transcending religious, linguistic and regional or
sectional diversities; to renounce practices derogatory
to the dignity of women;
(f) to value and preserve the rich heritage of our
composite culture;
(g) to protect and improve the natural environment
including forests, lakes, rivers and wild life, and to
have compassion for living creatures;
(h) to develop the scientific temper, humanism and
the spirit of inquiry and reform;
(i) to safeguard public property and to abjure
violence;
(j) to strive towards excellence in all spheres of
individual and collective activity so that the nation
constantly rises to higher levels of endeavour and
achievement;
*[(k) who is a parent or guardian to provide
opportunities for education to his child or, as the
case may be, ward between the age of six and
fourteen years.]

This is not Americanitis. Do what the fore fathers wanted us to accomplish! WHY ARE WE HESITANT TO TAKE MATTERS INTO OUR OWN HANDS. Let's do it!

STEP 1:

352. (1) If the President is satisfied that a grave
emergency exists whereby the security of India or of any
part of the territory thereof is threatened, whether by
war or external aggression or
1
[armed rebellion], he may,
by Proclamation, make a declaration to that effect
2
[in
respect of the whole of India or of such part of the
territory thereof as may be specified in the Proclamation].
3
[E x p l a n a t i o n .—A P r o c l ama t i o n o f Eme r g e n c y
declaring that the security of India or any part of the
territory thereof is threatened by war or by external
aggression or by armed rebellion may be made before
the actual occurrence of war or of any such aggression or
rebellion, if the President is satisfied that there is imminent
danger thereof.]
4
[(2) A Proclamation issued under clause (1) may be
varied or revoked by a subsequent Proclamation.
(3) The President shall not issue a Proclamation under
clause (1) or a Proclamation varying such Proclamation
unless the decision of the Union Cabinet (that is to say,
the Council consisting of the Prime Minister and other
Ministers of Cabinet rank appointed under article 75)
that such a Proclamation may be issued has been
communicated to him in writing.
(4) Every Proclamation issued under this article shall
be laid before each House of Parliament and shall, except
wh e r e i t i s a P r o c l ama t i o n r e v o k i n g a p r e v i o u s
Proclamation, cease to operate at the expiration of one
month unless before the expiration of that period it has
b e e n a p p r o v e d b y r e s o l u t i o n s o f b o t h Ho u s e s o f
Parliament

Get the president to declare emergency.

Step #2 Make sure the Houses and Parliament do not revoke this proclamation.

Declare war!

Step #3 Release the army.

shiv wrote:
Sravan wrote: Go to your governing body and force them to declare war, or threaten a vote of no confidence. Exercise your rights as Indian citizens to bring down the government if it refuses to oblige to your demands.
Saar this is pure Americanitis of the sort we see from time to time on this forum. Try Facebook and Twitter to get the message across further.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2011 09:02

Only Neelam Sanjeeva Reddy would have the gumption to invoke the Emergency powers of the President.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 15 Jul 2011 09:06

ramana wrote: I will give you techincal one.

The bum so far is Ammonium Nitrate based. That stuff is insensitive like hell. It needs a booster like RDX to set it off. And RDX is not available in Troop Bazaar along with paint. Its a military explosive and is difficult to handle. And the Home Secy said they used electronic detonator. So such bombs are made by TSP agencies using their agents for plausible deniability. I am saying such people who work for them whether Indian or Paki are their agents.

If you grew up close to a mining area, you'd notice how easy it is to acquire industrial explosives and chemicals like nitro compounds that can be used as boosters. Terrorists need not "import" these materials from outside. Attacks after attacks involve automobiles, and our agencies never seem to dig deeper into them. Somehow, the mangled remains of a blown car is of no use for them to investigate.