Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

[SwamyG]

<self edited out - I guess one cannot peer advice in BRF>

[ramana]

boss, you are missing the point thinking this is about INC bashing maino whatever business.
it is not, it is whether some Indian citizens who happen to be politicians have links to ISI, THAT is the point, not their political e ty.

otherwise, pray tell me why did you post the telegraph link about some media persons' links to fai ?

Nope you're the on missing the point and I'm surprised that you are. Vera made a specific allegation. He said elements within the govt knew about the attacks and yet did nothing about it. That amounts to accusing the govt of treason. That's totally different from accusing some politician having a connection with some ISI element on their individual capacity. The Telegraph article I linked is a totally different kettle of fish.

Right after 26/11 MKN submitted his resignation. MMS did not accept and said some words to the effect " You did your best bu things tunred other way.
You can go thru the archive thread to get exact quote.

To me this above statement shows goi knew something was afoot and sprang a trap that went awry.

BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

JEM, All those people are "agents under influence" Don't need to recruit them, as they willingly will do the needful for ISI.
Recall the Amir Khan movie "Sarfarosh" where there is a Paki poet guy doing facilitation.

------

Added: SwamyG there are admins who know when to take a stand.

[somnath]

A truly innocent WKK wll say:
I didn't know Fai was ISI backed and am sorry to have associated with him. In future will make sure who is who before associating with them.
Galleon investors are money related. Fai caper is national security realted. A world of difference.
Please keep perspective and don't keep backing bad people

I am not defending or "backing" anyone, just providing a perspective of what these Track II jamborees mean - having been personal acquientances of people who are/have been regulars..

About what people who attended Fai's seminars should do, I agree..Dileep Padgaonkar has already said something similar..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/padga ... s/820304/0

In hindsight, I agree that if I had the slightest idea about who he actually was, I would never have agreed to go to the US for his conference,” Padgaonkar told The Indian Express.

BTW, if there is "guilt by association", then the severity of the guilt itself is a different question - which was my limited point..

[Singha]

people who agree to go talk in these 'beat-india' lovefests are already infected with the virus. they were selected and invited due to this and their prominent place in society, nobody sent you or me a invite.

I think they ought to be tarnished because of that, not just because they went to these Faistivals.

[nachiket]

If any of these worthies had attended those conferences to defend India's position on Kashmir and counter paki propaganda, we would not be questioning their allegiance now. But these conferences were basically Bash India meets which is mentioned even by Howard Schaeffer in his article when he states that viewpoints not aligned with that of the paki state were never discussed there. Yet these people attended those conferences. Their motivations to do so have to be more than just "free phoren trip" especially considering the independantly expressed viewpoints regarding Kashmir by people like Navalakha etc.

[sanjeevpunj]

The current Indo-Pak peace talks is a creation of a section of the Indian Press shaking hands with a section of the Pakistani Press, and these efforts do not voice the genuine concerns of Indian Armed Forces at all.As usual the Press walas have their own agenda, and they ignore or sideline core issues.They ignore sacrifices of our soldiers who gave up their life defending the borders.If at all there can be successful peace talks,they have to involve top Military Commanders of both countries.Nothing lesser than that can give desired results of lasting peace.This is my opinion.

[nachiket]

BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

Ramana ji, I know it is not my place to give you any suggestions in this matter, but I humbly believe that you may be erring in clubbing these two gentleman together. While I do not agree with Amit in this case, I have read his posts in other threads here as well as the Mil forum and they have never come across as being against India's national security concerns.
Fully agree with you regarding the other gentleman in question.

I am sorry if this post is inappropriate. I will delete it if necessary. Just let me know.

[disha]

I am not defending or "backing" anyone, just providing a perspective of what these Track II jamborees mean - having been personal acquientances of people who are/have been regulars..

About what people who attended Fai's seminars should do, I agree..Dileep Padgaonkar has already said something similar..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/padga ... s/820304/0

In hindsight, I agree that if I had the slightest idea about who he actually was, I would never have agreed to go to the US for his conference,” Padgaonkar told The Indian Express.

BTW, if there is "guilt by association", then the severity of the guilt itself is a different question - which was my limited point..

First of all there is no "innocent WKK". They are at the least supporter of murderers.

Now, there is something called "moral compass"., which allows somebody to not get associated with Fai types. Just for a few crumbs, daru and depraved cravings, if one gets associated with Fai types and then whines about ignorance, they are simply lying. Feigned ignorance is also not a cover up for servitude or lack of moralities.

And defending those turds, shows your moral compass or rather lack of it. Just an observation.

PS: Edited later: Truly did not see Ramanaji's post earlier.

[chetak]

Predator territory.

Hunker down and maintain a very low profile

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ Agreed.

To think these 2-bit Track-II patsies who go around self-importantly thinking they make the world go round are in a bit of bother seems to raise defensive hackles in some throughbreds it seems. Must be my rather ordinary comprehension that I can't figure out this passionate need to sanitize/ white-wash/ play-down the implications of fornicating with the ISI's hoors on all-paid luxury trips to phoren shores. Not on BRF at least. Am sure there're WKK fora out there where such thought is mainstream.

[sum]

In hindsight, I agree that if I had the slightest idea about who he actually was, I would never have agreed to go to the US for his conference,” Padgaonkar told The Indian Express.

Yeah, right...a top-notch journalist doesn't even know the open secret about his host!!

Somnath-ji,
I hope you next don't post a sentence by Geelani saying how he never knew that Pak was involved in J&K terror else he wouldn't have backed them.

[CRamS]

The sad part is that unless Uncle says someone is baaad, nobody in "South Asia" accepts that. Thats the colonial legacy. The same WKKs would have been mocking India's claim that this Fai Chutiya is a little dummy in the palms of ISI, but now that US has come out and declared Fai to be the swine that he is, everybody is running for cover. Tells you that US is the ultimate bahadur. Fading uperpower? My foot. Not a leaf moves anytwhere in world, including "South Asia" without Uncle's approvale.

Howard Shafer's claim that Fai/ISI's efforts have come to naught is a lie. Of course, ISI or not, people like him are the ones who have given legitimacy to the terrorism in Kashmir. Howard Schafer dude was on C-SPAN many times berating India, and singing the Paki tune on Kashmir. Of course, he does say that LoC == IB is the only viable solution, but people like him have poured petrol on fire.

[Gus]

people who agree to go talk in these 'beat-india' lovefests are already infected with the virus. they were selected and invited due to this and their prominent place in society, nobody sent you or me a invite.

SSwamy looks like he was duped...he is nationalistic at heart...at least that's my reading.

Padgaonkar and Sachar are the big names for me...they are the ones peddling their crap as unbiased experts.

I think they ought to be tarnished because of that, not just because they went to these Faistivals.

definitely..but this just gives us the opportunity to let these names be discredited in more minds.

[Joseph]

Sum,

Thank you for posting this.

Analysts see Pakistan terror links to Xinjiang attack

On Wednesday, government-run newspapers quoted terrorism experts as saying the attacks were carried out by separatists, likely linked to terror groups active in Pakistan. Xinjiang shares a border with Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

SSridhar,

It looks like China is on the same path as other countries have been of first being supportive and putting something in the Pakistani Begging Bowl.

Now the public announcement of trouble caused by miscreants with links to Pakistani miscreants.

The PA is unable and unwilling to go into the training camps to sort out the anti China groups to be eliminated from the anti West & anti India groups that will be protected.

China has either overlooked the SD vs RSD struggle or put too much faith in assurances - promises that the anti China training camps would be eliminated.

If the lower echelons of the PA are heavily tilted to the RSD group, then they would see no difference between the anti China groups, anti India groups and anti West groups. Eliminating the anti China groups would go against the PA RSD philosophy.

[sum]

B.Raman on why Desh is insignificant in the Fai affair:
Why India shouldn't be over-excited about Fai's arrest in US

The practice of intelligence agencies floating and funding non-governmental organisations and even publishing houses for using them for psywar (psychological warfare) purposes was born during the World War II and used extensively during the subsequent cold war against the USSR and its communist allies.
Click here!

Click here to read the FBI compliant against Fai

In the 1960s and the '70s, the US media highlighted this practice and revealed the links of many supposedly prestigious US non-governmental organisations to the Central Intelligence Agency. One of these organisations used to fund the visits of many senior Indian government servants to the US for some purpose or the other.

A senior official in the ministry of home affairs, who was on a Congressional fellowship in the US at the invitation of a highly prestigious non-governmental organisation, was embarrassed when the US media identified it as funded and used by the CIA for softening public opinion moulders in other countries.

He immediately drew the attention of the Government of India to this report and asked for instructions whether he should terminate his fellowship and return to India. The Government of India advised him not to do so. It felt that he had not done anything wrong since he had no way of knowing that the CIA was behind that organisation.

This practice was also followed by the MI-6, the United Kingdom's secret intelligence service. In fact, some years ago, in reply to a question in the House of Commons, the British government admitted that some of the anti-communist best-sellers were sponsored and funded by the MI-6.

After the end of the cold war, this practice has come down but has not been abandoned. Intelligence agencies continue to float and fund NGOs, seminars, etc for psywar purposes. In addition, they also seek to soften political leaders by making contributions to their election funds.

In the 1980s, during the jihad against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan, considerable money was spent by the CIA and the Saudi intelligence for carrying on a psywar against the Soviet troops through NGOs. Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, which played a role in assisting in these psywar activities, which were often in Pashtun language, acquired considerable expertise in this field.

It has since been using this expertise for achieving its Kashmir-related objectives. Since 1989, the ISI has either floated a number of NGOs or has been funding organisations which already existed in order to use them against the Government of India. There are many such organisations in the West floated and/or funded by the ISI.

The more active amongst them is the Kashmiri American Council of Washington, DC, headed by Ghulam Nabi Fai, a US resident of Kashmiri origin. For nearly two decades, the KAC has been organising activities such as printing and disseminating propaganda pamphlets and other literature on alleged human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], holding national seminars in the US to which only residents in the US are invited, holding international seminars to which the participants are invited from many countries including India, lobbying against the Government of India in the US Congress and in the margins of international human rights conferences and softening US politicians by contributing to their election funds.

There were strong indications for many years that Fai and his organisation were promoting such activities at the instance of the ISI with funds provided by it. His activities were against US laws, but the US agencies chose to close their eyes to them and refrained from taking any criminal action against him because of what the US perceived as the useful role played by Pakistan as a frontline ally in the war against terrorism.

Since the beginning of 2011, there have been complaints in Pakistan that since 9/11 there has been a mushrooming of US intelligence presence in Pakistan due to an increase in secret and undeclared activities of the US agencies. After the Raymond Davis incident in January, the Pakistan government has been trying to keep a greater check on such activities through measures such as asking the US to reduce its intelligence presence and tightening the procedure for the issue of visas to the suspected but undeclared intelligence personnel.

The activities of Fai and his organisation came under the category of secret and undeclared activities of the ISI in US territory. In return for the Pakistan government closing its eyes to the secret and undeclared activities of US intelligence in Pakistani territory, the US closed its eyes to the secret and undeclared activities of the ISI in US territory so long as those activities were directed against India and were not considered detrimental to the national security of the US.

Now that there has been a change in Pakistan's policy and it has abandoned its hitherto permissive attitude to the secret and undeclared activities of the US intelligence in Pakistani territory, the US has decided to retaliate by giving up its permissive attitude and putting an end to the secret and undeclared activities of the ISI in US territory. That is the message from the arrest on July 19 of Fai and another person for indulging in illegal activities as undeclared foreign agents and the decision to prosecute them.

While we should be gratified over the US action, we should avoid over-assessing its significance as an indicator of US solidarity with India or as a precursor to a possible change in the US attitude to Pakistani claims and designs relating to J&K. It is an opportunistic and tactical action to exercise pressure on Pakistan and its ISI to do the US bidding and nothing more.

No word on whether Desh has ever had any such capabilty( front organizations etc) etc...only cases of US/Pak/USSR etc cited.

[sum]

ISI sponsors Kashmiri militant groups: FBI

Pakistan's spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence sponsors terrorism in Kashmir and it oversees terrorist groups there, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has said in the first-ever open acknowledgment by a United States agency that Islamabad is a 'State Sponsor of Terrorism'

In a 43-page affidavit to a US court in Alexandria in a case related to the arrest of Kashmiri separatist leader Ghulam Nabi Fai, Special FBI agent Sarah Webb Linden said that the ISI's Security Directorate "oversees Kashmiri militant groups".

Unkil seems to be pi$$ed with the S-Branch...wonder why?

Linden mentioned about Brigadier Javeed Aziz Khan, the ISI officer who handled Fai, head of the Washington-based Kashmiri American Council, and identified him as Fai's primary supervisor within the spy agency.

Now, it is being argued that Pakistan fits into American standard of State Sponsors of Terrorism criteria in more than one way.

Pakistan provides safe haven and ideological support to members of terrorist groups that are designated as Foreign Terrorist Organisation by the US (such as Lashkar-e- Tayiba, Hizbul Mujahideen [ Images ] etc); and for continuing to permit US fugitives and terrorists designated by the UN to live in the country (Osama bin Laden [ Images ], al-Zawahiri, Dawood Ibrahim etc).

Further it is principal supporter of groups that are implacably opposed to the US role in Afghanistan and a general anti-Indian stance (Haqqani network, LeT, HM etc.), provides weapons, training and funding to terrorist groups (LeT as revealed by David Headley [ Images ] in his testimony in the Chicago Court) and is unwilling to bring to justice senior al-Qaeda leaders (bin Laden was living in Abbottabad for five years).

Not only this, in Pakistan there is also the existence of foreign fighter facilitation networks (all terrorist plots that have targeted the US, including the Times Square bombing plot, Shoe Bomber etc. were traced back to training in Pakistan and similarly, existence of large number of foreign fighters for al-Qaeda in Pakistan training camps), experts feel.

As in the case of Sudan, which has been declared as a State Sponsor of Terrorism by the US in spite of the strong counter-terrorism cooperation between the two countries, because al-Qaeda-inspired terrorist elements as well as elements of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and HAMAS [ Images ], remained in Sudan, presence of Haqqani network, LeT, Hizbul Mujahideen, and other affiliated groups of al-Qaeda in Pakistan puts it on the same pedestal, they say.

[A_Gupta]

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-p ... ested-5641

How to Lobby for a Foreign Government (and not get arrested)

The federal indictment that was announced Wednesday, with the arrest of a Washington-based official of the Kashmiri group, was for violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act. This law, which requires those acting in a political or quasi-political capacity as agents of a foreign principal (which could be, but is not limited to, a foreign government) to put themselves on a list kept by the Department of Justice. The law has a legitimate and important purpose in facilitating transparency and making it easier to judge the motivations of those trying to influence U.S. policy. But whether or not a prosecutable case against a lobbyist can be assembled under the FARA is not the same as whether or not the lobbyist is exerting pressure on policymakers in the legislative or executive branch on behalf of a foreign government. Some of the strongest and most effective lobbying on behalf of foreign governments is done not by someone being bankrolled directly by the government in question and thus clearly an “agent,” but instead by lobbyists supported by others who strongly sympathize with the foreign government. That is true of most of what constitutes the India lobby, which thus escapes the “agent” designation.

[anupmisra]

1000th Test venue seeks Pakistan revival
More rhona dhona.

As England and India battle for supremacy on cricket’s most hallowed ground at Lord’s in the 2000th Test starting Thursday, Pakistan’s Niaz stadium has only faded memories to cherish.

Test matches are long gone from the Hyderabad venue and the last one-day international was against Zimbabwe in 2008.

Now the turf has been spoilt by wedding parties and its use as a helipad

It was also considered a lucky ground. Pakistan lost none of the five Tests and seven one-day games held there

“It’s cruel that a historic venue like Niaz stadium has been left unattended,”

There’s no comparison between Lord’s and Hyderabad

Like Miandad, Sachin is also a great batsman

Hey, paklurks. Don't rue your luck. Hyderabad (Sindh) will become useful again. There are other, more crowd pleasing uses for stadiums. Ask your tellibunny birathers.

[anupmisra]

And, here's the fallout. Pakistan accuses US of slander over Fai’s arrest
The chutzpah!!

Pakistan accused United States on Thursday of a campaign of slander against Islamabad over the arrest of a man accused of acting as a Pakistani government agent in the United States. Pakistan’s foreign office said the government had registered its anger over the issue to the US embassy in Islamabad on Thursday, particularly regarding slander by Washington against its Asian ally.

Registered it where? In the visitor's almanac? Where's a good, pliable court and judge when you need one?

All this drama while Gilani asks US not to ignore Pakistan in crediting victories

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani....stressed that victories in the fight against terrorism must be credited to Pakistan.

As we [Pakistan and US] are working together in fighting militancy, victories should be shared along with losses

That's good to hear. Lets see, America has spent how much in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[Rahul M]

ramana ji, please have a look at the other forum.
thx.

[lakshmikanth]

The sad part is that unless Uncle says someone is baaad, nobody in "South Asia" accepts that. Thats the colonial legacy. The same WKKs would have been mocking India's claim that this Fai Chutiya is a little dummy in the palms of ISI, but now that US has come out and declared Fai to be the swine that he is, everybody is running for cover. Tells you that US is the ultimate bahadur. Fading uperpower? My foot. Not a leaf moves anytwhere in world, including "South Asia" without Uncle's approvale.

Howard Shafer's claim that Fai/ISI's efforts have come to naught is a lie. Of course, ISI or not, people like him are the ones who have given legitimacy to the terrorism in Kashmir. Howard Schafer dude was on C-SPAN many times berating India, and singing the Paki tune on Kashmir. Of course, he does say that LoC == IB is the only viable solution, but people like him have poured petrol on fire.

I think more of it in naivete and/or intellectual laziness, rather than intentional malice (recall their article on the true nature of Bakistan, and why many of Gurus out here thought that the tubelight was slowly turning on).

The reason why I think so is that unless you have a keen interest in the history of the area like most Rakshaks do, the easiest thing to do is to converge to the picture painted by the "intelligence" community on what the national interest should be. Ofcourse, I wonder how the Shafers can claim credibility now that they admitted that they were "surprised" by Fai's arrest. If one could not have figured out that Fai was an ISI plant, then how can one claim with any bit of legitimacy that they can solve the "saaauth asia issue"

[Anujan]

Rahul Baba claims "he understands terrorism very well. BJP is the one who released Masood Azhar who then went on to plan Mumbai attacks"

Does that Moron even know who have been charge sheeted and accused of Mumbai attacks and who have not? Masood Azhar does not find the slightest mention vis-a-vis 26/11. With netas like these....
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i-und ... bjp-121112

[CRamS]

For all the scary talk about "South Asia" is nuke flashpoint, "Kashmir is nuke flashpoint" etc etc, A few simple policy decisions by Uncle (which are fair & just & legitimate, but will surely benefit India), just like this decision to expose Fai has sent shock waves in the region, will make the Indian subcontinent region stable in a heartbeat:

1) Declare TSP to be a terrorist state, and put markers on aid and other diplomatic support to TSP conditioned on cracking down on terrorists including India specific LeT etc.

2) Openly declare that just as it is in the case of Iran & North Korea, TSP is not a responsible country to have nukes. Uncle can easily halt the progress of TSP's nuke program including mobilizing international support to that cause. And any hanky panky by TSP to proliferate nukes or help their Islamic terrorist proxies gather nukes, Uncle will form an international coalition to level Kahuta and other air bases to a rubble of stones, and remotely de-capacitate TSP's F-solas, radars etc.

3) Declare that US will not support a religion-based secession of Kashmir from India, declare APHC as the voice of TSP/ISI, Uncle respects India's efforts to bring peace including elections at great cost, and TSP must respect this process. Uncle must into question the plight of POK and Gilgit, northern areas etc. Basically to shame TSP and their KM Muslim supporters that its an oxymoron for an Islamo fascist state to create terrorist mischief, nuke blackmail, and enormous suffering under the guise of supporting the right of self-determination of a bunch of pampered Muslims.

4) Instead of feeding TSP's strategy of drawing India into a nuke conflict through its paranoia that India poses a threat, US can openly declare that most Indian yawn when they think of TSP, and India poses no threat to TSP, and the only threat of war is TSP's terrorist provocation. Take away terror, and India has no reason, none whatsoever to covet even an inch of TSP territory.

[Shaashtanga]

I hope that more and more anal-ysts on Puki anal-itical shows start saying the stark truth (not just on English language but Urdu and other local language shows) so that the == facade in mango apdul eyes is shattered.

Shaashtanga, pranams. I completely agree with you. We should do that for the simple reason that it is one more nail we enjoy being driven into Pakistani coffin. However, a Pakistan that is inching towards a semi-comatose state will not die because of these slaps on the face. It has to be simply destroyed using every means available, including what you have said. That's why we must welcome every turn of the US screw even though we may not be sure right now if the US has at last decided to see the white light or not. There is absolutely no way Pakistan, if it survives the upcoming deluge somehow, would have a normal relationship with us as befits any two neighboring countries. If there is more confrontation with the US, Pakistan would try to up the terrorism ante against us. But, we will have to brace for such pain but work towards dismantling Pakistan. I hope that our MEA is carefully working towards that goal.

SSridhar Garu, may the tightening of screws on pakhanastan start in all earnest like sagar manthan and India being the neelkanth will have to drink(involuntarily) the halahal emanating (in form of puki terrorism) from this for the greater good of the whole world...

[Baikul]

Lookie, lookie, some interesting names tumbling out. I guess everybody likes "some luxury" and a free business class ticket to the US of A.

You'd be surprised how easily and even cheaply some journo 'names' can be influenced. However, I am not a proponent of the theory that these journalists are deshdrohis or outright corrupt or part of a conspiracy, more that they are pompous and useful idiots who thought they could have a good time on the cheap

What a lame excuse from a former editor of TOI. "Several years back" there were no Google searches? Seesh!

Lame indeed. But the days when one expected higher standards from a current or former editor of TOI are long gone. Think decades.

What is important is that they should never be allowed to forget this; it is a great stick with which to beat the useful idiots (FWIW).

[svinayak]

Rahul Baba claims "he understands terrorism very well. BJP is the one who released Masood Azhar who then went on to plan Mumbai attacks"

Does that Moron even know who have been charge sheeted and accused of Mumbai attacks and who have not? Masood Azhar does not find the slightest mention vis-a-vis 26/11. With netas like these....
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/i-und ... bjp-121112

Now national security is partisan politics and used for national politics of India ignoring the lost lives of thousands of people.

[Shaashtanga]

On Najam Sethi's latest Apas Kit Baat episode, some puki mango apdul called into say that whenever Hillary Clinton visits India, the anti-pak rhetoric increases, to that Sethi responded with a tight slap that "we are not in the same league as India, we have transactional (whoring type ) relationship with Khan and India has strategic relationship with Khan where India is spending its own hard earned cash to buy weapons & other materials from NSG and is not dependent on anyone like we are"

Najam Sethi tore Paki H&D into bits... wonder how he get away with talking all this in Pakeeland!!! I thought he will tone down his rhetoric after SSS, nope. wonder what he telling about FAIgate!!!

Shrini saar, i watch each and every episode of hajam sethi's show but he hasn't discussed anything worth mentioning here bout Fai, nor has he discussed anything about bredator drone strikes causing brain tumor in FATA etc which is being earnestly highlighted by another show that i regular watch i.e. Bolta Pakistan (hosted by Mustaq Minhas & Nusrat Javed), even those 2 anchors were very vocal against Army & ISI after OBL / PNSM / SSS but they also keep raising these Fai & predator strikes causing brain tumor theories... . I think Hajam nowadays is towing very cautiously the American line... I too am surprised how he can get away with being so anti-pakee or rather truth telling aina showing after SSS murder... may he live till balkanization of Bakistan to keep us updated on the Puki perspective on their own demise..

[CRamS]

Just like the US media finds something of note to keep the 24-hour Dems Vs Reps news cycle entertaining (latest being Michelle Bachman's migraine headaches), we on BR also get some new tit-bit, latest being Fai, to keep us focused on TSP .

[Y I Patel]

ramana,

BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

May I suggest that somnath is a valuable contributor to this forum, and should be given latitude to express his opinions? I know his posts do not sit well with a lot of members, but I have found them to be useful counters to group think that sometimes prevails on BRF.

I find the view that he has lost his moral compass to be rather harsh - if anything, he has maintained a fairly consistent liberal position, and if on occassion some of his posts are loosely worded or come across as unpalatable, then tolerating them is reasonable price for having diversity of opinion. If anything, it is for other members to chill and give him an open minded hearing.

[RajeshA]

In this talk of BRF personalities, I would just like to say, that I find somnath ji to be having a very different perspective as mine, and he can perhaps also put in some effort in his social skills, but otherwise I feel as a counterpoint he makes a valuable contribution to BRF.

As far as amit ji is concerned, I have nothing but respect for the gentleman.

I believe BRF is richer due to people with different perspectives (not including the Pakis as they have neither perspectives nor prospectives). Different perspectives help us to refine our own standpoints even if they are not changed.

Just my 2 ¢.

Added later: Just saw Y I Patel's post.

[Agnimitra]

^^^ +1

[Shaashtanga]

On Najam Sethi's latest Apas Kit Baat episode, some puki mango apdul called into say that whenever Hillary Clinton visits India, the anti-pak rhetoric increases, to that Sethi responded with a tight slap that "we are not in the same league as India, we have transactional (whoring type ) relationship with Khan and India has strategic relationship with Khan where India is spending its own hard earned cash to buy weapons & other materials from NSG and is not dependent on anyone like we are".

Hajam Sethi does a good hajamat of the unwashed Abduls in Pakistan.

If Jinnah had access to such wisdom, Pakistan would not have been here in such a situation.

Rajeshji, good riddance to Jinnah that his lack of wisdom caused such accelerated downhill skiing of Pukistan down Pakahastan.... we don't want an economically strong state of 180 million fanatics on our border..... now with more and more RAPEs like Hajam Sethi start spreading the "Indians with deep pocket" eyeopeners in Pukistan and for Pukis living abroad it will start causing major khuji in the nmusharraf coz khisiyani billi can't do anything except khamba noche....this will also bode well for your Pakeezah solution where the Puki Mango Apdul realizes that marrying his daughter / sister in India is going to prove lucrative and also Shivji's theory that even balkanized Puki parts will be heavily dependent on Indian consumers (be it agri produce going from PakJab to india or Baloch gas and other natural resources being bought by Indians or Lawhori whores doing item numbers in B-grade Indian muvies coz they aren't hot enough for A-grade, for our A-grade stuff Kylie / Beyonce / Lady gaga will be vying). Nothing causes more grief to the Pakis when they see economic success of India and Indians abroad (it causes even more grief then a successful terror attack or land grab). Things are getting even worse for them where their favorite sitcoms or other widely watched american tv shows start getting Indian characters (to take care of the rich huge Indian demographic watching those shows) i.e. Weeds / 90210 / Big bang Theory to name a few.
Ye paisa bolta hai, for your viewing pleasure -

[A_Gupta]

This is from soc.culture.indian. Please note the date (thank you google!) For anyone to claim ignorance about Fai is well, hmm,...

January 10, 1994

Dear Mr.Tarnoff:

A letter dated 27 December supposedly written by President Clinton to
Mr.Ghulam Nabi Fai of the Kashmiri American Council has come to our
attention. This letter, a faxed copy of which is enclosed, is being
widely circulated by Mr.Fai and is causing concern.

Perhaps you know that Mr.Ghulam Nabi Fai is a paid lobbyist of
the Kashmiri American Council, a front organization of forces that are
involved in funding and promoting militancy and terrorism in Kashmir.
Mr.Fai's business is to publicly malign India in all possible forums and
promote division and secessionism in India.

It is disconcerting to see that an individual who is in the forefront
of the campaign for dismembering India should seemingly receive recognition
and encouragement from the highest political authority in the U.S.

Keeping in mind the public statement of this paid lobbyist
challenging India's territorial integrity and demanding Kashmir not
be part of India, any suggestion that the US President appreciates
the lobbyist's "input" and "looks forward to working with him" is
liable to serious misinterpretation.

The timing of the letter is also a matter of concern. The
bilateral dialogue between India and Pakistan is at a delicate stage and
for it to be productive a great deal of quiet and patient diplomacy
would be required. Therefore, every attempt should be made to ensure
that the atmosphere for the foreign Secretary level talks should not be
vitiated in any way. The talks, according to my Government, are very
important and must be seriously pursued.

I am happy although the Press Trust of India put out a report
on this letter and reporters questioned our officials in Delhi
concerning it, our official spokesman gave a mature and sober reply as
you see from the annexed copy of the wire we received.

I hope the matter will rest here and will not develop any
further momentum. But should it do so, any help from you to contain it
would be welcome.

I tried to contact you over the phone but you were not
immediately available. Hence this letter.

Signed,

Siddhartha Shankar Ray
Ambassador

CC: Mr.Peter Tarnoff
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs,
U.S Department of State,
Washington D.C

The context for the letter above was

Date: Jan 6, 1994
Subject: Clinton concerned over Kashmir; offers to help
WASHINGTON (UPI) -- U.S. President Bill Clinton indicated recently in
a letter to a noted Kashmiri-American leader that he is troubled by
Indian human rights abuse in the disputed northern region of the
subcontinent.

And in the Dec. 27 letter, which was made available to United Press
International Thursday, Clinton offered to work with India and Pakistan
in finding a solution to the territorial disagreement.

``I share your belief that in order to face the dilemmas of a post-
Cold War global landscape, we all must look closely at our policies with
regard to human rights,'' Clinton wrote in the letter to Ghulam Nabi
Fai, executive director of the Washington-based Kashmiri-American
Council.

``I am confident that we can bring about changes that are consistent
with what the U.N. founders envisioned. I look forward to working with
you and others to help bring peace to Kashmir.''

The president's correspondence came in response to an earlier letter
to Clinton in which Fai criticized what he characterized as human rights
abuse by Indian security forces in the once-idyllic valley along the
Pakistani frontier.

``The Kashmiri people have suffered long and needlessly because of
this brutal conflict,'' Fai said in his letter to Clinton, which was
also made available to UPI. ``The unresolved conflict continues, with
border skirmishes and unremitting violations of human rights.''
Numerous international human rights groups and the State Department
have accused Indian troops of such abuse of Kashmiris as killing, rape,
torture and unlawful detention in New Delhi's effort to quash a
separatist rebellion.

The State Department has also criticized Pakistan for supplying
weapons and training to Kashmiri militants, who are alleged to have
engaged in assassinations and kidnappings.

Narupama Rao, a spokeswoman for the Indian embassy in Washington, was
unavailable for comment.

[chandrabhan]

A truly innocent WKK wll say:
I didn't know Fai was ISI backed and am sorry to have associated with him. In future will make sure who is who before associating with them.
Galleon investors are money related. Fai caper is national security realted. A world of difference.
Please keep perspective and don't keep backing bad people

I am not defending or "backing" anyone, just providing a perspective of what these Track II jamborees mean - having been personal acquientances of people who are/have been regulars..

About what people who attended Fai's seminars should do, I agree..Dileep Padgaonkar has already said something similar..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/padga ... s/820304/0

In hindsight, I agree that if I had the slightest idea about who he actually was, I would never have agreed to go to the US for his conference,” Padgaonkar told The Indian Express.

BTW, if there is "guilt by association", then the severity of the guilt itself is a different question - which was my limited point..

That is such a dishonest statement from Dilip Padgaonkar. Lying Rat he is. The worthy newspaper he was editing for many years - TOI-let was printing stories on this FAI in mid 90's and his dubious links. Did he never read what TOI was printing?
Lier. Now that he is caught pants down. What makes MMS & Veshti, who knew of his dubious association with KAC and Fai and still put him an interlocutor. It's a huge spanner that has been put by Amir khan in these guys plans and accepted path for Cashmere.

Apology admins but i want to use some swear words. Here on this forum there are people who are holding candle for liers. I have no problem with people going and putting India's point of view (unaware of ISI funding). GOI even warned one of these worthies of ISI association but he still went.
B@@@turds

[Stan_Savljevic]

Ghulam Nabi Fai is a regd Republican Party member, and most of his contributions were to Democrats.

[Cosmo_R]

ramana,

BTW I note Somnath and you to lesser extent have lost the moral compass on national security. I would like to ask both of you to reconsider your membership in this forum. The reason is your posts of your thoughts is leading to outrage and unnecessary agitation of other members including admins. So its tantamount to at least candle flame baiting if not a blow torch.

May I suggest that somnath is a valuable contributor to this forum, and should be given latitude to express his opinions? I know his posts do not sit well with a lot of members, but I have found them to be useful counters to group think that sometimes prevails on BRF.

Absolutely +1. Group think makes us not so different than you know who

[svinayak]

The activities of Fai and his organisation came under the category of secret and undeclared activities of the ISI in US territory. In return for the Pakistan government closing its eyes to the secret and undeclared activities of US intelligence in Pakistani territory, the US closed its eyes to the secret and undeclared activities of the ISI in US territory so long as those activities were directed against India and were not considered detrimental to the national security of the US.

US policy and US interest is at the top and India could never take care of its interest even with its lobby

[svinayak]

ramana,

May I suggest that somnath is a valuable contributor to this forum, and should be given latitude to express his opinions? I know his posts do not sit well with a lot of members, but I have found them to be useful counters to group think that sometimes prevails on BRF.

Absolutely +1. Group think makes us not so different than you know who

I agree with this. We need to analyse the secular groups and his posts gives us a window to that world view. This is a new world view for Bharat and we need to understand this. This world view has been spread worldwide and lot of other people think that it is the real India.

[CRamS]

A_Gupta

The letter does not say paid lobbyist for ISI, and so DileepJi can wiggle out saying that Fai is exercizing his right of free speech.

[A_Gupta]

^^^^

Mr.Ghulam Nabi Fai is a paid lobbyist of
the Kashmiri American Council, a front organization of forces that are
involved in funding and promoting militancy and terrorism in Kashmir.

Paid lobbyist? - check
Promoter of terrorism? - check

Doesn't matter if ISI is explicitly named or not. Unnamed rose still smells the same.