LCA News and Discussions

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 27 Jul 2011 06:03

indranilroy wrote:The performance parameters on the official Tejas website has been updated

It is +8g to -3.5g

That site first showed it as +8.5g to -3.5g, then it got changed to +9g, now its changed again to +8g.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Jul 2011 08:01

It will be +8g.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2011 08:42

P Chitkara wrote: Hope the MkII turns up on time.

With respect, and no insult intended to you or anyone. Giving a timeline and then sticking to it is an alien concept. Other than heavily western/Japanese influenced Indian private sector firms, and long suffereng students going for exams/interviews, sticking to a timeline is abnormal even for the majority of Indian events. No one even goes to a party that is scheduled to start at 8 PM. In a mixed group in India- only the western brainwashed recent phoren-returned people will arrive at 8PM for that party. Normal Indians start arriving at 9. The last BRF meet I had at home was from 5 PM to 10 PM. One lurker turned up at 10-10 PM ready with material that would take 2 hours to share with all.

I used to think that this (we do not stick to timelines" business is a poor excuse, but I now realize that exact timelines are alien to Indian culture. Other than your time of birth and the scheduled time of important life events like marriages. India culture does not believe in the concept of sticking to exact timelines. And when it comes to experimental/developmental projects like LCA - the timelines are merely vague indicators of the approximate year when the event is likely to occur.

Anyone who actually believes that things will be different is an NRI.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 27 Jul 2011 08:49

shiv wrote: I used to think that this (we do not stick to timelines" business is a poor excuse, but I now realize that exact timelines are alien to Indian culture. Other than your time of birth and the scheduled time of important life events like marriages. India culture does not believe in the concept of sticking to exact timelines. And when it comes to experimental/developmental projects like LCA - the timelines are merely vague indicators of the approximate year when the event is likely to occur.
Anyone who actually believes that things will be different is an NRI.

Sorry for being OT. But adding to what Shiv sir said, I too have wondered many a times too that its strange that when it comes to birth charts, muharrats of puja, vraths, marriages, engagements, tilaks etc, we are very particular about time. In fact during such times we are too particular about the exact time to perform the rites. Whereas for everything else time suddenly becomes an alien concept for us. Maybe, too much emphasis on time for important socio-religious events becomes so much a pain in the butt that we would rather forget about time unless absolutely required to do so.

My apologies for going OT.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2011 09:14

bmallick wrote:
shiv wrote: I used to think that this (we do not stick to timelines" business is a poor excuse, but I now realize that exact timelines are alien to Indian culture. Other than your time of birth and the scheduled time of important life events like marriages. India culture does not believe in the concept of sticking to exact timelines. And when it comes to experimental/developmental projects like LCA - the timelines are merely vague indicators of the approximate year when the event is likely to occur.
Anyone who actually believes that things will be different is an NRI.
Sorry for being OT. But adding to what Shiv sir said, I too have wondered many a times too that its strange that when it comes to birth charts, muharrats of puja, vraths, marriages, engagements, tilaks etc, we are very particular about time. In fact during such times we are too particular about the exact time to perform the rites. Whereas for everything else time suddenly becomes an alien concept for us. Maybe, too much emphasis on time for important socio-religious events becomes so much a pain in the butt that we would rather forget about time unless absolutely required to do so.

My apologies for going OT.

OT but astrology, timelines, Indians and LCA are not that far OT on this thread.

I do not want to digress into the exactitude or lack of it in Indian astrology. I will stop at saying that the exact time is considered necessary to plot an exact life course for a person. Can one then use astrology to plot the exact course of the LCA? Well - its simple. The LCA's timelines are related to the life-fate of all the thousands of people related to it. It was written at the time of Kota Harinarayana's birth that the LCA (he did not think of the idea) would fly under his watch. The life-fate lines of everyone happened to coincide at that point. It was written at the time of Wg Cdr. Kotiyals' birth that he would be the first to fly it. One could take the date/time of birth of these two people and check their horoscopes to see if any important events are written in their charts coinciding with the dates on which the LCA first flew. Even if such an event can be pinpointed by an astrologer, he will never be able to say exactly what that important event would be. It could even be winning a lottery or an award. Also the exact date is never clear - It would be "an auspicious period". So while the obsession is ONLY for time of birth and marriage, the time does not matter for anything else.

This morning BRF tells me that the winning MMRCA contender will be known in 4-5 weeks. I will give you a better estimate that has a 99.9% probability of being correct. The winning contender of the MMRCA deal will be known in 2 to 24 weeks time. Please get back to me in the appropriate thread if you do not know which company has won the contract by 26th January 2012.

Anyone who asks for exact dates of flight of Naval LCA or markII LCA is merely increasing his post count .

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Jul 2011 18:11

Why the value toggling between +9g and +8g? Is that reflect current achievement or the agreed FOC milestone?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jul 2011 18:38

AFAIK 8G is the limit for Mk1.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 28 Jul 2011 16:40

Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not? Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc. How did it fly at Aero India, was it with a foreign engine? Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not. Can someone pl help out?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 28 Jul 2011 17:02

^^
Please ask in the newbie/miscellaneous thread. There's a lot of information in the first post of this thread as well.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Jul 2011 19:35

kshirin wrote:Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not? Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc. How did it fly at Aero India, was it with a foreign engine? Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not. Can someone pl help out?

what were you doing for the past 5 years on BR?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2011 19:48

kshirin wrote:Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not?

Yes and no.

Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc.

Yes and no.

How did it fly at Aero India,

It appeared on the left of the runway and went very slowly. I thought it was R-day parade. Pilot thinking differently. Then it did 400% about turn and went fast fast fast and up up up - very farly, very nearly, uply, downly and roundly until landing caused by the ejection of a "phool" from its - peechey ka - you know - woh kaala kaala <sharam

>

Here is a vediyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

was it with a foreign engine?

Yes. But poor quality because touched by Indian hands.

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.

It is a fly-by-wire fighter that is ready for induction into the IAF. It has the highest proportion of composites of any other fighter. An enlarged Mark 2 is being planned. The trainer version is flying. The Navy is helping to build and test a naval version and may need 80 of them. But it is not successful because too many people are confused. Enemy is not confused. They are building short range nuke missiles and aircraft carrier killer missiles to confuse the LCA.

Can someone pl help out?

Any time. What help is needed? PAN card? Drivers' licence?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 28 Jul 2011 20:05

Rahul M wrote:AFAIK 8G is the limit for Mk1.

And there has been at least one flight flown to +8G so it won't disintegrate at +8G

vishnua · Post by **vishnua** » 29 Jul 2011 01:46

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.

The enemy also is getting new latest and greatest fighter planes man has ever seen, F-16's.

One F-16 = 10 LCA's.

Btw, the F-16's belongs to the enemy and the superpower owes them to the enemy.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 29 Jul 2011 02:25

kshirin, these kinds of questions are entertained in the newbie thread.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jul 2011 03:39

KShirin.

Do read through this document by B Harry,

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/downl ... diance.pdf

Its still very accurate wrt 90% of the Tejas program.
We take consultancy for specific points to make sure we are focusing on the right things, but at the end of the day, our effort is ours.
Please also google for "tarmak blog" and LCA FBW or LCA CLAW to get more info about our efforts.

Also, after you have read the above, ping us for more questions. Do understand, many here have been through this path before. They may not have the time or patience to respond as you prefer.

First aim though, do read through the above PDF (by a very talented human being, may he RIP) and other points

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2011 08:33

Nikhil T wrote:kshirin, these kinds of questions are entertained in the newbie thread.

But on here they are entertaining

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 29 Jul 2011 09:30

shiv wrote:
kshirin wrote:Can BR experts pl tell me whether the LCA is indigenously developed or not?
Yes and no.

Just read the CAG audit report, which shows cost over runs and delays over the Kaveri engine, and final lurch towards SNECMA after rejecting their 2001 offer for collaboration. But have we mastered the other technologies, airframe etc.
Yes and no.

How did it fly at Aero India,
It appeared on the left of the runway and went very slowly. I thought it was R-day parade. Pilot thinking differently. Then it did 400% about turn and went fast fast fast and up up up - very farly, very nearly, uply, downly and roundly until landing caused by the ejection of a "phool" from its - peechey ka - you know - woh kaala kaala <sharam >

Here is a vediyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkM0ZHMv7Gk

was it with a foreign engine?

Yes. But poor quality because touched by Indian hands.

Very confused because media is saying we have been successful, and Govt audit report says not.
It is a fly-by-wire fighter that is ready for induction into the IAF. It has the highest proportion of composites of any other fighter. An enlarged Mark 2 is being planned. The trainer version is flying. The Navy is helping to build and test a naval version and may need 80 of them. But it is not successful because too many people are confused. Enemy is not confused. They are building short range nuke missiles and aircraft carrier killer missiles to confuse the LCA.

Can someone pl help out?
Any time. What help is needed? PAN card? Drivers' licence?

Welcome back Shiv.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 29 Jul 2011 09:48

Lol, thanks for the helpful information and leg pulling, yes i had put BR on hold for a while but as the best source of information on issues I know little about I turned to it when in need, heard about that one?
I will go through all the resources, thanks. We should have a serious debate on indigenisation of technology and a page devoted to that. Now have I put my foot in my mouth again? The more i go through Govt audit reports, the less sanguine I get about any serious effort in that direction. Organisations like G Fast are experimenting though. We need a total revamp of management culture in Govt run labs.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Jul 2011 15:00

Shiv,

You are wrong on one count. Tejas was inducted in the IAF when it reached IOC. Tejas will be battle worthy when it reaches its FOC. It is not yet battle worthy as the IAF is just developing tactics and doctrine regarding its use.

It will be fun to watch the reaction of the TSPAF when it reaches FOC.

Running away shouting Pasupatastra is comming.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 29 Jul 2011 15:41

CAG ?

the whole CAG department is bunch of super genious accountants, CA etc. they are very good at numbers.
they can't think beyond numbers. ( they are the ones who came up with magic number 170000 crores for 2G scam. they didnt even bother to check if decison was made delibrately to keep your call costs down. they are the one who questioned the funding of LCA came up with magic numbers more than 20 years of funding. yada yada .. )
see you can't blame him or his department. they don't understand engineering or for that matter any national security matters.
thanks to secrets act. otherwise they would have come up with xxxxxxxxxxx amount was wasted due to budha was smiling again.
(lahori logic of another order)
on a serious note. the problem lies in proper laid out rules. the CAG's job is to see the revenue collected is used for the intended pupose and their balance sheet is well balanced. defence research is a tricky one. we need someone to quantify it.
eg.) the spin off of LCA research was quantified in terms of money (some how CAG guys missed the memo)
once you quantify; CAG can do their + - calculations and have no issues with it.
now how would you quantify. say take example of software developed for LCA Autolay. can be used for other aircrafts development also. they could sell it to biggies in west too..
or say the research done in avionics of lca was used in rambha.

so now CAG can be satified by saying. eg. 3000 crores spent , gained 500 crores in terms of avionics tech and reused in rambha. 200 crores gained in composites so total spent on LCA goes down to 2300.. amortised in 20 years ( so we are in less loss so we at CAG are not having problem.)

ok this was lay mans way of explanation. gurus having flair in writing .. can paraphrase.

i need to log out before my boss kicks me out..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2011 15:52

chiragAS wrote:CAG ?
the whole CAG department is bunch of super genious accountants, CA etc. they are very good at numbers.
they can't think beyond numbers. ( they are the ones who came up with magic number 170000 crores for 2G scam. they didnt even bother to check if decison was made delibrately to keep your call costs down. they are the one who questioned the funding of LCA came up with magic numbers more than 20 years of funding. yada yada .. )
see you can't blame him or his department. they don't understand engineering or for that matter any national security matters.
thanks to secrets act. otherwise they would have come up with xxxxxxxxxxx amount was wasted due to budha was smiling again.
(lahori logic of another order)
on a serious note. the problem lies in proper laid out rules. the CAG's job is to see the revenue collected is used for the intended pupose and their balance sheet is well balanced. defence research is a tricky one. we need someone to quantify it.
eg.) the spin off of LCA research was quantified in terms of money (some how CAG guys missed the memo)
once you quantify; CAG can do their + - calculations and have no issues with it.
now how would you quantify. say take example of software developed for LCA Autolay. can be used for other aircrafts development also. they could sell it to biggies in west too..
or say the research done in avionics of lca was used in rambha.

so now CAG can be satified by saying. eg. 3000 crores spent , gained 500 crores in terms of avionics tech and reused in rambha. 200 crores gained in composites so total spent on LCA goes down to 2300.. amortised in 20 years ( so we are in less loss so we at CAG are not having problem.)

ok this was lay mans way of explanation. gurus having flair in writing .. can paraphrase.

i need to log out before my boss kicks me out..

Please Check CAG has its seperate Recruitment exams(Government), not CA's. CA firms are used by CAG for PSU audits.

And why bring 2G into this and implying that 2G was done to keep costs down and no DMK , COngress , Babu or Businessman made any money- are you kidding? then explain how does a lawyer like Santosh Hedge know what is the loss from Mining??

Nice Rant against that CA's dont understand national security issues, Yes CAG has bean counters and DDM also plays its part. Why a general Rant against accountants eh?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 29 Jul 2011 16:37

chiragAS wrote:CAG ?
the whole CAG department is bunch of super genious accountants, CA etc. they are very good at numbers.
they can't think beyond numbers.

No sir, CA's are not working with CAG. Pay-grade is not good enough. Also we CA's don't just think about the numbers, We have to think a lot beyond than and present our findings in numbers. Because genius Engineers, Doctors, Investors,etc can't understand accounting languages but when you put a number on it than they tend to get a general idea. Its like describing a hot chick to your friend, not matter how good you describe it using literature they won't understand but if you just say "8/10" they tend to understand quickly. (No offense indented at any other profession and "Hot Chicks"

)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Jul 2011 17:04

people, there are are at least 2-3 threads on defence R&D, corruption etc. do you really have to derail the LCA thread ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2011 17:23

Rahul M wrote:people, there are are at least 2-3 threads on defence R&D, corruption etc. do you really have to derail the LCA thread ?

Well we have thank Chirag AS for that. I will not respond to any such posts after this.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 30 Jul 2011 12:17

rahulji sorry for going OT.

Others please read later i have mentioned later on ..starting " on a serious note"
and nopes i never said nobody made corruption. corruption took place. but this whole concept of arriving at numbers is what is wrong. 170000 crores etc.
and i am not blaming(atleast my intention was not) CAs or even CAG for that matter they are doing their job well. i was blaming the system for not quantifying R&D results properly in terms of money.....(sorry for even joking/ranting on CAG at the start before putting the serious issue)
but yeah right this is not a right place to to discuss this issue. i was trying to tell kshirin too take CAG report with a pinch of salt.

once again appologies for bringing in my 2 cents in the wrong thread

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 30 Jul 2011 13:35

Pratik_S wrote:
chiragAS wrote:CAG ?
the whole CAG department is bunch of super genious accountants, CA etc. they are very good at numbers.
they can't think beyond numbers.
No sir, CA's are not working with CAG. Pay-grade is not good enough. Also we CA's don't just think about the numbers, We have to think a lot beyond than and present our findings in numbers. Because genius Engineers, Doctors, Investors,etc can't understand accounting languages but when you put a number on it than they tend to get a general idea. Its like describing a hot chick to your friend, not matter how good you describe it using literature they won't understand but if you just say "8/10" they tend to understand quickly. (No offense indented at any other profession and "Hot Chicks" )

Being a CA myself,,totally in agreement,,,,sorry for being OT,,...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Aug 2011 01:08

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1662 Test Flights successfully. (27-Jul-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-288,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-33)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1659 Test Flights successfully(13-Jul-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-287,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-31)

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Aug 2011 09:43

LEt us see August has come now, whether we get LSP7 to fly in August or it is going to go the way Shivguru predicted is to be seen. News on lsp6 went missing altogether

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Aug 2011 12:17

Forget any and all date related announcements from ADA. Not worth spending effort to even think about this. They are on complete IST as far as announced schedules go.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Aug 2011 12:53

^^^ hoping against reality, awaiting the day when the chief says lcamk1 is fully capable

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 02 Aug 2011 14:46

TOILET paper screams "MiG-21 crashes near Bikaner, pilot killed" - RIP

shows Tejas instead

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 02 Aug 2011 22:21

IAF ordered 40 Tejas Mk-I aircraft: Antony

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 03 Aug 2011 16:00

Thanks for the helpful comments. My worry is, apart from the issue of credibility of CAG, thank God we have an auditor who can point out lapses in transparency, even if the process is flawed, for eg. I agree it is important to ensure that carping small mindedness does not get in the way of visionary projects, look at China, they build a factory floor for the 21st century not for one machine tool, my worry is - how can we produce the end equipment - a plane in this instance - if we haven't honed the high tech production network. Is it not why our import content is 90%? Should we not be starting from a bottoms up approach? In which thread should I be discussing this?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Aug 2011 16:53

we are not alone in dhoti shivers against china, in every aspect of living and learning.. from bringing back phds to china into nano technology, and space science to J20, bullet trains and what not.

china has already making masans sh!t in their pants, from infrastructure, defense, manufacturing and advanced and hightech engineering.

now, we can continue to shiver or just give a slap to ourselves, and focus on the correction path first, and plug all loop holes from constitution to ways of living.

/OT

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 03 Aug 2011 21:32

kshirin wrote:Thanks for the helpful comments. My worry is, apart from the issue of credibility of CAG, thank God we have an auditor who can point out lapses in transparency, even if the process is flawed, for eg. I agree it is important to ensure that carping small mindedness does not get in the way of visionary projects, look at China, they build a factory floor for the 21st century not for one machine tool, my worry is - how can we produce the end equipment - a plane in this instance - if we haven't honed the high tech production network. Is it not why our import content is 90%? Should we not be starting from a bottoms up approach? In which thread should I be discussing this?

This one: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3400

AdityaEngineer · Post by **AdityaEngineer** » 04 Aug 2011 18:48

Well i had myself had a chat with a HAL Engineer from Nashik Division And he was of the opinion that Tejas cannot really be mass manufactured under the present manufacturing practices and technology.And i hope this trend can be changed.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 04 Aug 2011 21:52

AdityaEngineer wrote:Well i had myself had a chat with a HAL Engineer from Nashik Division And he was of the opinion that Tejas cannot really be mass manufactured under the present manufacturing practices and technology.And i hope this trend can be changed.

Did he give a reason as to why in his opinion LCA cannot be mass manufactured?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Aug 2011 00:00

Just my guess, but the fact that the Tejas has been built in a very customized way to date may be what that gentleman may have been referring to. HAL will need to set up an automated tape laying machine in place of the manual tape-laying that we've seen so far on all the prototypes. Without that, each wing skin requires a lot of time and skill in building. Much higher chances of rejection of these skins due to minor faults when laying them out will be eliminated this way.

They must also look to outsource the composite panels, fairings construction to TAAL or TAML.

TAML has a good setup for advanced composites manufacturing and they'd be delighted to put it to full use or expand it based on orders that HAL may give them. It only makes sense to utilise this infrastructure that already exists in India. Otherwise, excuses about not being able to scale up from custom manufacturing to mass production really doesn't wash and HAL has to be held accountable.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 05 Aug 2011 00:11

Have HMT or praga tools developed any machine tools to solve this problem, IIRC they have not been involved in this project.

AdityaEngineer · Post by **AdityaEngineer** » 05 Aug 2011 08:38

@rajkumar Although this is my Opinion his might be same as well-That manuf. Prac. Need to shift gears when transferring product from TD stage to SP stage.@Kartik The tapes you are talking about are for NC machines while it is time to shift to faster CNC component manu. unit and assembling.Warm Regards!