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Now, as for Indian soldiers killed in Kupwara and the news of their beheading - if this news is true, rest assured, this is not going to go unpunished. And from whatever little I know, there are enough precendences for it. And to use the words of ex-ACM PV Naik, the response is going to be extremely violent and disproportionate.Just watch out of news of retaliation to unprovoked firing by TSPA. Only thing is, it will not come on Times Now or NDTV for jingoes to do lungi dance. But their time will come. Beleive you me, those pakees are marked men.
+111 Rohit.
I, for one, know that our bravehearts will hit back. Cold and calculating. But it will definitely not make it to the news. We have done it before and will do it again!
At that time, 6-7 jawans/officers laying down their lives everyday in J&K was just a footnote in most Indian newspapers.
Actually, now it seems to be the reverse with daily news reports of 2-3 LeT/HuM/xxx Paki group commanders meeting their 72 after being ruthlessly hunted down.
Pardon me if I sound rude, but both statements are wrong. Although Indian causalities have indeed gone down, but they were never as high as CRamS posted. AFAIK, fencing and related high tech surveillance equipment has plugged most of infiltration routes, thereby reducing the number of terrorists that could cross the border and operate in Indian territory. Number of terrorists killed in encounters inside India has also gone down due to the same reason. Nowadays , except for a few most encounters happen on LoC, where it's easier for terrorists to cut their losses and run back to Pakistan.
Some of my thoughts on this comparing of USA/PRC vs India sucking up to Pakistan:
1) US Military has a far bigger voice in American politics. No American President can be voted in, if people think he is will be soft on terror, on defense of America, and if he doesn't have an endorsement from at least a few popular retired Generals. Indian politicians on the other hand, do not allow military anywhere near politics, and the effort is to keep them down and away, even after retirement.
2) Republican Administration feel much more comfortable with the US Military, then Democrats do. Usually Democratic Presidents want to clip the wings of the US Military, and keep a firm grip on security policy. Where are the retired generals in INC? Even as BJP took over, our defense minister was George Fernandes.
3) India is a neighbor of Pakistan, with both blood ties and and ideological enmity having deep roots, unlike USA sitting on the other side of the globe, giving USA more leeway in its policies towards Pakistan.
4) A policy U-Turn takes time, and so too would it in case of Pakistan, from ally of USA to a security threat to USA. The evolution of India's Pakistan Policy too has taken time - from less Dhimmi to more Dhimmi!
5) USA has budget deficits, and still a long list of military targets - Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, NoKo, and somewhere at the end, also comes Pakistan. Right now, Americans are sitting in Afghanistan as hostages, and as such Pakistani perfidy is biting them, so there is some discomfort with Pakistan. If Americans were out of Afghanistan, and if Americans had finished off a few top terrorists - Zawahiri, Haqqanis, etc. why would America still be pissed off at Pakistan? Pakistan is then becomes less interesting - both as ally but also as foe, unless their global terror does not die down! India too has to think about the threat of China when dealing with the threat from Pakistan, but Pakistan still needs to be taken down first, as Pakistan is also China's paw! So it should remain India's primary focus to be dealt with in the short term. USA may not see the situation in a similar way!
I, for one, know that our bravehearts will hit back. Cold and calculating. But it will definitely not make it to the news. We have done it before and will do it again!
That would be strange...how is that our boys cull Pakbaric sewer rats and yet it stays out of news papers? Wouldn't it be like peeing in a dark suit, you get warm feeling but no one knows?
I have no doubt that IA can hit back and hit back disproportionately too. But, that needs concurrence from the political class. I am doubtful if the present dispensation would approve such operations.
Also, doing it covertly would send appropriate message to the appropriate people, no doubt. However, there is nothing like that news being reported too for two reasons. One, Indian citizens must also know that we are exacting revenge for such horrendous crimes. Of course, we are never going to say that such and such an incident was a revenge for the Kupwara beheading or Kaluchak attacks etc. But, some deaths must take place due to IA action and leave it to interpretations by Indians. Like how Karachi used to burn in the 90s. Two, Pakistanis must also know (through our media even if Pakistani media keeps quiet) that their invincible Army is suffering too at the hands of the kufr.
I, for one, know that our bravehearts will hit back. Cold and calculating. But it will definitely not make it to the news. We have done it before and will do it again!
That would be strange...how is that our boys cull Pakbaric sewer rats and yet it stays out of news papers? Wouldn't it be like peeing in a dark suit, you get warm feeling but no one knows?
It stays out of news because it should. We also do not want muslim population develop hatred towards Indian government. It is a dont ask dont tell policy our government follows with our military. They dont let the details to the public unless it cannot be helped and government does not ask for details of who and how many got killed. We do not want A'roy types screaming the culling of pakis in Kashmir and have a kamasutra embrace of hers with Pakis in public.
MIRANSHAH: A bomb attack on Monday wounded at least 10 Pakistani soldiers in the Taliban and Al-Qaeda hotspot of Waziristan on the Afghan border, officials said.
The device was detonated by remote control as a military vehicle passed through the Sararogha village area in the mountains of South Waziristan.
“At least 10 soldiers were wounded, three of them seriously,” a security official told AFP.
^^ At times it is done absolutely covertly. Keeping the politicos at arms length. Plausible deniability.
Recently, AKA had passed a muzzle order on the chiefs, but that didn't stop our response of "a violent retaliation". For which there was public mention of his displeasure. Anyone got hurt? No.
If it is circulated in the media, then Paki H&D is involved and it complicates matters. As long as the other side understands the cost of their misadventures and if they refuse to, is their problem.
India's ploy has always been to let the TSPA keep fondling their favourite equation - 1TSPA = 10 Kaffirs. It has served us well in '65 and '71
Last edited by rajanb on 08 Aug 2011 14:01, edited 1 time in total.
It is a widely-acknowledged fact that while successive Pakistani governments have been running disgracefully with a deep begging bowl in hand since the country’s inception, India’s total donation budget between 2004 and 2010 alone stands at around Rs 597 billion (over 312 billion Indian rupees).
Numbers collected from sources like the IMF and World Bank show that India’s per capita GDP (PPP) is $3,339 billion, its exports rest at $ 201 billion, imports stand at $ 327 billion, Gross external debt is $ 237.1 billion, total Foreign Direct Investment is $ 35.6 billion, revenues total $ 170.7 billion, expenses are $ 257.4 billion and the country’s FOREX reserves are calculated at $ 310 billion.
On the contrary, Pakistani economy’s far more dismal numbers might make many Pakistanis bow their head in utter disdain, if not shame. Pakistan’s economy is the 47th largest in terms of nominal GDP and the 25th biggest vis a vis the Purchasing Power Parity numbers.
Its per capita GDP (PPP) is $ 464 billion, its exports stand at $ 24 billion, imports rest at around $ 29 billion, labour force is 56 million, net external debt is nearly $ 60 billion, revenues are touching the $ 23.21 billion mark, expenses are hovering over $ 30 billion and the FOREX reserves are calculated at approximately $ 17 billion.
From the above, what startled me was the following:
Pakistan, like any other state on the world’s map, is an accident of history, determined by forces and events that had little to do with a poet dreaming a millennial dream about Muslims. Pakistan was not founded in the name of Islam or religion.The surest test for this is if we substitute Buddhist for Muslim in the equation, it would have made little difference.{Huh ? Then, why not substitute Hindu and remained within a united India ? Ahh. . .I see the problem is that the Hindus were a large majority, 60% as the author says to the 30% of the Muslims while the Buddhists were a mere 2%. Besides, the Muslims had ruled the Hindus for 800 years and the British could not hand power to the ruled class, right ? Hold on, did not Jinnah claim that "We are a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of value and proportions, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and tradition, aptitudes and ambitions, in short we have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life. By all canons of International Law we are a nation" ? Wasn't he referring to Muslims whenever he mentioned 'We' ? Wasn't he referring to the Koran, Shariah and the Hadith when he mentioned 'legal laws, moral codes, customs and calendar ?}
. . . it would have been disastrous for both India and Pakistan had India stayed together in any form. For India, it would have meant perpetual constitutional and political conflict between 60 percent Hindus and 30 percent Muslims and between Hindu-majority and Muslim-majority provinces. The success that India has had in creating a secular democracy has been largely because it has manageable Muslim numbers, hence Nehru and Patel’s insistence on partition.
Dawn has learnt the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) is probing how could the Capital Development Authority (CDA) allow “unlimited number of storeys” to a hotel-apartment complex coming up near the Convention Centre.
Kanishka wrote:What is astonishing is that how shamelessly and easily Pakis use Allah to justify their pathetic existence.
It is almost as if Allah/God is indebted to the Pakis and without the pakis, Allah is helpless.
It appears to me that Allah needs Pakis more than Pakis need Allah.
But this is just how they will play it. Dont you see? They are preparing the narrative for the future. They know Pakistan is going to fail/disintegrate. Its not a matter of "if" but "when" and "how soon". By building this narrative, they will then play the next round: "The world, specifically the YYYs, managed to bring down the the protector of Islam, the corner-stone of the Ummah. Now all muslims live in peril. So rally around and we shall fight the crusaders and their supporters, the Yehudis and Yindus". Do you see how successful this narrative can be to the madarassa masses of Pakistan, parts of Af, Iraq, Middle East and Africa?? They have decided to give their best shot at taking down the rest of the world down with them when they go.
Last edited by rajithn on 08 Aug 2011 15:50, edited 1 time in total.
From the above, what startled me was the following:
Pakistan, like any other state on the world’s map, is an accident of history, determined by forces and events that had little to do with a poet dreaming a millennial dream about Muslims. Pakistan was not founded in the name of Islam or religion.
Yeah I know I know. I can empathise with that. I was not born a rapist and a murderer. I just became that way soon after I was born. I was always taught that the way of life of my ancestors was rape and murder. The surest test is to substitute the Islamic in Islamic republic of Pakistan with "Rapist Murdering republic of Pakistan and it will make no difference. All same same onlee
At that time, 6-7 jawans/officers laying down their lives everyday in J&K was just a footnote in most Indian newspapers.
Actually, now it seems to be the reverse with daily news reports of 2-3 LeT/HuM/xxx Paki group commanders meeting their 72 after being ruthlessly hunted down.
The ratios was always about 1:5, so even in the heyday of Cashmere jeehard, if 5 security personales were killed then about 25 LeT/HuM/xxx Paki met their 72.
Poor Allah! He must be tearing the hair out of his beard at the antics of his tribe in Pak,plus where is he getting the inexhaustible supply of virgins to keep his end of the bargain,as the ungodly seem to be in such indecent haste to satisfy their lust and longing for the promised "72" ?!
As for poor Iqbal's lament,was he not allowed several wives,4 in fact,plus the fact that the Talibs are supposed to be allowed 7,to pleasure themselves deliciously,while the poor infidels-Christians in particular, had to give up polygamy,were allowed no concubines too and could only be wedded to one!
What new news about the leak that the Yanquis have secret plans to pluck Pak's nukes if they feel that they are in danger from any of the numerous ungodly tribes that lust after them? The supoposed "war" between the ISI and the US's special forces is great entertainment for us.We wait with bated breath to see the latest drone strike and the inevitable act of revenge upon the protector of Pak.
But this is just how they will play it. Dont you see? They are preparing the narrative for the future. They know Pakistan is going to fail/disintegrate. Its not a matter of "if" but "when" and "how soon". By building this narrative, they will then play the next round: "The world, specifically the YYYs, managed to bring down the the protector of Islam, the corner-stone of the Ummah. Now all muslims live in peril. So rally around and we shall fight the crusaders and their supporters, the Yehudis and Yindus". Do you see how successful this narrative can be to the madarassa masses of Pakistan, parts of Af, Iraq, Middle East and Africa?? They have decided to give their best shot at taking down the rest of the world down with them when they go.
this kinda scared me. when tsp gets taken over by fundoos, the islamic bomb nation will become
shiv wrote:No Anup. It's not in good taste. It ranks along with the other joke I head in the UK on the day of the Challenger Shuttle disaster. What does NASA stand for? "Need Another Seven Astronauts"
But I deliberately made that poor joke here because when I ignore or consider as irrelevant all the Indian deaths that have been caused by Pakistani terrorism, I can then begin to appreciate America's greatness in defeating the evil Soviet empire and weaning away China from the clutches of that Soviet empire. Indian misery and deaths were a small price to pay for the greater goals of freedom and democracy. I should joke about them to understand what being a "Great Power" means.
There is another reason for drawing attention to the deaths of Seals on this thread. I think Pakistan is involved and not drawing attention to that on this thread is like pseudosecularism.
shiv wrote:
So the jernails/establishment had the best of both worlds. The Americans thought they were allies, "good guys, fun people, whom you can deal with" while mango Pakis thought that these were leaders of Islam who were being forced to behave and dress like Kafirs to do Taqiyya and reach Hudaibiya like relationships with Kafirs while Islam was actually being protected.
There are also a huge similarities in how Americans and Pakistanis think.
Americans used the greed to lure more money of Average Joe into the stock markets so that it can be swindled by wealthy 1% when markets collapsed.(Put Options!)
The CDS (Credit Default Swaps) made sure that as more Americans defaulted on their home loans, the Insurance companies made more money. The CEO's and their board of directors walked away from the collapse with bonuses in billions of dollars. The Average Joe is delinquent and needs help to have his food and shelter.Exactly what is happening in US.
Pakistanis on the other hand used the greed of Average Abdul to have 72 virgin girls fondling him at his disposal. Here too the top 1% became rich and controlled the rest 99%.If Pakistan collapses like any other entity the CEO's and the board of directors(the Generals) will walk away with billions in their bank accounts. The abdul will be dead here and has no food or shelter.
Folks,
I have a suggestion regarding the use of "YYY" term for conspiracy. Instead I propose using "ISI - India States Israel". Can you imagine the confusion it would sow if every issue or event in P-land is associated with “ISI” conspiracy. Pool ad-buls wont know what or who hit them, was it our ISI or their ISI!!!.
A man, who was wearing a burqa when he was arrested last month in Pakistan's Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, is a Chinese national, a media report said.
The 27-year-old man, arrested in Bannu district last month, has been identified as Chinese national Muhammad Yousuf, Dawn reported Monday.
It was initially thought that he was a Turkish national. Sources said that during interrogation it came to light that he was a Chinese national, who uses the 'codename' of Muhammad Ali.
The media report said that Yousuf is said to be a resident of Beijing. Around $50,000, Chinese Yuan and Islamic literature were found in his possession.
Sources said Yousuf was reportedly wearing a burqa when he was taken into custody at a bus stand and he was heading towards Miranshah, the headquarters of North Waziristan region.
It was initially thought that he was a Turkish national. Sources said that during interrogation it came to light that he was a Chinese national, who uses the 'codename' of Muhammad Ali.
The Al-Qaida 'Triple Agent' Who Infiltrated The CIA
"This was something that had never happened in the history of the CIA," says Warrick. "There's been hundreds of agents of all kinds — some have been liars and frauds, many disappointments — but no one had ever tried to infiltrate the CIA to blow himself up and kill a bunch of officers. And for that reason, no one really saw this coming. No one thought that he might try to do this."
'
here we are thinking that only the SD and WH/POTUS staff types buy in to this type of gullibility and the CIA is very smart and knows the Pakis and is wise to these kinds of tricks..
rajpa wrote:this kinda scared me. when tsp gets taken over by fundoos, the islamic bomb nation will become
A NUCLEAR SUICIDE BOMBER nation
in the hopes of getting 180 million * 72 houris.
But it should. It scares me as it does many others.
And it is already a nuke suicide bomber nation. Has been since the late 80s. And the fundoos are already in charge. There is no constituency within Pak today that wants peace. They are setting themselves up to become the "martyr nation" that laid down its life for the cause!
My only thought is: why dont we speed it up and end it for them now rather than have them waffle around and infect others?
The Al-Qaida 'Triple Agent' Who Infiltrated The CIA
here we are thinking that only the SD and WH/POTUS staff types buy in to this type of gullibility and the CIA is very smart and knows the Pakis and is wise to these kinds of tricks..
I remember this one. It was height of stupidity . The defector was supposed to be some high profile guy. These morons organised a party complete with a cake . He walked in and blew everyone . I often wonder who was more idiotic. Gujral or these chaps. Apparently all kufrs are like this onlee.
gakakkad wrote:I remember this one. It was height of stupidity . The defector was supposed to be some high profile guy. These morons organised a party complete with a cake . He walked in and blew everyone . I often wonder who was more idiotic. Gujral or these chaps. Apparently all kufrs are like this onlee.
Again, the trap was set up with big cheese.
1. The handler was a cousin of the King of Jordan
2. The GID was the prime conduit not the CIA
3. The guy was playing them for months
4. He came to them with intel on some of the top 3 AQ HVTs
5. Insisted he would speak only to the big honcho - the lady who was station chief, I think
6. Prize too big, moment of weakness..(they just walked him in..none of the usual security checks. nothing. the lure was that good)
REST IS HISTORY
shiv wrote:
Clearly there has been a massive intelligence failure for the US. Losing 22 special forces men is not a minor loss. But compared with the stupidity and callousness the US has shown in pushing Pakistan over an innocent India ("Oh but the US did it in its own interest") - the loss is minor. The US is so dumb that they may not learn even if they lose their entire component of spl forces to Paki perfidy. The US is the country that lost 60,000 men in Vietnam before they figured out that they were in the wrong place, supporting the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I watched this idiocy through my boyhood. The US will still think Pakistan is a friend and an ally. To that extent they deserve what they get.
The US is as Paki as Pakistanis when it comes to making a big echandee show. They are now getting into a lungi dance with, of all countries, Pakistan, whose ass they were licking till 1 year ago. Now they will stage a revenge raid that will be posted on all media for the rah rah rah part to show up again and make the US echandee jhanda fly again. After that it will be back to the usual stupidity. How can a country that refused to see the truth for 50 years suddenly wake up in 1 year?
Someone wake me up in 3 months and tell me if I am wrong.
Keep this kind of posts coming more and more
It is the socio graphy of generation which needs to be understood. One guy tells me that America will always keep fighting and that is all his gen has seen in their lifetime
There is a lot of discussion about the US being able to take out Paki nukes.
There was a time when I hobnobbed with a few chaiwalas. So take it FWIW.
A chaiwala had told me that the Israelis had requested use of an Indian air base so that they could take down AQ Khan's then budding new clear industry. Morarjibhai, then the PM - refused.
Now for all the bravado about the US wanting to snatch Paki nukes. The central point would be to be able to disable the transmission of any codes to fire a new clear asset. And to ensure that there isn't a local "bypass" to firing new clear assets.
One way is they can demand the TSPA or a replacement civilian govt to hand over or get nuked. And that will be the way. All other covert stuff is chancy.
ramana wrote:One way is they can demand the TSPA or a replacement civilian govt to hand over or get nuked. And that will be the way. All other covert stuff is chancy.
The rhetoric must be very very high and must come from prez himself and the current president with a noble prize under his lungi cannot manage. So it is out of the table unless there is a failed nuclear incident on US. IOW the chances are very remote. India however can do it far more easily than it appears.
SSridhar wrote:I have no doubt that IA can hit back and hit back disproportionately too. But, that needs concurrence from the political class. I am doubtful if the present dispensation would approve such operations.
Hate to doubt what you say of all people, but are we so sure about this? I have gotten mixed messages on this count directly from ex military types. One retd general, now a WKK, told me during an India-bashing, Fai-type gathering that I should not make a fool of myself taking a hard-line position against TSP. If Indian army could do it, they would have done it. Better to try peace, in his view. Then on the other hand, I have heard exactly what you say from another retd general. Assuming the truth is somewhere in between, it seems to me that there is sill space for TSP to use its pigLeTs in low-intensity warfare until it forces some movrment on Kashmir from India that suit its objectives: eventual annexation of the valley. Massive reduction in troop levels in the valley is one such demand from TSP, and the reasons for this are well known.
Also, doing it covertly would send appropriate message to the appropriate people, no doubt. However, there is nothing like that news being reported too for two reasons. One, Indian citizens must also know that we are exacting revenge for such horrendous crimes. Of course, we are never going to say that such and such an incident was a revenge for the Kupwara beheading or Kaluchak attacks etc. But, some deaths must take place due to IA action and leave it to interpretations by Indians. Like how Karachi used to burn in the 90s. Two, Pakistanis must also know (through our media even if Pakistani media keeps quiet) that their invincible Army is suffering too at the hands of the kufr.
Absolutely. But once agains, what is needed is a precise Abottabad-type Indian commando action taking out Hafeez Saeed or Dawod Ibrahim. I mean a humilation like this at the hands of SDREs will sure be de-moralizing to TSPA/ISI. And unless Indian media participates in any cover up or give credence to TSP lies which will surely ensue, the taking out of such hard-core terrorists should not result in an excuse for TSP starting a nuke war. I would welcome IA covert action, but only problem with that is that ISI with its local assets in India can counter punch, and we are back to square one.
ramana wrote:One way is they can demand the TSPA or a replacement civilian govt to hand over or get nuked. And that will be the way. All other covert stuff is chancy.
First one should create a few more Bangladeshs out of Pakistan, so that the area, where the nukes are, gets further shrunk.
Sad news. Only wounded?
