Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[jagbani]

Pakistan pilot's 'remorse' for 1965 shooting down


In his email, Qais Hussain said he was sorry for the loss of precious lives during the incident and was acting under orders from his superiors. Mr Hussain was a young flying officer during the 1965 war between India and Pakistan. The eight-seater plane had apparently drifted off course along the border. The Pakistanis suspected it of being on a reconnaissance mission to open a new war front.

[Luxtor]

^^^

So next time a CIVILIAN aircraft from Pukistan drifts close to our border we can shoot it down and ask questions later? The story clearly says that the pilot of the Indian civilian aircraft indicated that he was willing to follow instructions of the fighter aircraft, i.e. he is not trying to evade/get away. The intelligent thing to do for the Pukis in the situation is to contact the civi pilot by radio and tell him to follow the fighter to a Puki air base for inspection. But then again, no one ever accuses the Pukis of showing intelligent behaviour all through out their history. The Pukis have this blind hatred of all things Indian that they would rather take extreme actions rather than make the proper/intelligent decisions. This is evident in the India's shooting down of the Puki naval spy plane where they refused to follow instructions of the IAF fighter and follow it to an Indian air base because they hate India so much that they couldn't even imagine surrendering to an IAF fighter; but never the less it was a puki military aircraft (not civilian a/c) violating Indian airspace). The other incident was the Puki killing of our IAF pilot Ajay Ahuja in Kargil war after he flamed out on the other side of line of control. If the pukis have a gun and an Indian is in their control at the moment they would rather kill him instead of do the right/justful thing.

[SSridhar]

China to launch satellite for Pakistan
The following caught my eye

The satellite, made in China would provide a variety of benefits including high-power communication and weather monitoring facilities, besides strategic defence applications.

[Sagar G]

China to launch satellite for Pakistan

Time has come for India to test ASAT weapons and test it at the same "appropriate time" when chicom launches puki satellite. The message will be loud and clear.

[NRao]

Perhaps this is the wrong thread, but .....................

Slain IAF man's daughter forgives Pak pilot who killed him

this:

Admitting that she was 'somewhat overwhelmed' at receiving the apology letter from Hussain, she said she was expecting it. The PAF pilot's Indian contact, Jagan Pillarisetti, was in touch with her in the recent times.

[VikB]

Shiv - it is not only tough but impossible to hide 'capital' items. ...

VikB - this is a "we hope" thing. We hope and assume that the US knows. I personally don't believe it. What is worse is to imagine a scenario in which the US raids Pakistan and grabs an unspecified number of nukes and says "We got em all"

What is the guarantee that they have them all?

Nukes may be capital items - but what is much more difficult is nuclear material (Enriched Uranium/bomb grade Pu) which can be hidden away 15 kg here - 20 kg there etc.

Shiv, no where is it being said that we should take the Amrikkies at the face value. The contention is - knowing that stupid suicidal instincts of the Pakis, a nuclear exchange will be surely against our interests. Yes we can send them to stone age but only after taking some hits.
It is very tough for Pukes to keep the nukes away from the reach of at least 3 major spy agencies - US, Israel and India. The Europeans have their own fears. So one of the good ways we can take care of their bums even before they fly is to let the US be afraid enough to take care of the threat itself. We of course should simultaneously do ourselves what is right.

[Singha]

taken to one extreme would this mean if india detects a "fifth horseman" book type JDAM bound for NYC or LA GOI says nothing and lets it happen; or if it acts, arranges a deal involving very careful publication of the facts tracing it back to TSP and a mandatory press conf by the state dept "to thank our allies India for this information" ?

[aditya.agd]

Does India have any plan to effectively counter Pakistani Nuclear threat?

[Hiten]

yes

[gakakkad]

Does India have any plan to effectively counter Pakistani Nuclear threat?

Yup... we ll remove our red dhoti's ...."torro, torro" ....just like a bull fight.....

their new clear detergent is hardly even a threat .....

[krishnan]

We have shaktiman to take care of that, dont worry

[Sabyasachi]

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?731282
Russia Customs Seizes Pak Bound Military Spares

[Philip]

Sab. good to hear that the Russians are cracking down on the Pakis.Now for the US to do the same too,,,if they have the inclination especially after being shafted!

More on Paki perfidy giving the Chinese access to the US stealth helo.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... opter.html

Pakistan 'gave China access to bin Laden raid helicopter'
Pakistan reportedly gave China access to the American "stealth" helicopter that crashed during the raid which led to the death of Osama bin Laden.

Xcpt:

By Nick Allen
14 Aug 2011

The CIA had explicitly requested that technology from the helicopter not be shared but Chinese military officials were said to have been allowed to take photographs of it and to obtain samples of its special "skin" that allowed it to evade radar.

If confirmed the disclosure will further shake relations between the United States and Pakistan which hit their lowest point in decades following the raid on May 2.

During the US operation one of two modified Blackhawk helicopters, believed to employ previously unknown stealth capability, malfunctioned and crashed in Abottabad forcing commandos to abandon it. They blew up the wreckage but the tail section remained.

According to the Financial Times a person "in intelligence circles" revealed: "The US now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad."

No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan's top spy agency, denied the report. According to the newspaper Pakistan's chief of army staff, Ashfaq Kayani, also denied China had been given access.

The surviving tail section, photographs of which were widely distributed on the internet, was returned to the US following a trip by Senator John Kerry in May.

Shortly after the raid, Pakistan had hinted that it might give China access to the helicopter due to its anger over the raid

[Sabyasachi]

Sab. good to hear that the Russians are cracking down on the Pakis.Now for the US to do the same too,,,if they have the inclination especially after being shafted!

Philip

Actually it tells us how arms can enroute to Pakistan via Russia legally or illegally (Russian leverage on us).

It can provide us insights about what Pakistan may be interested in smuggling from Russia and Eastern Europe.

Russia wouldn't like small arms, hi tech explosives, ak47s getting into Pakistan and then ultimately in the hands of Islamic Chechen rebels. China would dislike the same as well.

[Kartik]

zoom zoom zoom !
*** Pix deleted ***

[arun]

The first part of a series of articles by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — I


Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

[shiv]

OK folks tell me:

Reports say that Pakistan has "manufactured" 26 JF-17s. Fine. of course it is likely that what has been done is the assembly of JF-17s whose kits have been imported from China. In other words there is a manufacturing line in China that makes those JF 17 assemblies for final assembly in Pakistan. If there is no such manufacturing line in China, fine, fine. It's all in Pakistan. Not in China. So far so good.

Now tell me folks, how many JF-17s have appeared in service in the PLAAF? Exactly none in terms of reports. How many JF-17s have appeared in air forces other than Pakistan? Exactly none. That means that China does not currently maintain a final assembly and testing line for JF-17s in China. That job has moved to Pakistan.

But..but..

If China has no up and running assembly line for JF-17s how is China going to supply Pakistan with 50 JF 17s "free of charge"? China will have to create that assembly line, ramp up its production and then supply the planes to Pakistan no?

I think that announcement was a lie.

[tsarkar]

The JF-17 deal with Pakistan is similar to our Su-30MKI deal.

JF-17 was a backup program incase J-10 failed. J-10 had risky development profile - Israeli design + Russian engine. The JF-17 was more evolutionary of the MiG-21/J-7 lineage.

On top, China noticed a low cost fighter export market that was wide open after MiG-21/F-5/J-7 lines closed. Pakis were purchasing second hand Mirage 3 to replace their F-6 and needed a low cost replacement for their 150 + Mirage 3 and 100 odd F-7. The JF-17 neatly fit the bill and the Chinese allowed the Pakistani to play a part in development.

China manufactures the kits while PAC Kamra assembles. Just like IAPO manufactures kits and HAL assembles (excluding the 140 that will be manufactured from "raw materials").

In the absence of other JF-17 customers, production is low rate (~ 10 pa).

Nothing is free, and JF-17 is an attractive commercial deal for both parties, just like Su-30 was.

[rajanb]

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=109280

Visible and invisible US conditionalities

There are dubious clauses that are frequently invoked by Americans to increase pressure on Pakistan in their unending demand to do more. As there is no end to humiliation, it would be in the fitness of things if Pakistan makes a firm decision to reject American aid in toto and instead carry on the war against terror at a scale and speed that it can afford from its own resources. As size of the begging bowl is increasing with the passage of time, over-dependence on foreign aid is also causing serious dents on the psyche of the nation and therefore, we formulate a long term strategy to stand on our own feet.

[shiv]

The JF-17 deal with Pakistan is similar to our Su-30MKI deal.

JF-17 was a backup program incase J-10 failed.

The JF 17 (or similar class) was always meant to be a F-7 replacement and Pakistan was interested from the mid 1970s. IIRC The Pakistanis lost interest in between but jumped in again when the FC-1 design came up

Here is a history that I wrote from multiple sources
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1109608

I personally am unable the see the similarity with the Su-30 program. The Su-27 was an existing proven design that later became the Indian MKI. The JF-17 was the latest name for the FC-1 which had different avatars before this particular design was selected - stating with the "Super-7/Sabre II design" with collaboration from Grumman until the latter pulled out after Tiananmen

[Austin]

There is precious little Pakistan Defence and Aerospace Estb can contribute to JF-17 other then spec it out or ASQR it.

Indian contribution to MKI program was substantial to the extent that there are quite a few key Indian designed system went in there.

Pakistan contribution would be to choose specific Chinese system or Western type and Lic produce JF-17 with some mix and match stuff.

[arun]

The first part of a series of articles by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — I


Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

Part two in the series by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — II —A R Siddiqi

Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

[tsarkar]

JF-17 was a backup program incase J-10 failed.

The JF 17 (or similar class) was always meant to be a F-7 replacement and Pakistan was interested from the mid 1970s. IIRC The Pakistanis lost interest in between but jumped in again when the FC-1 design came up.

My statement was in response to the fact that why did China build the JF-17 when it doesnt plan to induct any.

And the answer is JF-17 had a well proven Grumman design + Russian assistance on the MiG single seater being developed (later shelved) + Russian engine. Hence the JF-17 program was less risker than the J-10, that used an unproven Lavi design, and they were trying to mate it with a Russian engine that was larger in diameter and heavier as well, something that required quite a lot of re-engineering of the Lavi design around an smaller and compact American engine. One the J-10 came online, they lost interest in the JF-17. In Chinese squadrons, the F-7 is being replaced by J-10 instead of the JF-17.

I read an Aviation Week article where an entire Lavi + Israeli technicians were found by Russians working on the J-10 program.

The JF-17 deal with Pakistan is similar to our Su-30MKI deal.

I personally am unable the see the similarity with the Su-30 program.

The Russian had an airframe that we, based on our experience and requirements, customized with TVC - that Su-27 didnt have and added Israeli + French + Indian avionics.

The Pakistanis also planned to enhance the JF-17 with French avionics + missiles like IAF. Fiza'ya Air Commodore heading the program went on TV stating that RC-400 has been selected for the JF-17. The deal fell through because of the unpaid bribes leading to French engineers being killed, and French stuff being expensive.

The second similarity is CAC builds kits that PAC assembles and advertises as indigenous, just like IAPO builds kits that HAL assembles and advertises as 28 Su-30 indigenously manufactured per annum, when of that 28, 14 are manufactured from "raw materials" and 14 from IAPO kits.

[shiv]

My statement was in response to the fact that why did China build the JF-17 when it doesnt plan to induct any.

Does China have a complete assembly line for the JF-17? My post was based on the premise that China does not have a complete assembly line for the JF-17. If you have any information that China has such an assembly line in China I would be interested in knowing where the fully built aircraft are going.

The information I have is that the final assembly of JF-17s from CKDs is in Pakistan, not in China. If China does not have an assembly line, then China will not be able to supply 50 JF-17s to Pakistan without setting up a parallel JF-17 assembly line in China.

[P Chitkara]

They are probably providing 50 kits free of cost - the kits will come free but assembling and painting (the most important part ) them will be the responsibility of the pakis.

[Aditya_V]

Any idea what kind of radar on the JF-17, is it intergrated with SD-10? or they just using the Grifo-7 with 15km range?

[Austin]

Pakistan not terror sponsor: US

[rajanb]

Pakistan not terror sponsor: US

Was expected as propounded by some BRFites on this forum.

As one US TV commentator on CNN said a while back: "They have us by the short hairs and aren't scared of pulling!"

To the US, the Pak-Chinese axis seem now to be growing in potency.

Ofcourse, The US can pay lip service to Pak and quietly work behind the scenes to make life uncomfortable for the Pakis.

But for us, the writing on the wall has been clear for some time, notwithstanding the OBL raid, which seemed to suggest that the US had woken up to Paki perfidy. That we have to protect our own interests and stop expecting to our "natural ally" to bail us out!

[prabhug]

JF-17
What is its radar?
What is its ammunition meaning missiles?
If engine on Mig-29 specs to be believed then what would be thrust it can generate.
AoA etc... is all extra

cheerss

[SSridhar]

X-post
What Does Pakistan Hope to Achieve with Nasr ? - IDSA Comment by Ali Ahmed

As can be seen, there are some operational level dividends that would accrue to Pakistan by using Nasr though it will come at some strategic cost. Two possibilities emerge. The first is that the Pakistani military - true to its wont in being more sensitive to military as against political and strategic concerns - has perhaps focused overly on the operational gains as against strategic costs. Alternatively, given the inescapably obvious costs that it will incur, the military is sensitive to the contradictions. It is only milking Nasr as an information war opportunity.

The judgment here is in favour of the latter. Nasr can at best likely increase India’s natural restraint and operational caution. There is no particular harm in this for there is little case for nuclear haste and any additional operational caution can only energise prior preparation. In its employment, the Nasr is unlikely to halt India in its tracks. Instead, it will likely be employed in nuclear signalling, the most likely manner of which could be in a demonstration strike.

India can arrive at prudent answers, both at the conventional and nuclear levels, to deal with this issue. What might such an answer be? The suggestion here is that the employment of Nasr, even in a ‘green-field’ mode, must release India from NFU constraint. This does not imply default retaliation. Instead, it is for debate whether manipulating the threat of nuclear attack(s) will beget India more political and military dividends than indulging in them.

[rohitvats]

Good article.

Nice to see some in-depth analysis.

However, in all this, no one seems to be questioning the ability of Pakistan to produce nucleur warhead of the size to fit the missile.

[tsarkar]

Does China have a complete assembly line for the JF-17?....The information I have is that the final assembly of JF-17s from CKDs is in Pakistan, not in China. If China does not have an assembly line, then China will not be able to supply 50 JF-17s to Pakistan without setting up a parallel JF-17 assembly line in China.

No, China doesnt. But since they manufacture the structural parts, setting up the jigs for a final assembly line wont take time or effort. HAL set up Hawk assembly line in less than a year. So if other F-7 users like Ghana/Nigeria/Zimbabwe/Sri Lanka/Bangladesh/Bolivia want JF-17, CAC can easily oblige without turning to PAC.

Pakistan has approx 150 Mirage 3 and 100 F-7 in service. Both have been dropping off the skies faster than MiG-21s in IAF service, if anyone happens to follow Pakistani newspaper reports. These 250 odd birds will be replaced by JF-17. Pakistan ordered first 50 - 8 LSP 42 IOC birds around 2008 and these orderes should be completed by 2014-5. The 2011 order for 50 will lead to kits being worked up now for delivery from 2015 onwards. The next 50 orders is not out of the blue, its part of their long term plans. China will provide the kits that PAC will assemble.

[shiv]

Pakistan has approx 150 Mirage 3 and 100 F-7 in service. Both have been dropping off the skies faster than MiG-21s in IAF service, if anyone happens to follow Pakistani newspaper reports. These 250 odd birds will be replaced by JF-17. Pakistan ordered first 50 - 8 LSP 42 IOC birds around 2008 and these orderes should be completed by 2014-5. The 2011 order for 50 will lead to kits being worked up now for delivery from 2015 onwards. The next 50 orders is not out of the blue, its part of their long term plans. China will provide the kits that PAC will assemble.

The topic of Pakistani news reports is relevant. There has been an announcement from Pakistani sources in the last 2 months - after the bin Laden raid IIRC, and picked up by other sources that "China has agreed to supply 50 JF-17s to Pakistan". One recent report even added the words "free of charge".

This was the news that I have been skeptical about. The final assembly of parts for JF-17 was to have been in Pakistan, with Pakistan sharing the responsibility of constructing from CKD and exporting if need be. Hence Pakistan flew the JF-17 to Farnborough. And hence JF-17 was "Made in Pakistan". So what has changed now? Why can't the 50 new JF-17s be built in Pakistan? How will China supply them? China does not have an assembly line and will have to set up one. So the news item could be fake like many from Pakistan.

[SaiK]

they are sling shooting to stealth facilities straight away... j20 is negotiated now.

[arun]

The first part of a series of articles by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — I


Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

Part two in the series by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — II —A R Siddiqi

Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

Part three in the series by Brigadier (Retd) A R Siddiqi on the influence of Jihadism on the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Jihadism and the military in Pakistan — III —A R Siddiqi

Always remember that the motto of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is ” Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah “ or translated from Urdu into English, is “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah ”.

[arun]

Always good to remember that the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan sanctified by its motto of “Iman Taqwa Jihad fi Sabilillah” or “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah”, are nothing but the uniform wearing branch of global Islamic terrorist Jihadism.

Excerpt from a Herald article titled “Islam in the garrison”:

Islam in the garrison

Posted on August 16, 2011 by Umer Farooq

On March 16, 2004, the Pakistan Army launched its first operation in South Waziristan tribal agency to weed out al-Qaeda and Taliban elements who had crossed into Pakistan after coming under American attacks in Afghanistan. General Pervez Musharraf, the then Chief of Army Staff (COAS) and the ruler of the country, held a series of meetings with his top commanders in the run-up to the operation and repeatedly asked them a single question. “Do you see any kind of reluctance among your soldiers to fire at the militants?” a participant of these meetings quotes him as asking. “He was visibly worried. He wanted to be dead sure that he did not face any backlash from within the army as he sent it into the tribal areas,” says a retired military officer who worked closely with Musharraf during his tenure in the government.

The commanding officers told their chief that their men were all set to strike the militants. What transpired during the operation, however, must have surprised many of them. As the militants offered tough resistance to the Pakistan Army, in some cases paramilitary troops and army soldiers surrendered without a fight apparently in response to the calls from religious leaders in the tribal areas that the operation was meant for killing their own “Muslim brethren”. …………………………

The Herald

[arun]

Pakistani military officers' link with jihadist orgs - a comprehensive MEMRI report
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

This report should be saved in BR archives.

The above article by MEMRI regarding the links of personnel of the Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to Islamic Terrorist groups deserves to be X Posted here.

[Thomas Kolarek]

Sean O'Connor - July Edition

What Is It? – July 2011

Last month’s What Is It? featured a Ghauri MRBM towed TEL north of Kahuta in Pakistan. The missile resides on the grounds of the Khan Research Laboratory (KRL). Pakistani MRBMs are unique insofar as they often feature red-painted warhead sections. The key feature used to identify the location is the camouflage applied to the facility’s structures. The closely spaced buildings indicate that the facility is not an operational garrison, and the camouflage scheme identifies the complex as the KRL. The towed TEL and location identify the weapon as a KRL- designed Ghauri; the similar Shaheen II uses a self-propelled TEL and is produced by NESCOM elsewhere.

Why do they camouflage the KRL ? Any idea ?

[Singha]

cheaper than using camouflage nets in same pattern. makes it harder for overflying a/c to quickly identify the structures and target the relevant ones - like say a bunch of jaguars going in low level and time for one pass only.
against long range missiles or LGB guided with glonass co-ordinates the camo does not matter....but we have such weapons relatively recently.

[SSridhar]

Another one from IDSA on Nasr.
NASR, a disadvantage for Pakistan - Reshmi Kazi