PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 02 Aug 2011 02:31

^^
for all you know, US, citing issues of interoperability & cohesiveness in the event of an attack by N Korea will push its own maal, scuttling PAK-FA's chances

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Aug 2011 02:56

@NRao^^^

Cannot say for sure. But here are my observations (tea leaf reading):

5) I would not be surprised at all if the FGFA will have more non-Russian components - perhaps including the engine and radar .....

Sorry for the delayed response. Did not see this sooner.

Not a trick question but if we source/provide the avionics, radar and engine. What exactly are we buying from the Russians (not tires certainly:))? The airframe, the project management/systems integration (we'll have to do this if the stuff is non-Russian), supply chain (:)) ?

Do we need Russian know how on composites?

From the layman's standpoint FGFA from the IAF seems to be aiming at a FB-22. A long legged stealth strike a/c

I am not a supporter of the F-35 --it's a gold elephant that even the US can't afford, but the FGFA if it is relying on the Russians to deliver, is toast and I hope we have not written out the checks in advance.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Aug 2011 03:06

Not the radar nor the engines....these are the heart of the pakfa

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Aug 2011 05:08

What exactly India is buying from Russia if radar, engines, etc are out sourced to some other vendor. Nice question. : )

As you can see ^^^ there are more than one answer to this question.

My feel is that the FGFA is a stand alone design - perhaps based on the PAK-FA (the Russians prefer that), but I feel that the Indian team does not really care about that. IF it works out that a way - fine, else the alternative is fine too. To be sure, this is an Indian plane, designed with the help of Russian experts - which has great value no doubt.

I feel that the amount India is willing to finally invest ($30 Billion), the urgency for such a machine and the fact that India has signed up only for the design phase, leads me to believe that India wants to be, and rightly so, in control. IF things beyond the design phase cannot be nailed down India I am betting India will roll with alternatives. Can the design handle that? I do not know. BUT I am betting that that option is open to India.

So, my feel is that AFTER the design phase, India will position the FGFA to essentially auction the future (under control).

On the flip side, I do not recall reading that the Russians have a proper engine beyond saying they do and having consolidated all the engine companies under one flag. The radar too, yes, it has 1500+ modules. What else? I am sure there is time even if these are not very mature. But, I doubt India has the time to depend on sub par products. The proposed engine for the Sitara took ages ........................... Again, I would like to emphasize these are only data points. They could change or may already have.

Comments?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Aug 2011 10:41

the important components of the pakfa - new radar, new engine, internal weapons do not look mature or proven to me - all are presently in development. "workarounds" in the form of older engines, older radar and older weapons are ok to push through some part of the test program, but eventually all of these will need integration and testing also before IOC. every 5th gen or even 4.5th gen pgm has suffered from delays and discovery of new problems....pakfa will be no exception.

I am not expecting any in IAF service before 2020 - if all goes truly well. if not, then 2025.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 02 Aug 2011 10:54

Singha wrote:the important components of the pakfa - new radar, new engine, internal weapons do not look mature or proven to me - all are presently in development. "workarounds" in the form of older engines, older radar and older weapons are ok to push through some part of the test program, but eventually all of these will need integration and testing also before IOC. every 5th gen or even 4.5th gen pgm has suffered from delays and discovery of new problems....pakfa will be no exception.

I am not expecting any in IAF service before 2020 - if all goes truly well. if not, then 2025.

Singha ji,

The PAK-FA will see Indian service from starting 2017 onward, IAF may buy 50 single seater first just as they brought su-30 before the MKI. The FGFA will start coming from the 2020 onward s.

Now Indian commitment to the program is unquestioned. IAF may replace some components which they feel not matured with their western counterparts. But there is no other fifth generation aircraft which is going to have this much customized for IAF. The only chance is that the ADA flying the MCA before 2017-2018 period.

Now i want too see the testing of FGFA happening in Bangalore.

manum · Post by **manum** » 02 Aug 2011 11:09

2025 will be too far...actually as per assessment it makes FGFA stands in similar timeline of Chinese stealth...I am not comparing, but they don't even have that much what Russians have. If we have collaborated, its no point taking control of things by one party, Russia will be very happy if Indians take control of FGFA...it'll save them from all the troubles and faults...

I think we must involve them in everything as a chief advisers, designers while we keep on checking what needs to be done and expediting the thing, One way our job is to collaborate and oversee as well...Engines and radar will have to be Russian to make this plane clear the IOC...or we'll have to go through the troubles of looping in few more consultants...Its not good...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Aug 2011 06:22

Assessing the 5th Generation Competition: Losing A Decade

:
It is difficult to determine the actual capabilities of the PAK-FA T-50 because of conflicting information released by Sukhoi, Russian Air Force members, Putin, and other observers of this project. In addition, there is often a difference between desire and reality when it comes to Russian defense procurement. Russia must overcome several technical and performance obstacles in order for the Russian fighter to compete on a performance basis with the world’s pre-eminent fifth-generation fighter(s).

Despite claims by Russia’s NPO Saturn company, which leads the program to build new engines for the PAK FA, that the T-50 has flown its test flights with “completely new powerplants,” these statements are both unverified and seemingly contradicted by Russian government officials. The super-cruise engines intended for Russia’s fifth-generation fighters may not yet be available. Despite the development of Russian manufacturer NIIP of an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system, similar to the system used by the F/A-22, for the PAK FA, it has not yet been seen on a test flight. This is a significant shortcoming in the development of the PAK FA as a modern stealth fighter, since stealth aircraft rely on their Low Probability of Intercept radar system for survival and their ability to “see and not be seen” gives such aircraft the ability to form a picture of their battlespace and gain air-to-air superiority.

It is unclear if the PAK FA can be completed in under 9 years. Historically, fourth- and fifth- generation fighters normally require 15 years or so to develop. The fact that the PAK FA has gone on several test flights without super-cruise engines or an LPI/AESA radar means that it is unlikely that the production goal of 1,000 operational ready PAK FAs will be ready by the stated 2015 date.

But funding and other support from the Indian government might help accelerate the timetable. India has become largest foreign customer for Russian military aircraft, and would be a logical buyer of this plane. In October 2007, Indian and Russian officials signed a preliminary agreement to collaborate in developing and manufacturing a 5th-generation fighter. The two governments are still negotiating a final contract. India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) wants to modify Sukhoi’s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter.
:
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Long article talks about J20 also.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Aug 2011 07:22

So, all that HAL is interested is only converting the single seat to two seat fighter? they should give more details.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2011 05:54

SaiK wrote:So, all that HAL is interested is only converting the single seat to two seat fighter? they should give more details.

Yes and no.

From a Russian PoV they would like it to be conversion, but from an Indian PoV it is a re-design (which it should be - such planes are not like Gnats or MiG-21 that can be converted).

Aug 5, 2011 :: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd aircraft delivery numbers up 63% in 2010-2011

A Preliminary Design (PD) contract has been signed between HAL and Rosoboronexport, Russia on 21st December, 2010 for implementation of design & development of Prospective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) Aircraft programme by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) jointly with Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) of Russia at a cost of 295 million USD. The duration of the PD Phase is 18 months.

Of greater importance:

Full scale Design & Development work will be taken up under a separate contract, which will be negotiated and signed towards the end of the PD Phase.

We are under the Preliminary Design Phase.

Full design has yet to come!!!!!!!!!! Start mid 2012?

Then TD. My estimation around2014-15ish.

Then ........ IOC (2016-17?)...FOC (2018ish?)....

All this will be independent of the PAK-FA. IMHO.

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 08 Aug 2011 09:03

This article is informative and revealing in more than one way...

However, more important for both Russia and India is New Delhi's proposed Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, a modified version of the Sukhoi T-50. India's rising stature as a political and military power has led it to build on its long-standing relationship with Russia and bid for a leading-edge military capability in the form of this advanced combat aircraft.
Barrie believes that India has basically bought its way on to the programme, and that it will provide an extremely valuable funding stream for the aircraft's development.
India regards it as very much a joint Indo-Russian programme, but essentially the project will remain Russian-controlled, says Barrie. "It's 'joint' only in the sense that it's jointly funded."
India is keen to have influence on the aircraft through its substantial financial stake, but Barrie says he believes any modifications will essentially be "around the edges", in the same way that some Indian members of the Su-27 family contain a proportion of western and Israeli avionics.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -real.html

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 08 Aug 2011 14:03

As per my understanding FGFA is simply a twin seater PAK-FA which has been MKI'ised. The avionics will be custom and some of the aircraft structure may have additional composite panels.

It wont be a new design - just a modified PAK-FA; please do correct me if I am mistaken.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 08 Aug 2011 14:54

I dont think India will contribute an amount of 6Bn USD only to MKIise PAK FA and what this MKIsing consists off? Few changes/replacement in MFDs, Computers and some navigation system or a laser designation pod and a EW suite...We wont be replacing the radar or engines as there are no options available... Dont think that will cost 6 bn USD. Besides, the incremantal capability as we got in SU 30 MKI over SU 27 wont be available in case of Pak Fa which already would be flying with top notch avionics...Whatever MKIsing will be just to keep standardisation of components between FGFA and AMCA.

My understanding tells me that although we may not contribute substantially, we will actually get a lot of knowledge and insights (for the first time rather the license production under so called TOT) which will be of great help in developing AMCA (remember we have sanctioned only 1 Bn for it and no one in the right sense will agree that it can be developed with that amount), The timeline of approval of AMCA and PAK-FA isnt a coincidience. PAK FA was in talks since 2006 and its approval came only in 2010 when it was certain that LCA MK1 will be getting IOC in a couple of months and approval of AMCA just around the same time. Doesnt it say some thing?

Just my understanding, will be happy to further enlightened.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Aug 2011 19:04

Nick_S wrote:As per my understanding FGFA is simply a twin seater PAK-FA which has been MKI'ised. The avionics will be custom and some of the aircraft structure may have additional composite panels. It wont be a new design - just a modified PAK-FA; please do correct me if I am mistaken.

Converting a single seater PAK-FA to a twin-Seater FGFA is not a trivial task, it is essentially a re-design. it will not be a trainer type 2-seater but a full-fledged twin-seater in the mold of an MKI. Hence the huge cost of $6B. Desh is also buying a stake into the program and IMHO buying significant Bells & Whistles from the Bear.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Aug 2011 19:47

ASSESSING THE 5TH GENERATION COMPETITION
Second Line of Defense

08/02/2011 – The introduction of non-US stealth aircraft into the global competition is a significant development. The Chinese and Russians have introduced developmental prototypes that signify both capabilities and intentions to enter the stealth aircraft game. The former Secretary of Defense indicated that this competition was years away; but it has arrived today.

And make no mistake about it, an ability to introduce stealth into the battlespace changes the competition and the air battle management challenge. To quote one senior retired USAF officer: “If you don’t have a good communication and data link system among the blue 5th generation aircraft, they will not easily distinguish the nature of the adversaries own stealth airframe. The way to solve this is simply to have a honeycombed 5th generation fleet; but to not do this makes the bandit’s stealth platforms more effective in disrupting air battle management and mission success.”

The Russian T-50 comes as the culmination of a more mature aircraft development production process than does the Chinese. The T-50 exists and flies and will be available in the global fleet. And a senior Russian aerospace executive recently emphasized that he saw

good global sales prospects for the Sukhoi T-50 (PKA FA), including those in Southeast Asia, Latin America, and even a few African countries. The Russian Air Force will also continue to purchase these planes through at least the current SAP (2020), and probably beyond, while the Indian Air Force will begin buying the planes around 2015. He also believes that the Russian aircraft industry would further develop the Su-30/34/35 series, which he argued was completely different from the Su-27 sequence. He also stated that these 4th-generation planes would experience strong sales due to the Sukhoi’s commitment to produce 5th-generation craft. Buyers appreciate the company’s commitment to remain a leading developer of aerospace technology and could see how 5th-generation technology could be backfilled into their 4th-generation planes, as Sukhoi was doing in the Russian Air Force.

Flow down from the T-50 to earlier planes in the Russian export inventory as well as existing relationships and prospective relationships in South Korea are key considerations as well.

And an assessment of the aircraft by a key SLD team member has been as follows:

It is difficult to determine the actual capabilities of the PAK-FA T-50 because of conflicting information released by Sukhoi, Russian Air Force members, Putin, and other observers of this project. In addition, there is often a difference between desire and reality when it comes to Russian defense procurement. Russia must overcome several technical and performance obstacles in order for the Russian fighter to compete on a performance basis with the world’s pre-eminent fifth-generation fighter(s).

Despite claims by Russia’s NPO Saturn company, which leads the program to build new engines for the PAK FA, that the T-50 has flown its test flights with “completely new powerplants,” these statements are both unverified and seemingly contradicted by Russian government officials. The super-cruise engines intended for Russia’s fifth-generation fighters may not yet be available. Despite the development of Russian manufacturer NIIP of an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system, similar to the system used by the F/A-22, for the PAK FA, it has not yet been seen on a test flight. This is a significant shortcoming in the development of the PAK FA as a modern stealth fighter, since stealth aircraft rely on their Low Probability of Intercept radar system for survival and their ability to “see and not be seen” gives such aircraft the ability to form a picture of their battlespace and gain air-to-air superiority.

It is unclear if the PAK FA can be completed in under 9 years. Historically, fourth- and fifth- generation fighters normally require 15 years or so to develop. The fact that the PAK FA has gone on several test flights without super-cruise engines or an LPI/AESA radar means that it is unlikely that the production goal of 1,000 operational ready PAK FAs will be ready by the stated 2015 date.

But funding and other support from the Indian government might help accelerate the timetable. India has become largest foreign customer for Russian military aircraft, and would be a logical buyer of this plane. In October 2007, Indian and Russian officials signed a preliminary agreement to collaborate in developing and manufacturing a 5th-generation fighter. The two governments are still negotiating a final contract. India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) wants to modify Sukhoi’s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Aug 2011 00:50

what a sight ! I cannot help but smile thinking of the day when we'll see these beauties at an IAF air base as they'll be inducted..ala our Su-30MKI's at Lohegaon..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Aug 2011 02:15

great pics indeed. I thought we would be not getting them but fgfa rather, which may not be entirely looking the same. anybody has any clue as to how fgfa may look? or is it the same airframe, and only in the internals and electronics (la mki), it becomes fgfa?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Aug 2011 03:49

SaiK wrote:great pics indeed. I thought we would be not getting them but fgfa rather, which may not be entirely looking the same. anybody has any clue as to how fgfa may look? or is it the same airframe, and only in the internals and electronics (la mki), it becomes fgfa?

The Sukhoi-HAL FGFA is likely to be a twin-seater but with a RCS penalty thanks to the second cockpit and its greater reflective surface area (cockpit canopies are treated to prevent reflected microwaves from getting out of the cockpit and reaching the emitter). But, there is also a good chance that the IAF will buy a squadron or two of the T-50 PAK-FA variant just like it did with the Su-30K/MK versions. Will give it a good idea of the maintenance footprint, training requirements and the general capabilities of the airframe and engine. As for how it looks, we don't know yet but there were a couple of artist's concepts around. But HAL/Sukhoi are apparently doing preliminary feasibility design work to identify the aerodynamic and RCS drawbacks of adding a second seat.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Aug 2011 06:44

Still on the single canopy, it is not a frame-less canopy, so how are they avoiding reflections from that strip of frame in the front?

Unless they have improvised on the skins that absorbs and dissipates the radiation, it could be a concern as well. Even those frame edges don't have saw tooth design.

?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Aug 2011 06:49

The dual seat will change the shape and size of the wing.

Found the citation:

India, Russia to have different versions of same fighter plane

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Also, although rather dated, yet coming from Baweja

this:

For starters, the committee meeting yesterday has agreed to expedite the conversion of the existing Inter-governmental Agreement (IGA) on joint development of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft into a formal General Agreement (GA). Interestingly, HAL chairman AK Baweja points out that two separate prototypes with common minimum technology will be developed -- one by Russia (designated the Sukhoi T-50) and a separate one by India (designated FGFA for now). While the Russian aircraft will be a single-seater, the Indian FGFA will be a twin seater, but not a trainer version of the Russian counterpart. Baweja explained that as per IAF doctrinal inputs, they want a mix of both single and twin seaters, though they would prefer the Indian sider to develop a twin-seater platform. HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics.

And, very interesting:

The current AL-31FP engine will have to evolve into a more powerful turbofan -- HAL is working to enter into a joint development mechanism with Russia for the evolution of the FGFA engine as an upward derivative of the AL-31FP.

Again, this is three years old news.

Mahesh SU · Post by **Mahesh SU** » 12 Aug 2011 09:29

Kartik wrote:what a sight ! I cannot help but smile thinking of the day when we'll see these beauties at an IAF air base as they'll be inducted..ala our Su-30MKI's at Lohegaon..

Hi Gurus,

I am new to this forum... I love to see this and AMCA in IAFAirbases together... Please correct me if i post any unwanted information means...

Thank you all,
Mahesh

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Aug 2011 09:57

Two Prototypes of PAK-FA

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9082/051168.jpg

vic · Post by **vic** » 12 Aug 2011 11:18

It is evident that we are basically providing the funding with very limited involvement. Having said this, IIRC out of US$ 6 Billion around US$ 3 Billion in going for R&D, Manufacturing line, hangers to be spent in India. So we are paying around US$ 3 Billion for the tech base of Russians in this field.

The cost for R&D of engine and radar seems separate and lets see how things develop in this area.

Though I think that the whole idea of ordering only 200 planes again smacks of piece meal order/s which would prevent us from developing a cost effective infrastructure. We should estimate around 350 planes for IAF and around 150 for export from India, which means that we should build infrastructure and manufacturing base for around 500 units.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Aug 2011 13:53

SaiK wrote:Still on the single canopy, it is not a frame-less canopy, so how are they avoiding reflections from that strip of frame in the front?

Unless they have improvised on the skins that absorbs and dissipates the radiation, it could be a concern as well. Even those frame edges don't have saw tooth design.

?

it will eventually get a frame-less canopy; they've been working on that.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Aug 2011 13:59

some more pics of this beauty. Mods please let me know if you don't like large pics being posted.

PAK-FA

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Aug 2011 14:05

some more...God, I cannot get over how gorgeous this airplane is !

PAK-FA Bort 51

PAK-FA Bort 52

PAK-FA Bort 52 on the ground

PAK-FA rear view

PAK-FA coming in to land

PAK-FA Bort 51 landing

PAK-FA Bort 51

PAK-FA front close up

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Aug 2011 14:47

^^ And it really grows on you.

I mean when I first saw it, it used to look disproportionate to me (having looked at conventional ones all these years) ... but now it looks like a sleek arrow ... I am fond of curves ... but by god, this plane has the lines!!!!

mukul_chou · Post by **mukul_chou** » 14 Aug 2011 14:49

Kartik wrote:some more pics of this beauty. Mods please let me know if you don't like large pics being posted.

First one must be the second prototype,
do I see the OLS on the front left of cockpit?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2011 15:46

from the side looks quite small and slim - little bigger than a f-15/EF if you delete that long tail spine.

once they put in the 5th gen engines, this puppy should have good a2a performance matching the best out there.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2011 17:45

Good baseline for fgfa! Hope we get the right team start doing the work in conjunction with AMCA requirements. Stealth, electronics and avionics, besides aerodynamics are our strengths that needs augmentation for team LCA.

The movable LERX instead of canard is impressive. I am against flat nozzles for IR stealth losing 360*tvc thrust, rather come with some ingenious solution [like they did for the inlets] but for IR reduction {something like retractable trailing pods for IR jamming}.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Aug 2011 06:44

While looking to see if the PAK-FA has any benefits for the MKI, found this presentation (perhaps has already been introduced to BR - sorry if so):

PAK-FA

Check Page 57 for the Sukhoi-HAL FGFA.

And:

Megh · Post by **Megh** » 15 Aug 2011 13:36

Some pics from yesterday flight training (MAKS-2011)
http://exbort-oper.livejournal.com/5759.html#cutid1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2011 21:59

Guys,

Russia has revealed a new missile at MAKS, the RVV-BD. Its the long range weapon for the PAKFA, upto 4 can be carried. Its a modernised, lighter version of the R-37M with 200 km range. Finally, Russia gets its "Meteor-ski", even if its not a ramjet.
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4718083.html

Vic, the involvement will be fairly ok this time - not just funding.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Aug 2011 22:49

WOW

Also:
http://russianplanes.net/images/to52000/051580.jpg

GLONASS Navigation module.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attach ... 6ea5b2.jpg
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attach ... 55639a.jpg
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attach ... 1ed23d.jpg

This is clearly more than just Navigation. Seems to be combo of Satcom and a Glonass receiver.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -into.html

The Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), already planned to be loaded with top-end combat features like advanced stealth and super-cruise capability, could also be plugged, uniquely, into a network of satellites. With Moscow willing to grant India unprecedented access to military signals from Russia’s constellation of GLONASS (GLObal NAvigation Satellite System) satellites, the FGFA could access real-time details of its own and enemy positions, terrain information, and have the ability to communicate with Indian forces anywhere on the globe.

A senior Russian diplomat, speaking anonymously to Business Standard, reveals that after extended negotiations with India, Moscow has okayed the provision of military data from GLONASS, in the form of digitized signals. So far, Russia had only agreed to provide India with civilian-grade navigation signals, which permitted an accuracy of 25-30 metres. Now, the military grade signals will allow a far higher accuracy, crucial for military operations.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the New Delhi-based Russian diplomat explained, “India is the only country that Moscow is willing to supply GLONASS military data to. Russia has recently okayed an agreement which officials from both sides have been negotiating for some time. From our side, we are ready to sign, even during (Russian president Dmitry) Medvedev’s visit to India this December.”

naird · Post by **naird** » 15 Aug 2011 23:08

Wow is the word ...!!!!

It seems that 2nd prototype has made some changes to Tail sting.....its is more pointed ...wonder why ?

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 15 Aug 2011 23:45

^^
second prototype tail sting seems to be more stealth optimized. Look at the bottom. Its more flat / angelized. The first 1 is a round pointed bulb kind of thing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Aug 2011 00:00

^^Supposedly P2 has an anti spin chute. Prototype 2 also has a IRST installed & a MAWS suite.

The Prototype 3 & 4 are also getting ready per reports. Prototype 3 will have the AESA radar from NIIP Tikhomirov.
Also, the Russians have offered India the opportunity to collaborate in the development of the new engine as well. Above and beyond the FGFA program apparently. Read a snippet on the net.

This plane is really cool, the Russians seem to be going all out - its extremely flat, no excess weight carried around & clearly looks like a hotrod, with those two new engines (Type 30) - it will offer a huge T/W ratio with superior impact on acceleration, time to height, agility and supersonic performance. Those multiple control surfaces, great lifting body plus high thrust with TVC also mean ITR, STR will be impressive as well.

The Russian (and Indian side) are both playing their cards close to the chest. It will be interesting to see in coming days the kinds of solutions used for RCS control, avionics details etc.

All in all, I am pleasantly surprised. I did not expect this for instance.
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... chief.html

So 3 engines, Type 117S, Type 117 and now a Type 30, which with flat nozzles will be the definitive engine for the PAKFA.

Note importance given to stealth and even mention of stealthy weapons. Pretty much means even avionics will be state of art, emission controlled (LPI)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Aug 2011 00:05

DRDO labs involvement (and not just HAL) means Indian R&D is being roped in extensively. Its a positive sign as versus just TOT to HAL.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/fgfar.jpg/#

Indian participation will include work on stealth, avionics, composites, aerodynamics, test and evaluation.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 16 Aug 2011 03:09

MAKS 2011 Begins!
First-off, our Kanya arrives in her vagabond Vastra

Post-Vastraharan (click for HIGH-RES)

Khandaan Photo: 34, 35 & 50

New & hopefully even more sensational images will keep pouring-in throughout the week, Watch this Space for more

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Aug 2011 10:47

Bhai Log I got a bit bored looking at PAK-FA pics. Can you guys post just the links of the pictures instead of posting the complete picture in this thread and leave it for PAK-FA/FGFA discussion. Thanks.