Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 17 Aug 2011 07:18

Yep, but its gonna take a while before the entire western corridor is electrified

The corridor will be electrified from day 1. The tracks and OHE is coming together, not separately. Doesn't make much economic sense to delink the two.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2011 08:15

again ToIlet.. is back to 90kN, when IAF wants the 100 mark.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Aug 2011 10:34

Kaveri Test-bed Debuts At MAKC

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 19 Aug 2011 18:10

Couldn’t find any information on the targeted thrust for Kaveri - post improvements by searching through google chacha. Any links or guesses?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 19 Aug 2011 18:31

P Chitkara wrote:Couldn’t find any information on the targeted thrust for Kaveri - post improvements by searching through google chacha. Any links or guesses?

I thought the target was 90-95 KN?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 19 Aug 2011 18:55

The hard reality is that that we are just learning how to build , maintain and operate jet engines.
We are probably where the Europeans and Americans were some 25 years back. It is a grinding sweaty treacherous slope from here on and investment will be needed. If the Kaveri has done 2000 hours already, then it is a commendable job that has bridged some 40-50 years of technological gap.
But there are simple things we can do to gain more experience. Feeding the Kaveri to the UCAV programme is important. Will yield tonnes of experience in deployment and management. The maintenance issues that come up can be fed back into the design stage of future engines. Handling of components, overhauling , repairs- all that are areas where there is a wealth of information can be gleaned. The support that the Kaveri needs is not just in some high tech material science - it needs everyone and everything ...finance, test infrastructure, IAF , HAL , manufacturing etc. all of them must come together to take the nascent Indian jet engine industry forward

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 03 Oct 2011 05:36

Cross-posting from the Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum

arun wrote: NFC develops Incoloy-nickel tubes for PHWR steam generators

This allow is corrosion resistant at high temperatures in H2O rich environments and similar alloys have been used for jet engine blades and even the containment chambers of nuclear fusion reactors.

This could be useful for a naval version of the Kaveri or even for the marine gas turbine.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 06 Oct 2011 19:33

Kaveri Official technical information

Kaveri three-stage transonic fan, designed for good stall margin and bird strike capability, handles an air mass flow of 78 kg/s and develops a pressure Combustion Chamber Liner ratio of 3.4. The six-stage variable capacity transonic compressor of Kaveri develops a pressure ratio of 6.4. The variable schedule of inlet guide vanes and two rows of stator is through FADEC control system to open the stator blades in a predetermined manner. High intensity low UD ratio annular combustor of Kaveri engine incorporates air blast injection of fuel for uniform outlet temperature profile and reduced carbon emission......

Kaveri engine is controlled by Kaveri full authority digital control unit {KADECU), which has been developed and successfully demonstrated at DRDO's test bed.

Kaveri-Special Characteristics
Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s
By-pass ratio : 0.16
Overall pressure ratio : 21.5
Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K
Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg)
Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg
After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg)
After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg
Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8
Application : Indian LCA

Sidhu · Post by **Sidhu** » 06 Oct 2011 20:03

^^^ Any chaiwalla info on what is really achieved in the tests at Gromov so far.

Not seen any reports from it (seen figures like 70%...80%) any concrete info on what really transpired.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Oct 2011 19:55

Military aircraft engine must be quickly developed: IAF chief N A K Browne

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2011 00:44

steal, beg or borrow

borrow is better... if someone is willing. The other two means, follow china model. precision engineering can be never gotten by stealing or begging.

I know it is just an idiom, but develop is always the way to go!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Oct 2011 09:28

I read the report in Rahstriya Sahara, thins morning and was positively stunned that a serving Chief would ask for some thing like this.

It seems that the IAF as an institution has come to the conclusion that for major defense projects home grown is best. The previous IAF Vice Chief is also on record suggesting a need for Reverse Engineering in order to shorten the time lines required to induct home grown products.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Oct 2011 09:30

It could also be out of frustration of waiting for so long. I dont think DRDO didnt try the 3 methods already

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 20 Oct 2011 11:43

This is reverse stand to what IAF did when it mocked down the DRDO-SNECMA alliance saying it would not be fully indigneous.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2011 16:56

In addition, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with French engine manufacturer Snecma to co-develop high-end technology for the Kabini, which forms the core part of Kaveri engine, being developed for the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas'. The negotiation is at an advanced stage and the DRDO hopes to work with the French so that the engine provides required thrust without affecting the size and weight.

sounds different from the earlier notion of core change.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Oct 2011 09:32

SaiK wrote:
In addition, the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is negotiating with French engine manufacturer Snecma to co-develop high-end technology for the Kabini, which forms the core part of Kaveri engine, being developed for the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas'. The negotiation is at an advanced stage and the DRDO hopes to work with the French so that the engine provides required thrust without affecting the size and weight.
sounds different from the earlier notion of core change.

How?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Oct 2011 10:08

the earlier idea (atleast on BR) was the core would be wholesale changed to the M88-Eco-core and only the front and back sections would be Indic.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Oct 2011 12:07

Singha wrote:the earlier idea (atleast on BR) was the core would be wholesale changed to the M88-Eco-core and only the front and back sections would be Indic.

I remember arguing my guts off that Kabini will be there and the JV is about the specific heat areas from Snecma and cold areas from GTRE. Please go back a few pages. ECO Core was proposed but never accepted. Kaveri engine is almost there. Just that the final push is required for the longevity of heat areas, reduction in weight and increase thrust. It doesn't mean total change in engine.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 27 Oct 2011 19:47

Here is a great link on Jet Engines. Written by someone who worked on the J58 engine which powers the SR-71 Balckbird at Mach 3+. One can see the great failures one after another, innovations, jugaad, lies and truths. Really the golden era of US aerospace. Great read, click on the pdf or you can watch the streaming. Interesting thing is that they too had the surge issues Kaveri faced.

http://www.bobabernethy.com/blackbirds_presentation.htm

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Nov 2011 17:20

DRDO in talks with SNECMA on JV of Kaveri Engine, IAF clears engine specs

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 23 Nov 2011 17:38

Haven’t the talks been going on forever?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2011 18:02

P Chitkara wrote:Haven’t the talks been going on forever?

One wonders whether they are MMRCA outcome dependant.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Nov 2011 21:36

if Kaveri MK-2 will power Tejas MK-2 !! ,then what will 98 GE F414IN will power ?? , whats is the link we are missing ? did we canceled GE engine orders ? i am confused

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 23 Nov 2011 22:21

karan_mc wrote:if Kaveri MK-2 will power Tejas MK-2 !! ,then what will 98 GE F414IN will power ?? , whats is the link we are missing ? did we canceled GE engine orders ? i am confused

There is nothing to be confused about. India has ordered 99 GE-414 engines for Tejas Mk 2. What this suggests is that there will be far greater no. of Tejas Mk 2 than the 99. The initial ones will roll out with GE-414 engines and the later ones with Kaveri. The plan is, by the time the first 99 Tejas roll out, Kaveri-Snecma engine will be ready to rumble.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Nov 2011 23:54

^^We need an indigenous engine for the AMCA, regardless of whether the LCA Mk2 ever flies with a Kaveri or not. The Kaveri-Snecma JV critically important and non-dependent on the eventual numbers of the LCA Mk2.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2011 02:52

Having given out the decision, what is preventing the draft specs to be made public? none other than this thread will enjoy to read, I guess. so.. I fear a $h!t hitting the turbo fan situation in the specs.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Nov 2011 11:48

Aditya_V wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:Haven’t the talks been going on forever?
One wonders whether they are MMRCA outcome dependant.

Could very well be the case. I for one, hope this JV goes through, and that the Kaveri becomes the engine for at least 3 future IAF platforms

1) LCA Mk2 (large numbers)

2) Rafale MLU

3) AMCA

4) Mirage 2000 (possible considering the long time frame for the M2k upg, and that the M53s have to be rather long in tooth by now).

CM.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Dec 2011 09:03

CM ji, I sincerely wish they cancel the M2K upgrade and go with Kaveri++. We can get some 80+ Rafale, and rest devote on AMCA/FGFA. M2K and Rafale platforms are an ideal candidate for K++.
--

http://aeroindia.org/reports-5045
Some of the major reasons for time and cost overruns are first-time development of an engine, lack of skilled manpower in engine manufacturing, enhancement in the scope of project during development, lack of infrastructure for engine manufacture testing and component/system level testing within the country.

"Flying test bed trials was not originally included as a milestone in the project. Engine and component failure during testing, which is inevitable in these kind of projects, resulted in changes in design and material based on various reviews," Antony said.

Foreign manufacturing agencies too showed less priority for the project in view of minimum order quantity, that is the production order quantity from other engine houses.

US sanctions imposed in 1998 (after India's nuclear tests in Pokhran under the National Democratic Alliance regime) affected the delivery of critical systems and components, he added.

so, we have identified areas of weakness. that is a ++ sign.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 05 Dec 2011 15:04

Another set of videos from BBC.
How to build a jumbo jet engine. - a peek into Rolls Royce .

Quite clear that such a large enterprise needs decades of support as should be treated the same way as the Indian nuclear submarine project.

Four part series begins here:

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Dec 2011 20:56

SaiK wrote:CM ji, I sincerely wish they cancel the M2K upgrade and go with Kaveri++. We can get some 80+ Rafale, and rest devote on AMCA/FGFA. M2K and Rafale platforms are an ideal candidate for K++.

How would the cancellation of the M2k upg. be related to to Kaveri? THey are as of now, on separate paths. Also, now that I think about it, Kaveri won't be an easy fit into the M2K, which uses a much bigger sized engine - a more in the AL-31 class in terms of dimensions.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 05 Dec 2011 21:42

Neela wrote:Another set of videos from BBC.
How to build a jumbo jet engine. - a peek into Rolls Royce .

Quite clear that such a large enterprise needs decades of support as should be treated the same way as the Indian nuclear submarine project.

Good one.. Part 2 of 4 at around 9 minutes has the part about single crystal blades.. Each turbine blade operates at 300 Deg above its melting pt.. mind blowing stuff
Thanks for the that..

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 21 Dec 2011 19:15

Development of Indigenous Aero-Engine by DRDO

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2011 20:37

CMji, where there is will...way, from 6 stage to 8 stage it could be made possible. All depends on the core design.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Jan 2012 16:08

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 31 Jan 2012 22:24

Was this posted before?

Kaveri engine to power fifth generation fighter aircraft

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Jan 2012 23:53

IMO GTRE needs to buy 3-4 used mig-29s as testbeds from russia from storage for Kaveri testing. We need platforms that have 500-1000 hours left in them.

Install Kaveri in one bay and keep RD-33 in another. The Mig-29 will require a complete overhaul to do such a thing as seating kaveri might not be easy, but this would allow us a fair amount of confidence and perhaps 100-200 hours of testing may allow us enough confidence to change both engines to be kaveri.

We have a fair amount of expertise maintaing Mig-29s and this means we can do things that we may not be able to do other platforms.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 01 Feb 2012 08:08

I am not sure of the drivetrain used for propulsion in a railway application but if it is as stated namely, diesel power is converted to electric power to drive the wheels then the reason is simple Torque.
The only way to increase the torque on a gas turbine driven shaft would be to put it through a reduction gear box and use the output as mech energy or again through the gearbox drive an alternator
A electric engine has the most torque. possible followed by the Diesel , and the Gas turbine would be lower down
Most propulsive power applications the driving parameter is torque not horsepower (they are inter related)

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 01 Feb 2012 09:15

[b]Cybaru Post subject: Re: Kaveri & aero-engine discussionPosted: 31 Jan 2012 23:53

BRFite

Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Posts: 583 IMO GTRE needs to buy 3-4 used mig-29s as testbeds from russia from storage for Kaveri testing. We need platforms that have 500-1000 hours left in them.

Install Kaveri in one bay and keep RD-33 in another. The Mig-29 will require a complete overhaul to do such a thing as seating kaveri might not be easy, but this would allow us a fair amount of confidence and perhaps 100-200 hours of testing may allow us enough confidence to change both engines to be kaveri.

We have a fair amount of expertise maintaing Mig-29s and this means we can do things that we may not be able to do other platforms.

We don't have to ask russia for old mig 29.We have old HF 24. We can use them as test bed.
We might gain something because we were thinking HF 24 needed more powerful engine,that will give us more expeirance.

[/b]

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 10:14

nukavarapu ji Marut was a twin engined bird

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 01 Feb 2012 12:45

suryag wrote:nukavarapu ji Marut was a twin engined bird

yes but Marut was also considered underpowered, so would a single engine be able to keep the a/c airborne?