The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Inder Sharma]

Please don’t jump on conclusions based on CT’s and Conmedia. The statement only wishes to make the real power holders that be(the gandhis), responsible for the decisions that the Indian government makes.

This is forcing the hand on Rahul to make him to cave-in to the demands. If Rhaul does, Anna wins. If Rahul doesn’t, he loses.

Also, please make one thing clear. People are very, very, very anti-congress now. And nothing can change that opinion for at least 5-6 years and BJP will do itself good if its claptraps can keep their mouth shut and not be seen indulging in slugfest, with or for congress.

Waise. hows the public mood in Calcutta?

[gakakkad]

However, as someone pointed out, technology has become a way to sidestep clerical oppression for many a masses. CB Naidu's e-seva centers have made many things easier for aam citizenry. The less said about the spectacular level of service-delivery and governance standards in Modi's Gujarat, the better I guess. Nitish is trying to blaze a trail even in the badlands of Bihar.

I can only hope and pray Shri Modi takes over the most important portfolio in the next government's union cabinet - Agriculture. And free the sector of Raj era controls, remove the oppressive APMC act's restrcitions, facilitate corporate-buyers and farmer-entreneur's interactions, kickstart the food processing supply chain dynamics, free land use restrictions that benefits all parties etc etc. Would heavily oimpact the largest emploeyer by sectoer in India and the largest mass of coomon and poor people in India in manifold ways. If only wishes were horses....

Tech made obselete paying bribes to BSNL/MTNL for a phone connection or to wait a year for a bajaj scooter. Land and land use remains the last of the license permit raj hangover left in sarkari hands. It accounts for tons of black money and funds many a party.

Let us hope things will improve, slowly if surely, for the majority of our country's population.

Precisely. One of the greatest reductions in corruption occurred in 1990 when import restrictions were relaxed. Gold and electronics worth billions was smuggled prior to that. And all the customs people were involved in the business.
My dad tells me that one of his acquaintances had to smuggle a hard drive to avoid a 400% or something of that sort import duty back in 1988. Foreign exchange given was very limited. Overseas account made sense for people doing business abroad to avoid the ridiculous FERA. Gold smuggling was rampant. When restrictions were reduced there was a rapid reduction in corruption at the airport customs department.

80% corruption can be reduced by simplifying the crappy rules , arguably framed by the visionaries in 1950s to perpetually finance their rotten business.

A lot of govt business in unkil gets done online with ease . Such models can easily be adopted in India.

If NaMo becomes the PM he may irreversibly modernise our constitution and government procedures . That would not be in the interest of these crony politicians. Hence the reason for anti- Modi psy-ops . This is the same reason why even BJP central leadership (some people) dislike Modi. If you look at corporation election results in Gujarat , the only constituencies Modi does badly are Gandhinagar constituencies where the Babu's live. He has made life hell for the pot bellied bureaucrats . Thats why they vote against BJP.
Once the rules are simplified a lok pal bill may be an additional deterrent against corruption. Without simplifying rules lokpal might well backfire.

[ashashi]

Team Anna answers your Qs

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/your-c ... -qs/208377

WOW!!
An Indian talkshow where the host doesn't scream at the top of his voice and lets the guest to speak.
A civilized interview.
I am impressed.

[Altair]

Complete Business Process Outsourcing to IBM/Infy to make it wholly computerized and all interaction with the system is through public kiosks and web portals. It is the future.

And along with that will come a single computerized switch to fudge the data and skew the results across all these computers In a democracy there is no substitute for a vigilant and alert population who are willing to take action. The corrupt and the criminals rely on the system being slow, lethargic, and the population being complacent/deluded/subdued (at least this is chaging pretty fast in India, as limits have obviously been crossed by the powerful, rich, and corrupt).

Whether you like it or not, it WILL happen in a decade or two. If I had a say, I would implement in 3 years. IT security is growing leaps and bounds, so are the threats. But, manipulating the data on encrypted servers is not a childs play. It will definitely not be easy in 2020. Vigilant and Alert population like lokpal and lokayukta can monitor the system as an Admin. They will have certain limited privileges. The system will work.
If you do not understand what I am saying,I apologize.

[Muppalla]

Probably INC may have lost the plot this time. Though they thought of using Anna movement as a vote divisive tactic, the avalanche of discredibility that got so fast will be irreversible using political manuvering.

Sensing the situation, INC is trying to consolidate its base (minorities + dalits + some fringes). Hence the reason for seeing articles depicting Anna as communal. Mander, Roy and Bhukari statements are definitely in that line of thought.

Within six days, INC may have reached a stage where even a grand acceptance of Ann's Lokpal by RahulG may not stop its decent.

[Reddy]

Frankly, this whole business is going too smooth for Anna to believe. Something is not right, especially i didn't expect Cong govt to be so stupid that it allowed Anna to grow so big (my family has lots of chota mota congi leaders and i know what they are capable of). On the contrary, they helped him get there with the whole deal of taking him to tihar etc.

What if, as predicted, Rajmata comes to Anna, with R baba at his feet, says congress needs a mentor like you. Will you please join and help the prince in building a new India and Anna says YES. With prompt kick out of all the old tainted dhotis out (MMS, Chindu etc). Perfect check mate.

As for Indian public, it is very good at getting dejected as usual and will say, all this is our Karma, and get back to their routine.

I truly hope i am wrong on this one. And if by chance this turns out true - hope all the old dhotis fight back and show the true colour of the dynasty.

[rajanb]

And along with that will come a single computerized switch to fudge the data and skew the results across all these computers In a democracy there is no substitute for a vigilant and alert population who are willing to take action. The corrupt and the criminals rely on the system being slow, lethargic, and the population being complacent/deluded/subdued (at least this is chaging pretty fast in India, as limits have obviously been crossed by the powerful, rich, and corrupt).

Whether you like it or not, it WILL happen in a decade or two. If I had a say, I would implement in 3 years. IT security is growing leaps and bounds, so are the threats. But, manipulating the data on encrypted servers is not a childs play. It will definitely not be easy in 2020. Vigilant and Alert population like lokpal and lokayukta can monitor the system as an Admin. They will have certain limited privileges. The system will work.
If you do not understand what I am saying,I apologize.

Infact, the level of security that is available currently is what powers systems which run Large Stock Exchanges and the Large Bank ATM networks like SBI and BoA. SBI has the world's largest ATM network today. My last estimate was that it was upwards of 25,000 ATMs.

Computers to most people are the DOS/WINDOWS and UNIX based systems where security is laughable. You have to go in for the Big boys, where as Altair rightly said, access to databases and the system itself, is so tightly guarded that even what admin does is recorded keystroke by keystroke. These systems are practically bullet proof.

For those who want to read more and apologies for the O/T http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem_Computers

And it isn't a sales pitch because I retired long time ago!

[Aditya_V]

The problem is everyone is frustrated with the Goveranance level and open corruption by the beauracrats. everybody knows the Tone at the Top.

The challenge for the Media (where large parts act as PR wing of Congress) is 2 fold, a) show thier power to Congress leadership in order to make sure they get there share of the loot before the 2014 elections and 2) Make sure the BJP(the only viable alternative and threat) does not benefit from the Public frustration.

Ideally what Congress is Looking for in 2014 elections based on thier Goverence is to return with a UPA-1 type combination and they still retain power

[JwalaMukhi]

What if, as predicted, Rajmata comes to Anna, with R baba at his feet, says congress needs a mentor like you. Will you please join and help the prince in building a new India and Anna says YES. With prompt kick out of all the old tainted dhotis out (MMS, Chindu etc). Perfect check mate.

This is forcing the hand on Rahul to make him to cave-in to the demands. If Rhaul does, Anna wins. If Rahul doesn’t, he loses.

This Rahul is actually a nobody in terms of political achievements. Even by giving him a modicum of weightage, which brother hazare seems to be indulging in, he is actually propping him up as some heavy weight worthy. Probably, that's the game plan all along.
This also explains why Baba Ramdev was treated differently, because he had specific demands asking for the list of swiss bank hoarders be released, while brother hazare is asking for ski in the pie, very generic and useless demands. Well, if the idea is to put certain people in limelight and lift them up in the rankings, then this method would do good.

[anupmisra]

As an outsider, I would like to elaborate my take on the two recent events that made news (in the last 24 hours). There may be a remote probability that these two events are inter-related but lets leave that aside for the moment.

1. Imam Bhokhari's anti-Hazare statement

Indian Muslims, once again, stand at the cusp of history making (the last time was 66 years ago and many blew it) when they can either be on the right side of history and be part of a movement that will affect almost every Indian in a positive manner, or they can once again choose the religious (and perhaps a safer) way out by listening to their puritanical leaders at Jama Masjid in Delhi. Times are different. With technology and rapid information flow being as such, this time Indian Muslims have to take a stand openly on which side of history they want to belong. India or Mecca. My advice to IM members of BRF, please speak up now or be relegated to the back burners for another two generations. And, that latter option would be a sad event.

2. Arundhatti Roy's anti-Hazare statement

ADR is a self-serving "has been". I knew her back in college (that's another story for another thread) and she hasn't changed much. Such people rarely do. Unfortunately, for her, back then as well, she was on the wrong side of "change". Call her an attention grabber or a one-trick-pony or whatever. This is her last desperate grasp at seeking attention in an issue that she so champions with one group of people but derides the same issue when someone else has the stage for the greater good of India. In a way I am glad. If she had come out in support of Hazare's movement and started to participate in it, many would start rethinking their stands. She, in her own naive way, has done Hazare's movement a great favor by speaking up against it. At my age I can honestly say this to many of you who are much younger, such people who do not get the bigger picture usually end up as footnotes of history (at best).

That's all.

[gakakkad]

Did not this guy Rahul mehta once lurk around in BR and occasionally posted?

[gakakkad]

Frankly, this whole business is going too smooth for Anna to believe. Something is not right, especially i didn't expect Cong govt to be so stupid that it allowed Anna to grow so big (my family has lots of chota mota congi leaders and i know what they are capable of). On the contrary, they helped him get there with the whole deal of taking him to tihar etc.

Could you get them to talk something about the voting machines? Their is a CT that EVM's were rigged. So if you can get your relatives drunk sometimes and get them to vomit about EVM's the world would be thankful.

[Rahul M]

Did not this guy Rahul mehta once lurk around in BR and occasionally posted?

1631 posts at last count.

[sum]

^^ CNN-IBN ( resident INC outlet) now comes out with its version of 5 ways to end the impasse... guess must have been scripted in INC HQ and handed over to Rajdeep to put it onto national TV...

[gakakkad]

1631 posts at last count.

Yeah . checked his posts right now. Weird CT guy. The classic one was Advani taking bribe from saudi's to prevent national ID project so that illegal Bangladeshi immigration can continue so that Saudi's can control NE India. wow

[Sushants]

Things could still turn 180 degrees in favour of congress!

We know that Rev. Rahul Maino thinks that becoming a PM of this country is his birthright and he and his family are above the law,government and Indians.But the thing that is stopping his ascend to the top position is the education that India's young generation(20-40) has, that it cannot accept tyranny once again.and it cannot let another gasdhi to take control of their future.

So, he and his fellow conspirators are planning to do what his predecessors had done,ie create an illusion that their family reign will prove to be better solution of all problems ,in the minds of educated Indians. Also there is Modi,who is slowly gaining acceptance amongst muslims as well,because he is setting examples in his area of influence

It never escaped my mind that this situation will unfold in a way that is difficult to predict,as do all other things related to India's interests,yet I would like to make a prediction ,that rev rahul is almost ready to take a front seat position,he will take a leadership position now and the educated fools will forget all what congress has done, and will give him the PM's post in a platter,with a large majority in the next elections..

Congress will let the situation boil upto its maximum level, and then all rahul has to do is to come in front and support Anna oper heartedly..

This would trigger a major support wave in his favour,fired by the media, and then behold,we have our next PM.

NM's support to anna is already forgotten by the media
after that no one will talk about corruption

[Hari Seldon]

From twitter @shivAroor

>>The Subramanian Swamy effect at Ramlila Maidan: slogan now goes 'Bimari bahaana hai, Kaala dhan chhupana hai'

LOL only....

[Pranay]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 697193.cms

Chairman of the standing committee on Lokpal Abhishek Singhvi on Monday said differences between Team Anna and the government was not much on content but on the methodology and promised to present an "acceptable to all" bill within three months.

"You and I are together as far the objective and content is concerned. The essence is similar if not identical and that is fighting corruption. There could be relatively minor differences in form.

"If the ways are a little different, it is because the government is bound by a structure and parliamentary process," Singhvi said when asked whether the parliamentary panel could end up incorporating the provisions of Jan Lokpal Bill when it submits its final draft on Lokpal Bill to Parliament.

Noting that Parliamentary panels are given three months initially to give their report and it is generally followed by one or two extensions of three months each, Singhvi, however, said the panel headed by him will give its recommendations within three months.

"We will give recommendations on Lokpal Bill well before the three-month period given to us," he said refusing to be drawn into a debate on the deadline put by team Hazare.

"Competition in putting up conditions is not going to solve the issue," he said.

Hazare's associate Kiran Bedi, however, reacted sharply to it saying "Singhvi had still not understood the fever. To see the heat generated, they need to see it live."

These guys are so out of touch, even at this stage ...

[Pranay]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 697001.cms

"Hazare said that Lokpal Bill negotiations cannot happen with non-government mediators and added that he can talk with the Prime Minister's Office or Rahul. He also added that he was ready to talk with Maharashtra chief minister Prithviraj Chavan," according to the CNN-IBN channel.

In a similar development, Hazare's close aide Kiran Bedi said the activist wanted Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to send his representative to hold talks on a stringent legislation that will set up an independent and powerful anti-graft watchdog.

The anti-corruption campaigner also told the Marathi news channel that no official mediator has approached him "till now".

"He also said he would not speak to anyone without the presence of his advisers," according to the news channel.

Hazare reiterated his demand that the Lokpal Bill introduced by the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government in Parliament should be withdrawn immediately "as it was weak and cannot fight the corruption menace".

He also hinted at some flexibility on the issue of excluding judiciary under the ombudsman, and said this demand could be discussed during the proposed talks.

He, however, added that a proposed Judicial Accountability Bill must be strengthened if judiciary has to be kept out of the Lokpal's jurisdiction.

Hazare ruled out any future possibility of negotiating with non-political mediators like spiritual guru Bhayyuji Maharaj and senior bureaucrat from Maharashtra UC Sarangi.

The two were said to be involved in back-channel talks with Hazare but he denied it.

[ShyamSP]

Frankly, this whole business is going too smooth for Anna to believe. Something is not right, especially i didn't expect Cong govt to be so stupid that it allowed Anna to grow so big (my family has lots of chota mota congi leaders and i know what they are capable of). On the contrary, they helped him get there with the whole deal of taking him to tihar etc.

What if, as predicted, Rajmata comes to Anna, with R baba at his feet, says congress needs a mentor like you. Will you please join and help the prince in building a new India and Anna says YES. With prompt kick out of all the old tainted dhotis out (MMS, Chindu etc). Perfect check mate.

As for Indian public, it is very good at getting dejected as usual and will say, all this is our Karma, and get back to their routine.

I truly hope i am wrong on this one. And if by chance this turns out true - hope all the old dhotis fight back and show the true colour of the dynasty.

Anna as Gandhi and Rahul as JLN is not a far-fetched - added to that is another act of sacrificed Jesus Mata now battling with cancer adding a healing touch.

As Muppalla garu said things may still not work out for Congress. We know hunger strike precipitated by Chidu and Midas touch of Mata on her Birthday didn't work before at some micro level. If it works on macro level Indians deserve what they get.

[Pranay]

https://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?e ... 2454457123

Update for those in Auckland, NZ - Time and venue has been set...

India is going through a second revolution , WE NEED INDIANS in New Zealand to support the cause.

Supporting Anna Hazare..we will have a peace March to show solidarity with Jan Lokpal Bill.

Bring friends , Poster whatever you think that will help the cause.

Permission has been taken from Auckland City Council. The Time is 12 :00 pm Sunday 28th of August and the peace march is from Aotea Square to Custom Street ( and Back ).

Thank you for the support that you has been given to this movement from Day 1.

[IndraD]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 379772.ece

Advani asks MMS to step down, seek fresh mandate-Why is he asking MMS ? WHy can't BJP introduce a no confidence motion against the govt on own if they are convinced about the issue and support.

More surprisignly Team Anna has softened stand all of a sudden, today;

1. they are OK if the bill is not passed till 30th (ready for negotiation), wasn't Anna adamant on this?
http://www.newsbullet.in/video/india/15 ... i-bhushan-

2. Do not want govt bill with drawn (from what I understand)

3. Enough if JLB is presented in house as appendix

why this apparent 180 * change guru jan logo?????

[RamaY]

As long as AH and his team name 2Gs (Raul and Maino) as the main opposition, I do not have any hope on this agitation.

Reason is simple: by not naming them AH group is giving them legitimacy to negotiate. If AH want to talk to only GoI then why the hell he entertained SG and want to talk to RG now? INC wants exactly that.

[shravan]

If AH want to talk to only GoI then why the hell he entertained SG and want to talk to RG now?

Fake news planted by Nikhil Wagle from IBN.

[Murugan]

The numbers of people at Ramlila Maidan is techinically incorrect.

People keep on coming and leaving. It is difficult to keep track of actual people coming to Ramlila Maidan or any other IAC events across India.

[AdityaM]

If Anna is to give a character certificate to RG, then it will be a coup d'état of sorts.
it will give him the legitimacy that no MMS could gain for their character, whether his Honest PM tag or his 18 hour work days

who knows what the stars foretell!

[Aditya_V]

Did not this guy Rahul mehta once lurk around in BR and occasionally posted?

apart from 1631 posts, please note the National Bird of Pakistan designation. It may prove wise not to attract to much attention and obtain shahadhat.

[chackojoseph]

Defamation Bill 1988 was withdrawn after submiting to parliament. I just learnt it from a TV debate. P. Chidambaram was the introducer.

[gakakkad]

thanks for the warning. National bird and the guy in question clearly seem different people . Even though they share initials.


IB4TL 100 pages of this dhaga

[Aditya_V]

Trust me National bird is behind the Right to recall movement

[Altair]

Confirmed First Hand Information:
APJ Abdul Kalam is supporting AH. His PA is directing the efforts under his orders.

[Pranay]

Confirmed First Hand Information:
APJ Abdul Kalam is supporting AH. His PA is directing the efforts under his orders.

Good news - hope he comes out in public... hopefully share the dias on Ramlila grounds with Anna Hazare. will have have a salutory effect on more than one front...

[shiv]

Poor quality cellphone video - scenes from Bangalore's freedom park from earlier today. The momentum seems to be keeping up despite central government denials. Over a lakh and a halfpeople had signed and registered.

Click on image to view video

[sumishi]

Really cool, these protests outside elected representatives' houses.

[Muppalla]

Frankly, this whole business is going too smooth for Anna to believe. Something is not right, especially i didn't expect Cong govt to be so stupid that it allowed Anna to grow so big (my family has lots of chota mota congi leaders and i know what they are capable of). On the contrary, they helped him get there with the whole deal of taking him to tihar etc.

What if, as predicted, Rajmata comes to Anna, with R baba at his feet, says congress needs a mentor like you. Will you please join and help the prince in building a new India and Anna says YES. With prompt kick out of all the old tainted dhotis out (MMS, Chindu etc). Perfect check mate.

As for Indian public, it is very good at getting dejected as usual and will say, all this is our Karma, and get back to their routine.

I truly hope i am wrong on this one. And if by chance this turns out true - hope all the old dhotis fight back and show the true colour of the dynasty.

Anna as Gandhi and Rahul as JLN is not a far-fetched - added to that is another act of sacrificed Jesus Mata now battling with cancer adding a healing touch.

As Muppalla garu said things may still not work out for Congress. We know hunger strike precipitated by Chidu and Midas touch of Mata on her Birthday didn't work before at some micro level. If it works on macro level Indians deserve what they get.

Here is what I wrote earlier on this fast moving thread about the Congress party's strategy with respect to Anna and Ramdev :

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1149428

Congress may be great in strategy but things will not work in its favor always. Simply because it did not open one or two gates of the Bhakranangal dam. It opened all the flood gates in one shot and controlling it will be very difficult. It may be very difficult for the congress moles inside Anna's team. The phrase of the times is how "not to get discredited" by any actions.

Anna's team will be more discredited if they accept anything in their negotiations with RahulG or Congress party. Why? The BJP and RSS has put such a tight leash on what Anna does or not do. These crowds though dumb are not some vote banks like minorities or dalits. These are real swing of India and can overnight swing to anyside. Currently they see India's image is battered (may be in their own directionless perceptions) and they are really really mad at Congress party, UPA and for the first time even MMS is not being spared.

If Anna's team has to keep credibility, it has to talk with RG and INC but keep announcing as the talks failed. Otherwise it will be advantage BJP. These crowds which are really mad will vote to any thing but UPA. This is where I think Mohan Bhagawat has worked a nice strategy with respect to both BR and Anna.

There is news that some MPs of congress party are presurizing the Government and also high command to quickly wrap Anna's protest. The best for them is to accept the current Lok Pal (Anna's) lock stock barrel. Otherwise the first casuality will be Mamta with Pranab (a.k.a VP Singh) will go out of UPA. The government may fall as the partners see it as a sinking ship. They have to show some change in the form of removing MMS or some dramatic things. It is impossible to sustain the same way. Time is up.

It is a war of credibility and the future repercussions could be:
(1) If Anna does not start a party the votes will still go to BJP as madness is against UPA. We may see an anti-UPA wave in North and Western India.
(2) If Anna starts a party it could be Anna as PM and NDA as coalition it it. Though it is a long shot I see a possibility as BJP did not want to declare a PM candidate.
(3) If Anna or any of this team plays games to accomodate UPA, BJP may declare Namo as PM as he has the anti-corruption credibility in the ITVty crowds.

In simple terms Anna will not be able to deal with UPA if he wants to keep credibility in tact. Any changes to his plan may see a repeat of these crowds under Baba Ramdev.

Hence it is back to basics for Congress party and it is in the backup mode of "fall-back to base". In that persuit, minorities are being given messages via Dayals and Bhukaries. Manders and Roys giving the same statements is also interesting. The strategy is (1) telling minorties that we are your saviours (2) trying to make Anna as another saffron front singing Bharat mata ki Jai and Vandemataram.

By the way those who think that BJP is compromised under the so called Advani gang should read the following article on governance now by Ajay Singh. It is reproduced as pdf/image version on lensonnews.

http://www.lensonnews.com/extstory/governancenow/1.html

Time is up even for those brokers. See how they tried to hoist Anantha Kumar and when they conducted a poll, he got just four votes. So the changes for good are happening in BJP too.

However, we still need to watch the murderous congress party. It is led by several Robert Clives

[Rahul M]

Trust me National bird is behind the Right to recall movement

new CT ?

anyway, time for a new thread.