The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 19:51

Brothers,

People say Ana Sab is no MKG. Gandhiji made so many mistakes, in fact, his entire life was a mistake. But now we say Ana Sab is no MKG. Despite all his mistakes, we revere Gandhiji. Why ? Only because despite all his mistakes, he got one thing right. He was not corrupt. Not only was he not corrupt, he inspired people to be not corrupt. In Indian context not even God himself can claim that. But Gandhiji was non-corrupt. Therefore, we revere him. What is Ana Sab asking for ? For us to be non-corrupt. For that we say, he is no MKG. Maybe not. But he is also non-corrupt and he has inspired people and he has not made the mistakes that Gandhiji made, some very serious mistakes.

But dont despair, brothers, when you find scepticism on this forum for Ana Sab or Babaji. Dont despair if you find lot of second guessing and self-defeating talk. You see, we Indians, barring a very few exceptions, have corruption so much a part of us, it is almost genetic(almost, but of course it is not, in reality, genetic). We dont have the strident opposition to it in our hearts, that perhaps, other people might. We dont despise it, hate it, absolutely abhor it with every breathe we take. It doesnt repulse us, it doesnt cause us to throw up, even the honest amongst us, with very few exceptions. Therefore, even the best of us, even though, intellectually, we feel it is wrong, emotionally, we cant quite bring ourselves to condemn it to a point of ejecting it from amongst our midst. Therefore, all this hand wringing, and consipracy theories and second guessing of Ana Sab or Babaji. Even though, it is not about either of them, it is about corruption, we keep making it about them. We keep personalizing it.

All because, corruption has been with us for so long, it is like a sore we cannot live without. It is a pain, we will miss terribly, if it were to suddenly disappear. Of course, I dont mean to imply that there are no exceptions among us. There certainly are. All those people on Ramlila Maidan are just that, exceptions. But these exceptions just prove the rule. The political parties are correct from the standpoint of electoral politics. These poor exceptions that are demonstrating will not make an iota of difference electorally. What will make the difference are all the corrupt groups, such as the mobs, whether they be the union mobs, or castiest mobs or minority mobs. Why ? Because, brothers, neither we will leave corruption nor will it leave us.

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 25 Aug 2011 20:16

Muppalla wrote: I posted about a month ago a lensonnews survey about the vote bases. It was the first of such a survey ever conducted. Inspite of all the negative stuff, Congress party's traditional base of Dalits+minorities+tribals is verymuch intact. This base is invisible and you rarely see on media.

Chattisgarh, Orissa, and oveall representation in reserved seats do not bear this. minorities might have come back after PVNR.

I reiterate again - We do not need anti corruption or any other goddamn laws. We just need a simple electoral reform where the system should ensure 50% of the votes polled to the winner. The system will automatically solve all the problems afterwards as we will get good leaders into parliament.

would this be a 2 party system? Or further consolidation towards pre-poll alliances to reach 50%? UPA will be placed better there.

can there be a first past the post system for electing direct representatives to each constituency, and then a % of seats out of seats in a state, allotted to each party based on % vote polled in each state? This can give representation to parties that manage 5 or 10% vote share for a cause in a region or nationally. I am thinking of SSwamy - he did the most on 2G, fielded candidates in a lot of seats in TN, and may be managed some 5% vote. went without a single seat in TN assembly.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 20:24

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 736212.cms

BJP denies match fixing (without being asked..!

)

To be honest I have lost faith in a number of polls and pundits after NDA lost to UPA when the former were supposed to come back-some time back.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Aug 2011 20:26

shivajisisodia wrote:I am all for eliminating corruption as long as it does not negatively impact the value of my Reliance Industries and Tata Steel stock

Fighte corruption with exceptions

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 25 Aug 2011 20:33

looks like the dead lot has ended.....
Anna has asked for a written statement on 3 conditions....

though people in news quote it as Anna victory i feel Anna has come down on almost all the demands... like inclusion of Lokpal , CBI, ED and CVC under lokpal, citizens to file complaints directly about corrupt people.

lets see what happens... i guess now all the news will sing CON (I) song.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 20:37

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Aug 2011 20:41

BJP solidly behind your movement: Gadkari tells Anna

New Delhi, Aug 25 - Extending its full support to Anna Hazare and his cause, BJP today deplored the "changing stance" of the government on the Lokpal issue and emphasised that the Jan Lokpal Bill should form the basis for a strong and effective anti-corruption ombudsman.

In what appeared to be a step forward from its earlier position of supporting some provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill, the BJP said it was "solidly" behind Hazare and even suggested that the legislation should be passed at the earliest without getting entangled in rules and procedures.

"My party has been and will continue to be solidly behind your movement against corruption. We have always been and are for a strong Lokpal. For that to happen, BJP accepts your draft Jan Lokpal Bill to be the basis for a strong and effective Lokpal to be put in place at the earliest without getting into procedural wrangles," BJP President Nitin Gadkari said in his letter to Hazare.

The letter was handed over to Hazare at Ramlila grounds by a BJP delegation led by party general secretary Jagat Prakash Nadda.

Gadkari has also expressed shock over the government backing out of its promises made to Team Anna during the August 23 talks.

"I fail to understand where the things have gone wrong? Is the government not concerned about your health? Are there any internal bickerings within the government? If it is so, it is appalling," he said.

Hazare's emissaries had indicated last night that the government had changed the stand it had taken a day before, and maintained that the talks had virtually broken down. PTI

Now what are the next brilliant ideas to criticize (sorry abuse) BJP?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 20:45

The tune of Anna victory being played on media is to make Anna supporters feel better when in fact the bill hasn't been (even) tabled.

An atmosphere created where AH is pressurised to break his fast.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 25 Aug 2011 20:46

[youtube]ugufLbxgXsc&NR=1[/youtube]

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 25 Aug 2011 20:54

X Posting from Army Thread

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

Stating that the nation was in a "morass", Army Chief General V K Singh has said the support that the anti-corruption movement was getting was an indication of "power of democracy, power of people."
The country, he said, was passing through "an interesting and turbulent period.
"The theme is only one--how do we take the nation forward from the morass that we are in.... It is not who is leading the movement but it is why it has come to this stage," he said.

Very surprising for the Chief to make such a statement. But i am happy :0)

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Aug 2011 21:09

shivajisisodia wrote:Brothers,

People say Ana Sab is no MKG. Gandhiji made so many mistakes, in fact, his entire life was a mistake. But now we say Ana Sab is no MKG. Despite all his mistakes, we revere Gandhiji. Why ? Only because despite all his mistakes, he got one thing right. He was not corrupt.
<snipped><snipped><snipped><snipped>

That is the problem with us; we over look all mistakes and deify a person. It is one of our cultural minus points - resting tremendous onus and faith on one individual. Refusing to acknowledge that one individual could not have acted the way she or he did without able supporters and mass followers. The question who is better AH or MKG, no doubt interesting is valuable to assess different social and reform leaders our nation puts forward. The same culture, will not lose much sleep if it has to vilify individuals too. Except that vilification does not seem to have changed history.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Aug 2011 21:13

Here is Rahul Mehta ji,

An activist must confine to non-violent methods only. He must first prove majority supports his proposal. Then he may select non-violent methods used by Mahatma Gandhi or Mahatma Udham Singh or Mahatma Bhagat Singh or Mahatma Subhash Chandra Bose. I prefer the Mahatma Udham Singh as best. Each one on his own. (PS : Pls tell all that I, Rahul Chimanbhai Mehta, is the first one to apply prefix of Mahatma and Sant before Bhagatji, Udhamji and Subhashji . I do want credit for that).

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 25 Aug 2011 21:21

IndraD wrote:
vijayk wrote:We need to expose corruption in the media and their direct relationships with ruling parties.

For example, AP has Sakshi TV/Newspaper owned by Jagan, Deccan Chronicle - Congress MP
TN has Sun TV, Jaya TV.

We can rate them by their objectivity.

Any takers to that idea?

Very much vijay K, we need a separate thread on this.

For which we need mods approval.

I think we already have one thread on media watch with ample material some where.

May be facebook app. will check media watch thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Aug 2011 21:28

viv wrote:
shivajisisodia wrote:I am all for eliminating corruption as long as it does not negatively impact the value of my Reliance Industries and Tata Steel stock

Fighte corruption with exceptions

there goes!.. we have one billion odd exceptions to handle.

swamy ji, the four letter word is the only way to motivate folks then.

BENNY · Post by **BENNY** » 25 Aug 2011 21:39

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 25 Aug 2011 21:47

BJP and combined opposition parties planning to check mate Congress tommorrow. As soon as Jan Lokpal bill is presented they will ask for a vote on the issue.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 25 Aug 2011 22:19

SwamyG wrote:It is utopian to expect one or a few channels to be objective and unbiased. It is vibrant society that creates opportunities for different voices. These TV channels are voices for their political parties, and mushrooming of these should not be curbed. Let them evolve naturally, some will die in due course. Meanwhile, people get the opportunities to see and hear the different POVs. The problem will occur only when a party arm-twists another party from operating a channel.

It is not just being objective. They can express their opinions.

But when one guy starts Anna is Fascist there, there is an orchestrated articles from HT, Rediff, Hindu with the same theme, that is not divergence of opinions. The talking points are coming from same source and the scums are all repeating it via different channels.

If it is different POVs, they are welcome. But if they are part of cabal and sold for few bucks, then they need to be exposed.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 25 Aug 2011 22:46

sugriva wrote:BJP and combined opposition parties planning to check mate Congress tommorrow. As soon as Jan Lokpal bill is presented they will ask for a vote on the issue.

Those wily Chanakyan blokes them !

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Aug 2011 22:50

VijayK: Quite true. That is the problem when one has a few channels. The best way to tackle this is to have more channels with different views. This might interest you: http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... ing-india/

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 23:01

BJP and IAC (Kejriwal/Bhushan) are going very very lovey dovey for the cameras right now.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Aug 2011 23:02

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

Stating that the nation was in a "morass", Army Chief General V K Singh has said the support that the anti-corruption movement was getting was an indication of "power of democracy, power of people."
The country, he said, was passing through "an interesting and turbulent period.
"The theme is only one--how do we take the nation forward from the morass that we are in.... It is not who is leading the movement but it is why it has come to this stage," he said.

Very surprising for the Chief to make such a statement. But i am happy :0)

MMS probaly hates VKS more than anyone else. That is why he wants VKS to go at least one year early.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 25 Aug 2011 23:03

^^^ You mean puppeteer of MMS hates VKS

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Aug 2011 23:03

Sanku wrote:BJP and IAC (Kejriwal/Bhushan) are going very very lovey dovey for the cameras right now.

Do you think any more moves left? Or is it a V.Anand Vs Kasparov draw?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 23:04

Muppalla wrote:MMS probaly hates VKS more than anyone else. That is why he wants VKS to go at least one year early.

Army seems to have all but revolted with the muck raking the Govt did with the chief.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 23:05

Muppalla wrote:
Sanku wrote:BJP and IAC (Kejriwal/Bhushan) are going very very lovey dovey for the cameras right now.

Do you think any more moves left? Or is it a V.Anand Vs Kasparov draw?

There are always moves in life. The game never really ends.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Aug 2011 23:08

Muppalla wrote:Very surprising for the Chief to make such a statement. But i am happy :0)
MMS probaly hates VKS more than anyone else. That is why he wants VKS to go at least one year early.

VKS knows what Congressi/Psers tried to do to defence forces. he is just pointing out the rot we are in. If it was up to PMO, they might have appointed Fai as Army chief.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Aug 2011 23:26

Agnivesh and IAC broke up as of last 24 hours and BJP stepped in?

Grapevine news, dont know if its on public channels yet.

====================================================

Confirmed

http://www.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-team ... 78670.html

fantastic.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 25 Aug 2011 23:35

http://www.worldrecent.com/news/miffed- ... 04277.html

Miffed Swami Agnivesh Walks Out Of Team Anna

The ubiquitous saffron-clad Swami Agnivesh appears to be no more part of Team Anna, and he said so in so many words on Wednesday in an interview to BBC Hindi.

Swami Agnivesh told the broadcaster that since Anna Hazare was unwilling to end his fast and be put on drip, he has decided to stay away from the activities of Team Anna. “Because I cannot support fast unto death on principle”, he added.

However, Swami Agnivesh has told his close associates that Anna's movement was not in accordance with social justice, and he was thus dissociating himself.

In the interview, however, Swami Agnivesh denied there was division and differences in Team Anna.”There are small differences between the members but you cannot call it division. If the government agrees to introduce the Jan Lokpal Bill with some amendments, Anna should call off his fast”, the swami said. “But Anna is insisting that his fast would continue so long as the Bill is not passed”, he added.

Swami Agnivesh said: “Anna has refused to be put on saline drip. Had he agreed, the movement would have continued and there would have been no worries about his health.”

He added: “Anna has also asked his supporters to close the gates if the police comes to pick him up. This runs counter to even Anna's principles.” Anna had earlier said he would not resist if the police picked him up.

“I had told Team Anna from the very beginning that I have against indefinite fast unto death. Now since the circumstances have changed, I want to stay away”, said Swami Agnivesh.

The saffron-clad swami said: “Anna is now saying that he is listening to the voice of his inner conscience, but is telling the government to listen to the voice of the people. He is himself not listening to the voice of the people.”

Agnivesh has told his close associates that he tried to convince Team Anna about raising the social justice issue, but since the team members did not show much inclination, he decided to dissociate himself.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 23:36

On aajtak-Congress displeased with Team Anna on getting cosy with BJP.

Agnivesh asks Anna to end his fast, Acc to aajtak-Agnivesh unhappy over his treatment in Team Anna.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Aug 2011 23:37

VKS is one chief who was steadfast and consistent in his methodology of when to talk and when not to talk. We have to see this time as he clearly raised the ante by talking about corruption and Anna. You never know MMS may want to dismiss him this time around.

If BJP presses for a vote on Anna's version of Lokpal, it will be a political masterstroke. One it will be ensured for a defeat and BJP will take to the streets that INC is not interested in anti-corruption.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 25 Aug 2011 23:39

I do not understand if fast can be continued over dextrose saline drip. If so then a person can be kept on intra venous (total parenteral) nutrition by putting a cava fix (long IV line) in a big arm vein , a person can be kept alive in this way for months.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Aug 2011 23:49

IndraD wrote:I do not understand if fast can be continued over dextrose saline drip. If so then a person can be kept on intra venous (total parenteral) nutrition by putting a cava fix (long IV line) in a big arm vein , a person can be kept alive in this way for months.

only dextrose drips is not at all advisable...can be a disaster...maybe given only temporarily to counter ketosis.

TPN for months too can lead to disastrous consequences... Read about it in surgery kitab...

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 25 Aug 2011 23:50

Sanku wrote:Agnivesh and IAC broke up as of last 24 hours and BJP stepped in?

Grapevine news, dont know if its on public channels yet.

====================================================

Confirmed

http://www.bhaskar.com/article/NAT-team ... 78670.html

fantastic.

Agnivesh was a known Congress insider so it is good that they got rid of him. The best he could do is ferry messages and ferret strategy from IAC back to UPA bosses and play the devils advocate inside IAC.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 26 Aug 2011 00:59

Wasnt Scami Agniwaste the same guy who was batting for maoist dear dakktir Binalayak Sen

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 26 Aug 2011 01:03

Mahendra wrote:Wasnt Scami Agniwaste the same guy who was batting for maoist dear dakktir Binalayak Sen

OT Alert: From IBN Live TV report: Swami Agnivesh calls Binayak Sen a patriot

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 26 Aug 2011 01:07

Looks like the Anna committee is kicking out anti-nationals and letting nationalists in.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Aug 2011 01:47

anna has his way

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 49082.html

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Aug 2011 01:51

Agnivesh , ARoy and likes are by default anti-GoI however their hate for centrists/rightists/nationalists (or whatever one may wish to call them) is greater than the khujli to tow the anti-establishment line. It is not a coincident that the same bunch shows up together for the cause of Maosists/Naxals or even secessionists or terrorists turned politicians from the valley.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Aug 2011 04:24

Sanku wrote:
Muppalla wrote:MMS probaly hates VKS more than anyone else. That is why he wants VKS to go at least one year early.
Army seems to have all but revolted with the muck raking the Govt did with the chief.

Sanku have you seen this video:

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 26 Aug 2011 05:41

This thing about PM being honest is a big BS. Kanimozhi and Raja have minutes of the meeting where PM has Oked that there will be no auction of spectrum.
Nevertheless I would rather take a corrupt PM who can keep the other 540 MP's honest.