Indian Naval Discussion

nits · Post by **nits** » 02 Sep 2011 15:53

^^^ on above discussion

May be a Naive Questions - One thing which puzzles me is -

it was contacted on an open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the ‘Chinese Navy’, stating that ‘you are entering Chinese waters’.

As per reports; Indian Navy ship didn't find any chinese ship near by or on its radars... in that case when our Radard did not detected any chinese Asset nearby - how does they detected us.. ?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 16:00

Sri wrote:Lets concentrate defending ourselves. There is nothing to be gained by provoking the Chinese. They already shiver by the thought of rising India. India's growth and rise are irreversible. We do not need to prove or show anything to anybody.

The Chinese have not denied us access to south China sea. Same situation reversed in Arabian See, if a Chinese vessel en route to Gwadar comes close to Indian water is contacted on 'open channels' to state it's intention, there will be no BIG deal. Sailors and Pilots will tell you that these things happen all the time.

Also notice, there was no Chinese vessel in vicinity to actually challenge our vessel. China has stated claim to all islands in South China sea. They have done so officially in 2010. To support their claim they have to do this kind of exercise to demonstrate their sovereignty.

If we take a list of incidents as to how many times Rayal navy has done similar things then it will be quite scandalous.

What interests me is as to why this non event is getting so much publicity. Why are we hearing about Chinese threats to our security from western media all of a sudden. What is in their for them to make us scared of the Chinese? Any ideas?

@Sri.

Having worked in S.E. Asia for 35 years of my working life, I categorise Chineses into two types. Mainland and the others who inhabit the islands and smaller nations.

The mainland chinese are an outwardly agressive bunch and try to push you. And I have noticed, that if one pushes back they actually give you your space. Otherwise, they keep pushing just to needle you and for vicarious fun.

Considering '62 and then the incident inbetween ('87?) where we gave them a jhappad, the only thing, in my opinion to keep them in place, would be a stinging slap on their wrist. And if they see us being unruffled about things and giving it back to them in their own coin, they will well leave us alone.

Right now, we are led to believe that besides this incident at sea, they have been strutting in and out of our territory in the NE. A firm lesson is needed. And I agree with you that they contacted us on an open channel, without their ship in sight. So that if we growled back, they would cite the same "incidents" happening elsewhere as proof of just doing what they did, without meaning us any harm.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 02 Sep 2011 16:44

Is it necessary that the Chinese has to be involved in the spat...on record there was no Chinese ship in the nearby and i remember when mysterious radio command ordered Indian ships to move to Indian waters from the mouth of Karach some years backi!!!!

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 02 Sep 2011 16:53

Rajanb Ji, My own experience with mainland chinese is more or less same as yours. They fight for every inch. It is a nightmare finalizing a mutually beneficial contract with them. Contract itself doesn't mean anything for them. One of the main reasons why Chinese goods are cheap also because they don't factor in contingencies. This is true in regards with their world view. They fight and cry foul for every inch of space. Old saying, if u can't make em love u, then make em fear u, is ingrained in their strategic outlook. For all the hyperbola the CPC is afraid of a war. For them it is not a matter of winning or losing but they are really afraid that if they push anyone too much and force them to call the their bluff, it will expose their underbelly which is not so pretty.

Coming to the incident in question. Someone 'claiming' to be 'Chinese Navy' calls out to INS Airavat on open frequency asking for intentions. There are many things to note here.:

1) this is reported in western media not in Chinese media or Indian media
2) Chinese Foreign ministry spokesman said he has no knowledge of the same and his investigation resulted in no such confirmation 9you may or may not believe him)
3) Indian FM only reasserts India's right of way in international waters, but no one, says what the Indian response was?

What I mean is in absence of any assets in the region how come Chinese navy called out INS Airavat? Could it be it was someone else trying to prank INS Airavat?

Why does western media feel that this was a 'confrontation' when such incidents happen quite often?

You know, I am no great fan of the west or the Chinese. Hence I don't believe either of them. There seems to be a very concerted effort from west's end to make China as India's enemy No. 1. Now why would they do that? There are no definite answers but I can only speculate.

Number 1 reason is arms sale. Make the Chinese fear in India's heart so much that we escalate the procurement process. Specially for BIG ticket items.

Number 2 West may want to outsource the confrontation with China to us. This is an old technique. Drum up fear to a level that every Government and Mango admi just shivers with thought of 'the Chinese are coming' that we earnestly start competing / confronting China wherever we can. west itself has totally lost stomach to challenge CPC. Look how Biden had to e rushed to Bejieng after Stand and Poor's downgrade.

Number 3: It is very clear that Europeans know that US is not going to fight China for them. Nor will US allow arms sales to China. So a meaningful strategic cooperation and a meaningful defense against China are no more an option for them.

You know what will make the world truly shiver in their underpants? A truely great strategic partnership between China and India. If China and India were to become a bloc, it will go pretty much unchallenged. And it is this eventuality the west will go out of it's way to foil.

Anyways, like the military jingoistic wet dreams above, this is also intellectual masturbation. Indic and han just can't work together as a joint bloc. This we know for 10K years.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 02 Sep 2011 16:56

Samudragupta wrote:Is it necessary that the Chinese has to be involved in the spat...on record there was no Chinese ship in the nearby and i remember when mysterious radio command ordered Indian ships to move to Indian waters from the mouth of Karach some years backi!!!!

Exactly my point.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Sep 2011 17:07

Me think its just a prank and the media is just sensationalising it for some brownie points after MEA clarification its at worst an incident for the log book and at best a prank.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 17:07

@Sri sahib

Your reasoning is spot on. But keeping in mind the trawler incident, the NE borders, and now supposedly this incident. I think if our intentions are shown to be firm, fair and that we are capable of snarling once in a way, will make the Han think twice about tangling with us.

They just need to know that we can play the same game. it sounds childish, I know, but they seem to respect that.

It actually works wonders because you get a grudging respect.

If it was a prank call by someone, then it doesn't explain away the Vietnamese Ambassador's tough response. Unless, of course, he was acting tough to keep the Han on the backfoot?

As for the Han and Indic working together, I think it is very improbable, because I have never fathomed why the average Han actually feels inferior to us SDREs. A singaporean chinese once explained it to me as the mainlanders being scared of an Indian's intellect. Ofcourse this was applicable to my circumstanses. i.e the corporate world.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 17:42

I think its pretty simple. the only country in the world with the population and strength to deal with the chinese 1:1 is India. the others have neither the population or stomach to pick a fight across the ocean. Khan does have the muscle but not the political , social or economic ability to confront china anymore.

we are the only ones left in the ring, who have not 'accepted' prc as the big dog in the yard. and we are still quite poor, that must get on their nerves even more - a poor, rice n fish type country without the tech wizardry of khan, who has not even produced a proper icbm or domestic jet engine yet, tens of millions in abject poverty, filthy railway stations, weak and non-tfta roads, no HSR

, daily power cuts daring to provoke them and not paying tribute....thats gotta hurt.

whenever we fart or just scratch our behinds, they must imagine deep n dark khan conspiracies to use us as a cats paw.

a goonda does not feel any hurt if the local cop pounces and thrashes him, its expected. but a weak dhoti clad paan shop owner, rises up to his full 5' height, gather his betel nut knife, slaps the goonda hard and dares him in the village market...Owww that hurts....and it gives ideas to other rebellious villagers who would otherwise be cowed down

civilizationally we have a equal if not longer and glorious history, we have spawned 4 major religions and support huge nos of a 5th, vs china's 1, we have philsophical answers to every question any human has ever raised , our cultural exports span from Japan to Los angeles.....thats gotta hurt bad too.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 02 Sep 2011 17:47

^^^ I have a take on this Singha Ji. Time permitting, I'll reply on PRC page.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2011 17:54

OT

singhaji, get out of ITvity and start writing, you are wasting your skills.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Sep 2011 18:11

^^^

First order him to finish the incomplete scenario of the Mil scenario dhaga. Then he can quit his day job. It has been what 18 months before he actually started that scenario.

Else threaten him with a ban.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 02 Sep 2011 18:59

I have a question regarding this incident .
When the INS Airavat was returning after making the port call ,it being an amphibious ship would it carrying it's load of MBT's,troops and other equipment or would it be empty.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 19:04

Composite tech will be of great help to the Indian Navy.
To reduce weight while the ship can be huge. Other areas like stealth, faster building, lesser maintenance, better performance, lesser fuel ityadi ityadi.
Composite propeller for Royal Navy minehunter
http://www.compositesworld.com/articles ... ter%282%29

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2011 19:05

uddu ji, the P28 is is made of composites.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 19:06

aniket wrote:I have a question regarding this incident .
When the INS Airavat was returning after making the port call ,it being an amphibious ship would it carrying it's load of MBT's,troops and other equipment or would it be empty.

Will not be empty while going to Vietnam. It can carry Brahmos to be offloaded in Vietnam and load equivalent tonnage of gold to be brought back.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 19:07

Rahul M wrote:uddu ji, the P28 is is made of composites.

No Rahulji, some sections are. Not fully composite. The Mast is said to be composite. The contract for that was said to be given to some Norwegian firm.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 02 Sep 2011 19:10

Ha ha very funny .
But seriously when ships like these go out to sea what role do they perform and equipment do they carry.

nits · Post by **nits** » 02 Sep 2011 19:11

nits wrote:^^^ on above discussion

May be a Naive Questions - One thing which puzzles me is -

it was contacted on an open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the ‘Chinese Navy’, stating that ‘you are entering Chinese waters’.
As per reports; Indian Navy ship didn't find any chinese ship near by or on its radars... in that case when our Radard did not detected any chinese Asset nearby - how does they detected us.. ?

Gurus; any comment on my above Questions...

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 02 Sep 2011 19:16

The fact that this incident is being played down by the GOI is a testament that our babus have a serious case of the dhoti shiver.Most probably the Chinese ship would have been detected by the INS Airavat ,statements like these are just attempts to play the incident down.
I'm no Guru,but that is what I think.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Sep 2011 19:20

India to install coastal radar network on fast-track basis.

With reports already doing the rounds of an Indian Navy ship tailing a Chinese spy ship disguised as fishing trawler two months back, the Indian ministry of defence is apparently providing the final touches to a plan for setting up a coastal radar network along the country's coastline as well as that of the Maldives.

Reports suggest Indian defence minister AK Antony held a high-level security review on Monday over beefing up of coastal security.
The plan will likely include beefing up coastal security for a number of littoral nations such as Bangladesh, Mauritius and the already mentioned Maldives.

The project for setting up coastal radars will be undertaken at a cost of Rs602 crore and a contract for their supply will likely be signed next week with Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL).A top Navy official said BEL will provide nearly 46 coastal radars, with the first being supplied to the Indian Navy by October this year. The remaining 45 will be provided over a 12 month period.

India has sought to bring Maldives into the Indian coastal security setup as its waters are being increasingly targeted by Islamic jihadi groups and Somali pirates for attacks on countries and international shipping.

The island nation has coastal radars on only two of its 26 atolls. India will help set up radars on all 26 atolls for seamless coverage of approaching vessels and aircraft.

According to officials, the coastal radar chain in Maldives will be networked with the Indian coastal radar system. India has already undertaken a project to install radars along its entire coastline. The radar chains of the two countries will be interlinked and a central control room in India's coastal command will get a seamless radar picture.

The ICG will carry out regular Dornier sorties to look out for suspicious movements. While the two countries already have a security cooperation agreement against terrorism and piracy, the framework of a detailed agreement to include Maldives into the Indian coastal security grid was drawn up during the visit of defence minister AK Antony in 2009.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 19:22

aniket wrote:But seriously when ships like these go out to sea what role do they perform and equipment do they carry

Usually they will not be carrying any Marine force or tanks since this is just a port visit. But surely they will carry their weapons. Port visits or Port calls are part of Naval diplomacy and the Navy that do port calls try to showcase that we are here and we are your buddy kind of message. Those who are hostile gets a message that we can be here if you are not friendly towards us.
So it can be used in both ways. Since most of the countries in the ASEAN region are friendly, the message to them is that we are here for you, kind of a message and for China, may be we are here in your background.
Part of port visits include exchange of ideas, meetings and sometimes naval exercises.
The following report is about the INS Airavat visiting Cambodia
Indian warship docks at Sihanoukville port
http://cambodiatodayz.com/indian-warshi ... -port.html
THE INS Airavat, an amphibious warfare vessel of the Indian navy, made a port visit to Sihanoukville on Tuesday. This is the fifth visit by an Indian warship to Cambodia in as many years.

Part of the Indian Navy’s Eastern Fleet based in Vishakapatnam, the INS Airavat is capable of carrying 500 marines and 10 tanks. The ship is also equipped for humanitarian missions, and includes a fully-functioning hospital on board.

The ship began sea trials in 2008 and was commissioned on May 19, 2009, making it the third such vessel of the Shardul Class amphibious troop carriers. Constructed at a shipyard in Kolkata, the INS Airavat can operate at sea for 45 days and is named after the fabled albino, four-tusked elephant of Hindu mythology which was known as the mount for the Hindu god Indra, considered King of the Devas.

The ship carries two WM-18 rocket launchers, four CRN-91 AA 30mm guns, with a helicopter pad on the stern for its Westland Sea King helicopter.

Indian Commander Nitin Kapoor welcomed on board Cambodian Vice Admiral and Commander of the Cambodian Navy Tea Vinh and a coterie of senior Cambodian naval officers. Kapoor presented Vinh with a replica of the mythological elephant Airavat.

Indian Ambassador to Cambodia Rajesh Sachdeva said in his official remarks that Lord Indra was responsible for providing the rains and that the afternoon shower preceding the event was a blessing. He noted that the mythical elephant Airavat was visible at most of the Hindu temples constructed in Cambodia.

Indian navy officers were to visit a Cambodian orphanage yesterday as a way of assisting those in need in the Kingdom. The INS Airavat visited Brunei before docking in Sihanoukville. The ship will be making other port visits in Southeast Asia before returning to home port in India.
Added later: If there is any amphibious landing exercise planned, then surely tanks etc will be there. It seems India has not carried out any such exercises overseas.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Sep 2011 19:55

nits wrote:
nits wrote:As per reports; Indian Navy ship didn't find any chinese ship near by or on its radars... in that case when our Radard did not detected any chinese Asset nearby - how does they detected us.. ?

India, China deny tiff on high seas
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110902/main6.htm
An official spokesperson said Indian Naval warship INS Airavat paid a friendly visit to Vietnam between July 19 and 28. On July 22, INS Airavat sailed from the Vietnamese port of Nha Trang towards Hai Phong, where it was to make a port call. At 45 nautical miles from the Vietnamese coast in the South China Sea, it was contacted on open radio channel by a caller identifying himself as the “Chinese Navy” and stating that “you are entering Chinese waters”. No ship or aircraft was visible from the INS Airavat, which proceeded on her onward journey as scheduled, the spokesperson said.

The geography of the area is like this

The Sanya naval base of the Chinese is on the Island of Hainan (the island that can be seen off the Gulf of Tonkin.
If you move from Nha Trang to Hai Phong, you move in between China and Vietnam and the distance between them is nearly 300 km. So if you're 45 nautical miles or 80 kilometers away from Vietnamese coast, then you're around 220 km off Chinese coast. Land based radars may also be there on Hainan island or may be the area is under watch from Sanya naval base.
Added later: Now I undertand why Brahmos will be of great use to the Vietnamese. They don't need any ships. Just land based mobile systems, that can protect their coast pretty well and can target any Chinese surface naval activity around Spratly Islands and Hainan.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 03 Sep 2011 09:20

Veitnam says more Indian warships are welcome to its ports

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Sep 2011 10:41

According to officials, the coastal radar chain in Maldives will be networked with the Indian coastal radar system. India has already undertaken a project to install radars along its entire coastline. The radar chains of the two countries will be interlinked and a central control room in India's coastal command will get a seamless radar picture.

Good stuff...

Wasnt a similar thing being done at Madagsacar or off the African coast somewhere? Will that too be integrated?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2011 11:58

the Airavat likely has no air search radar. probably a chinese LRMP a/c hovering out of sight at 20,000 ft tracked it based on land based spies/spy trawlers reporting its departure and vectoring it on the expected course. I think she only has low power COTS navigation and sea search radar of the "kelvin-hughes" genre

http://www.stratpost.com/wp-content/upl ... iravat.jpg

it could even be a SSK at periscope depth transmitting on the radio. the airavath has no active or passive sonar or ESM to detect such bogies.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 03 Sep 2011 18:55

Navy squadron to complete induction of MiG-29Ks by mid-2012

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Sep 2011 03:05

'New Karnataka naval base won't eat into Goa operations'

Panaji : The newly-developed naval base INS Kadamba in Karnataka, a short distance from Goa, will not make the naval bases in Goa, especially INS Hansa, redundant, a senior Indian Navy official said Saturday.

Speaking to reporters, commodore Ravneet Singh said no military assets from INS Hansa would be moved across the border to supplement INS Kadamba.

?We would continue doing the same thing which we have been doing. There will be no shifting of assets from this base. (INS) Hansa will remain Hansa,? he said.

INS Kadamba, a massive naval project which was commissioned in 2005, was built as part of `Project Seabird? which was aimed at beefing up India?s maritime defences along the south western coastline. It is located in Karwar district of Karnataka, a few km from Goa's southern border.

INS Hansa, a major naval base, was first conceived in 1961 at Sulur, near Coimbatore and was later shifted to Goa in 1964, three years after the Indian armed forces liberated Goa.

Singh said INS Hansa was a key player as far as providing logistics to anti-piracy operations was concerned.

?IL-38 SD helps in tracking down the submarine and suspected ships in the Arabian Sea right up to African coast,? Singh said.

?INS Hansa also handles 30 to 45 civil flight arrivals every day. We have had a total of 12,440 civil flights and military 7,000 hours flying,? Singh said, adding that the Navy-run Goa airport at Dabolim, 35 km from here, had the record of highest departures of any civilian flights from the country.

ARay · Post by **ARay** » 04 Sep 2011 16:43

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/09/01/indi ... hina/72800

Looks soth china sea is going hot. Any takers on that????

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 04 Sep 2011 17:50

Going hot? We can't even admit that it happened.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Sep 2011 23:42

ARay wrote:http://www.inewsone.com/2011/09/01/indi ... hina/72800

Looks soth china sea is going hot. Any takers on that????

Augments the need for the 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (second planned in the Vikrant class). I would hope five of these would eventually (i.e. within 15 years) be built - one for the Bay of Bengal, one for the Arabian Sea, one for the S.E. Asia Sea based out of Port Blair, one for the Indian ocean (that can if need be back up the one in the S.E. Asia Sea or the Arabian Sea), one undergoing refit. I know I am dreaming.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 04 Sep 2011 23:45

Wishful thinking: Need a massive naval exercise involving the US, India, Japan, Australia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand et. al. in the S.E. Asia Sea.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Sep 2011 00:17

rajrang wrote:
ARay wrote:http://www.inewsone.com/2011/09/01/indi ... hina/72800

Looks soth china sea is going hot. Any takers on that????
Augments the need for the 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (second planned in the Vikrant class). I would hope five of these would eventually (i.e. within 15 years) be built - one for the Bay of Bengal, one for the Arabian Sea, one for the S.E. Asia Sea based out of Port Blair, one for the Indian ocean (that can if need be back up the one in the S.E. Asia Sea or the Arabian Sea), one undergoing refit. I know I am dreaming.

Change the above just slightly

An aircraft carrier is largely for offensive positions only! So, I would say one for Persian Gulf, one north of cape of good hope, one in the south china sea, one near the suez and one spare

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Sep 2011 04:25

rajrang wrote:
ARay wrote:http://www.inewsone.com/2011/09/01/indi ... hina/72800

Looks soth china sea is going hot. Any takers on that????
Augments the need for the 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (second planned in the Vikrant class). I would hope five of these would eventually (i.e. within 15 years) be built - one for the Bay of Bengal, one for the Arabian Sea, one for the S.E. Asia Sea based out of Port Blair, one for the Indian ocean (that can if need be back up the one in the S.E. Asia Sea or the Arabian Sea), one undergoing refit. I know I am dreaming.

With the current state of affairs, it would be a stretch to build 2 in that timeframe at CSL.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 05 Sep 2011 08:28

Indian Navy’s first P-8I to fly this month
Looks like Boeing is right ahead of the schedule.

Starting in Dec 2010, this is amazing efficiency.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 05 Sep 2011 09:48

ShauryaT wrote:
rajrang wrote:
Augments the need for the 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (second planned in the Vikrant class). I would hope five of these would eventually (i.e. within 15 years) be built - one for the Bay of Bengal, one for the Arabian Sea, one for the S.E. Asia Sea based out of Port Blair, one for the Indian ocean (that can if need be back up the one in the S.E. Asia Sea or the Arabian sea), one undergoing refit. I know I am dreaming.
Change the above just slightly An aircraft carrier is largely for offensive positions only! So, I would say one for Persian Gulf, one north of cape of good hope, one in the south china sea, one near the suez and one spare

Agreed, another slight modification, need closer to 90,000 tons intead of 65,000 to match likely future PRC carriers. Also the one in the Bay of Bengal could also augment the SE Asia sea or the Arabian sea as needed. Its home base is in the Bay of Bengal, but it could operate anywhere.

On a serious note, financially speaking, if India's GNP (PPP) will equal that of the US of today in about 20 or so years, then, India should able to (easily) afford the dozen 90,000 ton nuclear powered carriers that the US has today. Many of the US carriers were built when the US GNP was smaller in the eighties and nineties. This calls for building super carriers immediately. Even at the rate of one every five years it will be 60 years before India can match the US levels of today. However, that decision has to be taken today. Further, these projects will also create jobs in India and who knows might even accelerate Indian economic growth!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 05 Sep 2011 12:14

and when exactly should India start acting in her own Interests instead of either "matching" PRC or "surpassing" USA. I'm sure it would have occurred to you that in the future of naval warfare Aircraft carriers may well become obsolete (just like battleships in WW II), so keeping that in mind should we not evolve according to our strategic interests instead of TSP like ==.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 05 Sep 2011 12:20

rajrang wrote:
Agreed, another slight modification, need closer to 90,000 tons intead of 65,000 to match likely future PRC carriers.

More than 90k ton behemoths, we need subs and capability to deliver long range Anti-ship missiles from shipborn fighters.

I will really love to have our ship-born fighters to carry anti-ship brahmos.
that way our fighters can deliver death to enemy carriers from distance of 300km and staying out of the carrier's SAM range.
it will also enable our fighters to attack carriers without actually engaging enemy's ship-born fighters.

imagine mig29ks flying 10 feet above waves avoiding detection and then launching the gift to chinese carriers from 300km.

of course we can use our rambha taking off from Nikobar to deliver such thing but they will be good mainly in Indian ocean and Malacca straits.

to avoid such threat, enemy carriers will have to keep radiating 24x7 during war making them good and distinct targets

something in 450km range will be nightmare for enemy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Sep 2011 13:14

Even in the US there is much debate about supercarriers,too large,costly to build and operate.Many analysts want medium sized carriers/fl;at tops like USMC amphid vessels which are around 50,000+t which can "swing/cross-over" roles at will.These operate VSTOL US built Harriers very successfully,which by 2020 will start being replaced by STOVL JSFs.The versatility of VSTOL/STOVL aircraft cannot be underestimated as launch and recovery,"relative recovery",where an aircraft can safely land from any angle to the flight deck,without the carrier having to "sail into the wind" to recover conventional fixed-wing aircraft,which allows enemy subs to predict its course.

The RN are building their own 65,000t carrier which they have found to be the ideal size for operating sufficient aircraft and helos,strike and sortie rates,etc.The IN needs at least 3 carriers of similar size eventually,plus 3-4 amphib flat tops of mistral/Juan Carlos capability.These flat tops along with the unsinkable INS India,the huge Indian landmass ( and island territories) jutting dagger like south into the IOR's centre,can also operate LRMP aircraft and supersonic strike maritime bombers like Tupolev Bears,Backfires,Beriev amphibs and the new P-8Is.The galaxy of Russian aircraft can carry Brahmos super and hypersonic missiles and LR indigenous cruise missiles.Our geography gives us a ditinct advantage in the IOR,but we also have a new role to play in the Indo-China Sea,using Vietnamese ports and facilities where the Vietnamese have openly said that "more IN warship visits are welcome"! The more flat tops we have avaiable that are affordable and economical (!) to run the better.The threat in the future will be joint Sino-Pak ops using their large number of subs to infiltrate into the IOR and seek out IN forces in the Indo-XCHina Sea operating from Vietnamese and hopefully other friendly ports.

ARay · Post by **ARay** » 05 Sep 2011 16:56

Philip wrote: The threat in the future will be joint Sino-Pak ops using their large number of subs to infiltrate into the IOR and seek out IN forces in the Indo-XCHina Sea operating from Vietnamese and hopefully other friendly ports.

Exactly the same point I dwelled on few months back. Sino-Pak axis is on rolling and we can not even admit that. The fear is with discrete sub-threat, which is very real now. Carrier battle group is the featest answer but once again highly time consuming and resource hungry and far to come by. Whatever resources INS has, a small part of it may be put in either Vietnam/singapore port (lease or equivalent basis). Feel that south china sea--> Bay of Bengal will become a pot boiler day by day because it is the arena where Navies of two emerging global powers will flex the muscle. Once again time is short, and betting on CBGs only may become a costly price we may have to pay.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 05 Sep 2011 18:21

Okay boys and girls,

Here is the sarkari release
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=75583

the three ships under P-15A are scheduled to be delivered by March 2012, March 2013 and March 2014 respectively. Contract for four P-15B ships has been signed in January 2011, with delivery schedule as July 2018, July 2020, July 2022 and July 2024 respectively.

Paging Chacko Joseph.

How do the scheduled dates sit with the dates you shared with us a while earlier?