Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2011 17:29

There is no issue with opinion. It is with allegation - sell-out, bribe-taker, traitor, criminal, abusive language, etc. - that the problem arises. Please keep this in mind.

No one has a problem with reasoned argument, whether it is right or left or centre.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Sep 2011 18:08

Would be kinda nice if the dhaga could get back to its primary task of exposing the paradise that is Pakistan. Will happen eventually, I guess. Jai ho till then, I guess.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Sep 2011 18:32

negi wrote:As usual B Raman saar too like MMS shares a destiny with TSP

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... istan.html

So he asks a question

In this web of geopolitical complexities, what are the policy options before India? Should it keep adding to Pakistan’s feelings of insecurity and instability or take the initiative to lessen Pakistani concerns? Is it possible to lessen those concerns and help Pakistan rid itself of its anti-India reflexes without changing the status quo in J&K and without giving up India’s growing links with Afghanistan?
Look at the prilliant answer in the next paragraph.

Any exercise to demotivate the Pakistani state and help it to rid itself of its fears—which are seen by its army as real and by India as imaginary—has to start with frequent and sustained interactions between the institutions of the two countries: political parties to political parties, parliament to parliament, army to army, intelligence agencies to intelligence agencies, Foreign Office to Foreign Office, and Home Ministry to Home Ministry. Increasing institutional contacts are is as important as increasing people-to-people contacts to dispel the two countries’ imaginary fears of each other.

How should India and Pakistan increase their institutional interactions with each other? That is the basic question to be addressed, and it should be addressed in the context of an overall vision statement agreed to by the two countries. The imaginary fears are more in Pakistan’s mind than in India’s mind. India’s prime minister should take the initiative by visiting Pakistan to set the ball rolling toward an agreed common vision.

Hain salo ? For last 6 decades all you have been doing is having these chai-pakora talks with TSP and have a big ghanta to show for it and now suddenly the solution for the problem is chai-pakora again ?

I agree with you on the point you raised.

But you can't fault them for their effort to try to normalize the relation at every opportunity, like Pandavas did.

To understand B. R angle of approach

you need to understand that he was a Gov servant and still has contacts and know the pulse in his subject of interest. One of the characteristics of such person served in such high position is take cue from the Gov on the affair and act accordingly.

So if you want know his angle of approach follow the trails of Gov recent actions (several months/years) on this. When that beauty queen arrived here as Pak FM, check the statement made by Nirupama Rao.

As far as I read it, the Gov thinks they can buy/arm-twist certain section of Pak community who are facing the music from the barbarians to accept a peace deal. It appears there is strategic angle too in such deal. And there is US which is behind everything. You have to see for yourself and start from kachori/Mushy period to this day. That's why in his article B. R says, not every section of their country is radicalized. For questions like how far this goes/will it work etc - lets hope for the better with finger crossed - haven't we for the past 60 years?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Sep 2011 19:03

negi wrote: Any exercise to demotivate the Pakistani state and help it to rid itself of its fears—which are seen by its army as real and by India as imaginary

This is where BRaman Saar goes wrong. Poak army's act of being afraid of India is only for the Amreekis and the fools amongst the Indians. Their real motivation comes from their dreams of waging Jihad, slaughtering the unbelievers, unfurling the flag of Islam, Ghazwa-e-Hind etc. If a senior person like BRaman does not see this, it is a sad state of affairs.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Sep 2011 19:07

shiv wrote:If Mani Shankar Aiyar says "Go easy on Pakistan" one can (suppressing irritation and an urge to call him a WKK) say "Hmm that is what one would expect from such a person"

If BRaman says it we have the excuse "Oh he is getting old"

When Bharat Karnad says it what's up?

There is something that all of us are missing. Something that the MMS government is accused of not doing. There are things happening on the Pakistan front that are weird that we may have missed while we celebrate (rightly in my view) all the self inflicted injuries and IED mubaraks in Pakistan.

Like what? Explain

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 06 Sep 2011 19:35

Hey check it out

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stati ... 29679.html

India-Pakistan Borderlands

ISS028-E-029679 (21 Aug. 2011) --- A night time view of India-Pakistan borderlands is featured in this image photographed by an Expedition 28 crew member on the International Space Station. Clusters of yellow lights on the Indo-Gangetic Plain of northern India and northern Pakistan reveal numerous cities both large and small in this photograph. Of the hundreds of clusters, the largest are the metropolitan areas associated with the capital cities of Islamabad, Pakistan in the foreground and New Delhi, India at the top - for scale these metropolitan areas are approximately 700 kilometers apart. The lines of major highways connecting the larger cities also stand out. More subtle but still visible at night are the general outlines of the towering and partly cloud-covered Himalayan ranges immediately to the north (left). A striking feature of this photograph is the line of lights, with a distinctly more orange hue, snaking across the central part of the image. It appears to be more continuous and brighter than most highways in the view. This is the fenced and floodlit border zone between the countries of India and Pakistan. The fence is designed to discourage smuggling and arms trafficking between the two countries. A similar fenced zone separates India's eastern border from Bangladesh (not visible). This image was taken with a 16-mm lens, which provides the wide field of view, as the space station was tracking towards the southeast across the subcontinent of India. The station crew took the image as part of a continuous series of frames, each frame taken with a one-second exposure time to maximize light collection -- unfortunately, this also causes blurring of some ground features. The distinct, bright zone above the horizon (visible at top) is produced by airglow, a phenomena caused by excitation of atoms and molecules high in the atmosphere (above 80 kilometers, or 50 miles altitude) by ultraviolet radiation from the sun. Part of the ISS Permanent Multipurpose Module, or PMM, and a solar panel array are visible at right.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Sep 2011 19:48

Kanson I have a different take on this; firstly I do not like Mahabharata analogy thrown in every now and then as a mater of fact Kauravas were saints when compared to lunatics on our NW.

What has happened is decades of inaction and lousy pen pushing in name of strategic analysis or whatever one may wish to call it has encouraged and consolidated the so called pragmatic types who might be well versed with facts on ground but their take away from this manthan has been lets continue with talks (which in itself is not an issue); the problem is with every agreement signed between India and Pak it's us who have made a compromise , see for instance the way joint statements have been drafted, issued from Simla>Lahore>Agra>S.e.S every PM of India has bent couple of inches more than his predecessor to accommodate these loonies. What has this chai-pakora session to show in terms of results ? I will rest my case if someone gives me one good reason to continue with talks as against just treat them as any other country. Why this urge to give them a MFN status ? Why this eternal itch to increase people to people contact ? I don't see these dimwits putting half as much effort in connecting rest of the NE to mainland India, then there is this fig aka economics which is raised by some when it comes to dealing with TSP can someone tell me how much money is being wasted on Aman ki Asha, chai-pakora and obviously other gymnastics in the name of confidence building measures ?
I am pretty sure I have an idea or two as to how this money could be better spent.

Everyone talks about TSP's paranoia about India being a threat to it's existence and as to how we need to dispel this myth, my opinion is it's not the loonies on other side who are in dark it's the self appointed experts on this side who have been propagating this myth to support their stance else where in the world would you find a country which has attacked another on more than several occasions and continues to sends terrorists across the border and yet be able to play the victim ?

Leave India, TSP has not shied away from biting it's own master's a$$ and this despite getting millions of dollars of yearly aid; so what is the basis of the trust in the dialogue process ?

As I see things the continuation of dialogue process is in fact a vindication of the Paki strategy of bleeding India by thousand cuts for what it shows to the entire world is one can attack a country , send terrorists across the border and even bomb cities without having to pay a price for it, all it takes is some chutzpah on the aggressor's side and chootiy@p@ on other.

People often ask as to what could have we done ?

There is a lot ; don't have what it takes to pull the trigger ? Fine, let's start with doing away with this SDRE trait of following every treaty signed with TSP in letter and spirit , it's a two way street any way. IWT should be a good start you see the dialogue process would be more fruitful with a gun against TSP's temple , no ? We shall uphold the IWT provided TSP stops meddling in J&K. Please feel free to call me out if what I stated prevents India from becoming a 10 trillion dollar economy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 21:14

Jarita wrote:
Like what? Explain

You are intelligent enough to make an educated guess yourself. I am not privy to inside information. i will write my view point in a separate post.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 21:34

Altair wrote:Hey check it out

Literally a wall of fire, eh!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 21:37

RajeshA wrote:
shiv wrote:There is something that all of us are missing. Something that the MMS government is accused of not doing. There are things happening on the Pakistan front that are weird that we may have missed while we celebrate (rightly in my view) all the self inflicted injuries and IED mubaraks in Pakistan.
shiv saar,

what we may be missing is either information not in public domain, or a different assessment of the situation by analysts closer to the intelligence drip from Pakistan as they can interpret the happenings differently, through a different filter. It can just as well be that many feel there is a much greater danger over the horizon, again due to their proximity to some other intelligence drip. Or just wishful thinking.

I think we will have to question B. Raman and Bharat Karnad on this. Perhaps they can point out what we may be missing!

Clearly the earlier view was that armed conflict and an attack on Pakistan was not going to be entertained by India. The new view seems to be that even a "threatening posture" should be removed. That means that not only does India promise not to attack Pakistan, but India should remove all the military assets that Pakistan fears - assets that make the Pakistani army nervous. That is what Mani Shankar Aiyer and Bharat Karnad have stated plainly. And Bharat Karnad accused the government of not doing this and continuing to appear threatening to Pakistan. In fact so did MSA on TV.

This means that there is a general acceptance by India of the Pakistani accusation that they fear India and that India's assurances of lack of threat against Pakistan lack credibility in the face of massive Indian military assets facing Pakistan are being accepted by India. Pakistan has for long stated this and this Pakistani viewpoint/fear appears in a lot of American analyses of Pakistan.

So what is India going to do about infiltration, terrorism, fake currency, criminals in Pakistan etc? There is no information on answers to these questions from either Mani Shankar Aiyer or Bharat Karnad. In fact it is the government of India that is being accused by MSA/BK of not "going far enough" in appearing less threatening to Pakistan. The GoI is doing al the talking, but, according to Bk and MSA and Pakistan (and the US) continuing to "appear threatening" to Pakistan.

One possible meaning of this is that Pakistan is bullshitting as usual. But the fact that people are saying this so seriously could mean that the "Indian threat" is being used by the Pakistan army to stay in control and only a real and demonstrable removal of the Indian threat can cause the Pakistan army's stance to be questioned and its bluff called. This is my guesswork. Please do not ask me o answer questions based on my guesswork - you are all welcome to do your own guesswork.

What anyone proposes to do if the Pakistan army launches one more attack is not being stated, or maybe there is information that the Paki army is not going to attack with a huge part of its assets in the west. i don't know. MMS is known to have begged the US to control the Paki army and maybe they have promised something. i don't know. How far US promises will work is something that i would worry about.

No answers to many questions - but there appears to be a clear emphasis on going easy on Pakistan. How this will pan out when Pakistanis launch their next strike remains to be seen. They were not blamed for the last attack.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 06 Sep 2011 21:43

Back to regular programming. Pakistaniyat on display in OZ.
From Sydney Morning Herald (posting in full).
Pakistan withdraws cadet accused over shower film

David Ellery - September 7, 2011

Obaid Fayyaz has been withdrawn from ADFA on disciplinary grounds. Photo: Gary Schafer

A PAKISTAN Air Force cadet charged with secretly filming a female cadet in the shower at the Australian Defence Force Academy has been removed from the campus by his government.

''Cadet Obaid Fayyaz has been withdrawn from ADFA on disciplinary grounds,'' a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) spokesman said in a statement from Islamabad.

''The matter is under investigation in Australia and a decision [on Fayyaz's future] will be undertaken on completion of the proceedings.''

Fayyaz, 21, returns to the ACT Magistrates Court on Friday to answer an act of indecency charge.

He allegedly hid a mobile phone in a vent above the shower.

The female cadet, 21, discovered the phone on on Thursday, August 25, and reported the matter to the Australian Defence Force Investigative Service.

Police arrived at the academy about 11.50pm and a mobile phone, a laptop computer and a USB memory stick were seized.

''[Fayyaz] has been withdrawn from training, and accommodation has been arranged for him in accordance with bail conditions that stipulate he does not contact or approach (the) female cadet,'' the PAF spokesman said.

Fayyaz, a keen cricketer described in Indian media as ''a high-achieving engineering cadet'', was inducted into ADFA in January.

Defence has confirmed he was withdrawn from training ''pending further review as the court case progresses'' and said the Pakistan high commission had arranged ''alternative accommodation for the officer cadet in accordance with his bail conditions''.

They included surrendering his passport, not approaching a port of international departure and agreeing not to ''approach or in any other way contact, assault, threaten or intimidate'' the alleged victim. He cannot go within 50 metres of the female cadet.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/pakistan ... z1XBxSYtkE

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Sep 2011 21:44

^^^ India's success (relatively speaking) with Bangladesh may have prompted a rethink with regards to Pakistan.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 06 Sep 2011 21:47

Pakistan is introducing Chinese as Compulsory language class VI onwards.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/chine ... ols-131404

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2011 21:55

sanjeevpunj wrote:Pakistan is introducing Chinese as Compulsory language class VI onwards.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/chine ... ols-131404

Not Arabic ?
Kuffar personified, Pork eating China can now be officially called The Auliya of Islamic Kabila of Pakistan. A leper sucking on leopard.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 06 Sep 2011 22:01

From Tribune (posting in full). Now TSP is blaming India for Karachi riots. MMS speech writers better watch for any Faux Pas from the PM when he meets any TSP politician and then issues a joint communication.

Decrease in Karachi target killings is temporary: DG Rangers

Published: September 6, 2011
KARACHI: DG Rangers Sindh Ijaz Chaudhry said that the decrease in target killings is temporary and criminals will again try to disrupt peace in Karachi, Express 24/7 reported on Tuesday.

Speaking at a news conference in Karachi, Chaudhry feared that most of the criminals have fled to other cities due to delays in the operation.

He assured the public that indiscriminate action is being taken with the help of police against all criminals, no matter which party or group they belong to.

The DG Rangers Sindh said the security agencies are trying not to disturb the public and their cooperation will be sought in cases of extreme emergency.

Chaudhry also said that if powers of police remain with the Rangers, they will manage to eliminate extremists.

The DG Rangers Sindh said that foreign hands are also involved in destabilizing Karachi.

As reported earlier, Sindh Information Minister Sharjeel Inam Memon had said foreign elements are involved in the recent spate of terrorism in Karachi and the arrested killers had disclosed during interrogation that they had been trained in India.

According to police statistics, about 29 target killers and another 653 suspects were apprehended and 167 weapons were seized in the 985 raids from August 23 to September 4 during the search operation in Karachi.

The Rangers claim to have nabbed nearly 236 suspects and 327 weapons in operations in about 30 areas.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 06 Sep 2011 22:12

From Tribune (posting in full). TSPian student imitiating his western peers when it comes to campus shooting.

Riphah University student guns down vice principal

By Syed Ali - Published: September 6, 2011
Shahzad had earlier been expelled by the administration, but was enrolled once again after his parents pleaded with university authorities to allow him to continue his studies .

ISLAMABAD: A student at the Riphah International University (RIU) in Rawalpindi shot and killed the vice principal of the institution on Tuesday.

Khurram Shahzad, a final year student at the university, shot dead Vice Principal Brig (R) Sanaullah in the incident which took place around 10am on the university campus.

Shahzad managed to smuggle the weapon onto the premises without being noticed by security guards. He proceeded to enter different departments on campus and fired four shots in total.

Shahzad also fired shots at other teachers and security guards, however, the vice principal was shot at point blank range and died on the spot. The body has been taken away for autopsy.

The accused has been taken into custody and is being interrogated by police.

A member of the HR department of the university said that Shahzad had been enrolled since 2002, and had repeated his fourth year four times. He had earlier been expelled by the administration, but was enrolled once again after his parents pleaded with university authorities to allow him to continue his studies.

RIU authorities said that Shahzad was suffering from depression, and had attempted suicide in the past, adding that his mental state was “questionable”.

RIU is located in Rawalpindi. It was established in 2002 by the Islamic International Medical College Trust (IIIMCT) and is a non-profit, non-political, non-sectarian welfare organisation registered with the government of Pakistan.

It is chartered by the federal government.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 06 Sep 2011 22:18

Re. going easy on Pakistan. If we assume for the moment the validity of this policy, whats the counter set at for paki perfidy. A hundred ala sisupala. Is that debatable openly. I think it should, even if it means talks with such clear terms would rankle the pakistani counterparts they are dealing with. The people paying the price in blood need to know.

Today its the large Indian army buildup, which, if not for the seriousness in the proposal by folks who matter would be downright funny. A burglar asking the man who has armed himself after repeated attacks to discard arms since the burglar finds it threatening when called to renounce violence and lead a normal life. What if tomorrow, the same paki folks say, you see its bollywood and the paki bashing in some of them thats giving them kujli or some inane reason.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 06 Sep 2011 22:24

sanjeevpunj wrote:Pakistan is introducing Chinese as Compulsory language class VI onwards.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/chine ... ols-131404

So other than officially declare themselves as a vassal, everything else and more is being done.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 06 Sep 2011 22:49

From Tribune (posting in full). TSP's energy crisis if not resolved can bring more trouble for the currency/economy and if resolved will lead to white elephants like Enron. It sucks to be TSPs energy minister.
Energy/fiscal policy: It’s going to get done quietly

By Farooq Tirmizi - Published: September 3, 2011
The finance minister’s race to fix the energy crisis before the populists notice.

KARACHI: Finance Minister Abdul Hafeez Shaikh is racing against a clock. He knows that he has before the announcement of next year’s federal budget to fix the power crisis or else risk causing even more crippling damage to the nation’s energy infrastructure. The team at the finance ministry, however, appears to have come up with a plan, and not a bad one at that.

Though he was still a merchant banker at the time, Shaikh must have seen how the administration of former president Pervez Musharraf, after running an exceptionally tight ship when it came to fiscal responsibility, lost the plot entirely when election time came around – promising utterly unaffordable subsidies at a time of skyrocketing global commodity prices, running up the deficit and paying for it by simply printing more money, causing skyrocketing inflation.

Shaikh knows that as bad as Musharraf’s last year was, the Gilani administration – being a democratically elected left-wing government — is going to be even worse. He needs to lock in fiscal discipline now, before the calls for the poorly defined, yet frightfully expensive concept of ‘relief’ start flowing in from the simpletons in the media and even some of his own cabinet colleagues.

Energy subsidies equal between one-half and one-third of the budget deficit. If there were no subsidies, the government would be able to meet its budget deficit targets.

But in election season, the politicians from all sides of the aisle will start screaming for even more energy subsidies than the government currently spends now. And the minister can kiss all chances of restricting the budget deficit goodbye.

And so, the few people in the finance ministry who are committed to long-term planning have come up with a plan as simple as it is devious.

It goes something like this: first get the government, including the prime minister, to acknowledge the energy sector’s financial crisis (caused by the government’s inability to pay the subsidies it promises) as the primary problem. Secondly, propose a solution, including clearing the entire backlog of inter-corporate circular debt in the energy sector to get the power companies and refineries to start producing again at full capacity.

Thirdly — and this is the crucial part — do so by getting an international donor to finance the solution who will demand that the long-term problem (unaffordable subsidies and poor government management) be solved up front.

This is why the government is seeking financing for a solution to the circular debt problem from the Asian Development Bank. The ADB appears to even be amenable to a solution, willing to exchange all outstanding liabilities that the energy companies owe each other for cash. The Manila-based lender, however, is likely to demand a complete privatisation of the power distribution companies (eight of the nine in the country are state-owned) and an end to subsidies.

The populists — which include parties as diverse as the old leftists of the Pakistan Peoples Party and the young, naive crowd of the Pakistan Tehrik-i-Insaaf — are likely to scream that this is tantamount to giving up national sovereignty. In truth, it is.

But in fairness, the finance minister tried to persuade the country to do the right thing for its own sake without having to get a foreign lender to force us and the nation — through its elected representatives and the voice of the media — outright refused. Now Shaikh has to do it the hard way.

A lot can still go wrong, of course. The prime minister and the president may not get on board with the finance ministry’s solution (the petroleum ministry seems to be allied with the finance ministry but the water and power ministry seems opposed).

But one hopes that the finance minister succeeds in his plan. If he does not, the rupee is likely to plunge by close to 30% against the dollar in 2013 and inflation and interest rates are likely to flirt with 25%. How do I know this? Because the country made the same mistake in 2007 and paid for it that way in 2008.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 3rd, 2011.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Sep 2011 23:09

The DG Rangers Sindh said that foreign hands are also involved in destabilizing Karachi.

As reported earlier, Sindh Information Minister Sharjeel Inam Memon had said foreign elements are involved in the recent spate of terrorism in Karachi and the arrested killers had disclosed during interrogation that they had been trained in India.

About the training in India of the killers:
1. The Pakistanis are lying
2. The Pakistanis are telling the truth

There are two broad opinions on BRF
A. MMS's approach to Pakistan is OK
B. MMS's approach to Pakistan is Not OK.

Question - will the various critics give their opinion,E.g., suppose it turned out to be true that India is training killers for Karachi mayhem, would that make B. less likely?

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Sep 2011 23:22

^ Sir why do you wan't to assume things or for lack of a better word see things when there is no indication/hint/evidence to prove it ? It is of course '1'; the guy in question Ajmal Pahari is a well known MQM hitman .

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 23:25

A_Gupta ji,

it is too hypothetical. I don't know how much credence to give Mr. Zulfiqar Mirza, but in his press conference, he was made claims that Altaf Hussain has said that America has decided to break Pakistan, and Altaf Hussain and MQM are with America's Agenda. Till then, Altaf Hussain said, he would continue to kill Pathans.

So it could be the case that groups like MQM are indeed being supported by CIA, Mossad, MI6

.

Indians may not have any part. Even if we do outsourcing onlee, no policy making. Even if MMS is doing what you propose, he could still be doing it to oblige these agencies and not out of considerations of a muscular Indian policy towards Pakistan.

But I think the chances are unlikely that we are doing something in Karachi.

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 07 Sep 2011 00:00

ChandraV wrote:
shiv wrote:

Opinions vary. defence.pk has an Alexa world rank of 12000 or so. BR is 40,000
What better stories? Do share?
Defence . pk having a high Alexa rank is expected. If you want BR to have a comparable rank, it can be done in less than a couple of months. All you need to do is to open BR for Gmail/Yahoo/Hotmail free accounts. In less than two months, you'll have your Alexa rank - I guarantee it. Whether BR wants to do that is a different matter though

I have been to defence.pk .. never signed up however. The forums seem like a bunch of teenagers boasting Pakistan's capabilities against India.
I like BR the way it is... We should not open BR for free accounts... Maybe change our main website layout though.. but thats it.
OT, sorry.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Sep 2011 00:09

Afghan police release Taliban phone recordings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1l6zJz6f7s

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Sep 2011 00:56

Dear BRFites,

A few days back, ramana garu entrusted me with a task of collecting various solutions to Pakistan, that I have been developing over time, into a book.

ramana wrote:RajeshA, Please consider making an e-book of all your posts in different categories. I would like them to be ready by November end. Would like to have it peer reviewed by December end. Then release them in end of January.

So I have decided to put it all in a book!

However I am a very poor graphic designer! So I am looking for some help with a cover! It would be best if somebody would be willing to discuss some creative ideas with me, and then do it. Best if the volunteer has sufficient time.
Secondly if somebody can draw maps or rather do outlining of areas, etc. along already established district, province, country borders, then I will appreciate that very much.
Anybody who wishes to contribute to the book, you can send me some contribution of say no larger than 500 words. Any solution that I am not writing about, I'll incorporate as a section in the book. Most of what I'll be writing is already in the "Managing Pakistan's failure" Thread, with some sprinklings in PoK Thread or the various TSP Threads. I would suggest not making general or comprehensive solution suggestions, but some particular targeted solution suggestion. I hope one can understand, that it will be up to my discretion what gets included or not.
I would very much appreciate if somebody contributes a military perspective of taking PoK. The book is mostly about strategy, with little in the form military knowledge in it. But considering how crucial PoK is, I would like to have one chapter on that. Basically it should be mostly about some history, challenges, present situation, India's military needs, the future, etc. This can be several pages long.

The Structure of the Book:
Working Title:
Breaking the Pakistan Jinx

Table of Contents

Prologue: Defining the Jinx
Gazing in the Crystal Ball: Scenario Building
Countering Pakistani Nuclear, Terror, Ideological, Irredentist & Other Threats
Breaking Pakistani State
Squeezing Pakistan
Cutting off Pakistan's Friendly Lifelines
The Psychological War
Gaining Influence in Pakistani Society
Effecting pro-Indic Demographic Changes in Pakistan
Solving J&K

All contributions would of-course be duly credited (either name or BRF username). I will be accepting contributions only till September 20, 2011.

I have quite a few emails from my distribution of my earlier e-book. Many would also have my email. Those who may be interested, can let me know their email address in Off-Topic Thread.

Thanks for your attention.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 Sep 2011 01:03

I guess what I'm asking is would you be happier if India was indeed taking an active role in fomenting violence in Karachi? If it was MMS's policy, would it make them feel happier about MMS?

My answer is No and No.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Sep 2011 01:14

A_Gupta ji,

I am completely in favor of India giving MQM as much firepower as they want. Mind you it is not just for the sake of causing mayhem and seeing Pakis getting killed. That is just useless statistics.

IMHO MQM can play a very relevant part in neutralizing Pakistan.

If MMS has realized that, then I would be very glad. But somehow I doubt that he would think on such lines.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 07 Sep 2011 01:38

A monster roaming the world

Hope this is not posted.

The West has spent billions trying to buy Pakistan's friendship but the jihadists are stronger than ever, writes Paul McGeough.
Search for a firm footing in Pakistan and there is none - all is quicksand … strategically, politically, morally.

In the leafy garrison town of Abbottabad, an hour's drive north of Islamabad, Osama bin Laden, mastermind of the attacks of September 11, 2001, was able to hide in plain sight for years. The location of his fortified bunker, a stone's throw from a prestigious military academy, made it harder to give any credence to the generals' repeated denials that significant elements of Pakistan's extensive security apparatus sheltered the al-Qaeda chief and continue to give succour to the Taliban and other insurgency and terrorist movements.

In the south-west, in the wilds of provincial Baluchistan, there have been 150 ''kill and dump'' operations this year. Most of the victims are Baluch nationalist rebels. Their killers are the Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) and other elements of Pakistan's national security forces - driven to brutality by a belief, which could be correct, that Pakistan's arch foe, India, stirs the local nationalist pot. In turn, the Baluch nationalists are accused of running their own death squads - their victims are Punjabi ''settlers'', government workers brought in from other parts of the country.

West from Baluchistan is the sprawling port city of Karachi, where the spiralling death toll in renewed ethnic turf-wars gives raw meaning to what local novelist Kamila Shamsie broaches obliquely, recounting how the city ''winks'' at her. "Yes, the city said, I am a breeding ground for monsters, " she writes, "but don't think that is the full measure of what I am."

Just south of Islamabad is Rawalpindi, a more typical Asian city than the sanitised and empty boulevards of Islamabad. As home and headquarters to the men and institutions that comprise Pakistan's military and intelligence establishment, this is the centre of absolute power in Pakistan. And it is here that a deep-fried sense of humiliation over the American raid to kill Osama bin Laden, in May this year, is felt most acutely.
"After the bin Laden raid, it's a question of the survival of the state," the defence analyst and director of the South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, Maria Sultan, says. "The problem now is that by this very public humiliation, the US has lost its biggest supporter - it's not the capability of the Pakistani military that is affected, it's its credibility."

When men in uniform were filmed recently murdering a detainee, the reckoning in human rights circles was that far from being a lapse of judgment, the recording had been allowed in the knowledge that its distribution on the internet would serve as a useful warning to the wider community.

But a July study by the New America Foundation of 32 ''serious'' jihadist terror plots against the West from 2004 to 2011, finds 53 per cent had operational or training links to jihadist groups in Pakistan - compared to just 6 per cent being linked to Yemen. And the rising tempo of the drone attacks has failed to dent the rising frequency of Pakistan-linked plots against the West, the study finds.

But when we ask a Pakistani diplomat how secure were the weapons in the aftermath of the US mission to kill Osama bin Laden, he replies: "Less so, now that the Americans have revealed to the world that it is possible to sneak into Pakistan undetected, to take something that you really want."

Bruce Riedel, a veteran CIA analyst, sets out the connections in Deadly Embrace: Pakistan, America and the Future of the Global Jihad. "…Richard Nixon turned a blind eye to the murder of hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshis to keep his friends in Pakistan's army in power, a strategy that ultimately failed," Riedel writes. "Ronald Reagan entertained Zia-ul-Haq even as Zia was giving succour to the Arab jihadists who would become al-Qaeda. George W. Bush allowed Pervez Musharraf to give the Afghan Taliban a sanctuary from which to kill American and NATO soldiers in Afghanistan."

A visitor leaves Pakistan wondering if anyone here speaks the truth.

An adviser to several US administrations and now with the Brookings Institution, Riedel sees Pakistan under siege from a syndicate of radical terrorist groups unified by the notion that nuclear-armed Pakistan could be the extremist jihadist state they have never had.

"They want to hijack Pakistan and its weapons," he says. Alluding to Islamabad's role in creating a monster, as often as not with Washington's sponsorship, he writes: "An extremely powerful jihadist Frankenstein is now roaming the world, with equally powerful protectors in Pakistani society, right up to the very top.

"Who cannot fear that the 'long beards' will prevail?"

long article

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 07 Sep 2011 01:41

x-post:

US Senator Mark Kirk (who took over Barak Obama's seat in the senate) is also a U.S. Naval intelligence officer has returned from a 2 week deployment to Afghanistan. And he has seen enough to reach some conclusions about the Pakisatanis.

Senator Kirk: Stop aid to Pakistan

Following a two-week deployment to Afghanistan, Sen. Mark Kirk, a U.S. Naval intelligence officer, is offering a bold proposal to save the United States money and punish a disloyal ally: Cut off all aid to Pakistan.

Furthermore, Kirk would invite Pakistan’s neighbor/nemesis India to take over the United States’ leadership role in rebuilding Afghanistan after the United States begins pulling out this year.

“I think the United States should tilt toward India,” Kirk said.

Pointing to a map of Afghanistan, the Illinois Republican told the Sun-Times Editorial Board Tuesday that the newest hot spots in the Eastern region around the capital of Kabul are coming under the influence of the “Haqqani network” which is based in Pakistan and protected by the Pakistani government and military.

“As much as the Pakistani officials claim otherwise, the Haqqanis are backed and protected by Pakistan’s own intelligence service,” Kirk said. “Statements by Pakistani government officials to the contrary are lies.”

While the government of Pakistan does cooperate with the United states on “two dozen” captures or killings of Al Quaida officials every year, the Pakistani government’s protection of forces that are killing American troops outweighs the benefits of U.S. support, Kirk argued.

Continued aid to Pakistan is “naive at best, counter-productive at worst,” Kirk said.

“Building schools and hospitals in Tajikistan, which is for us, might help the same number of human beings on the planet,” Kirk said.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Sep 2011 02:11

2 weeks is all that a fresh mind needs to figure out paki perfidy. Unfortunately, SD, top mil echelon and status quo'ists then drum out this thinking and then its same ol' same ol.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Sep 2011 02:12

krisna wrote:A monster roaming the world

Hope this is not posted.

jr^2 posted it a page or two back.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Sep 2011 03:18

Kirk saab outs TSP (again) and something amazing quickly follows:
al-mauritani captured(since al-libbi was indisposed)

Even unkil can't be stupid enough to fall for this new bout of cooperation. Or so we can hope.

saip · Post by **saip** » 07 Sep 2011 03:29

Come September and Pakis celebrate 'Defence of Pakistan Day' i.e. how they single handedly defeated evil Hindustan forgetting that they are the ones who started the war and lost it handily (their own hero the Xerox Khan has admitted it in so many words). This is probably the result of decades of brain washing their so called 'history books' did to them. What is surprising is that in this day of internet they could have easily verified the facts and come to proper conclusion but the unwashed abduls refuse to do that and prefer to wallow in their own ignorance. Can this Pakistan be salvaged without reducing it to a sheet of glass?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2011 03:35

A very interesting few pages of discussion on B.Raman ji's article/counter accusations against him/assessments. May he get well sooner.

I remember vaguely that a long time ago he was referred to on the forum as perhaps having made some comments about the forum being possibly dominated/populated by rightwings/"hindutvavaadis". Apologies if I recall this wrongly. But if he appraently really did something like that - he was also stereotyping. All of us do stereotyping - and it seems to happen with the most intelligent/most dedicated all the way through to the far more less dedicated/committed ones. If we could have forgiven him or tolerated him for his supposed remarks - we should be able to forgive or tolerate the opposite end of the spectrum too.

The question of proximity to "information" has been raised here. Which makes some people much more "reliable" or "reasonable" apparently in their conclusions - say about Pakistan. Which is very possibly true to a great extent. But one thing is being missed here. Too much information - could also lead to two different types of dangers.

First danger is that of "tagging". If a person is officially in a position where he is known to be getting information/seeking information/ and analyzing them for potential policy decisions - then he may attract deliberate misinformation, or cleverly entwined misinformation within correct ones. Of course superior intelligences would have thought of all of this and keep multiple sources for cross-checks. But it is still possible to release informations from centralized disemination mechanisms combined with tactical visible ground movements - which will give a coordinated "disinformation".

Second danger is that there can be a saturation of false/semi-false/true information all mixed up together - so that a time comes when the analyst no longer sees value in any of them. This is a process of conscious rejection and wipe-out of what is seen as old ideas which are no longer working - without perhaps being aware that some of this rejection could the result of an earlier failure to recognize the real processes.

Over and above all this, perhaps the larger issue is whether an analyst also consciously analyzes himself. Is he aware or constantly trying also to explore the basis of his own ideologies - value-systems - and axiomatic proclivities, and their changes over time and experience? If he had really made that "stereotyping" Hindutvavaadi comment - did he stop and think as to what internal or subconscious processes brought out that reaction in him?

Trying to be "neutral" is a sadly funny business - because it forces one to be constantly over attentive to the two extremes one is trying to be neutral - relative to. Thus the "purely" neutral person is in constant and unsure undefined "middle ground", and perhaps much much more aware of "extremes" than those he clubs as extremists.

Because of lack of clear cut ideological or value-system commitments that can order given situations or positions, over-anxious to be "neutral" persons in constant touch or with a heightened awareness of "extremes" are always at the risk of at one point of time, identifying with one of these extremes as a means of ideological certainty.

I think it is most important to encourage what we call WKK-ists. I have always opposed badmouthing even the Paki aam, and opposed lambasting them as people. People are not targets of criticism - it is what they do, their ideological apparent drives, as matching with actions [people run multiple identity forgeries - they may represent themselves as one of many according to opportunity and hopes for gains - not necessarily of silver but also of esteem and power] - which are targets of criticism. Perhaps my WKK-ism shows in this too - because I have always stood for a future of absorption of both the people and the land into India.

A huge test of proper WKK-ism comes up when anyone expressing overwhelming softness for parts of Pak - people/culture/gov/society whatever, is asked his feelings about whether he would be ready to accept inclusion of Pakistani people and territory into an enlarged future India. Inevitably - the greatest love for Pakis in the form of WKK-ism mostly appears to accompany an intense anguish at even the thought of incorporating these dearly beloved people and lands into close societal proximity.

Not wanting Pakis in our midst - while becoming "soft" on them as a rashtra/people - is the height of self-deluding deception. But then again, such turns of ideological attitudes over a life time, and given high-ranks and exposure to "information" - should be studied. I would see it as almost inevitable and a good illustration as to how people in position could have gone towards greater accommodation with hostile ideologies in our history - while having fought such ideologies for a major part of their lives. This is no accusation against B.Raman ji - but for me a curious window into a very real intellectual process. A very crucial process needing observation and studying.

Without encouragement of free expression of such thought processes - how would we study them?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 07 Sep 2011 03:36

Denmark's Pakistan ambassador arrested travelling to Osama bin Laden complex

Uffe Wolffhechel and his wife were detained for two hours for visiting the area without authorisation and then sent back to Islamabad, officials said.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 07 Sep 2011 05:39

brihaspati wrote:A huge test of proper WKK-ism comes up when anyone expressing overwhelming softness for parts of Pak - people/culture/gov/society whatever, is asked his feelings about whether he would be ready to accept inclusion of Pakistani people and territory into an enlarged future India. Inevitably - the greatest love for Pakis in the form of WKK-ism mostly appears to accompany an intense anguish at even the thought of incorporating these dearly beloved people and lands into close societal proximity.

Not wanting Pakis in our midst - while becoming "soft" on them as a rashtra/people - is the height of self-deluding deception.

Great point B ji.

IMHO the obverse of that is also to be studied - those who profess to hate and seek to destroy Paki society, but shrink from engaging at a people-to-people level with them or at a personal level with their culture/religion, etc. Both attitudes, one clothed in WKKism and the other in jingoism, belie a lack of self-confidence and the power of one's own culture to envelop and be of benefit to others. Both are actually based on the computation of mutually exclusive two-nation theory, with only an uneasy peace or mindless war between one and the other, and no manthan . Both don't understand love and war taken together.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Sep 2011 06:17

Bji,

The real question comes down to marriage. Ask if they will give their daughter in marriage to a Paki.
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Let me tell you I have engaged with several Paki's and Indian Muslims in Massaland. As a Christian I tend to get a free pass from all of them. It is hard to type cast them but Pakis suffer from several 'mental blocks' that can never be over come. This makes it really really hard to get through and discuss substantive items with them. Its like trying to talk to a person in Hawaii about 20 different types of snow. Thomas Kuhn calls it a lack of matching world views. The truth can be blazingly obvious and right in front of you but the brain re-interprets the info to match your world view. Here are some of my observations.

- Very poor English. Even amongst the TFTA rape class. Sometimes there are good speakers but almost never well read. The discussion on this page could never occur with the vast majority of RAPE.
- Large gaps in knowledge about the world. This I put down to a social lack of interest in the world. Every conversation I have keeps running into this stumbling block. I recently ran into one who simply had never heard of the Bali bombings. The discussion then descended into whether Bali was in Indonesia or Malaysia! These were doctors mind you. I shut my mouth and listened to the stupidity flowing and realized there is no redemption here.
- Overt Misogyny. They have no problem coming out and saying women are less than men because they are weaker and their brains are smaller/emotional! This makes them very suspicious of anything said by a woman.
- Gatherings tend to quickly degenerate into Men in one room and Women in another. This makes it hard to have a substantial conversation as they tend to clump together and there is always a self appointed Mullah who makes sure everyone says their prayers on time even if most are non-religious. Any substantive discussion is quickly nixed by the 'mullah' saying its time for prayer. Kaffir is literally asked to sit on pavement outside during said prayers.
- Herd mentality. They chose to listen to the most forceful individual. Almost every last one is a camp follower of someone else. In desh no one follows anyone else and we are proud of it.
- Marrying cousin Ayesha/Abdul from back in the sticks. Might be the worst problem with the RAPE class. They never get along it seems like. Some the Wife is beaten into submission while the Abdul gets to lord over the house. And this is for women who are born and lived in Massaland too. Can't even imagine how much worse things must be back in TSP hell.
- They spend 20 times as much time volunteering/hanging out in the local mosque as they do interacting with the world. The latest trend in Massaland for the Mosques to run pre-schools where young Abdul/Ayesha are put under gentle tutelage from age 3+. I had one sad case who was shifted after much fighting by the mother from Islamic school to Montessori with my daughter at Age 6. Three days after joining the school she went and told another child that she would 'burn in hell for eternity' because what she was doing was against Allah. That was the end of that and the child was tactfully asked to leave. Felt really really sad for the mother.

These are just a few of my observations. I'm sure others will have more. Before talking rationally with RAPE we need to have answers for these roadblocks.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2011 06:21

Carl ji,
if you notice, the "obverse" is not self-contradictory. They hate the Paki society - and they dont want any truck with that society's religion/culture etc. No inconsistency like WKK+"No Entry" position.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Sep 2011 06:55

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ India's success (relatively speaking) with Bangladesh may have prompted a rethink with regards to Pakistan.

We should explore all possibilities. Consider the following statements:

1. If Pakistan leaves behind all Anti-India activities and is willing to live with us in peace, not friends, but in peace -- Like Sri Lanka, India should encourage that possibility

2. If India assesses that Pakistan will never live in peace with India, and will radicalize its society in an attempt to hurt India, India should smile and shake hands in public, make concessions which have no impact on our security, while sharpening our knives secretly.

3. If India assesses that Pakistan will be a bigger threat as a province of China than as a terrorist cess-pit, India should do WKK-Chai-Biskoot to avoid that possibility.

4. Without thinking about the eventualities (1), (2), (3) above, India should instigate a civil war inside Pakistan of More pure against less pure, by strengthening the less pure.

5. Without thinking about the eventualities (1), (2), (3) above, India should make conciliatory gestures towards Pakistan so that it is treated as an international headache and ignored by the international community.

What do they have in common?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Sep 2011 06:55

Theo ji,
I agree on all points. My consistent experience in desh as well as outside - from feudal/professional Muslim to peasant/"kaath"-mullah[before anyone jumps in righteous indignation at the abuse of genuine Islamics - this is a commonly used term in lower GV, literally meaning "wood" or as dry/rigid] circles. There is so much hogwash I hear about this "softness" bit, and more of it I hear usually from people who have met Islamic society from a position of power, and at a "frontage" that is astute enough politically to present the right "front" from the Islamic side. These are people who have never really "lived" within Islamic society at a daily interactional level at "lowest" social strata - never really have had to confront mullahcracy politically without backing of state machinery.

As you, I speak from experience - real, tangible, intimate social experience. It is not that the aam Muslim is an inhuman, or subhuman species. They are as human as us, subject to the same conditioning, blindnesses, perceptual pitfalls. Their social conditioing makes them so. This conditioning takes place onlee because of the Islamic institutional power of the mullahcracy, and early brainwashing training from childhood in the same doctrine. It is the Islamic institution and the mullahcracy who derive power and sustenance from it - who stand between us and the aam Paki.

The whole problem of Pakistan is its mullahcracy, which was behind its formation. Paki feudals or military responsible - is again a hogwash. Non-Muslim subcontinental society had its own feudal and military component too. What they lacked was the mullahcracy - and they failed to become Pakistan. Without the mullahcracy the Paki feudals or military ambitions would have been as surely digested as the non-Muslim ones have been.

I know what Islamic institutions and mullahs play the role as. Subtract them, wipe them out, erase them from the picture - we can and should and will have the people "back". But there is no point in calling for a love-fest while protecting the mullahcracy and its institutions. Every respite would be used simply to prolong existence and gain strength - for the never deviated from target of conquest and genocidal erasure of all else before mullah rule.