Artillery Discussion Thread

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 30 Aug 2011 09:24

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2011 09:47

The way things are going the only way the 155MM gun can be inducted by the Army would be to make the gun at home. The ghost of Boforse strikes back.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 30 Aug 2011 20:25

The MoD and especially AK Antony needs to be rounded up and run through a lathi charge several times for this artillery fiasco. I am so ****** sick of this well over-used of delaying the acquisition of the guns I think the IA needs to raise a huge cry over the latest moves by the MoD. It might even be necessary that some generals fall on their swords to get the point across to GoI establishment.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 31 Aug 2011 06:45

A few months ago I had mentioned starting a post with names of all corrupt officals involved in arms kick back.. That back than was not considered acceptable..with all the spotlight on the corruption..How is that we cannot list details on the officals who are on the other end of the corruption. Afterall this is a two way street.. so if company X bribed offical Y...who is this Offical Y and why is there no spotlight on them..

These corrupt officals are worst than spies from across as they have managed to cause more damage. And at that end, these guys should be give the right punishment ...be it capital punishment. ( I am Sofa king Mad)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Sep 2011 14:06

Just check this video of Archer and see the level of automation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QoVvtPqXY

Damn, what would a brigade of these with 5 regiments do to the enemy? Oh! for the love of motherland, please get us these or any modern gun...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2011 15:51

Rohit,

I hope I will not have died of old age before any such gun sees service in the IA.

PS I don't care for any particular product as long as it is a modern and capable 155mm piece.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 17 Sep 2011 17:06

more in the glory of archer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIG-p9k6 ... re=related

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2011 20:38

Pratyush wrote:Rohit,

I hope I will not have died of old age before any such gun sees service in the IA.

PS I don't care for any particular product as long as it is a modern and capable 155mm piece.

More realistic assessment would be such guns being seen with IA before my grandchildren are on their deathbed...have already written off seeing them in mine and my children's lifetimes.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 17 Sep 2011 20:48

sum wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Rohit,

I hope I will not have died of old age before any such gun sees service in the IA.

PS I don't care for any particular product as long as it is a modern and capable 155mm piece.
More realistic assessment would be such guns being seen with IA before my grandchildren are on their deathbed...have already off seeing them in mine and my children's lifetimes.

If Sukhoi/Brahmos platforms can be designed and multinational system can be incorporated, thereby leveraging adjecencies and also resulting in mutually profitable unlocking of hidden values and synergizing practical efficiencies, perhaps this does look probable.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Sep 2011 21:45

rohitvats wrote:Just check this video of Archer and see thelevel of automation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QoVvtPqXY
...

On the contrary it seems to show the lack of automation. Its 'pod' has only 21 rounds(in ready to fire mode) which it can use up with in 3min! After which it has to be manually reloaded at a painfully slow pace(shown very nicely at the start of the video). Kinda like having a really fast automatic rifle with only one magazine.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 17 Sep 2011 22:16

Archer would be a political suicide for any govt... The best we can hope is Caesar...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Sep 2011 23:20

saurav.jha wrote:Archer would be a political suicide for any govt... The best we can hope is Caesar...

Well, let us just have the guns.....Caeser/archer/atmos....anything. this nonsense from congress has gone on for a very long time.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 18 Sep 2011 08:45

rohitvats wrote:
saurav.jha wrote:Archer would be a political suicide for any govt... The best we can hope is Caesar...
Well, let us just have the guns.....Caeser/archer/atmos....anything. this nonsense from congress has gone on for a very long time.

Agreed saar jee,

btw thanks for posting that article on the IA giving a bloody nose to chicoms, I started strolling through the CLAWS site and lo and behold ended up on this article.

The line that really caught my attentionw as this:

A contract for the acquisition of two regiments of the 12-tube, 300 mm Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with 90 km range was reported to have been signed with Russia's Rosoboronexport in early-2006. This will be a major boost for the long-range firepower capabilities of the army. If this weapon system had been available during the Kargil conflict, Pakistan's brigade HQ and forward airfield at Skardu and other targets deep inside POK could have been hit with impunity.

http://www.claws.in/index.php?action=de ... =70&u_id=7

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Sep 2011 11:09

^^^We have three of these regiments.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Sep 2011 09:00

rohitvats wrote:^^^We have three of these regiments.

We have ONLY three Smerch regiments and a couple of Pinaka refiments, we should aim to induct atleast 10-15 Pinaka/Pinaka II regiments apart from Brahmos/Shaurya/Prahaar missile regiments.
Rohit, a chaiwaala wa telling his PAanwaala that he hear from hihs Dhobi that there is a new Missile Brigade in eastern India near a steel city. Have you heard anything like this?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2011 09:14

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^We have three of these regiments.
We have ONLY three Smerch regiments and a couple of Pinaka refiments, we should aim to induct atleast 10-15 Pinaka/Pinaka II regiments apart from Brahmos/Shaurya/Prahaar missile regiments.
Rohit, a chaiwaala wa telling his PAanwaala that he hear from hihs Dhobi that there is a new Missile Brigade in eastern India near a steel city. Have you heard anything like this?

Nothing of the sort, yet.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Sep 2011 09:17

sum wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Rohit,

I hope I will not have died of old age before any such gun sees service in the IA.

PS I don't care for any particular product as long as it is a modern and capable 155mm piece.
More realistic assessment would be such guns being seen with IA before my grandchildren are on their deathbed...have already written off seeing them in mine and my children's lifetimes.

I hope to see them bash some Pakis i.e. if pakistan survives till the guns arrive

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Sep 2011 09:20

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^We have three of these regiments.
We have ONLY three Smerch regiments and a couple of Pinaka refiments, we should aim to induct atleast 10-15 Pinaka/Pinaka II regiments apart from Brahmos/Shaurya/Prahaar missile regiments.
Rohit, a chaiwaala wa telling his PAanwaala that he hear from hihs Dhobi that there is a new Missile Brigade in eastern India near a steel city. Have you heard anything like this?

I was very scared of going to any sundry chaiwalla and paanwala. Now I am scared of even dhobi. God heelp mee !!!!

K

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 19 Sep 2011 11:08

mostly words ... but some information/confirmation
NSC for review on blacklisted firms

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2011 15:46

if the Archer types have 21 ready use rounds and charges, just shows what a true SP platform like Pzh2000/DenelT5 brings to the table.

- they can go everywhere the archer truck can and then beyond
- the operating crew are better protected both in firing and transport
- around 80 rounds and charges are carried internally
- gun breech area is internal and not prone to external damage/dust
- full NBC protection

going one step further Khan's cancelled Crusader had a proposed automated reload vehicle on same chassis. at present the Pzh/T5 feed in the fresh load of ammo manually using a side door or rear sliding drawer system, which than moves them internally using powered devices.

a single Bhim could have unleashed 80 rounds in a few mins - flattening an entire village before moving back across all terrain to its reload trucks. I have seen a youtube video where a entire regiment of 15 x Pzh stand hub to hub and cut loose - its like SRT, Yuvraj and Viv richards going after a cub spinner lol truly a scary sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_9pcNT_Qs

a interior video showing its rate of rapid fire...the loader feeds in the charge bags manually here though I think a automated mode is also there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=CR ... ion_189968

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Sep 2011 21:48

wiki Aunty has the following about SDRE BMP-IIs...

105mm Self-Propelled Gun - This is OFB's mechanized version of the Indian Light Field Gun (EQPT 105/37 LFG E2) with 42 rounds stowed. The gun is mounted in a lightly armoured turret. The 105mm SPG was shown for the first time in public in February 2010 during DEFEXPO-2010 in New Delhi and is planned to replace the FV433 Abbot SPG in the Indian army.

Has this been inducted into the IA or is it still a DRDO proposal / prototype? Even couple of regiments of SP 105mm Howitzer with adequate reloads would pack a punch. This can be a good INTERIM solution while we wait for some magical 155mm SPH to drop from heaven.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Sep 2011 18:29

One of the proposed systems advantages is the ability to switch shell types quickly on a one by one basis allowing an illumination round to be followed by a point detonation round, to be followed by an area effect round. This would give the system the ability to fire different rounds as required by different fire calls or to change types of shells. For instance, destroying a building then engaging anyone fleeing the area with the next round.

Can Pzh2000/DenelT5 do such things?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2011 18:34

which proposed system is being referred to?

afaik all these SP turrets feature a internal electrically operated magazine to hold the shells and charges. the shells are somehow ided automatically perhaps by reading some colour marker or rfid tag so the gunnery console knows exactly which types of rounds are stored where. after that it can fire any sequence of shells, albeit just as the "seek time" of a hard disk the distribution of shells in the magazine determines how quickly the nearest desired type is fed into the breech.

even a unit of only 2 Bhims going into burst fire mode for a minute could pump out 10 shells each, basically landing 20 shells nearly simultaneously using trajectory selection to make the first shells fly longer and last shells shorter (multi round simultaneous impact). with each shell packing around 40Kg HE, thats 800 kg of hit on target. lot cheaper than dialing up a Jaguar to drop 4 x 200kg bombs on target from 250km away. and unlike airplanes this is immune to any form of air defence. once you launch its going to hit something.

tracked SP is a in class of its own in the support of mobile columns or pure self-contained nuisance value/hitting power.

unfortunately Khan has gifted to the pakis around 150 x M109A5 155mm SP guns which will no doubt cause us plenty of damage in any war.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Sep 2011 18:43

>>which proposed system is being referred to?

Successor to Crusader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Com ... d_Vehicles

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 20 Sep 2011 18:50

Singha wrote: unfortunately Khan has gifted to the pakis around 150 x M109A5 155mm SP guns which will no doubt cause us plenty of damage in any war.

That's exactly why it has been gifted...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Sep 2011 19:24

The Khans existing SP arty is lacking in innovation. The truly innovative system would have been the Crusader cancelled by the Khan. If the NLOS Cannon performs as intended by the Khans then you are looking at ground breaking systems.

Anyway all that is academic due to an absence modern desi 155 MM guns. SP or other wise. Even a truck mounted weapon will be a great step up from the current mess the IA is in today.

Does any one has any chai wala sources that can tell is how far along is the desi 155 mm has come along.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2011 02:15

akimalik wrote:mostly words ... but some information/confirmation
NSC for review on blacklisted firms

So AKAji effectively implemented CBM to assure TSP that IA not only doesnt have the guns but its ammo is also short range.

Great job as Raksha Mantri.

So far he has done the maximum to ensure Armed Forces have minimum capabilties in the last fvie years.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2011 10:04

>> The Khans existing SP arty is lacking in innovation.

agreed the M109A5 is not as powerful in automation and range as the newer systems like T5 or Pzh2k, but its a proven system and available in huge nos with the khan field armies, 150 of these with the pakis is not to be sneezed at, even with the 39cal barrels. and being tracked and fully mobile they will be hard to catch and easily evade counter-battery fire even if we instantly localized them and loosed off salvo in return.

methinks the best way is perhaps impose air superiority over the battlefield and use night-capable helicopter gunships and ATGM armed UAVs to attack their supply and armour columns from the darkness as well as help MLRS units to attack their artillery positions.

our LCH Dhruv and in future the armed Rustom has a critical and pathbreaker role to play in this game, as Mi35 is too clumsy, the Apache/Mi28N buy too few in number and the WSI dhruv not ideal for this role.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Sep 2011 11:32

^^^

Singha Ji, the idea is one that is near and dear to my heart as well. But I will prefer the Indian solution in the name of LCH over the Ah 64 and the Mi 28.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Sep 2011 04:29

Great video on the Caesar 155mm gun!

Nexter Systems - Caesar 155mm 52-calibre self-propelled gun

Note: Check out the final few minutes of the video, which shows a Caesar team firing 6 rounds in less than 2 minutes and 30 seconds from stopping and then scooting away even before the rounds have hit the ground targets!

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 27 Sep 2011 11:34

vishvak wrote:
sum wrote: More realistic assessment would be such guns being seen with IA before my grandchildren are on their deathbed...have already off seeing them in mine and my children's lifetimes.
If Sukhoi/Brahmos platforms can be designed and multinational system can be incorporated, thereby leveraging adjecencies and also resulting in mutually profitable unlocking of hidden values and synergizing practical efficiencies, perhaps this does look probable.

Hope the bolded was sarcasm

if not then I bow before thee and acknowledge that you truly have the irrefutable upper hand in arty technology strategy

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Sep 2011 12:27

Marut wrote:
vishvak wrote:
quote="sum"
More realistic assessment would be such guns being seen with IA before my grandchildren are on their deathbed...have already off seeing them in mine and my children's lifetimes.
quote

If Sukhoi/Brahmos platforms can be designed and multinational system can be incorporated, thereby leveraging adjecencies and also resulting in mutually profitable unlocking of hidden values and synergizing practical efficiencies, perhaps this does look probable.
Hope the bolded was sarcasm
if not then I bow before thee and acknowledge that you truly have the irrefutable upper hand in arty technology strategy

As the message before it points out, IA is yet to acquire such a tech sufficiently. The ones looking after are yet to say anything out clearly. Rest is, as pointed out, less of sarcasm and more of viewing it in realms of a probability/possibility. I must admit irrefutably that I have no great expertise here. So please take it for its worth. That is about it.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Sep 2011 12:48

I think we should think out of the box, strategize, synergize and rapidly shift paradigms in our Sukhoi/Brahmos platforms.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 27 Sep 2011 13:23

^ I agree 400%. We should strategize and synergize our efforts on a war footing to energize and pulverize the olfactory senses with disproportionate amounts of churning in the depths of gastronomical facilities.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Sep 2011 20:48

^^^While doing that I hope you are leveraging your core competencies across multiple verticals to create a win-win situation and hitting the ground running.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Sep 2011 12:11

With the Mess our artillery acquisition is in. Is there any chance with the advancement in explosive material, that our 105mm ammunition can be modified to become far more potent than it was 10 years ago so that it can take out fortified bunkers, a capability which the 105mm shells lacked in Kargil. Can we manufacture more potent shells for our 105mm and 130mm artillery as a stop gap arrangement till we sort out the induction of fresh artillery?

Any idea if there is any progress in this regard?

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 28 Sep 2011 21:26

^That's an ongoing area of research.

But there are some constraints to be aware of. Increasing explosive power of the shell means heavier substance is used as explosive (generally higher explosive power is obtained only by heavier substances. Now that makes the shell heavier requiring more propellant charge to achieve the same exit velocity from the barrel. More propellant means higher barrel pressures and wear & tear. So the barrel will also needs some refurbishment and retrofit. Alternatively you can use the same propellant charge and fire the shell for the lesser range. Your guns may need to move closer for hitting fortified bunkers in that case, so shoot & scoot will be needed. Pretty sure arty chaps have worked out all these scenarios with various ammo types and ranges for all the pre-identified targets and targets of opportunity that crop up.

saje · Post by **saje** » 28 Sep 2011 21:49

Aditya_V wrote:...Is there any chance with the advancement in explosive material, that our 105mm ammunition can be modified to become far more potent than it was 10 years ago...

Marut wrote:...Increasing explosive power of the shell means heavier substance is used as explosive (generally higher explosive power is obtained only by heavier substances...

I think Aditya was refering to the new explosive mentioned in the news report below which

can substantially reduce the weight and size of the warhead while packing much more punch

http://zeenews.india.com/news/sci-tech/ ... 71532.html

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 28 Sep 2011 23:16

CL20 is 10 times costlier than HMX & 50 times more than RDX currently. It's 20% more potent than HMX and 10% higher density. So do the math! CL20 sensitivity isn't fully understood yet so no warheads till it is completed and costs are brought down. Till then HMX, RDX and their variants will do the job.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 15 Oct 2011 05:23

today's Times of India, 15.10.2011, has the headlines that OFB has the full drawings & details of Bofors guns and these were kept hidden till discovered recently and Army has now asked OFB to produce 6 sample 155mm guns based on these designs.