Telangana Monitor

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 09:44

Btw a simple pointed question to the one's living in Hyderabad ; what difference does it make if Hyderabad falls in AP or Telangana ?

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 24 Sep 2011 09:46

What is the role of "Osmania" University in the movement? Are other univ students in Hyd also willing participators?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 09:50

Negiullah,

Don't you think there should be a reason and standardized process for state creation? Today all political parties are demanding separate T-state for only one reason. They do not want to be called traitors and got destroyed by TRS. Before 12/9 TRS did not have the local support, he got hardly 20% of seats in Telangana. PCs Dec 9th statement gave a new life to T-demand. Now KCR and TJAC are able to blackmail rest of t-politicians saying that these guys are backstabbing the agitation even when SG/PC are willing to do so.

We all know that the 12/9 statement was not done in consultation with the then INC CM of AP or GoM at center. More over it was done in the name of SG as her birthday gift to Telangana. We are yet to see SG's statement on this.

If we start creating a separate state just because people ask for it, then the costa "settlers" in Hyderabad want a separate Hyderabad state. Isn't it a legitimate demand?

To your new question: what difference does it make to Telangana people if they are part of united AP or a separate T-state?

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 24 Sep 2011 10:48

When Telugu people are exploited by their own leaders and egoistic pseudo intellectuals, taking advantage of some silly cultural differences imposed by two foreign rulers, why blame EJ or TN. This whole discussion about the grand conspiracy, although entertaining with fake eruditely abstraction, at times it is very nauseating. Both Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha categorically denounced the actions of PC who behaved worst than Rajaji ( While Rajaji urged Nehru to ignore Potti Sriramulu's Fast, PC made a hero out of KCR and his fake fast) and that should put an end to this silly Chola conspiracy.

As a whole, the Nation is very sympathetic to united AP stance as they are fully aware of the dynamics of the filthy political forces brewing this separatist movement for a long time. At the same time we come across some people who take pleasure out of the plight of the people of AP, but it is not their fault. I've seen few non Telugu people in Hyderabad getting some some cynical joy when Telanganites threaten to kick Andhrites out, as if that leaves them with less competition. But these are exceptions.

Let us not despair and accuse others for our problems. It is a problem that we created and it will end soon. Whether united or separated, eventually when all the false promises are evaporated, people of AP will know the truth and come together (even if they are in two states). I believe that Language is much stronger thread in the fabric of a community and the foundation of this great multi linguistic country. Hopefully other states will learn from the AP fiasco and set their houses right before other copycat KCRs exploit the regional differences and replicate many telanganas across the country.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Sep 2011 12:55

ShyamSP wrote: Madras was not given to part of the state (Andhra) that was separating from big state (Madras).

This had nothing to do with big state-small state rubbish you are throwing randomly. Another common myth peddled by Telugu speakers is

Although historically and geographically, Madras is a part of the Andhra region [citation needed ], the greater political dominance of the Tamils in 1953 at both Central and State level politics caused Madras to remain in the Tamil region.

Fact remains that in 1952-53, the % of Tamils to the entire population of the City of Madras was 49%. That for Telugus was 38%. Rest 13%. [Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html]. The above source is based on the 1951 census. That is a ratio of ~1.28 to 1. In the 1891-92 census, the same ratio was 2.7 to 1. [Source: Government of India, Census of India 1891-92 (Madras 1893), vol. 14, p. 137, p. 139.] So if a case has to be made, it can be said that the Telugu speakers migrated more to Madras City than Tamil speakers over the 60 year period from 1890 to 1950 to cause the skewing of the ratio. The bottomline remains that, despite this internal migration, the ratio remained skewed in favor of Tamil speakers. I dont believe that Telugu politicians are idiotic enough to generally accede to pointless demands esp if satya vachan of the brf kind is on their side.

Hyderabad need not be given to Telangana if they want to separate. This has nothing to do with Tamils as such.

I am pretty sure I can fish statements from Telugu stalwarts on how Madras City should go to them based on the preponderance of Telugu speakers, however not reconciled with facts such claims were. In the same vain, Hyderabad can go to whoever is numerically preponderant in Hyderabad: telengana-vaadis vs. Costa-Seema folks.

Rest assured, Telugu speakers were not the only claimants to what is now TN. Malayalam speakers wanted the Kanniyakumari district bordering the “new” Kerala; Telugu speakers wanted Madras city and the Thiruthani area. Kannada speakers wanted Hosur in the Dharmapuri district of Tamil Nadu. The counterclaims by what is now TN included: The Tirupati area in Andhra Pradesh, The Kolar area of Karnataka and Devikulam-Peermedhu areas of Kerala. Status quo was maintained not cos of brf type satya vachan, but cos people were smart enough to figure which claims were legally tenable and which aint. In Tirupati, Telugu speakers were a clear majority whereas the demand for Madras by Telugu speakers was written on water from the start.

There are parallels with today: many Telugu speakers had parked their cash in Madras City and hence assumed that that alone was sufficient reason to demand a City where they were in a minority. Wonderful logic that even Nannaya cant compose even if you gave him a million years. Btw, what became AP had chosen to side with the Communist Party [Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madras_Sta ... tion,_1952] and it was the CPI which walked out of the Parliament when Potti Sriramulu's death was not honored due to fear of precedents of stalling a nascent state with dharna of a new kind. The much-hated commies were in the forefront in having AP recognized. They were also in the forefront in Op. Polo and the drive against the Razakars. That was a quick change from their language based nationality policy of the early to mid 40s to becoming parochial for the sake of political consolidation in a nascent state which they believed will drop in their laps.

So, instead of dissing at the Commies at the drop of a hat, as is the fashion of brf, you guys should learn your own history. At least we Tams love our godless hypocrites who have served us so-so. You guys diss at all the godless idiots who have helped you in the past. Some of you with deep historical insights stretching to the Kakatiyas, Chalukyas (was it the eastern or the western cousins), Chozhas, Satavahanas, etc. just forgot only the post-47 history. Wonderful rendition of dharm-rakshaking by those who are sugar-coated in agmark-brand dharma. What to do, we are in dharm-yug where satya vachan is spoken in so many forms.

Now, back to scheduled programming

. Can I have an encore on the chest-beating cries please?

PS: In my super-excitement, forgot this: Jai Telengana

.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Sep 2011 18:46

RamaY:
I sometimes wonder why I even continue to have discussions on such subjects with you, or even I read this dhaaga.

We two "seem"? I have never claimed so, nor ever have I implied anywhere. So if you are going to attribute something to me it is your faulty conclusions based on your biased observations. I am not going to talk for Stan. Let him handle your accusations. Trying to club voices that express different opinions is one way to ignore the nuances & differences in the respective opinions; it is easy to now attach the "two" (or a group). It helps you to project my opinion as his, and his opinions as mine. Now that Stan has been doning the soosai vest for sometime, god knows for what, it is all the more easy for you to club me with him for your benefit. It is not that I do not mind being associated with Stan, in fact I write at his blog. It is just that such clubbing is used as tactics while arguing. You have demonstrated nothing, but base your conclusions on "possibilities". It is quite possible, that Telugu people want to reunite the entire south under their "rule", no

? How nutty would I be if I was making such statements? You sound as nutty with your "possibility theory".

How am I prejudiced, when I point out you are imposing past incidents and strategy based on a different political setup, on to the present people and polity of the country? Teach me, Please. If I was prejudiced, I would be going screaming that non-tamilians are out to get me, they want to re-establish Vijayanagar Empire back, they want to impose their brand of Hinduism, ityadi itaydi.

I am not clubbing Devesh or you. Mind it, you are doing it yourself. If you want to introduce into the discussion, be my guest. I am not going to accuse you of seeming to protect the interests of ALL telugu people in the World.

I don't have one iota of a problem, if you blame specific individuals like Rajaji, PC, Jayalalitha, or even me as SwamyG. Where I take issue is applying past framework to the present and saying "TN People" are out to create a split.

I am not going to be childish in asking your or anyone else to apologize for generalizing, but I have the right to express my views.

Heartburn? Seriously, I expected a lot from you. Dude, I have reminded you of that discussion several times. Now, I have given up. Don't expect me to wait for a year. You simply did not have the data points nor the courtesy to attempt. No it is not the Christian FOundations of USA Nation state. But it is definitely related to USA-India-Religion. No more on that topic from me.

As I say, if tamilians do it is chauvinism, if others do the same thing it is revivalism or nationalism.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Sep 2011 18:50

negi wrote:Btw a simple pointed question to the one's living in Hyderabad ; what difference does it make if Hyderabad falls in AP or Telangana ?

All the investments in Hyderabad come from either Andhra folks or NRIs. With the fear of removing settlers from Hyderabad, we fear that Hyderabad will turn into another Karachi with Telangana bigots ruling over it.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Sep 2011 18:52

Dasari wrote:When Telugu people are exploited by their own leaders and egoistic pseudo intellectuals, taking advantage of some silly cultural differences imposed by two foreign rulers, why blame EJ or TN. This whole discussion about the grand conspiracy, although entertaining with fake eruditely abstraction, at times it is very nauseating. Both Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha categorically denounced the actions of PC who behaved worst than Rajaji ( While Rajaji urged Nehru to ignore Potti Sriramulu's Fast, PC made a hero out of KCR and his fake fast) and that should put an end to this silly Chola conspiracy.

I lost respect for PC when he ditched Moopanar. He proved how opportunistic he could be. MMS and PC, ruined their credibility that they manage to eke out during PVNR's tenure. As they would say in Madras "PC-kku aappu dhaen". DMK was a smaller fish in the 2G scam. INC and Indian businesses profited the most. It is not to say DMK is dynasty party or corrupt. They are goondas to the core. In politics it does not matter. MuKa, in order revive DMK, rescue his daughter (and possibly Raja) will target PC and MMS. If Muka fails, JJ will shoot the next set of arrows. If Muka succeeds, and PC returns to TN - JJ will ensure his life is miserable. MuKa and JJ will get their enemies or they will die attempting to get their enemies. They are not business men. They are politicians and ideologues drunk in power and ideology. PC is toast.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 24 Sep 2011 19:54

milindc wrote:
negi wrote:Btw a simple pointed question to the one's living in Hyderabad ; what difference does it make if Hyderabad falls in AP or Telangana ?
All the investments in Hyderabad come from either Andhra folks or NRIs. With the fear of removing settlers from Hyderabad, we fear that Hyderabad will turn into another Karachi with Telangana bigots ruling over it.

negiji, the menace is there. It is not being alarmist (or 'kiddish', as you put it). Please follow the nuance. The only question is whether the pressure will be immediate, or more gradual over a long period of time. 'Pressure' means anyone can try anything, but the police will be able to control only some events at some places for some of the time (one can not expect anything more from them anyway- political problems need political solutions.). Many people will not wait till the end, they will leave 'voluntarily'.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:11

What kind of reasoning is this ? When was it last that people were displaced after creation of a new state ? These are strawman arguments. Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ? MNS has been asking for similar stuff in Mumbai and Maha, how many people take such stuff seriously ?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Sep 2011 20:22

negi wrote:What kind of reasoning is this ? When was it last that people were displaced after creation of a new state ? These are strawman arguments. Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ? MNS has been asking for similar stuff in Mumbai and Maha, how many people take such stuff seriously ?

Even Amitabh and Sharukh/Karan Johar takes is seriously. They pay hafta to MNS and does a lot of pranams in Marathi to Raj Thakrey. So these kind of Takleef based localized goondagardhi majority in India is not a joke and it is serious.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:28

RamaY wrote:Negiullah,

Don't you think there should be a reason and standardized process for state creation? Today all political parties are demanding separate T-state for only one reason. They do not want to be called traitors and got destroyed by TRS. Before 12/9 TRS did not have the local support, he got hardly 20% of seats in Telangana. PCs Dec 9th statement gave a new life to T-demand. Now KCR and TJAC are able to blackmail rest of t-politicians saying that these guys are backstabbing the agitation even when SG/PC are willing to do so.

Boss what standardised process ? For god's sake we already have it, how do you think other new states were formed ? The politicians obviously are milking the issue however what is important is as far as demand for a new state is concerned there is enough traction on ground and to me that is the key factor which decides if the new state be created or not. The very fact that all the political parties are milking the issue is an indicator of the sentiments of the people in that region.

To your new question: what difference does it make to Telangana people if they are part of united AP or a separate T-state?

You cannot dodge a question by asking another one; btw I find the word 'united' pretty amusing.

The demand for creation of a new state is not mine it is there for everyone to see as to how much traction the issue has on ground iow your question is moot.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:29

Muppalla saar nice try . You are digressing from the issue. Come on are you guys serious ? Do you think taxi wallahs and labourers pay hafta to Thackerays to live in Mumbai ? What nonsense.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2011 20:29

SwamyG,

I never said that "TN people are sitting in their drawing rooms planning for division of AP". I request you to stop being defensive and think about what I'm saying. I am saying it for the last time and if you still insist on blaming me for "accusing TN people", then continue to believe what you want. This is my last post trying to explain my position against your efforts to censor debate.

my position is that Kerala+TN+Coastal-AP is being infiltrated so as to put a stop to any possible resurgence of Bharat that can start from here. it is also an excellent launch pad to control SE Asia. it was done before, and it can be done again. IMO, this is what the foreign elements are trying to do.

-shanti-shanti-shanti-

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Sep 2011 20:32

negi wrote:Muppalla saar nice try . You are digressing from the issue. Come on are you guys serious ? Do you think taxi wallahs and labourers pay hafta to Thackerays to live in Mumbai ? What nonsense.

But businesses pay. Multiplexes paid hafta to release My Name is Khan. Well in case of T it is exaggaration. Nothing of that sort will happen as it is all rhetoric at this time. TRS collecting hafta at this time is a fact.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:33

devesh wrote:my position is that Kerala+TN+Coastal-AP is being infiltrated so as to put a stop to any possible resurgence of Bharat that can start from here. it is also an excellent launch pad to control SE Asia. it was done before, and it can be done again. IMO, this is what the foreign elements are trying to do.

Infilterated ? By whom ?

What Bharat-sharat do you guys talk about here , huh ? Is concept of bharat so weak that it get's shaken if a section of population demand for a new state within India ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:34

Mupalla the hafta you talk about is paid by everyone regardless of whether he is a Marathi manoos or not; you are just imagining things and bringing it up here.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Sep 2011 20:37

negi wrote:
To your new question: what difference does it make to Telangana people if they are part of united AP or a separate T-state?
You cannot dodge a question by asking another one; btw I find the word 'united' pretty amusing. The demand for creation of a new state is not mine it is there for everyone to see as to how much traction the issue has on ground iow your question is moot.

Absolutely true. Whether a Muppalla ror RamaY likes or dislikes, the government has declared that they want to split the ste on December 9th. Most of the agitation is for creation of state and it is in Telangana region. What is the problem for the goverment and they should have started the process. Why should they wait until this thread reach 108 pages. I reitereate and wish best of luck to both GoAP and GOI to create Telangana. Please please create it na

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 20:38

It is idiotic indeed. However t-leadership (especially TRS and Kodandaram) is using this to rally the students/youth in support if this agitation.

Deveshji, don't get disheartened by all the discussions about tamilians Vs telugus. It is natural when an issue is very close to people's identity and emotions. Please continue your thoughts.

If we see contemporary politics, we can see the so-called Dravidian (who are against fellow so-called Aryan Indians) leadership and movement are somehow comfortable with foreign colonization and religious identity. It doesn't seem logical but it has happened. We also see today's DMK and PMK etc support an Aryan INC but cannot co-exist with fellow Tamilian AIDMK. So everything is possible in politics.

Similarly the fissures between so called EC and WC did not go away even after 60 years of living and prospering together in AP. These fissures came out (or being exploited by KCR types for their interests) even in the modern 21st century. Then it is very much possible for the EJs to exploit the fissures to recreate a EJ sympathetic chola region. Old Madras presidency was just that. There was no Madras kingdom in Indian history, but Madras presidency was carved out by British using sama, Dana, bheda and danda.

When we say Telangana people want separate state, it doesn't mean each and every talanganite wants a separate state. We take their politician's claims as the general mood. Similarly when t-Vadis say 'andhra' people exploited Telangana, they don't mean a certain RamaY too exploited Telangana. Same goes with when one says Tamilian people want to create fissures in telugu people. Even Cholas and chalukyas doesn't mean each and every Telugu/Tamil person. The commons co-existed peacefully for millennia as they are same people.

When "spartha=jealousy?" happens in education/knowledge it is productive. The Telugu language was born from such a situation. "spartha" is also good in industry/business. But not in other areas.

SwamyG garu: there is little I can do to make you happy other than apologizing. If you think a year is too long to respond to your question, I am sorry but I cannot do everything I want to do with the time I have. If you think it is waste of your time to debate with ignorant like me, who will I learn?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 20:40

negi wrote:Muppalla saar nice try . You are digressing from the issue. Come on are you guys serious ? Do you think taxi wallahs and labourers pay hafta to Thackerays to live in Mumbai ? What nonsense.

But what see in media is genuine, right? If Telangana demand is so strong why did KCR lose more than 50% of seats contested? If you say people voted for other Telangana politicians, then why is TRS trying to intimidate TDP and INC?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Sep 2011 20:40

negi wrote:Mupalla the hafta you talk about is paid by everyone regardless of whether he is a Marathi manoos or not; you are just imagining things and bringing it up here.

What is that I am imagining here? The T-agitation is primarily to create a state of T because they are suffocated by the might of Andhras. Every T-agitationist asks the Andhras to be thrown out. To run the movies, the movie barrons paid hafta to TRS. I never claimed it is exactly like Raj Thakrey but I do say again it is similar.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2011 20:40

negi wrote:
devesh wrote:my position is that Kerala+TN+Coastal-AP is being infiltrated so as to put a stop to any possible resurgence of Bharat that can start from here. it is also an excellent launch pad to control SE Asia. it was done before, and it can be done again. IMO, this is what the foreign elements are trying to do.
Infilterated ? By whom ?

What Bharat-sharat do you guys talk about here , huh ? Is concept of bharat so weak that it get's shaken if a section of population demand for a new state within India ?

yes, in the present framework of Indian Rashtra, Bharat is weak.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 20:41

negi wrote:
devesh wrote:my position is that Kerala+TN+Coastal-AP is being infiltrated so as to put a stop to any possible resurgence of Bharat that can start from here. it is also an excellent launch pad to control SE Asia. it was done before, and it can be done again. IMO, this is what the foreign elements are trying to do.
Infilterated ? By whom ?

What Bharat-sharat do you guys talk about here , huh ? Is concept of bharat so weak that it get's shaken if a section of population demand for a new state within India ?

That is exactly what people thought at the beginning of Islamic invasions and western colonization.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2011 20:43

RamaY ji,

the blunder was to bring in Madras issue. Whoever did it deserves......
once people started talking about "Telugus loosing Madras" and "Tamils loosing South Andhra" the sh8t storm began.

I had kept my language deliberate to indicate that having a strong and growing presence in the already mentioned parts of India is a very good launch pad to control Dakshinapath and SE Asia.

but the issue got out of hand once the Tamil vs Telugu came out...

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:44

SriKumar wrote: the menace is there. It is not being alarmist (or 'kiddish', as you put it). Please follow the nuance. The only question is whether the pressure will be immediate, or more gradual over a long period of time. 'Pressure' means anyone can try anything, but the police will be able to control only some events at some places for some of the time (one can not expect anything more from them anyway- political problems need political solutions.). Many people will not wait till the end, they will leave 'voluntarily'.

Boss I simply don't get this; these very people whom you distrust and claim will try to drive away the so called settlers from Hyderabad why/whom are they waiting for ? Also since I do not know about the demographics of Hyderabad , can you tell me how does one identify whether a house is occupied by a settler or Telanganawadi ? I am pretty sure Hyderabad has sizeable number of people who are not even originally from AP, are you saying even they will be driven away ? You guys are making it look like someone is asking for creation of Pakistan in India.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:46

Devesh thank you for clarifying your stand in open; I have nothing to add.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 20:47

^ thank you. That is exactly what I said 100 pages ago.

The t-Vadis do not think other Indians are a threat to t-interests. Only people from AP are threat to their culture, economic prosperity etc.,

Now you called them Paki-likes. Await Stanji's soosai-parishwanga

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Sep 2011 20:49

^ You need to re-read my post.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 24 Sep 2011 20:56

negi wrote:Boss I simply don't get this; these very people whom you distrust and claim will try to drive away the so called settlers from Hyderabad why/whom are they waiting for ? Also since I do not know about the demographics of Hyderabad , can you tell me how does one identify whether a house is occupied by a settler or Telanganawadi ? I am pretty sure Hyderabad has sizeable number of people who are not even originally from AP, are you saying even they will be driven away ? You guys are making it look like someone is asking for creation of Pakistan in India.

It is very complex man. To get it takes a while

. Read all the stuff including rhetoric of the 108 pages

. Simply put, the T-vadis have no problem with any Indians except non-Telangana Telugu speaking population. Hyderabad is very diverse and hence the proposal to create it as a seperate entity and give the rest of the T-districts as Telangana. The state formation is stuck on Hyd issue only. T without Hyd will be a very poor state. The businesses have expressed reservations to be part of Telangana. Sri Krishna committe that was formed exclusive to resolve T state formation also gave discouraging report. This T-state has a lot of discouragement from investors and also several other vested interests.

You are always bringing other state formations and comparing to T state. There is no state movement asking (may be rhetoric) to throw out certain sections. This movement whether in 1969 or now has such concepts. It may be just rhetoric but commoners will not like such rhetoric and hence will be opposed equally. As you said some one has right to fight for a state and yes you are right but there is also equal right for others to fight against it. So the government has to take both sides in resolution.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 24 Sep 2011 21:18

negi wrote:What kind of reasoning is this ? When was it last that people were displaced after creation of a new state ? These are strawman arguments. Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ? MNS has been asking for similar stuff in Mumbai and Maha, how many people take such stuff seriously ?

What you are posting is utter nonsense. No state was created where the most prosperous region having the capital breaking away against the will of the rest of the state. As for the constitutionality that no one displace another one, thanks for your trust. Tell this to Kashmiri pundits. It is easy to talk sitting in front of computer, but if you are in Hyderabad with even small probability of violence because you are an andhrite, you will be fearful. Can't you apply the same constitutionality and see the truth when some people claim that they are discriminated and cheated by people from another region? What do you call such movement?.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 24 Sep 2011 21:54

negi wrote:
SriKumar wrote: the menace is there. It is not being alarmist (or 'kiddish', as you put it). Please follow the nuance. The only question is whether the pressure will be immediate, or more gradual over a long period of time. 'Pressure' means anyone can try anything, but the police will be able to control only some events at some places for some of the time (one can not expect anything more from them anyway- political problems need political solutions.). Many people will not wait till the end, they will leave 'voluntarily'.
Boss I simply don't get this; these very people whom you distrust and claim will try to drive away the so called settlers from Hyderabad why/whom are they waiting for ? Also since I do not know about the demographics of Hyderabad , can you tell me how does one identify whether a house is occupied by a settler or Telanganawadi ? I am pretty sure Hyderabad has sizeable number of people who are not even originally from AP, are you saying even they will be driven away ? :

negi bhai sahab. Please do not use the ROTL icon in this context. FYI, this is the 2nd time the T-movement started. There was a first time in the early 70's when the same thing happened, but with lesser intensity. People (specific to one region) were asked to leave. People were publicly harassed. I am not as knowledgeable of that phase of time but this is a repeat of that, but in more depth. As to how one can tell them apart, the localites (from both sides) can tell, easily. I know it sounds unreal to you. I have tried. Let's leave it.

Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ?

Just check how many BRF threads are there to demonstrate the rigor with which constitutionality is being followed in desh. Constitutionality matters only to the extent that police can enforce it. And as I said in my previous post, police can only do so much. This is a political issue and the solution has to be political.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 24 Sep 2011 21:57

devesh wrote:RamaY ji,

the blunder was to bring in Madras issue. Whoever did it deserves......
once people started talking about "Telugus loosing Madras" and "Tamils loosing South Andhra" the sh8t storm began.

I had kept my language deliberate to indicate that having a strong and growing presence in the already mentioned parts of India is a very good launch pad to control Dakshinapath and SE Asia.

but the issue got out of hand once the Tamil vs Telugu came out...

The original arguement was that when somebody wants separate state against the will of rest of the state, there is some price to pay. For example, when telugu speaking people wanted separate state, they had to forfeit their claim on Madras and move on. That is the norm of separation.

The actual blunder started when one side argued that telugites had no claim on Madras in the first place and and on other side responded that this was all some TN conspiracy. As far as I know ( I can say this as majority of my family friends are Tamil speaking Indians), outside AP, strong support for united AP comes from Tamilnadu.

BTW, for T-vadis on this forum, I'm not suggesting that Telangana should be formed without Hyderabad and I know very well that it is geographically impossible.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Sep 2011 21:58

devesh wrote: my position is that Kerala+TN+Coastal-AP is being infiltrated so as to put a stop to any possible resurgence of Bharat that can start from here. it is also an excellent launch pad to control SE Asia. it was done before, and it can be done again. IMO, this is what the foreign elements are trying to do.

Ideally, I stay away from this dhaaga because this dhaaga reflects what BRF has become today: parochial, ignorant, divisive in its own infinite wisdom, lacking common-sense, lacking a sense of holding back to understand the issue when the mind has already been made up, and worst of all, ignorance of ignorance. But dude, you are mixing so many different things that I feel like going out of my way to point out some things.

In terms of FCRA funneling into India, the top 5 targets in terms of districts are Madras*, Bangalore, Bombay, Pathanamthitta (Quillon) and Calcutta. In AP, the biggest target district is not the twin cities, but Ananthapur. The second is the twin cities, very close. That is Seema and Telengana, not Costa. Far south from these two comes the Krishna district in Costa. In terms of recipient agencies, the biggest EJ funneler in AP is Rural Development Trust of Ananthapur and Women's Development Trust also of Ananthapur, both of which are funded by Fundacion Vicente Ferrer of Spain and made prosperous by people like Narendra Luther who people even here (iirc, it was ramana) on this forum were celebrating because of his book on Hyd. You guys dont know the enemies amongst yourselves, and embrace people who are scheming to hurt you guys. Any sensible guy who can get hold of MHA's FCRA charts of the last six years which are all open to public view (and which I myself have posted N times in different threads) can glean this much. In all that melee, you throw tantrums at everything you come across including Tamil speakers, 99.9% of em could nt care either way as to what happens in AP. I watch Sun News, Jaya News often and read Tharasu to Nakkeeran, there is hardly a mention of Telengana except when something completely bizarre happens. Most of the attention is on the DMK-ADMK family feud and what this will mean for the next five years, esp when our beloved father figure kicks the bucket for which I have been waiting for god knows how long.

Then there is the issue of Telengana. For all it appears, it looks like having little to no correlation with the big problem called EJ funding. There may be and most likely there exists some ganging up of maoist clientele and maoist supporters on to the Telengana bandwagon, but that is just a consequence of different people trying to ride the tiger for their own benefit. You know what, communists of different ilk try to take advantage over some politically divisive issue in AP very often, but they often end up getting hurt in the melee. This is how I read post-47 history of AP. The basic problem in AP is the inequitable land distribution. India in general is known for the huge divide between the rich and the poor, in AP its far far worse than average, which is what makes it such an easy target for either maoists or EJs.

Another place which had such inequitable-ness was Bengal with the East side going the Islamist socialist way and the West leaning the Marxist to Marxist-Leninist to Maoist way. The religious undercurrent was why we dont have a grander Bonga-desh today. When you guys cuss at the Dravidian movement without knowing an iota of what the main issue was, nor with an interest on educating yourselves, I feel pity. Dravidian movement was not only a language based pride issue (which you guys must be able to understand well), but also one of social mobility between the varied-ly employed (in the government and govt. affiliated institutions of pre-47 India) Brahmin community and the other castes. Once the Brahmins got displaced from the top jobs, migrated outwards, or got displaced via the reservation system, the different castes started getting complacent and fighting with each other, which is exactly why the splinterist Dravidian movement could be forged to become a casteist and parochial, but tolerate-able nightmare. Get the basic problems right, solutions will appear later. If Telengana is such a non-frothy issue and everyone could care less, why is there cutting across partyline support for this issue in the Telengana region? Did Tamil speakers come and induce your fellow state mates to demand a new state??! Did we create the massive differential between the land-owning and the landless? Where did the neo-zamindari mindset in today's AP come from? I know of a massive casteist mindset in TN in general, but the more I dig up on AP, AP seems not far away from TN on this matter, just with different jargons, divisions and tabulations. Did we Tamil speakers come and induce all this nonsense aka social divide?

If Telengana was/is not such an emotional issue, why do people not forget the issue once short term memoristan subsides? After all, you Telugu speakers should know the answer. You guys rode the emotional wave in 1953 when the state formation was delayed. Not like I bear a grudge on this, could nt care less either way, but one needs to point out that these are facts. For all that I could care, Tamil speakers did nt indulge in such massive chest-beating as witnessed in this thread when the Telugu speakers declared that they want a new state to protect their language, identity, etc. It was more or less an amicable division of resources, with Madras serving as the film center for South Indian cinema long into the 70s till NTR came up with his idea. The only divisive issue was Madras city with some version of the Cooum formula floated by Seema folks, because the new state did nt have a city worth talking about. Nor did TN, if you took away Madras City. Madurai, Trichy, Kovai, etc. were all a pittance when compared with Madras and the reality is true even today. But that is a different matter.

In fact, if people like RamaY accuse your fellow state mates of being pakis, I will accuse you Costa-Seema folks of being pakis too with the parallel being the formation of Bangladesh. 1920-1953 was the gestation of an idea that language and culture matters over everything else, 1970-2009 was the gestation of the alternate idea that while language, culture, identity etc., matters, they dont take preponderance over sub-identities and sub-cultures. Since you guys set the trend for these matters, we will see another reorganization of states in India following the Telengana model. Now these sub-identities and sub-cultures are not induced by third party Chozhas and Pallavas, they are already there. We wont have a need to manufacture divides in a place that is already divided. It is there cos that is what people are, they flock and divide themselves, it is but human. I can also hypothesize that 20XX will see the gestation of a new idea that while culture and sub-culture matter, basic economics and fundamentals of day2day life matter more. Till then, take a chill pill.

*I should know the difference in terms of being the biggest recipient district of EJ funding and the consequent church planting in Madras city, I can see Kailaiye Mailai become Karthhare Mailai right in front of my eye. The road from the Airport to the city centre is littered with 100s of churches, small and large. I can see new fancy churches all the way from Padi and Kanchipuram as one enters the city depending on which route/mode.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Sep 2011 22:18

Good post Stanji.

I labeled the t-Vadis who call for expulsion of andhra people and occupation of their homes and properties as pakis and stand by that. We saw such a paki-post just a couple of pages ago. If you have any better word for such low-lives please suggest.

Every other argument in support of t-state is acceptable. I presented the data/reasoning whenever I found a given understanding to be incorrect and agreed with t-sentiments whenever I found them to be genuine.

The t-movement is not like other state demands. The more developed (at least in past 60 years) region is wanting to separate after getting benefited from combined investments and hard-work. The details can be seen in past 100 pages.

vnadendla · Post by **vnadendla** » 24 Sep 2011 22:33

negi wrote:What kind of reasoning is this ? When was it last that people were displaced after creation of a new state ? These are strawman arguments. Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ? MNS has been asking for similar stuff in Mumbai and Maha, how many people take such stuff seriously ?

I started it. So let me answer. I have told it before. so I'll be precise.
1947 India independence
1948 My Mom is born. Her middle name is Andhra. So you can guess the feelings at that time.
1953 Andhra Formed. my Grand pa is left in TN. He stays put
1956 AP formed
1948 - 1960. My grandpa has 5 more children
196X I was born in AP. My Brother in TN next year.
1965 - 1985. 5 of the 6 children had to leave TN for andhra because there are no opportunies for them. I am frequent visitor to Madras. Had a nice time. People are great. I speak broken tamil. They reply in broken Telugu. But when it comes to important things in life (job etc) networking is important. While a person may not be discriminating the system may be.
One of my uncles is Gold Medalist. Don't tell me he is not qualified for a simple job in TN.

To cut story short we moved to AP and via lot of towns to Hyd. My dad is from Andhra. I am born and boughtup in Rayalaseema. Married a telangana girl. Now this!

You have a right to live any where. But 50 lakh people obviously don't. you have a right to as long as you are a tiny minority and no threat to any one.

Asking 50 lakh people to uproot families, leave jobs and businesses and move somewhere else is crazy. The governance in India is still not stong enough to ensure the safety and complete rights to ALL those 50 lakh people if hyd is part of Telangana. Of course without Hyd Telangana will be very poor. If someone knows the solution 2G will make you CM.

Someone told me once. Don't think us politicians are all stupid, idiotic, criminal types. We are smart people trying to solve very intractable problems.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2011 23:04

Stan,

you quoted my post. so I'm assuming your rants about "parochial" and "ignorant" were addressed to me. it is amazing how SwamyG and you start off your posts by name calling and yet end moralizing and grand standing about how somebody else is calling you names or accusing you of something.

if you look at a map of EJ population in AP, the highest % districts in AP are all on Coast. Medak (in Telangana) is the one exception to this rule.

and I would like you to point out to me where I accused Tamil people of "scheming" to divide AP? if you can find one post like that, I will apologize.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 24 Sep 2011 23:07

Stan_Savljevic wrote: If Telengana was/is not such an emotional issue, why do people not forget the issue once short term memoristan subsides? After all, you Telugu speakers should know the answer. You guys rode the emotional wave in 1953 when the state formation was delayed. Not like I bear a grudge on this, could nt care less either way, but one needs to point out that these are facts. For all that I could care, Tamil speakers did nt indulge in such massive chest-beating as witnessed in this thread when the Telugu speakers declared that they want a new state to protect their language, identity, etc. It was more or less an amicable division of resources, with Madras serving as the film center for South Indian cinema long into the 70s till NTR came up with his idea. The only divisive issue was Madras city with some version of the Cooum formula floated by Seema folks, because the new state did nt have a city worth talking about. Nor did TN, if you took away Madras City. Madurai, Trichy, Kovai, etc. were all a pittance when compared with Madras and the reality is true even today. But that is a different matter.

Before his martyrdom fast, Potti Sriramulu was also involved in a mass movement with slogan 'Madras manadi' (Madras is ours). The only reason I bring this up is that the division was far from amicable.

Asking for carving a separate state from Madras Presidency with Madras as their capital is not like asking for separate state, it is more like asking that rest of the state be expelled from Madras Presidency. So it was non starter. That was the kind of foregone conclusion that rest of the state had as far as Madras is concerned. Also don't forget how strong Nehru was against linguistic state formation.

Same is not the case now. Forming Telangana with Hyderabad as state capital is not same as creation of Telangana state, it is more like expelling rest of non-Telagnana people from Andhra pradesh state. That is the difference.

So don't compare the reaction of non telugites then with that of non telanganites now. In fact the chest beating and scare tactics are more defensive now, trying to placate Telanagites, while the chest beating and taunting was more offensive then leading to the 1953 events. If the mega bustling capital city of Andhra Prdaesh is some where south of Krishna river, like Kurnool, the reaction of andhrtes to telangana movement would have been exactly same as that of Tamil speaking people of Madras Presidency. I can bet the non telangana people would have dared them to separate.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Sep 2011 23:39

devesh wrote:Stan, you quoted my post. so I'm assuming your rants about "parochial" and "ignorant" were addressed to me.

Parochial and ignorant were aimed at this dhaaga and much of BRF, cos thats what BRF has become. Nothing specific, a very general statement. I can blame the admins and I do blame the admins cos they set the examples or in this case, a lack thereof by not reacting to rubbish posts. As a poster, you can post away. When some admin takes a responsibility and he foregoes that by sitting silently in his infinite wisdom of "no action is also action," people up the ante and what you end up with is a divisive forum. I dont know if you can see the difference of this forum from 2005 to now, but I can see fights all over the place. Argumentative Indian they may be, but ideological masquerading they are too.

and I would like you to point out to me where I accused Tamil people of "scheming" to divide AP? if you can find one post like that, I will apologize.

What exactly was the reference to Cholas playing Eastern and Western Chalukyas all about? What am I supposed to read into that? Do you know what you talk or you fit nails to your hammer?

In any case, calumny and vituperations on Rajaji on this dhaaga is also unnecessary. Rajaji was on the right of the divide, Nehru on the left. Both saw linguistic reorganization as a threat to a nascent state just coming out of slavery for years on end. The flavor of the season was Bandung 1955, Panch-sheel etc. In the Madras Presidency, the fights were intra-party, inter-party, inter-language and often inter-caste. Tanguturi Prakasam was no saint, nor was Rajaji. At the end of the day, everyone was a flawed politician who in his or her wisdom and ideological predilections was focussing on what he/she saw as moral certitude. In 1953, most people were burning their midnight oil on the Kula Kalvi thittam of Rajaji, 1960 deadline for national language, and how to get the criminal caste label on Maravars (Thevars) lifted. Up north, the post-Op Polo aftermath left enough problems in its wake. While the Nizam was Rajpramukh, he started showing his opposition to many new policies including anti-zamindari moves and nationalizing Salar Jung. Qasim Rizwi was in jail, but the MIM was reorganizing and by 1957 had come completely overground. Its easy to throw stones with hindsight as a crutch, but life is more complicated living forward. Or so said, Kierkegaard.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Sep 2011 23:43

negi wrote:What kind of reasoning is this ? When was it last that people were displaced after creation of a new state ? These are strawman arguments. Constitutionally no one can displace anyone from his legal residence in India, how hard is that to understand ? MNS has been asking for similar stuff in Mumbai and Maha, how many people take such stuff seriously ?

Just one image is enough give you the reasoning

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 24 Sep 2011 23:51

Stan,

Ok, my language of "Cholas exploiting EC/WC divide" might have seemed like I was dissing Tamils. so, let me clarify. what I am saying is that EJ takeover of these areas (a committed minority is enough) can be used as a launchpad into SE Asia and also to weaken Dakshinpath. If I gave the impression that Tamils were "scheming" and so on, I am sorry. that wasn't my intention.