Telangana Monitor

[Stan_Savljevic]

Muppalla and Shyam SP, what makes you think that either Madras or the regions north of Madras, but within what is now TN, were Telugu-speaker dominated and somehow magically by clout or happenstance or randomness, they came to be a part of TN? Any census statistics?

You guys have been talking big hot air on clout of TN politicians and "the boundary could have been anywhere," etc. with no data to support your wild hunches. The boundary could only have been approx where one language starts dominating the other, thats how the Radcliffe award was made (except for small minor aberrations like Ferozepur). Thats how different awards have been made even within the post47 course of India. Thats how Shenkottai and Kanni came to TN, Hosur came to TN, etc. Now if you guys say something contrary happened in AP-TN, the onus is on you to prove that a wild injustice was made to you Telugu speakers. So far, we have seen no data at all. OTOH, I posted census data for Madras city in 1951 and earlier. Please back up your wild statements with data, not hot air. Why should the boundary of Madras state have been at the Cooum river and not where it is now? Were the Telugu speakers > Tamil speakers? If so, prove it or fish for data from the Census which I am sure you can do if you really wanted to. I am sick of arguments just for the heck of it.

[Stan_Savljevic]

And Muppalla, for your kind information, DK's claims to secessions were not Constitutionally banned till ~1960-62 iirc. Till then, whether you like it or not, seceding or claims to seceding were no crime. Many groups did that: the Naga National Council, Mizoram based groups, the Razakars etc. So, within the parameters defined by the Indian Constitution, the Justice Party and later DK did nt operate illegally.

The moment the Act to ban secession was passed, DMK removed this agenda point from its party manifesto. That is how history has evolved. Now you may dislike it and whine about following "nationalistic" thoughts and wearing the nationalistic pins on your lapel. But the Justice Party or the DK did no crime, they did what was not forbidden. Whether that means these acts were allowed does nt fit within the legal ambit of the question. If you are disallowed from doing something and if you do it, that is crime. If you are not disallowed from doing something, and you did it, that is not crime whether you like it or not. In short, your words are meant to appeal to the heart and mind, will be thrown out in a court of law as being infra dig.

[SwamyG]

Me defensive This is what you said, I provide the whole post, so that I include as much context as possible.

ramana ji, RamaY ji, and all others,

in the beginning of this thread, was there an analysis on the forces that are pushing for T and what their motives could be?

I have seen many TN people support T. this could be a repetition of the Cholas backing Eastern Chalukyas against Western Chalukyas.

it is possible that there are forces which want to see a Coastal Andhra that is administratively separated from "inland" so they can later extend their influence into the Upper Coastal areas of East Coast.

When Cholas played the EC against WC, they were one of the most powerful empires on Earth with influence reaching to SE Asia.

if in today's times, TN was a bastion of Dharma and represented strong interest in Bharatiya Civilization, I wouldn't be worried about it. but the deep penetration by EJ's in TN and also Coastal AP is very worrying.

Why did you not say "TN Christians" or "TN EJs" instead of the term "many TN people"? In fact the "many TN people" also include telugus, because there is large telugu speaking population in the state. By insisting the Chola-theory, you are imposing past political decisions as a framework on to the current population. In the past they were separate Kingdoms. Now, we are States of a large country.

I have not accused of name calling. Neither I am moralizing. I am just pointing out how idiotic your line of thoughts are.

[devesh]

^^^
hmmm.....now you are down to nitpicking. fine, i'll admit, the language I used was misleading.

[Muppalla]

And Muppalla, for your kind information, DK's claims to secessions were not Constitutionally banned till ~1960-62 iirc. Till then, whether you like it or not, seceding or claims to seceding were no crime. Many groups did that: the Naga National Council, Mizoram based groups, the Razakars etc. So, within the parameters defined by the Indian Constitution, the Justice Party and later DK did nt operate illegally.

The moment the Act to ban secession was passed, DMK removed this agenda point from its party manifesto. That is how history has evolved. Now you may dislike it and whine about following "nationalistic" thoughts and wearing the nationalistic pins on your lapel. But the Justice Party or the DK did no crime, they did what was not forbidden. Whether that means these acts were allowed does nt fit within the legal ambit of the question. If you are disallowed from doing something and if you do it, that is crime. If you are not disallowed from doing something, and you did it, that is not crime whether you like it or not. In short, your words are meant to appeal to the heart and mind, will be thrown out in a court of law as being infra dig.

In Telugu there is a saying "eeye raayi aithe nemi moham pagala kottukotaniki" which means by using any stone/boulder one can break ones head as the choice of the type of stone is irrelevant. You are back to legal nitpicking. It is fact that DK vision of some illusionary Dravidians extend from south India to Burma and for this portion it is okay to have British government for ever as opposed to some God-damn aryan-north Indians ruling them. Thank God my ancestors brought AP out of this incest filled intellect .

To me Tamils Vs. Telugus fissures are very simple. These are not at commoners levels but at intellectual levels. Both sides of the intellectual side have their own visions. The clash of these visions is what we see as fissures and the rest of the topics such as Madras, Tirupati etc. is all rhetoric as all these things can be interpreted/manipulated using arguments based on which side you are bidding. Google searched docs will have both sides versions. Authentictity is like "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"

The Telugu intellectual class has no speciality. It just took the vision and story of India. While strongly maintaining the Telugu identity, it rigourously blended into pan-India concepts of one nation, one national language and all that we see anywhere in India. Even the regional party such as TDP did not find traction to alter the original ideas. All that TDP did was to fight selfishly for the economic goodies.

With no offence, based on my personal interactions (both face-to-face and internet fora) the intellectual Tamils are two types(again IMO onlee):

(1) a set of Tamil Brahmins (there is a sub section such as Mani Sankar Ayiar class too) who has their own tunnel vision. According to this class they go to extreme levels of purification of India that does not have Muslims/Christians and also they see some extreme dire consequences to India due to EJs. This class in their writings put AP as some EJ headquarters. In addition they write freely the percentage of EJ populations. In some folklore they even write 40% of AP as Christian.

(2) Even today there are substantial fans of DK ideals and this is the class who are very happy to see Telangana seperation and it is a jijjii-naka-jijjii-naka dance time for this intellectual class as it is like a revenge. They still see that seperation of AP from Madras state is a really killer of DK ideals of building a fictious South Indian/Dravidian cultural entity with Tam leadership. To their surprise they saw their next door districts such as Chitoor and Nellore which are sprintable distance from Marina beach are suddenly accepting Hindi as national language and openly saying we don't have anything common with DK. This sore point will never die.

As I know a lot of AP (especially Telangana, coastal, north-coastal districts), I wanted to utilize my current India visit to verify this damn stuff of EJ personally. I have made a point to visit all that I know and I have toured villages and did contact locals and also surveyed certain aspects in this regard. Though I had certain disappointments (especially in Krishna district) but the situation is not even near alarming state as it is made out on internet. Though I have extensively toured Chitoor district, I don't have a mechanism to gauge the stuff in Rayalaseema areas. All I can say is that Chitoor district is just having more Temples apart from the historic temples. EJ stuff seems to be completely absent here.

From my vantage point, the EJ stuff is just in three districts (Krishna, Guntur and Prakasam). I will not comment about Rayalaseema (Anathapur belongs to this region). I even vistied Visakha, Vijaynagaram districts. To my surprise, even the Tribal lands are not having EJ stuff and this is where I though would be more.

I really see a conspiracy of thoughts when someone says "you Andhras are EJs" and hence your enemy is EJs and first deal with them or if someone says T folks want to purify themselves from EJ-Andhras.

[vnadendla]

http://www.gulte.com/news/916/Congress- ... Telangana-
Congress 4 point formula on Telangana? September 24th, 2011, 09:41 PM IST
Though Congress is not giving much importance to the Telangana strike sponsored by TRS, one delegation from congress is yet to reach Hyderabad for discussing on the possible ways out. It is learnt that they will bring 4 point formula to T leaders. According to that, these might be the options in the circulation.

Option 1: Make Hyderabad as common capital of A and T, extended the borders to make Hyderabad as UT.

Option 2: Make T – leader of their choice as CM for a particular period from congress or TRS

Option 3: Go for voting, which districts wants Hyderabad as their capital then creates new state based on the demand from districts.

Option 4: Create North Telangana state with Adilabad, Nizamabad, Karim Nagar, Warangal and Medak, rest of districts with AP.

May not be true. Such a strong stand is not in character of Cong over last few months. However if it is true there is light at end of tunnel.

Option 1: Make Hyderabad as common capital of A and T, extended the borders to make Hyderabad as UT. -If T-vadis agree.
Option 2: Make T – leader of their choice as CM for a particular period from congress or TRS - If T-vadis don't agree but are willing to compromise
Option 3: Go for voting, which districts wants Hyderabad as their capital then creates new state based on the demand from districts. - If T-vadis don't agree but are not willing to compromise and are not belligerent
Option 4: Create North Telangana state with Adilabad, Nizamabad, Karim Nagar, Warangal and Medak, rest of districts with AP. - If T-vadis don't agree but are not willing to compromise and are belligerent

[RamaY]

This is what K Rosaiah said about Dec'9 developments per a news report in GreatAndhra.com based on KR's interview to media before going to Madras as TN governer.

The Dec/9 statement was shown to KR. KR told INC leadership that it is impossible to pass that resolution in AP Assembly. Then PC asked him "The intelligence reports are saying that it will be a blood bath on 12/10 chalo-assembly parade if a statement is not made immediately". KR Replied that he was confident of maintaining law-and-order and would resign on the same day (12/10) if he fails in doing so. The congress head (Sonia?) said "who asked for your resignation, dont even mention that". PC said "OK, please return to Hyderabad. I will talk to you over phone". And once KR got on to the plane PC went ahead and released 12/9 statement saying that "Telangana state formation process has been initiated".

Per the original plan, KR was supposed to go to KCR from Shamshabad airport and inform that "I spoke with delhi high-command on all matters, please end your fast". But once he reached Hyderabad the chief secratery informed him about PC statement and the jubliation in TRS camp. If KR was allowed to make the statement on 12/9 after returning to hyderabad and end KCR's fast it would have been a congress win. But because of PC's chidambara-rahasyam congress lost that opportunity and the entire credit went to KCR.

Realizing this KR decided to go home instead of going to NIMS. In the meantime KCR called him and asked him if he is comig to NIMS. KR replied that "there is no point coming there as the fast ended".

[devesh]

Muppalla garu,

you mentioned 2 categories. I personally think it is a lot more complicated that that. there is a subset of Brahmins in every part of India which feels "separate" and "distinct" from the "masses". this subset until recently was content to talk about "purity" and "rules and regulations". but in the "modernization" period since the 70's, this subset has started producing an "intellectual" class which feels alienated from rest of India and hence has become the forefront of Anti-India hatred by dominating the academic discourse via various tools like Marxist history.

there is still a portion of this subset that continues to insist on "purity" and "rules and regulations". this class will continue to produce the "anti-India intellectuals" and deracinated Urban youth who think wearing Jeans and going to a bar is "modern" and "development" and the definition of a "powerful" India.

this subset needs to be submerged into a more balanced and nationalistic demography.

[Stan_Savljevic]

In Telugu there is a saying "eeye raayi aithe nemi moham pagala kottukotaniki" which means by using any stone/boulder one can break ones head as the choice of the type of stone is irrelevant. You are back to legal nitpicking.

Yes, when you dont have facts to back up your case, the most random-est excuse you can come up with is "legal nitpicking." Let me tell you this: in most matters that matter, it is only the legality of the argument that matters. If you dont like that, sorry cant do much. Legalese is one thing by means of which most if not all problems can be resolved. If you dont believe that, you dont believe in the Indian Constitution and the power vested with the Judiciary in India. In short, legal nitpicking may be a good excuse for a bar-room brawl, but when you come to a forum and want Madras city by being the second largest group, want to pisk-analyze the DK and Justice Party and blame them for "anti-national" acts when such acts were clearly not forbidden, you are projecting your current state of affairs and mind to what happened in a different era. The DK and Justice Party were reflections of a certain India, an India of the 1920 to 1950s period when the idea of India had not crystallized clearly, when quite a few people had been wary of the Centre vs. Provinces rights, when regional and cultural identities were looking for a desperate pressure valve, etc. If you put 2 and 2 together with the fact that the very same people stopped being "anti-national" when such acts were forbidden, you dont have a case. Case dismissed.

It is fact that DK vision of some illusionary Dravidians extend from south India to Burma and for this portion it is okay to have British government for ever as opposed to some God-damn aryan-north Indians ruling them. Thank God my ancestors brought AP out of this incest filled intellect .

And thank god, we Tams have to put up only with one set of openly hypocrite leaders. What would our good fortune have been to put up with open hypocrites and hypocrites in hiding? If Tam population is linguistically chauvinistic, so is the Telugu side. Just that you guys dont accept facts as facts. In fact some of the statements made before AP was formed sound pretty much like what the Justice Party said about Tamil in those days. Just that noone is calling the cat as a cat. Here is a sample, including tidbits on what happened:

Konda Venkatappayya in 1916: "The Andhras' are not only historically great, but their superior qualities over the Tamils will be revealed if a separate Andhra state is formed." {sounds eerily like the Kakatiya reminiscences of this dhaaga}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah: "My object is to elevate the Andhra movement into a sub-national movement and not allow it to be equated with depressed class mission or a backward community movement." {if anti-nationalism of the DK type is a no-go area, a sub-nationalism of the AP type is ok?}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah: "Indian nationalism will bloom only when Provinces are reorganized into sub-federations along natural and linguistic lines." {same as above}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah: "People in the North should learn one of the south Indian languages and every Province, if possible, might learn the language of its neighbor." {this is exactly what C.N. Annadurai said in the Parliament: learn our language, we will learn yours. If he said that, he is a chauvinist, if PS said that, he is a nationalist?}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah in 1938 when a demonstration was made on Rajaji, who was falsely accused of having opposed the creation of an Andhra Province: "All Andhras' must hang their heads in shame." V. Ramadas Pantulu made it clear that both the Madras cabinet of Rajaji and the Tamil Nadu Congress favored the creation of Andhra Province. The letter Rajaji wrote to the Secretary of State definitely recommended this move. {reminds me again of this dhaaga when Tams are dissed despite what they did nt say.}
Tamil Nadu Provincial Congress Committee in July 1938: "We deplore the mentality exhibited by certain Andhra leaders for leading a campaign of vilification and hatred against the Tamilians and the Prime Minister Rajaji." {same as what I say to you guys}
Costa leaders in response to Rajaji offering ministerial berths to some Rayalaseema members in his 1937 Cabinet: "Rajaji is dividing us on the pretext that the Andhra University was formed in 1926 in Coastal Andhra whereas no University is there in the Seema areas." {first of all, Seema-Costa dynamic is between you guys. Why should I be blamed if one of the two of you feel grief over the other party? Rajaji was the Premier of Madras Province, not of the Tam speaking areas alone. This was 1937, so he was in his right to offer ministerial berth to anyone in the Congress Party. Now if you see two things as motives, it only reflects your self-guilt.}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah before the Sri Bagh Pact: "'Coastal friends' should be prepared to deal with the interior districts in a manly, generous, chivalrous, and patriotic manner. Then a united Andhra desa could be formed." {same as what was said during the Gentleman agreement days, just that the other party seems to have a different reflection of what was agreed upon.}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah in 1939: "Nationality to be real must seek its strength in the strength and integrity of the Provinces. There is no hostility between nationalism and federalism. But exceptions could be made. If a state was of manageable size and population, there was nothing wrong with a multi-lingual state. For instance, Hyderabad could be an ideal sub-federal multi-lingual state, although Telugus, Kanarese, Maharashtrians and Muslims were living in it." {so even PS was not averse to the idea of two states which speak the same essential language. Just that you guys choose to use PS and honor him when he suits your agenda, and you ignore his views when his views dont suit your agenda. Wonderful.}
Pattabhi Sitaramaiah in 1953 after Andhra state was formed: "I cannot accept a small thing and surrender the movement for Visala-andhra." {but then noone is happy with what they get, dil maange more.}

Muppalla, when you talk about Brahmin intellectuals and pisk-analyze them, why not make the point that most of the Andhra movement stalwarts including Konda Venkatappayya, Pattabhi Sitaramaiah, N. Subbarau, Kandukuri Veerasalingam, etc., were all Brahmins? I think charity should begin at home, start by pisking all the above people and trying to figure why they were in the forefront of either social reform or formation of Andhra state.

[Muppalla]

The DK and Justice Party were reflections of a certain India, an India of the 1920 to 1950s period when the idea of India had not crystallized clearly, when quite a few people had been wary of the Centre vs. Provinces rights, when regional and cultural identities were looking for a desperate pressure valve, etc. If you put 2 and 2 together with the fact that the very same people stopped being "anti-national" when such acts were forbidden, you dont have a case. Case dismissed.

A British brought out or sold out nut case portion of India. Any other description is just a sugar coating to justify acts of incest. Period. That is how the case should be dismissed.

Muppalla, when you talk about Brahmin intellectuals and pisk-analyze them, why not make the point that most of the Andhra movement stalwarts including Konda Venkatappayya, Pattabhi Sitaramaiah, N. Subbarau, Kandukuri Veerasalingam, etc., were all Brahmins? I think charity should begin at home, start by pisking all the above people and trying to figure why they were in the forefront of either social reform or formation of Andhra state.

Hats off to them for liberating AP from the incest.

[SwamyG]

^^^
hmmm.....now you are down to nitpicking. fine, i'll admit, the language I used was misleading.

Seriously, what nitpicking, huh? You go of spouting something that includes "TN People" and then go to the extent of basing your theory on Chola did yada yada to EC and WC, so it can happen again 'theory'. And when I point that out, you call it nitpicking. No saar, it is objecting to your premise, and hence what I call as faulty theory or conclusion. If you think your theory is strong, then all you had to do was layout your theory for further inspection. Yes, you did do that to some extent. But then you had only the EJs to point out. I am not sure if you follow IF. I have listed the FRCA reports on EJ funding for a long time on IF. TN and AP clearly get lions share of the money. The entire India is in the 10-40 window.

vnadendla:
Anecdotal evidences can be used to prove many things. My wife's family are telugu people from Madras. Until I married, I never knew that Mandavelli, Thiruvamyur, Mylapore ityadi area had so many telugu people. Based on their caste, I think they pick the a corresponding tamil accent. Some of my wife's family members speak 'chaste tamil brahmin dialect'. Most of the time, people do not care about these things at a personal level. Some of the family does complain that 'tamil brahmins' look down upon 'telugu brahmins', but they have never complained about total discrimination while seeking jobs. They are happily married and well settled. Some consider themselves as tamilians who speak 'telugu'. Funny, yes that is how we Indians. We always find ways to live harmoniously in 'alien' lands. I know several tamilians living in AP, who speak such great telugu and conduct their lives as an AP person would do. Infact one of my close friends, moving from TN to AP learned telugu in less than 6 months, because he hated Hindi and did not want to speak Hindi in Hyderabad.

[Stan_Savljevic]

You can dismiss it any way you like or should I call it, "the beauty lies in the eye of the beholder" theory . For anyone serious enough to understand what went on, facts are there to be read, sieved, winnowed and pisk-ed. Or you can choose to self-congratulate yourself on your nationalism and others parochialism.

[Muppalla]

You can dismiss it any way you like or should I call it, "the beauty lies in the eye of the beholder" theory . For anyone serious enough to understand what went on, facts are there to be read, sieved, winnowed and pisk-ed. Or you can choose to self-congratulate yourself on your nationalism and others parochialism.

Thanks. I wish you all the best to go and tell the analysis from Tibet to indonesia and to Sri Lanka. I am small human.

[SwamyG]

(1) a set of Tamil Brahmins (there is a sub section such as Mani Sankar Ayiar class too) who has their own tunnel vision. According to this class they go to extreme levels of purification of India that does not have Muslims/Christians and also they see some extreme dire consequences to India due to EJs. This class in their writings put AP as some EJ headquarters. In addition they write freely the percentage of EJ populations. In some folklore they even write 40% of AP as Christian.

LoL. My suspicion to your reactions, when I pointed out EJs in AP, was something along this line. Not all people who highlights such facts can be neatly fit into our buckets, or other people whom you may know. You know who I am talking about

[Muppalla]

LoL. My suspicion to your reactions, when I pointed out EJs in AP, was something along this line. Not all people who highlights such facts can be neatly fit into our buckets, or other people whom you may know. You know who I am talking about

Probably yes. However, I may be wrong. Send me an email please.

[SwamyG]

Here is one perspective of the Brahmins vs non-brahmins in employment in the 1910s:
http://tamilnation.co/caste/nambi.htm

In my opinion, even people like Rajiv Malhotra have missed in understanding the social conditions in then British India. EJs & Europe countries have always exploited our fissures. The best way to tackle them, is get people a decent living standard in a hurry across our country.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Boss, why are you posting DK/JP propaganda here? They have called the site Tamilnation, dont you see? They are bloody anti-Indians. Please take a hike to Tibet, Indonesia or Sri Lanka if you want, this place is reserved for Partition bleats onlee.

[SwamyG]

LoL. My suspicion to your reactions, when I pointed out EJs in AP, was something along this line. Not all people who highlights such facts can be neatly fit into our buckets, or other people whom you may know. You know who I am talking about

Probably yes. However, I may be wrong. Send me an email please.

Done.

[SwamyG]

Boss, why are you posting DK/JP propaganda here? They have called the site Tamilnation, dont you see? They are bloody anti-Indians. Please take a hike to Tibet, Indonesia or Sri Lanka if you want, this place is reserved for Partition bleats onlee.

All you have to do is show that the numbers were wrong. Them being statistics, there is probably a margin of error. So show me how their study was biased, show me how their measurements were wrong, and how their conclusions were wrong. So if you end up showing me that the margin of error is 98%, then case closed kaada?

[munna]

Great and stimulating debate! Although the discussion has veered away from Telangana to a Tamil VS Telugu debate, it has certainly enlightened me on a lot of counts.

I would like to put in a word about so called Chndigarh model. The partition of Punjab into Haryana and Punjab was a faulty one based upon flawed language census of 1961 that got communalised due to Akali VS Arya Samaj stand-off.
It was also the first time that a dominant linguistic group within a state was asking for a separate state to concentrate it's hold on power. Haryana did not ask for statehood instead it were the Akalis who demanded Punjbi Suba and ended up messing a lot of things.

Coming back to Chandigarh, it is an extremely small enclave of land which had little commercial activity in 1966 and was just a sleepy pensioner's paradise. The agreement on Chandigarh was not something that was to be in place for perpetuity. In fact in 1987 it came very close to be transferred to Punjab. Chandigarh is a dispute in slow motion and not certainly a model of conflict resolution. Contrary wise it is symbolic of a dispute left unresolved and cause of a lot of heartburn in Mohali and Panchkula. Chandigarh is no template for Hyderabad, period. Hyderabad should either go to Telangana or be a city state like Delhi.

[Stan_Savljevic]

SwamyG, what statistics geetistiks? Have nt you heard the phrase lies, damned lies and statistics? The beauty lies in the eye of the beholder, gotcha?

Munna, the Chandigarh model however you like to think of it as an a-model of conflict resolution is how compromises are made in India. According to the 1950 Constitution, in 1960, Hindi was to be enforced as the sole national language. In 1960, due to varied levels of violence from the South, the deadline was extended to 1965. In 1965, as a "reward" for CNA siding with India in the 62 war, the deadline got extended once more and then became indefinitely extended. This is how conflicts are resolved in India. The merit of Hindi as a national language is thrown out and not discussed, non-sequiturs such as support for India in the 62 war are brought in, and a wild == is made that if not for this quid pro quo, CNA and DMK would have sided with china. This is how propaganda is built. Actually, people in the know and making decisions know the immorality of such decisions and accept that behind the screen, but sell it to their audience in the form of propaganda and misinformation. And some form of that propaganda is rehashed by people who cant get themselves informed better.

Chandigarh will remain the joint capital in perpetuity. Neither side has the onus to lose or win an inch, so a stalemate is an acceptable compromise. And Indic thought allows such subconscious dualism. Remarkably, the Indian establishment and the paki "establishment" (whatever crap that is) are coming to the same stalemate on changing the J&K LoC. As of now, most of the new idiots to be joined back are extremized already, nothing to gain. For the pakis, the bleeding is hurting more. If India needs to retake what is rightfully ours, India needs to stand to gain something remarkably significant to push it from its stalemate line of thought. And the gain has to come at a very low cost. Hot fart wish so far.

[Muppalla]

Coming back to Chandigarh, it is an extremely small enclave of land which had little commercial activity in 1966 and was just a sleepy pensioner's paradise. The agreement on Chandigarh was not something that was to be in place for perpetuity. In fact in 1987 it came very close to be transferred to Punjab. Chandigarh is a dispute in slow motion and not certainly a model of conflict resolution. Contrary wise it is symbolic of a dispute left unresolved and cause of a lot of heartburn in Mohali and Panchkula. Chandigarh is no template for Hyderabad, period. Hyderabad should either go to Telangana or be a city state like Delhi.

Chandigarh model is extremely difficult for AP. The games and arguments are all over. They have to create Telangana with HYD as capital and take the fires to otherside with what should be the next capital of Andhra. The complexities are all at this time in politics. They declared in Dec 2009 a state called Telangana and then they paused it until a commission's report. It is time they should take some decision. It should have been easy as they lead both central and AP governments.

There are several under currents going on:
(1) The Rayalaseema section of AP (adjacent to Tamil Nadu) is vehmently opposed to split and they want a seperate state in case Telangana is formed.
(2) If Rayalaseema is given then there are three districts of North AP (Vizag, Vizayanagaram and Srikakulam) want a North Andhra state. This is at a nacent stage but if T and R are formed they have to take care of this too.
(3) Above all, the Business community in Hyd (not just Telugus but the types such as Ambanis, Tatas ) are all opposed to Hyd being part of Telangana. They clearly see a pattern of MNS and Shiv Sena style hafta collectiong ops in Hyd. These groups are the ones who run the governments these days irrespective of the parties that rule.

Hyderabad has really become a game changer in the negotiations. For the T-seperatist parties, a T formation without Hyd is not a win-sell but an extreme lose-sell. And hence the stalemate.

From congress party's perspective, they are just losing the entire state and several of their internal survey are confirming that. It is not about survival manuvering anymore but it is about future positioning for a recovery.

Taking this reasoning, the congress party has put a strategy:
(1) They want to checkmate Jagan with CBI and other blackmailable stuff so that in the end he can be a Sharad Pawar or a Mamta. Even for this granting a T is a no-no.
(2) Insider and grapevine news is that if TRS cheif KCR goes beliigerant they have created CBI based stuff to stiffle him too.

On the resolution side, they are trying to worn out the agitationists. What next after all the agitations? How long one can sustain hartals? The common Telangana man will get tired as they are losing their daily wages, school/study times. The government has a tight leash over the agitationists and are ensuring that violence is not easy.

My gut feeling is at an appropriate time they will create some packages that include a T-CM for atleast two years of the term. As a start they may make KCR as CM after a brief President's rule.

I really do not think the central government that is deeply stuck in scams has any hunger to create more fires out of AP by creating T. Too bad for the T sentiment.

Added later:
The MIM of Hyderabad also opposed T state again and they are in favor of state that has both Rayalaseema and Telangana. You know very well that congress party will not go against Muslim sentiments as they think that is their last bastion.

[SwamyG]

Munna: Have you read the book "Nandas and Mauryas" edited by KAN Sastri? Fascinating book, if you have not read, I highly recommend you to buy it.

Stan: The Chandigarh model will not work for AP. Hyderabad being jointly administered would be like East and West Berlin.

[chaanakya]

Guys, tell me How Hyd can be anything but capital of telangana in case of bifurcation or trifurcation????

[RamaY]

By being this




OR

By making Rangareddy, Mahabubnagar and Nalgonda Districts into Hyderabad UT

[KLNMurthy]

I can't believe I am seeing this unseemly aandhrulu-aravalu wrangling on bharat-rakshak forum. I am dismayed beyond words.

Are the mods sleeping?

[ramana]

Folks enough bashing. Please stick to topic.
Thanks, ramana

[ShyamSP]

Guys, tell me How Hyd can be anything but capital of telangana in case of bifurcation or trifurcation????

Arya Chaanakya:

Read SKC report where maps were drawn for couple of options for how it can be common capital or UT.


Hyderabad was built by robbing (money and sweat) from North-eastern Karnataka, Central-South Maharastra, Telangana, Rayalaseema,
and Coastal Andhra.

It was common Capital of all those provinces. How was it possible?

Then came Nizam sold Northern Circars (North Coastal Andhra) and Rayalseema to the French and British, respectively.
In turn French sold Circars to British (or was it British took over Circars?). Nizam further sold Southern Circars to British.

Then Hyderabad became common Capital for North-eastern Karnataka, Central-South Maharastra, and Telangana.

Then India got so-called independence by having power transferred from White Britishers to Brown Coconuts.

Then Nizam bottom got Whopped.

Then Hyderabad became common capital of Telangana, Rayalaseema, and Coastal Andhra.

Hyderabad has further been developed by robbing money and sweat from Telangana, Rayalaseema, and Coastal Andhra.

Then we have political games to screw AP by XYZ (fill in the blanks).

Relevant question is: how can Hyderabad be Capital of only Telangana in case of birfurcation or trifurcation or quadfurcation or .... x-furcation?

[vnadendla]

Guys, tell me How Hyd can be anything but capital of telangana in case of bifurcation or trifurcation????

Arya Chaanakya:

Read SKC report where maps were drawn for couple of options for how it can be common capital or UT.


Hyderabad was built by robbing (money and sweat) from North-eastern Karnataka, Central-South Maharastra, Telangana, Rayalaseema,
and Coastal Andhra.

It was common Capital of all those provinces. How was it possible?

Then came Nizam sold Northern Circars (North Coastal Andhra) and Rayalseema to the French and British, respectively.
In turn French sold Circars to British (or was it British took over Circars?). Nizam further sold Southern Circars to British.

Then Hyderabad became common Capital for North-eastern Karnataka, Central-South Maharastra, and Telangana.

Then India got so-called independence by having power transferred from White Britishers to Brown Coconuts.

Then Nizam bottom got Whopped.

Then Hyderabad became common capital of Telangana, Rayalaseema, and Coastal Andhra.

Hyderabad has further been developed by robbing money and sweat from Telangana, Rayalaseema, and Coastal Andhra.

Then we have political games to screw AP by XYZ (fill in the blanks).

Relevant question is: how can Hyderabad be Capital of only Telangana in case of birfurcation or trifurcation or quadfurcation or .... x-furcation?

Time for the provinces to rob money and sweat back. The reverse direction is difficult. The pie is too small to divide. So let us get it just for ourselves is T - Claim.

My grandfathers brother robbed him. X caste robbed Y caste and in turn got robbed by Z caste. A language robbed B language. Lets close it and say victimhood is not inheritable.

I say North-eastern Karnataka, Central-South Maharastra, Telangana, Rayalaseema, and Coastal Andhra get your own capitals. Just make Hyderabad UT.

Better Idea. Whole of AP as UT.

[ramana]

What did you think AP was during the long years of INC rule?

[pradeepe]

Pardon me for again for kind of simplfying things but from my vantage point as I see things if the goons/radicals are actually harassing the people for the cause of a new state then shouldn't they stop after creation of the new state

No. I dont think so. Creation of a new state won't stop the goondagiri, I think it will make it worse, cause the happily-ever-after, milk-and-honey that the T-leaders are promising will not be there. So the inevitable will follow. Goes back to the question, why in the first place. One valid reason.

are we saying that Govt. of the day will be foolish enough to let go of these people who have contributed to the city's growth just because a few radicals think so

Yes I think so. Cause the T-proponents will form the govt and they are the radicals. Every political party in the fray for this seperation including the BJP (yes I lean right) is a c*****ya.

Sorry for the selective quoting. I dont have very many answers. I am trying to figure things out myself.

[Yagnasri]

I am surprised with the timing of the agitation and the blind insistence on continuing the agitation come what may. We all know that there is no one safe in Delhi from Media and opposition attacks. Starting from MMS to small small leaders in the states like Digambar Kamat (Goa CM) are now very very busy saving themselves. In such conditions to expect that any one gives a damn about AP state is stupidity. Yet the leaders are busy promoting the disturbances in entire Telangana. No one is ready to even consider the impact of this agitation on I.T. B.P.O. and Medical companies who employ huge no of people in Hyderabad. The people who are suffering are also people of Telangana only. What is the position of the daily laborers etc in any prolonged agitation like this one? No sane leadership will do like this if the formation of a new state is the sole aim. It is like " we saved the village by destroying it"

There is clearly a deeper motive for this which is to create a serious disturbances and braking of law and order in Telangana and facilitate return of Naxals.

[Aditya_V]

Boss, why are you posting DK/JP propaganda here? They have called the site Tamilnation, dont you see? They are bloody anti-Indians. Please take a hike to Tibet, Indonesia or Sri Lanka if you want, this place is reserved for Partition bleats onlee.

All you have to do is show that the numbers were wrong. Them being statistics, there is probably a margin of error. So show me how their study was biased, show me how their measurements were wrong, and how their conclusions were wrong. So if you end up showing me that the margin of error is 98%, then case closed kaada?

Swamy G a couple of Quotes

n the other hand Brahmin scholars and historians contended that South India was a more marshy jungle and the reclamation was started by the Aryans who migrated into South India during the period of the Sutras (750-350 B.C.). (6) Northern sources refer to Dravidian languages as the Paiiaci (prakrit), the language of demons.(7)

he first Aryan stranger, who swam south across the trackless jungles, was dazzled with the splendour of the Royal Pandyan courts, and he was not too proud to seek shelter in the hospitable Tamil land that smiled to a sunny clime "

No where in Hindu scriptures is it claimed that South India was a Marshy Jungle between 750-350 BC and Aryans conquered Dravidians. Thats a White Lie. You cant take what European fiction and state that it is what Hindu scriptures say.

if Hindu religious scholars thought "Dravidian(TAMIL) as the language of the Demons" why are Naal Aayira Divya prabandam and Naayanar language written in Tamil and why is Tamil referred to as Language emanating from Shiva's mouth.

So their Foundation of the entire ideology is based on a White Lie that Tamil is Described as Tamil as 'Language of Demons' in Hindu Scriptures. Nowwhere do religious Hindus claim this

Rev. Fr. Ambrose, a Christian, moved a resolution in the Coimbatore Non-Brahmin Conference, explaining the objects of a Central District Association in Coimbatore. (74) Therefore it may be concluded that from the point of view of most of the non-Brahmin leaders with the exception of leaders like Dr. Nair, the term 'non Brahmins' included in its compass non-Brahmin Hindus excluding the Panchamas, but including the Muslims and the Indian Christians.

This a beauty, a person wants the whole society should unite and go after religious Hindus. Isnt that plain bigotry.


Now to the core of what the grouse seems to be

The non-Brahmins form the bulk of the population, and almost all the Zamindars, and rich landed proprietors, and the bulk of the thriving merchants and dubashas belong to this community: But yet ... the community as a whole has not sufficiently realised the importance of the benefits of Western education, and ... it has, as a result of this apathy, been left behind in the race by other and more pushful communities. The non-Brahmin is certainly not wanting in intelligence, if only he tries to develop it ".

The Crime of the So called Brahmin commnunity seems to be even they were not rich wealthy Landords, or business men but they took to 'Western English Education' and occupied Government jobs taking power away from the Traditional Powerholders and worst being Religious Hindus they were also a block to Evangelisation. Hence, the whole movement seems to be is get back Government Posts from Evil Brahmins so no one harm the Business interests of the Zamindars and rich Merchants. This has been successfully achieved with Dr. Artiste Family now being the richest in TN with Business interest in every sector.

[suryag]

KT Rama Rao in talk with Tammaredy Bharadwaja

I dont see any difference in his telugu accent, is his only grouse the lack of development in Telangana ? If thats the case then a Telangana council with Telangana CM should solve the problem ? no ? On a side note this guy speaks pretty good English, wonder what he used to do before he entered politics(wiki says he was in the US)

[Aditya_V]

KT Rama Rao in talk with Tammaredy Bharadwaja

I dont see any difference in his telugu accent, is his only grouse the lack of development in Telangana ? If thats the case then a Telangana council with Telangana CM should solve the problem ? no ? On a side note this guy speaks pretty good English, wonder what he used to do before he entered politics(wiki says he was in the US)

Boss, Just try valuing KCR and properties near TRS office in Banjara hills - even though the Hyderabad property market is down, it is still worth a Fortune.

P.S- KCR is one Politician who knows how to deteriote is his body condition fast go to ICU and then recover miraculously and jump on to a Rally Jeep- all done within 48 hours.

[ShyamSP]

KT Rama Rao in talk with Tammaredy Bharadwaja

I dont see any difference in his telugu accent, is his only grouse the lack of development in Telangana ? If thats the case then a Telangana council with Telangana CM should solve the problem ? no ? On a side note this guy speaks pretty good English, wonder what he used to do before he entered politics(wiki says he was in the US)

His name is K "Taraka Rama Rao" named after NTR. I think he studied in Coastal AP, went to US, came back started businesses (with his dad's earnings with YSR partnership) with Andhra partners. His political entry is by kicking out a dedicated TRS candidate who ran as rebel against him. His sister married to a Coastal person, may be him too. His father was politically brought up by NTR in TDP and later he started scheming with Congress to kill TDP.

They exemplify real back-stabbing politics and shameless money-making.

[ShyamSP]

Jagan-Congress-TRS tango. Jagan is also bringing his T-buddies to attack Congress as he may not completely trust TRS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkPfEQWM2iE

[SwamyG]

Aditya: We need to take that to the off-topic thread.

[devesh]

if Jagan becomes CM, he will prove to be a formidable Asura. will be a variant between Hiranyakashipa and Bali.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Can Nalamotu Chakravarthy (who has been seen on this dhaaga a long time back) come forward for a debate on the contents of his book vis-a-vis how Madras became a part of Tamil Nadu? I suggest that you revise your book on this aspect as per known records (which means the full text of the Dar Commission report, JVP Committee recommendations, Pattabhi Sitaramayya's books on Provincial politics within the Congress and elsewhere, the voting framework and leading powerholders in pre-47 India with focus on Madras Presidency, Selected works of Jawaharlal Nehru, Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel's correspondences, memoirs of Rajaji and Prakasam, how Madras != Bombay in terms of ==, etc.). On the other hand, if you want to defend what you have written in your book, you are hereby challenged to not only the authenticity of the interpretations therein, but also the factual content.

As can be seen on this dhaaga, you are responsible for educating a whole set of Internet-capable Telugu speakers on how Madras was unfairly lost to the Andhra state. The JVP Committee recognized this possibility when they remarked that, "It seems impossible to restrict the aspirations of the majority to the confines of the city and as far as we can see its isolated existence would be a perpetual source of conflict between Andhra and Tamilnad." So I am hereby inviting you to set the record straight and ensure that the reality is brought out in its full glory.

If not this dhaaga, OT is fine too.