Telangana Monitor

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 30 Sep 2011 22:38

nvishal wrote:^
Self-rule is the significant purpose of this de-merger.

De-merger? what de-merger? it is Independence na...

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 30 Sep 2011 22:55

nvishal wrote:^
Why are you trying to mock me? Why do you think I'm smoking something?

"Swaraj" simply means "self-rule"; what is so creative about it?
Self-rule is the significant purpose of this de-merger.

It is reasonable thing to ask de-merger which means undoing whats written in constitution, putting Hyderabad state back, and/or undoing language-based SRC. All of those will involve decades of court cases even if BJP and Congress want to destroy Andhra.

Swaraj! what s beautiful concept. We want swarajya for Hyderabad from T and T goons. Can we get it? You can then have your swaraj.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 30 Sep 2011 23:09

kmkraoind wrote:KCR signals support for Telangana plus two - CNN-IBN

HYDERABAD: TRS chief K Chandrasekhar Rao added a new twist to the Telangana tale by indicating that his party would be open to a bifurcation of the state with the inclusion of Kurnool and Anantapur districts in Telangana. He signalled his openness to such an idea in order to secure the support of the Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen.

Missed this subtlety before.

BJP position is like as Telugu expression goes "Kukkalu chimpina Visthari" (leaf plate that's torn by dogs). They want to dump BJP for MIM.

VenkataS · Post by **VenkataS** » 30 Sep 2011 23:38

Surasena wrote: language based states are a post British construct.

I do not get what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that language based states are bad because British didn't govern/rule India this way prior to Independence or that any deviation from how the British governed/ruled us is bad. Language based states may be a bad idea but I do not think it is because they were a post British contstruct.

British rule set us back by several decades with respect to the rest of the world. But we have been independent from them for more than 64 years now. Let us fix our house the Indian way with Indian solutions to Indian problems.

VenkataS · Post by **VenkataS** » 01 Oct 2011 00:16

VenkataS wrote:Why not carve out a new state for each district in AP. If we have 23 new states carved out from present day AP, we can have true self-rule for people in these new states with only people born in those states and those who swear allegiance to that state and speak the local dialect can be chief ministers in those states. We can have 23 new chief ministers/home ministers/cabinet ministers, assembly buildings, state electricity boards, high courts etc and everybody can be happy.

If Delhi, Sikkim and Goa can be states in our union why not have states for Adilabad, Srikakulam and Chittoor.

If metropolitan areas of present day Hyderabad end up in 5 new states in this scenario then we can have independent localized plans for each of those areas for the benefit of the respective areas. We can have a metro serving present day eastern suburbs of Hyderabad administered by Nalgonda state and mono-rail serving present day northern suburbs of Hyderabad administered by Medak state and it does not matter if they are not linked up as well (why would they be linked up anyways?).

If we can have 23 new states, each state can demand fair share of water based on the amount of river water flowing through the respective state before 19th century irrigation projects altered the landscape. Each state can get the water which nature intended it to use. If some states in this scenario do not have any flowing rivers or large water bodies then they can be left to fend for themselves.

States rich in mineral deposits can export them to other states and extract a hefty tax from those states. Also imagine the number of state government jobs in each of these new states. This guarantees that everybody in these new states can have a local state government job if they so choose.

In order to prevent frivolous statehood claims (such as a statehood claim for Tenali for example) we can stipulate that a state can only be formed if its land area is greater than the smallest state in India at the time of its formation.

I think this plan should be acceptable to most people. It guarantees self-rule for all people and everybody can look after their own interests. What say you all?

I cannot seem to be able to edit the above quoted post. Is editing disabled after a certain time.

I was being sarcastic in the above quoted post. Creating new states without proper economic/social/cultural justification only helps in creating additional burearcracy, increases redundancy in horribly inefficient government departments and creates the wrong kind of new jobs (state government/public sector jobs instead of private ones)

A new Telangana state may or may not be good for the people in present day Andhra Pradesh and India in general but the way that this agitation is progressing is deplorable.

Terming a certain section of the states population as settlers, asking for their removal from Telangana so that their jobs and property can be reclaimed by Telanganites, destroying our cultural heritage/legacy/symbols (vandalism of the statues on Tank Bund), resorting to extortion from businesses operating in Telangana, attacking of government employees/officers in Telangana (if they are thought to be from Andhra), attacking movie stars such as Mahesh Babu because his family is from Andhra, assaulting Jayaprakash Narayan, violence in and around Hyderabad is disgusting to say the least.

I guess it says more about the law and order situation in the country and confidence in the government in general that agitating T population thinks that all these acts are OK and justified towards the realization of their cause.

If we can be termed as settlers in our own country how can we dream of achieving true national integration. What does it mean to be an Indian then? It should not matter where you are born in India, you should have the same duties, responsibilities, and rights as every other Indian citizen. An Indian citizen born anywhere in the country should be able to relocate to any other part of the country where there is an opportunity for his/her skills-sets and be able to start a new life and establish roots there, free of hassle from the government or any other person. Sadly it seems that we still aren't at this point yet in 2011.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 01 Oct 2011 00:19

nvishal wrote:It is interesting to read the comments from andhra people(ramana and gang) on BRF trying to keep the status quo.

How hard is it to understand T's attempts to reclaim its lands and establish self-rule? An assembly containing T majority rather than an andhra/seema combine where T has always been a minority?

Reclaim the land..What gang member are you? Did you start a 'kabja' company yet, to steal the property from andhrites (Sorry it is called reclaiming)? For your information T will be minority forever in the Indian Parliament. Do you want to reclaim the land from India too? When all the stealing (reclaiming) is over, what is your next agitation? Separate country?

20 years later, the state of andhra will look at telangana and claim that the split was amicable. Telangana will have interesting story to tell about it's statehood. The past cannot be changed at this stage. After all, how many interpretations can possibly justify the police actions of 1969? Any attempt to distort tainted history can only amplify it.

I can't wait for the 20 years to go by. With deluded memory, the separatist gang will continue their whining on how andhrites forced the division and conspired with nature to steal the low fertile lands, prosperous coastal area while leaving high plateau to them. They are capable of searching the history with microscope and highlight any dissent they can find and rewrite the history. All they need is another idiot like Jaya Shankar. Why 20 years, in less than 10 years, KCR will be kicked out labeling him as an andhra agent planted by andhrites to kick Telangana out of AP.

20 years from now, it will be regarded as the most disgusting and filthy political movement, epitomizing the peak of morosis of Indian politics. If division really happens, let us hope at least the rest of the country will learn from this disaster.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Oct 2011 00:29

Surasena wrote: language based states are a post British construct.

Most definitely not. You can nitpick on the idea of explicit language based states, still Orissa was de-merged from Bengal much earlier than 47. Assam Province was de-merged from Bengal primarily on language reasons even if there was no unique lingua franca in what became Assam. There were many contested identities which run their full course even today. Bihar and Bengal wanted to merge back, but then there were issues on Bengalis being administration dominant and Biharis being labor dominant and this re-merger did nt go through. In terms of linguistic identity, Bengal and Andhra were far ahead in terms of becoming regional in vision.

In any case, from Marshall Windmiller's work in the 50s,

Like so many political movements in India, the agitation for lin- guistic states had its origin in Bengal. Prior to i905 the British had grouped Bengal with Bihar, Orissa and Chota Nagpur into one prov- ince, but it soon became apparent that this tremendous area was ad- ministratively cumbersome. In i905 Lord Curzon, then Governor General, partitioned the area, the eastern portion being joined with Assam and the western portion with Bihar and Chota Nagpur. Admin- istration, from the British point of view, was made easier for a time, but the action set in motion political forces which ultimately vitiated any administrative improvements.

The partition of Bengal was a blow to the influence of the Bengali- speaking Hindus. This large and vigorous community was divided into two parts, each of which constituted only a minority in the new province to which it had been assigned. Thus in the two Legislative Coun- cils the Bengalis did not have the representation to which they believed they were entitled by virtue of the size, wealth and importance of their community. The situation was made worse by the fact that in East Bengal the Bengali Hindus were outnumbered by the Muslim popula- tion, and it was thus inevitable that Bengali politics should take an anti-Muslim turn.

The Bengalis were not long in launching a vigorous agitation for reuniting Bengal. This agitation took all forms, including violence, and ultimately the British were forced to make concessions. On August 25, i9ii, the Government of India, over the signature of Lord Hardinge, then Governor General, sent a dispatch to the Secretary of State for India in London recommending that His Majesty's Government reunite the province of Bengal and separate it from Assam, Orissa and Chota Nagpur. It was suggested that simultaneously the capital of India be removed from Calcutta to Delhi, the historic seat of Hindu and Mogul empires. Whitehall agreed to the proposal and the decision was an- nounced at George V's great Durbar in Delhi in December of that year.

The success of the Bengalis in their agitation for linguistic unifica- tion was noted by other linguistic groups in India. If this had not been made clear by the events themselves, it was certainly implicit in Lord Hardinge's dispatch, which said in part:
"The opposition to the partition of Bengal was at first based mainly on sentimental grounds, but . . . the grievance of the Bengali has become much more real and tangible, and is likely to increase instead of diminish. Everyone with any true desire for the peace and prosperity of this country must wish to find some manner of appeasement, if it is in any way possible to do so...

"No doubt sentiment has played a considerable part in the opposition offered by the Bengalis, and in saying this, we by no means wish to underrate the importance which should be attached to sentiment even if it be exag- gerated."3

It is not surprising that this dispatch when published was interpreted by other linguistic groups as indicating the efficacy of agitation based on sentiment and the amenability of the Government of India to it. To some it also became apparent that linguistic agitation could be a useful tool with which to harass the foreign ruler.

The first important linguistic movement to develop after the Bengal agitation appeared in South India in the Telugu-speaking area of Madras known historically as Andhra or Andhradesha. Inspired by local writers and orators from Bengal, Andhra intellectuals in May I9I3 convened a conference from which an organization known as the Andhra Mahasabha emerged. Although the advancement of Telugu culture was its primary aim, the Andhra Mahasabha ultimately became a political organization dedicated to the formation of a separate Telugu- speaking state.

It was natural that the Andhra people should seek to have their aims endorsed by the major Indian political party, the Indian National Congress. Consequently in i9i5 they called upon the Congress to recog- nize Andhra's ambitions by granting it separate status in the adminis, tration of Congress affairs. Both Gandhi and Annie Besant opposed the proposal, but it was finally accepted by the Congress in I9I7, and Andhra and Sind became separate "Congress Provinces.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Oct 2011 00:54

Stan,
Do you have access to Windmiller's other works say in Journal of Intelligence etc?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Oct 2011 01:20

Are you looking for this: "A tumultuous time: OSS and army intelligence in India, 1942–1946"? I dont have access to this, but can get it from Worldcat via ILL. Can you email me at standuude AT yahoo in case its something else?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Oct 2011 02:19

Yes that it. You might want to read it too!

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 01 Oct 2011 02:32

I don't want to attack or support the idea of Telanagana or Samaikya Andhra. As we see, there is a great deal of resentment in Telangana that they lose out opportunities to Kosta people. Even if they are may not be 100% true, we all know that in order to get into influential (or lucrative) Govt. jobs or projects, influence/money is a factor in AP. The most influential people are few caste/wealthy leaders in CON party and TDP. That is fact.They do support people they know or from their community. No one helps each other because they are from same region/town but they would help because of nepotism/caste/family connections. Since the powerful are from Guntur, Krishna districts, they help their friends and families from these places and this process goes on. Overall, there is some validity to the claims of T people. This carries on several fronts: recruitment, promotions, decision making of Govt. projects.

Unfortunately Govt. is too much influential whether it comes to jobs or projects. The private sector has much lesser discrimination than public sector but as of now AP is still a big Govt.

1. We can keep on fighting for ever. T vadis can attack Andhras and tell them goet out of Telangana and start harassing common man. Andhras can block separate state and call Tvadis as Pakis. What is the end result?

2. After Telanagana state, suppose people from Hyderabad, Medak, Rangareddy districts corner all the jobs, would Tvadis argue to split Telangana into 2 different states? How about Northern Andhra? Srikakulam, Vizianagaram districts are the most backward.

3. Telangana could resolve all the problems Tvadis identified or not since most of the issues are related to Big Govt., Mis Governance, Nepotism. The unfortunate things is that Tvadis don't normally see the fact that common man in Kosta is as helpless as they are since the nepotism, caste-ism and money power are key factors and way yo perpetuate the dominance of some minority group of people.

We kind of divide ourselves on communal, casteist and any possible lines we can think of as a way to come to grips in an unfair society that is constantly mis-governed.

Some times I wonder, as an out of box thinking:

Lets cut AP horizontally or vertically into 2 or 3 parts for administrative reasons. You take your pick. Draw an imaginary straight line vertically or horizontally without any prejudices and think how such a situation can work just like the states were formed in the USA. So some Telangana districts would go with some Andhra/Rayalaseema districts and other would go with the rest.

Can we analyze such a scenario? May be Satya_anveshi/nvishal can give his perspective.. Others are welcome too.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Oct 2011 02:36

Have put a request at ILL. Will email you when I get a pdf.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 03:29

The way some folks keep referring to SRC as a complete and unreserved support for linguistic states fail to realize that in the case of Telangana/Andhra and in a few other cases, it expressed concerns, reservations and made the case conditional on mutual agreement.
Here is the extract from the recent SKC referring to SRC:

The SRC, with the above recommendation regarding the residuary
part of Hyderabad, had clearly given an indication that, at that point of time in
1955, it was not sure as to whether its immediate merger or unification with
Andhra was the best or most satisfactory answer and that is why it wanted
enough time to be given to the people of Hyderabad to think about the matter
and determine their future after the general elections that were likely to be held
after six years or so.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 03:50

OK based on repeated “Paki” references towards Telanganites and general condescending “attitude” towards them on this forum made me take a look at this a bit seriously and lo and behold the serendipity.

After spending all these years on BR we all become pchaddis on Pakis right?. And here are their major characteristics just to jot your memory:
Lying, Cheating , Stealing, Dhimmitude, TFTA ness, Tactical Brilliance come across major attributes. Right? Let's look at the commonality:

1a. At the onset of this alliance, who has signed Gentlemen’s agreement with Telanganas only to reneg on it immediately after by the original signatories themselves?
1b. Now compare that with the Standstill agreement signed by Pukis with Raja Hari Singh of J&K only to reneg on it and attacking to initiate this long drawn conflict India is in with Pukis.

2a. Folks keep referring to SRC in a way that suggests their understanding that it provided unreserved case of Telangana/Andhra merger but in reality the merger proposal was conditional. It is in that context the Gentlemen’s agreement was agreed to and arrived at but we know how that agreement was dealt with by Andhrites
2b.Now compare this to the India approaching UN in regard to J&K settlement and UN recommendations thereof for both nations of India and Pak. Consider how, now, Pukes bring UN agreement without regard to the initial condition put by UN to vacate J&K before a plebiscite can be arranged. Pukes conveniently ignore their mauling the case themselves and yet at every international forum never forget to mention that India was in violation of UN.

3a. which state’s economy was facing uncertainty pre-merger – this is historical fact documented in SRC. On the contrary the financial situation of Hyderabad state (even that of present day Telangana) was much better with revenue surplus (this is also an historical fact documented in SRC / SKC); It is obvious who stood to benefit from the alliances and to what purpose.
3b. Now compare the situation of Puki economy during inception which needed India giving money from its treasury in spite of Pukes declaring war on India.

4a. Like it or not, Telangana is/was also part of special regional entities whose concerns were safeguarded by mutual agreement and later by Indian constitution; but yet massive influx of people from Andhra began flowing with complete disregard to agreements; no such movements took place from Telangana to Andhra;
4b.Now compare that with the influx of puki pathans into POK & NA in spite of agreements and thereby forever changing the demography of J&K. It is one of the major issues for us today making the problem beyond rescue.

5a.Legendary puki dhimmitude (“Islamic Republic” –sirf naam hi kaafi hai) did not stop NWFP from vocally objecting to their joining Pakistan but with India (in spite of being non-contiguous to India) and yet have been given no option.
5b. Now compare dhimmitude of Andhrites in respect of the “Telugu” hegemony and domination even when Telanganas are saying no thank you.

6a.We all know the TFTA vs SDRE analogy in the Indo-Paki context
6b. Now this is going to hurt I know..try to apply that analogy in the Andhra-Telangana context and the neo-paki will reveal to you

Well I can go on in support of tactical brilliance of “Andhra IT” compared to Paki IT …you know what I would likely to find if I dig this further.

So, beaches, mull over it and reflect.

Telanganas fought real Pukis (Nizam’s militias/rajakkars) to join India but let’s not prove that we fell for neo-Pukis within.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 01 Oct 2011 03:51

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Surasena wrote: language based states are a post British construct.
Most definitely not. You can nitpick on the idea of explicit language based states, still Orissa was de-merged from Bengal much earlier than 47. Assam Province was de-merged from Bengal primarily on language reasons even if there was no unique lingua franca in what became Assam. There were many contested identities which run their full course even today. Bihar and Bengal wanted to merge back, but then there were issues on Bengalis being administration dominant and Biharis being labor dominant and this re-merger did nt go through. In terms of linguistic identity, Bengal and Andhra were far ahead in terms of becoming regional in vision.

In any case, from Marshall Windmiller's work in the 50s,

My bad I was trying to say that they came in after the advent of British rule not that they didn't exist (or the ideas didn't exist) under Brit occupation, wrong choice of words. Should have said "post British invasion construct".

I remain in favor of abolishing all language based states including AP, good riddance the day they go.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 01 Oct 2011 04:11

VenkataS wrote:
Surasena wrote: language based states are a post British construct.
I do not get what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that language based states are bad because British didn't govern/rule India this way prior to Independence or that any deviation from how the British governed/ruled us is bad. Language based states may be a bad idea but I do not think it is because they were a post British contstruct.

British rule set us back by several decades with respect to the rest of the world. But we have been independent from them for more than 64 years now. Let us fix our house the Indian way with Indian solutions to Indian problems.

I used the wrong choice of words, what I was trying to say was that this idea is a post British invasion construct.

I mean the idea of states/provinces based on language took root during British occupation.

You won't find a single example in our 4800 years of history before British occupation the idea of provinces based on your language or at least I haven't.

Even republican clans like the Yaudheyas never established their state based on language.

Study Savarkar's "Letters from Andaman" where he rightly foresaw this idea as divisive and to the determent of the nation.

Where in history was this mythical one province of Telugu speakers?

And what does this state have to do with survival of Telugu as a language or culture. Those existed long before AP came into being.

The true threat to the survival of Telugu comes from English dominance, look at the dialogues in so called "Telugu" movies these days and compare them to the 50s and 60s. Half the words (even the most common words like uppu for salt) are replaced by English words.

I am not against borrowal of words, but where is the need to replace even the simplest existing words and basic building blocks of a language such as "amma" and "naanna/naayana" with "mummy" and "daddy".

So what Telugu pride and "survival" are we talking about?

Soon future generations will be singing "avaru Telugu mummyki jaasminu gaarlaandu" (instead of "maa Telugu talliki malle poovu danda") and call it Telugu.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 04:23

should I have added to my previous post:
When you add the Paki fear of water control by evil Indians (and Andhra fear of Telanganas controlling water in this context as evidenced by a post on the previous page) and Paki false pride in everything Mughal - I think the sucker completely fits the model in toto.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 01 Oct 2011 05:56

Satya_anveshi wrote:should I have added to my previous post:
When you add the Paki fear of water control by evil Indians (and Andhra fear of Telanganas controlling water in this context as evidenced by a post on the previous page) and Paki false pride in everything Mughal - I think the sucker completely fits the model in toto.

First talk about Paki fear of not able to live with India and the effort to prove that their ancestry is from Arabia, just like T separatists desperate attempt to distance themselves from andhra, disowning Potana, the author of Andhra Mahabagavtam. Rudramdeva, the self proclaimed andhra sarvabhouma, then your analogies will be straightened.

As long as law of gravity holds good, there will be no water problem for down stream delta area. Every year around 3000 TMC of water goes to Sea from Godavari. So the whining of our western neighbors that somebody is stealing their water and their fear of eastern neighbors is just that. If maharastara and Karnataka builds upstream dams it is ok for T, but if the water goes to andhra all hell will break lose, just like India centric hatred of Paki, generously giving lands and port rights to China but fight out with India for a land that doesn't belong to them. Enough of sickening Paki analogy.

As far as name calling, it is institutionalized in the T struggle as it was founded on hatred. No T speech is complete, without spewing disgusting hatred on andhrites, lest the movement will die very quickly. Don't lose that perspective when you whine here.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Oct 2011 06:05

From the reports the Core criminal gang has discussed Telangana agitation yesterday and no decision was taken. So more draging will be there.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 06:28

Dasari,

You don't dissapoint me - I completely expect you folks to ignore the core idea. Pukis hate India inspite of India being more than fair to them. But EVEN IF you think telangana struggle is based on hate, history tells us this is not unjustified. I, and any third party, will have hard time looking at Telangana struggle from that perspective knowing history of your swindling them regardless of how much clout you may have in media and how much noise you may create.

I also completely expect you to back off from the paki analogy which I why I had to take the trouble but you were quite fine when others referred those terms. nice. I am only waiting for a well know admin also to pitch in at any moment when he was quite enjoying the show otherwise.

Now what of potana and rudramadevi relevent to this - are you referring to tankbund incident when the two statues of these personalities along with 32 or so were brought down by mob? Are you comparing these with the *intentional and institutional failing* from Andhra side to keep the bargain? Are you guys for real?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 08:12

vijayk wrote:I don't want to attack or support the idea of Telanagana or Samaikya Andhra. As we see, there is a great deal of resentment in Telangana that they lose out opportunities to Kosta people. Even if they are may not be 100% true, we all know that in order to get into influential (or lucrative) Govt. jobs or projects, influence/money is a factor in AP. The most influential people are few caste/wealthy leaders in CON party and TDP. That is fact.They do support people they know or from their community. No one helps each other because they are from same region/town but they would help because of nepotism/caste/family connections. Since the powerful are from Guntur, Krishna districts, they help their friends and families from these places and this process goes on. Overall, there is some validity to the claims of T people. This carries on several fronts: recruitment, promotions, decision making of Govt. projects.

VijayK,

Meaningful dialog start with honest admission of facts and opinions. I was reading earlier that a practice followed earlier in India (there is a specific sansrit term) whereby until one understood the opponent's perspective down to the detail, you would not disagree with contrary opinion. Only after you confirmed your understanding of opponent's opinion, you will begin to point flaws/propose to show merits in your argument. What you mentioned above is a norm in India and not just in AP. My theory is that there may be historical reasons for jugaad which are inevitable when there is a kind of master-slave relationship. Master always wants some "trusted" guy to keep his interests safe. Because all of us were screwed by furriners, every one would try bring their trusted reference or take some kind of short cut. Ultimately we made it a fine art.

1. We can keep on fighting for ever. T vadis can attack Andhras and tell them goet out of Telangana and start harassing common man. Andhras can block separate state and call Tvadis as Pakis. What is the end result?

In this case, the issue is the cost of separation or keeping it together. Currently the political cost of separation is high for Telangana folks and political cost of status quo for Andhrites is minimal. Economic costs of separation for Andhrites could be high but can go higher based on how the resentment turns out. IMO the devil is in this detail. You can bet your bottom rupee that those who bring "Telugu" pride here will sell themselves for a song if they see benefits of separation or high costs of status quo.

in other cases, folks with insecurity - they are programed to resist separation even when things are not working out. There is a difference between separating within Indian union and parting away from the sovereign.

2. After Telanagana state, suppose people from Hyderabad, Medak, Rangareddy districts corner all the jobs, would Tvadis argue to split Telangana into 2 different states? How about Northern Andhra? Srikakulam, Vizianagaram districts are the most backward.

This is similar to what Nadendla was rhetorically asking in response to my post yesterday and which I could not respond. so, let's look at this. My post was about context. If we have a sizable section and localization is achived with minimal conflict, we should go for more localization as possible with an eye on future administrative issues as well. However, if there is potential for conflict then we need to look at the overall context based on actual and perceived grievances, history, alignment with established legal framework as well as looking at it from future perspective. That's a general comment aka verbal vomit in response to that.

Concern about northern districts of AP is understandable and I know what the situation is besed on personal visits/relation and family ties. But that is the point also right? When do those areas get more focus? does it not make the case of smaller managable entities? If Telangana is separated, I fully expect northern andhra and parts of western orissa will stand to benefit. Hopefully those districts will learn some lessons from Telangana while opening the gates wholesale for you know who

3. Telangana could resolve all the problems Tvadis identified or not since most of the issues are related to Big Govt., Mis Governance, Nepotism. The unfortunate things is that Tvadis don't normally see the fact that common man in Kosta is as helpless as they are since the nepotism, caste-ism and money power are key factors and way yo perpetuate the dominance of some minority group of people.

Telangana by its own is/was and will be a very viable and progressive state. As better as any within Indian state and my strong belief is it will become stronger minus the overlords.

We kind of divide ourselves on communal, casteist and any possible lines we can think of as a way to come to grips in an unfair society that is constantly mis-governed.

Like I said, let's not give-in to insecurities and abhor separation just for the heck of it. If union is not working and relations become irreparable, embrace change/separation.

Some times I wonder, as an out of box thinking:

Lets cut AP horizontally or vertically into 2 or 3 parts for administrative reasons. You take your pick. Draw an imaginary straight line vertically or horizontally without any prejudices and think how such a situation can work just like the states were formed in the USA. So some Telangana districts would go with some Andhra/Rayalaseema districts and other would go with the rest.

Can we analyze such a scenario? May be Satya_anveshi/nvishal can give his perspective.. Others are welcome too.

This is a fancy idea which will work in certain situations. It will be extremely difficult in India given its history, demography, and spread of resources. Further you could not do this in isolation but as a wholesome fix of the nation. Possible we could have looked at it in 1947 but again totally unrealistic also. And lastly, if one finds it impossible to implement readymade solutions needing tiny-winy leadership to ensure alignment WITHIN party, implementing such radical solutions in Indian context needs kutub minar size of you know which organ.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 09:59

I find the following quote mentioned in SKC before prologue and unsure what the F was the motive of duggal ji to mention this.

“In ages long past a great son of India, the Buddha, said that the only real victory was one in which all were equally victorious and there was defeat for no one. In the world today that is the only practical victory; any other way will lead to disaster”.
Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru speaking on „Disputes and Discord‟ in the United Nations General Assembly on October 3, 1960

I find it surreal imagining how massively fu(ked up Nehru was in mind to first of all believe in this (in the context he was in) and to quote it in UN. Equally amusing is why this particular quote was felt fit to mention it in SKC. This is a very minor point perhaps and neither my concern reflects on the other parts of the report but this provides a window into the worldview they hold.

My read of this quotation in today's "practical" world...I lack b@lls to call spade a spade. Offender can keep offending and he will not be called a winner not the loser be called ever such. There is no game, no contest, no foul plays for if there is one their will be a winner but I don't believe there is a winner or loser. all is same same. Just leave me alone.

WTF?

I mean the report is crying out loud not to read it as it is a waste of time unless indecision and more confusion was the mandate given to shri duggal ji. If that is case, I think he is truly chakian to give a clue right upfront else he too is royally screwed up in his mind.

F'ing morons.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 17:00

having used the various recommended options printed on a tissue paper and using it for the only apt thing - below is my proposal on how the center and state leader should solve this issue forthrightly and fairly.

Given the benefits Andhrites accrued over all these years sucking resources and oportunities out of Telangana upon which Andhrites build their formidable wealth now in every sphere. It is the same wealth with which they are able to buy political and economic influence all across. This more than makes up for the any potential costs andhrites have to incur in building another capital in favorite place of their choice in Seemandhra. Telangana on its part has incurred more than its fair share of costs in terms of lost resources and lost opportunities.

In return of protecting and keeping the pace of Hyd development unhindered , political movers and shakers at centeral government and Telangana should come to the decision of split along Telangana and Seemandhra with unfettered handoff of Hyderabad to Telangana where it belonged/belongs and without making any further complication.

Present seemandhra's economy is not in tatters as it used to be pre-merger; Telangana, having been glued in with Indian administrative norms, will be able to manage itself better (that was the only fault of it anyway for getting into this mess). If they still want financial help, Indian capital/financial markets will be more the eager to help with all the required funding to build 21st century capital in Seemandhra where all Indians will look forward to building their dream career

More than anything, youngsters will have two big cities within present day AP to look for building their career which is all teh more better.

It is all a question of leadership at center to recognize this grievance at all levels in Telangana and come to the conclusion without further delay. This will correct the course in every respect.

Seemandhrites may be opportunitic but hopefully still not that edit to be total lost case to understand commonsensical solution when explained.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Oct 2011 17:22

I finally visited a lot of interior T that includes Karimnagar and Nizamabad districts. I have thoroughly enjoyed the completely non-violent T agitation. I may have extensively toured AP after a real long time.

A lot to write as I have learnt a lot of insights from rural and forming folks. The folks on the street are far mature than some of us here at BRF and definitely we are all better than the worst-media folks we have.

It is now an extreme complex political and economic situation for AP with a stalemate. Both India, AP or Andhra and Telangana has worst leadership probably in a century.

(I will try to write details of each point that I learnt slowly but surely as I have one last week of vacation to go)

One thing that shocked me was when KCR said he is ok to have two-R districts when everything related to agitation was going okay. He seems to be deeply involved in mining crap.

Central government is looking for a compromise solution and that is leading to all sorts of problems as it is not going to be happy ending for T state. The biz is sold on Greater-HYD as UT. KCR seems to be agreeing for compromise. The fear is that some other T force will take over calling him as traitor.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 17:32

UT solution is a disaster from the get go. From the current situation of fox guarding the hen house, now we are making one hen and one fox guarding the hen house. What type of mofos come to and propose these type of solutions?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 17:58

My recommendation to Telangana folks is to not budge anything less than what is only fair. Part of their difficulty is not escalating the cost of status quo. Most of the resentment shown today in Telangana has peaceful overtones in general (relative to stakes involved) and/or giving themselves more pain hoping by doing that Andhrites will understand the resentment. Andhrites are going easy because they can afford to this with minimal impact while continuing to benefit. Again this is a leadership issue 101.

If there is a threat of rising higher costs of status quo - this could come from various sources, which have not been explored at all for whatever goddamn reason. But IMO this will be politically and economically challenging. for example, the current agitation of 19 days ..frigging 19 days of school/college and entire civic life disturbed in Telangana and with hardly any impact to Andhrites / hardly any media coverage BUT because the festival season is upon us and therefore will impact andhrite interests more so and other parts of civic life in most horrendous ways, this whole negotiations are progressing and/or happening.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Oct 2011 22:49

As expected congress leaders in Delhi say they need more time and more consultations. No salaries for staff of state government this month for the period of agitation. No politial gain seen by COngress in division or in taking any decision. SO no decision.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Oct 2011 22:55

Satya-anveshi garu,

Since you reached the pinnacle of truth you might want to change your handle to just "Satyam". No need for any more Anveshana.

By the way do you know the strategist called "Zaid Hamid"? He too have great ideas!

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Oct 2011 23:38

Thanks for the compliments but no thanks. I still see a lot of adharmas happening in the world to take care of so will leave the name as is.
Oh Yes, I know Zaid Hamid very well. In fact his is one of my shishyas who is gone awry. Because instead of listening to lessons, he kept cheating in tests, stealing from his neighbours, tempared with this resumes and showed jihadi tendencies. I had to dump him eventually. Not very unlike how Telanangas want to dump Andhras.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Oct 2011 04:16

Satya-anveshi garu,

The truth and dharma/a dharma is within you, there is no point looking outside. Similarly the success of Telangana progress lies in Telangana only and nowhere else. You cannot achieve anything by blaming others.

There is nothing wrong in asking for separate state. The issue is with unsubstantiated allegations on other telugus and paki-jihadi type rhetoric.

You need to understand the difference between all these soundbites. Then only you can do some good to your fellow telugus whether they are in AP state or a future T-state.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 02 Oct 2011 04:29

Thanks for confirming that you are blind to see the light even when someone holds you by the ear and shows it.
If you have nothing meaningful to say, hope you don't continue to defecate here or insult others intellect by talking words like "satya", "anveshana", "dharma" etc.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools speak because they have to say something" - Plato

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 02 Oct 2011 04:30

Satya_anveshi wrote:My recommendation to Telangana folks is to not budge anything less than what is only fair. Part of their difficulty is not escalating the cost of status quo. Most of the resentment shown today in Telangana has peaceful overtones in general (relative to stakes involved) and/or giving themselves more pain hoping by doing that Andhrites will understand the resentment. Andhrites are going easy because they can afford to this with minimal impact while continuing to benefit. Again this is a leadership issue 101.

If there is a threat of rising higher costs of status quo - this could come from various sources, which have not been explored at all for whatever goddamn reason. But IMO this will be politically and economically challenging. for example, the current agitation of 19 days ..frigging 19 days of school/college and entire civic life disturbed in Telangana and with hardly any impact to Andhrites / hardly any media coverage BUT because the festival season is upon us and therefore will impact andhrite interests more so and other parts of civic life in most horrendous ways, this whole negotiations are progressing and/or happening.

My recommendation to andhrites is even simpler. Just ignore the goons and rowdys. What can they do? They can do some threatening and dadagiri. Some people under the disguise of truth may be on some 'anveshana' to do even more violence - sorry there is a new term for this.. 'how to increase the costs of status quo?'. But a satyagrahi should not bother about it. See the beauty of satyagraha is that it can be done against any evil. Even governments can do satyagraha against any evil force destroying the society. In fact Satayagraham is going in full force now. By refusing to submit to the wrong or to cooperate with them in any way, the satyagrahi, in this case the AP govt, asserts this truth. With each passing day the evil is slowly unraveling. Rasta rooks, rail rokos, sakala janul samme, indefinite fasts, what not every gimmick in the book is done to intimidate people. People suffered, but that is small price to pay for united AP. So let them bring on, time is on our side.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 02 Oct 2011 05:07

Yup that is more like it (sans again the morally uptight sounding "satyagrapah" because there is nothing to do with it). We have stripped off all non sense souding false logic and arrived at the what really is the core stand of Andhrites do nothing as we are the status quo beneficiary adn will continue to milk it till the costs increase.

this is what I was saying. Thanks for playing. It is for leadership to take heed of this dynamic and in the overall interest of the nation should recognize the issue for what it is and do the needful.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Oct 2011 05:12

If there is a threat of rising higher costs of status quo - this could come from various sources, which have not been explored at all for whatever goddamn reason. But IMO this will be politically and economically challenging. for example, the current agitation of 19 days ..frigging 19 days of school/college and entire civic life disturbed in Telangana and with hardly any impact to Andhrites / hardly any media coverage BUT because the festival season is upon us and therefore will impact andhrite interests more so and other parts of civic life in most horrendous ways, this whole negotiations are progressing and/or happening

Costs! There is power cuts in Bangalore-Kerala because the coal rakes from Singaneri are not getting through to Raichur!

.

Anyways, keep this Telengana business peaceful, inclusive and get into reassuring the coastal folks that they are not going to get "kicked out" or whatever and it will be business as usual (except that probably Vizag and/or Tirupati (imagine!) or Cudappah would be capitals as well), things will be fine.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 02 Oct 2011 05:26

Vina saar,

Moi is a non-name nobody. But I believe that goes without saying that all that exist today should be grandfathered with assured protection and continued growth of Hyd and Telangana in general. Following is what I typed earlier:

In return of protecting and keeping the pace of Hyd development unhindered , political movers and shakers at centeral government and Telangana should come to the decision of split along Telangana and Seemandhra with unfettered handoff of Hyderabad to Telangana where it belonged/belongs and without making any further complication.

If you notice the Telanganas by nature are inclusive due to historical reasons - most districts are by more more diverse that ANY districts you will see in Seemandhra with the exception of probably Vizag.

With formidable resources that folks in Seemandhra currently have it wouldn't take huge deal to develop another world class capital in short time. Telangana will obviously will continue to supply the resources as it does now - we are not dealing with a choice to close the shop and setup elsewhere

I am sure you understand when I mean "costs" it is not "resource" costs but costs in terms of CBA "cost benefit analysis"

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 02 Oct 2011 05:38

Satya_anveshi wrote:I find the following quote mentioned in SKC before prologue and unsure what the F was the motive of duggal ji to mention this.

“In ages long past a great son of India, the Buddha, said that the only real victory was one in which all were equally victorious and there was defeat for no one. In the world today that is the only practical victory; any other way will lead to disaster”.
Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru speaking on „Disputes and Discord‟ in the United Nations General Assembly on October 3, 1960
I find it surreal imagining how massively fu(ked up Nehru was in mind to first of all believe in this (in the context he was in) and to quote it in UN. Equally amusing is why this particular quote was felt fit to mention it in SKC. This is a very minor point perhaps and neither my concern reflects on the other parts of the report but this provides a window into the worldview they hold.

My read of this quotation in today's "practical" world...I lack b@lls to call spade a spade. Offender can keep offending and he will not be called a winner not the loser be called ever such. There is no game, no contest, no foul plays for if there is one their will be a winner but I don't believe there is a winner or loser. all is same same. Just leave me alone. WTF?

I mean the report is crying out loud not to read it as it is a waste of time unless indecision and more confusion was the mandate given to shri duggal ji. If that is case, I think he is truly chakian to give a clue right upfront else he too is royally screwed up in his mind.

F'ing morons.

Is there a four-letter word-fest is going on? I thought this is PG forum. This makes the forum unreadable from any computer.

Hope admins clean it up.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 02 Oct 2011 05:43

vina wrote:
If there is a threat of rising higher costs of status quo - this could come from various sources, which have not been explored at all for whatever goddamn reason. But IMO this will be politically and economically challenging. for example, the current agitation of 19 days ..frigging 19 days of school/college and entire civic life disturbed in Telangana and with hardly any impact to Andhrites / hardly any media coverage BUT because the festival season is upon us and therefore will impact andhrite interests more so and other parts of civic life in most horrendous ways, this whole negotiations are progressing and/or happening
Costs! There is power cuts in Bangalore-Kerala because the coal rakes from Singaneri are not getting through to Raichur! .

Anyways, keep this Telengana business peaceful, inclusive and get into reassuring the coastal folks that they are not going to get "kicked out" or whatever and it will be business as usual (except that probably Vizag and/or Tirupati (imagine!) or Cudappah would be capitals as well), things will be fine.

Interesting! Maybe they should bring Singareni under ESMA (emergency services act).

Not sure how fire-and-rehire workers for government jobs nowadays.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Oct 2011 05:45

Interesting! Maybe they should bring Singareni under ESMA (emergency services act).

Dunno. Per what I read in papers, it seems the problem is more to do with the rail rokos etc, and the coal trains are not coming in.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 02 Oct 2011 09:59

vina wrote:
Interesting! Maybe they should bring Singareni under ESMA (emergency services act).
Dunno. Per what I read in papers, it seems the problem is more to do with the rail rokos etc, and the coal trains are not coming in.

Rail Roko was on for 36 hours only (and 3 more days starting Oct 9th).

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 02 Oct 2011 10:20

@Satya_anveshi

What a handle for someone who can't handle truth. Here are a few facts for you:
- there are no legitimate grievances that warrant a separate T state
- T people have no moral right to seek separate T now, after suppressing the Jai Andhra movement in 1972-73, under a T CM
- the movement is based on greed, jealousy and hatred (same ingredients as in separate P movement)
- corruption is a fact -- if a T person offers the same bribes as anybody else, he won't be discriminated
- dochukovadam: these days all the extortion is done by T goons
- the T people are a bit less adventurous and perhaps have less entrepreneurial spirit: that's why you see T people mostly staying put in their region and not grabbing opportunities elsewhere.