India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Sep 2011 01:10

Taygibay wrote: So that the IAF will get the same Rafales as the French AdlA.
Of course, as discussed on a European forum, this would not
include ASMP-A nuclear missiles for example. But if the weapon
itself is not included in the deal, all Rafales can be equiped with
the proper electronic casings ( a one and a half hour job ).

Since there is no major reason to deny our Indian friends the
Vesta and ANL tehnologies that render such a use possible, it
would only remain for India to develop a nuclear missile of the
proper size to enable this capacity which the upcoming nuclear
version of the Brahmos shows to be feasible.

Care to elaborate? What proper electronic casings are needed for the aircraft to be capable of nuclear strike?

Also I've never heard of the propulsion technology (?) developed under the VESTA program ever being available for export.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 26 Sep 2011 03:19

Sure, Viv S! The "nuclear" electronic casings contain the highly secure
"governmental authority keys" that the French government need to control
all aspects ( sûr & sécuritaire/ certain & secure ) of the nuke missions.
Those can be added as I said to all Rafales, although our government
prefers to have only two-seaters used for the role, also for security.
The planes are otherwise entirely similar to other Raffys which is
confirmed by the fact that when not in use for nuclear alert, those planes
are "mutualized" with the EC 1/7 and that they flew SCALP missions over
Lybia.
Those casings could and should be of Indian manufacture if your govt felt
a need for similar "total control" over that particular job in IAF use.

If one talks of "NEEDED" technologies for the nuclear missions, as you wrote
in your post, then the higher modes of SPECTRA are it but that is not clear
as there are virtually no public infos on them available. ( i.e. Active cancellation )

As for VESTA, this propulsion was intended for use on the ANF or Future
Anti-Ship missile which has since ( 1999 ) been abandonned and thus re-
mains officialy a Nuclear only technology.
It could be declassified as part of the MMRCA deal as tech transfer but that
is not the case at present.

Good evening, Tay.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 26 Sep 2011 04:41

@Taygibay^^^: I did not know Brahmos was in the same class as as the ASMP-A. The dimensions and weight seem to be very different.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 26 Sep 2011 06:19

LOL no they are not, Cosmo, I just meant that India has the means
to produce it's own version of the ASMP-A by downsizing the upcoming
nuclear Brahmos.

Read again :

it
would only remain for India to develop a nuclear missile of the
proper size to enable this capacity

which I wrote up there.

It would probably carry a lesser nuke warhead than the Brahmos will,
but there are more more than enough targets in China ......... errrr,
Ooops, lol, I didn't say that.

The ASMP-A is a light missile at around 830-850 kgs but the Scalp that
the Rafale can carry under the wings is 1,300 kgs and that is certainly feasible.

Good night all, Tay.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 29 Sep 2011 01:23

Brahmos with the rafale

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Sep 2011 02:06

Delay likely in aircraft bidding process
Deccan Herald

Sources in the MoD said the commercial offers made by the shortlisted contenders will expire by December, which might see the Centre opening the bids at least by then to avoid further delay in the process as it aims to induct the first set of aircraft by early 2014.

The MoD has shortlisted EADS’ Eurofighter and Dassault’s Rafale. Once the bids are opened, the lower among the two bidders will be engaged in commercial negotiations.Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) Commandant Air Commodore B R Krishna said: “The two were shortlisted as they comlied with the 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs).”

Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne recently said the commercial bids could be opened in mid-October. But the sources indicate that the process might take longer as the matter is before the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) again because some issues need to be sorted out before that.

Air Chief Marshal (retd) F H Major said: “There might be some more clearances that they have to get, otherwise there was no need for the matter to go back to the DAC. It was set up for the overall guidance of the defence procurement planning process.”

Among the issues to be discussed at the DAC meeting scheduled for October 7, the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, price optimisation and offset proposals made will assume prominence. With the falling rupee, if the deal is executed this year, there could be a considerable cost escalation even at current prices.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Sep 2011 02:07

Self deleted

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2011 15:07

"...falling value of the rupee".This is the hard truth of the MMRCA deal,when it comes before the cabinet for a final decision.With the defence cake getting smaller thanks to the rupee's fall,the slices for the services will also get smaller.Therefore if the cost [per aircraft is exceptionally high,and a relook of the other cheaper discarded aircraft not thought worthwhile,it is possible that the numbers of the MMRCA will be reduced to perhaps 80+,or the 120+ being the final number for procurement barring extras for attrition/war reserves,with options to buy/produce more Flankers,or even upgraded Jaguars for gr.attack/strike to keep numbers happy.The still awaited LCA looks like it will be overtaken mid-decade by even the FGFA and if and when that happens,the IAF will not want to buy an aircraft that is 1.5 generations behind the tech curve.What will also happen if the FGFA comes in when production is in full swing at marginally more than the MMRCA? The M-2000 upgrade for the 50+fighters is also only going to be completed from the official statements by the end of the decade-at the rate of just 6-7 per year,for an absurd cost?! There is a lot of ink that will flow under the bridge before the final contract has ink on it.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Oct 2011 02:47

Meet on MMRCA deal on Oct 7
Financial Express

: “At the DAC meeting, the offset proposals of the two shortlisted contenders will be discussed. Depending on the decisions taken and relaxations made in the proposal concerned, the commercial bids for the $10.4-billion deal will be opened on October 10.”

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Oct 2011 07:57

any rendering of brahmos on ef2k?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Oct 2011 15:23

Taygibay wrote:Sure, Viv S! The "nuclear" electronic casings contain the highly secure
"governmental authority keys" that the French government need to control
all aspects ( sûr & sécuritaire/ certain & secure ) of the nuke missions.
Those can be added as I said to all Rafales, although our government
prefers to have only two-seaters used for the role, also for security.
The planes are otherwise entirely similar to other Raffys which is
confirmed by the fact that when not in use for nuclear alert, those planes
are "mutualized" with the EC 1/7 and that they flew SCALP missions over
Lybia.
Those casings could and should be of Indian manufacture if your govt felt9
a need for similar "total control" over that particular job in IAF use.

If one talks of "NEEDED" technologies for the nuclear missions, as you wrote
in your post, then the higher modes of SPECTRA are it but that is not clear
as there are virtually no public infos on them available. ( i.e. Active cancellation )

As for VESTA, this propulsion was intended for use on the ANF or Future
Anti-Ship missile which has since ( 1999 ) been abandonned and thus re-
mains officialy a Nuclear only technology.
It could be declassified as part of the MMRCA deal as tech transfer but that
is not the case at present.

Good evening, Tay.

I would imagine developing an ASMP-A class missile would be considerably a bigger challenge for India than securing (already secure) nuclear warheads. Also the Indian SFC and NCA has its own security protocols and would probably reject any foreign involvement in classified aspects of the nuclear program.

VESTA technology, as you've said yourself, is not available for export today and there has been nothing to suggest that that policy will be reviewed in the future.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 01 Oct 2011 15:52

SaiK wrote:any rendering of brahmos on ef2k?

I've never seen one. But the EF can't be equipped with the Brahmos any more than the Rafale can (the neat looking sketch notwithstanding).

AFAIK the heaviest payload the Rafale's centre pylon is cleared for is a 2000L EFT weighing in at about 1700kg full. Even if it can be stressed to carry the 2500kg+ AL-Brahmos, the missile will not fit under the aircraft - the sketch omits the missile's cap which will interfere with landing gear.

vishal_shah · Post by **vishal_shah** » 02 Oct 2011 03:08

Viv S I gotta a quick ? for you. It's irrelevant from the current post.
Anyways I was wondering if you have the information regarding foreign degree acceptance by the Indian Army.

I would appreciate your reply as the SSC forms for April 2012 are out and I am interested in applying.

Thanks

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Oct 2011 04:43

Viv S wrote:
SaiK wrote:any rendering of brahmos on ef2k?
I've never seen one. But the EF can't be equipped with the Brahmos any more than the Rafale can (the neat looking sketch notwithstanding).

AFAIK the heaviest payload the Rafale's centre pylon is cleared for is a 2000L EFT weighing in at about 1700kg full. Even if it can be stressed to carry the 2500kg+ AL-Brahmos, the missile will not fit under the aircraft - the sketch omits the missile's cap which will interfere with landing gear.

There might have been some 3000ltr drop tanks from Rafale centerline, dunno exactly but there were noises. That is close to airlaunched B'mos. Cap shouldn't add too much length.

CM.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 02 Oct 2011 04:50

But, but ViVS, I agreed already to "the Indian SFC and NCA has its own security protocols".

As for Vesta technology, it could very well be included in the compensations
for the MMRCA tender if the Rafale was to be chosen, couldn't it?

Isn't it time to get creative on those?

That in itself would make the smaller version of the Brahmos possible.
All other technological "bricks" are well within India's reach unless I'm mistaken.
Plus, considering the size of the buy and the fact that the Raffy has not been exported yet,
there is no major reason why India should not become part of the future development
plans on our bird. Just think back to the proposal France made to Brazil about the FX-2
that included letting sales to the South American subcontinent be done through their
production line?
India could secure the same! Not only are you good partners so far but at least France
would not have to worry about you leaking our tech to China or Pakistan

As for Russia, France is already very active in partnerships over there, so no worries.

3 out of 4 nations in the BRIC ensemble fit present French foreign policy.
If Brazil can't cut it, let India profit from that?

It can also surmise about the weight being less of a problem than the girth
in the Brahmos' case as Cain mentioned.

Good day all, Tay.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 06 Oct 2011 07:02

TOI: Eurofighters escort President in rare honour

Within seconds of entering the Austrian airspace from Switzerland on Tuesday, two gleaming jets appeared suddenly on the left side of the President's plane.

Those inside the presidential aircraft started shooting the jets in frenzy. But, only with their mobile phones and cameras.

After about two minutes, one of the jets suddenly pulled back and flew to the other side of the aircraft. Everyone was just interested in getting the perfect shot of the plane which also opened its co-passenger shield as a mark of respect. The best view was just before landing as all three aircraft lost altitude and the jets were at an arm's length.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 06 Oct 2011 08:01

plane which also opened its co-passenger shield as a mark of respect.

i think the typhoons just deployed the air brake and the stupid journos are making it something else !

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 06 Oct 2011 11:09

^^^^ Well spotted. I couldn't read that far into it. It was too embarrassing.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 06 Oct 2011 11:50

Livefist has the pic. (originally from Indian Express)

Will · Post by **Will** » 06 Oct 2011 12:38

The Rafale has been a favourite of mine but I think the Eurofighter consurtium is more open to transfer of "real" technology. The French guard their tech fiercely and their "tranfer of tech" would involve more of "screwdriver" technology

. India should not loose this opportunity to get as much as they can out of this project. The govt diluting the offset requirements to include civilian space was a mistake.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 06 Oct 2011 17:47

About the Typhoon escort, the Austrian also escorted the first Vienna flight of the A380 a few weeks back.
And there was no president onboard!

From here :
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/co ... 00e0fb37d1

As for The ToT mentioned by Will, you should check the Brazilian FX-2 tender.
They were offered total ToT ( Except SPECTRA which is indeed fiercely guarded )
to the point of having sales right over the South American sub-continent???
India can and should obtain as much, IMHO.

Of course, there is no advantage in getting ToT in areas were one's industry is lacking too much.
If tech A can be learned and produced within 5-10 years and
tech B can be more or less used as a starting point for 20+ years down the road,
it may be more reasonable to get ToT over the former than the latter.
We would need more specific infos to judge on that?

Good day all, Tay.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 06 Oct 2011 19:00

PratikDas wrote:TOI: Eurofighters escort President in rare honour

The comment by Partha (brussels) under the article made me laugh to hell

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Oct 2011 19:07

shukla wrote:Delay likely in aircraft bidding process
Deccan Herald

Among the issues to be discussed at the DAC meeting scheduled for October 7, the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, price optimisation and offset proposals made will assume prominence. With the falling rupee, if the deal is executed this year, there could be a considerable cost escalation even at current prices.[/b]

As I said before, there will be sticker shock and awe when the bids are opened. It's a classic case of GoI delays impacting procurement costs. If they had done this when the INR was ~40=$ and locked it in,,,

Same stuff has been pulled on offshore oil exploration: do nothing while oil prices are high, wait till they fall and the invite foreign cos. Going on since 1970s.

IMHO, the MMRCA will never happen. The cost will be $20bn+ and somebody will get the bright idea to order SU30MKI++ stealth as a stopgap until FAK-PA/FGFA comes and then when that is delayed....we'll float another tender for MMRCA

At least it will provide fodder for endless discussions on BRF to while away Saturday afternoons.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 06 Oct 2011 19:19

^^^ Perhaps makes more sense.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2011 14:44

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Oct 2011 14:46

...Satuday afternoon whiling away time...! Well yes.We've certainly whiled away enormous amounts of our lifespan on the MRCA deal abd it looks like their will be many more weekends for the same purpose.

Nevertheless,change is constant,and if we just look back briefly,the scenario has changed enormouslywhen the MMRCA acquisition was first mooted.The biggest factor in the choice has been to my mind the dragon-fire that suddenly blew across the Himalyas our way when the Communist Chinese entity arogantly cklaimed Ar.Pr. as theirs.It shocked the peacenik MMS regime no end whcih had out its faith entirely on the Yanquis to save our skins from the pestilential Porkies.To suddenly see their joint machinations in all its "eviltude" had the effect of a spear up the nether end of the leadership quaking in their dhoties.They still quake wanting no news of PLA invasion of Indian territory and it was only until media channels forced the truth out revealing secret documents that the Army Chief has now confirmed the same,about 3-4000 PLA troops in POK.

This had the effect of sending the chances of the much admired Gripen back to base as a single-engined light fighter would be less capable in the high Hmalayas duelling with PRC Flankers,et al. With the FGA deal also signed with Russia to give the IAF a qualitative edge by 2020 against the Sino-Pak combine,the capable but less advanced MIG-35 was also declined.The two Yanqui birds were also gvien short shrift despite much touting and p*mping from various quarters,but their age and relevance 40 yearshence when they would still be expected to do duty and face off with vastly superior 4++ to 6th-gen fighters ealed their doom.Two crashlandings.

We now have the two Euro-survivors facing off while the Euro struggles to survive! True,whichever aircraft wins,it is a victory for a much beleaguered Europe desperate for military sales,but for a rapidly fading rupee,at what cost for India?The massive rise in infaltion,economic deflation,with for.ex. reserves declining,industrial production too,with the only success being rampant corruption at record levels ever,the state is very hard of cash.SBI's downrating has shaken the market and a govt. under seige at war with itself,cabinet ministers infighting,plus public outrage at petrol prices,increase in loan rates,the cost of living,etc.,there is going to be a huge demand from the Congress Party for a lot of freebies thrown to the masses for the purposes of winning elections,which will require budget cutting for the next few years beore poll time.Aaprtf rom political gestures,the demands of the other twos ervcies are also massive.The IN requires huge investments in new subs and warships,and the IA has a very long-standing priority-demand for artillery of various types while its financial requirements to raise new divisions to counter PRC aggro. is still awaiting approval!

Apart from the eco gloom ,the fact that the LCA will face further delays in commissioning of the first MK-1 sqd.,which itself is worryingly underperforming,the IAF will be in a fix if the prices for the MMRC when revealed (which the two Eurofighters would've worked out a base price between themselves !) are beyond budget.What will then happen? Will the order be reduced with "more of the same" (SU-30MKIs and Jaguars) be bought and built to offset the falling numbers? One seriously doubts that the contest will be reopened as the US would like,but the IAF should sit back and take a holistic view of the situ.

The IA needs a very firm committment on CAS,which can be crucial in any land spat with Pak or China.Longewala proved that fact in '65.Kargil reinforced this fact.The IA/IAF possess very few attack helos in comparison with other advanced military forces and the attrition rate of aircraft and helos involved in support of land forces is very high.Apart from high-performance fighters for air-dominance,the IAF also requires large numbers of ground-attack aircraft which are tough,versatile,able to return home even after being hit by ground fire,and deliver a variety of PGMs .Strangely,even nations like the US are re-examining turbo-props and other alternatives-using advanced trainers for the role instead of using high-performance expensive aircraft for the same.Have there been studies done on the cost-effectiveness of a Jaguar UG doing a "home-run" against that of a Rafale or EF delivering the same ordnance?

If the cost appears prohibitive,what might eventually happen is that the 120 aircraft will be the max. that we might eventually acquire and make up numbers with the above scenario until the FGFA and hopefully LCA MK-2 arrive.If one looks at other air forces worldwide,they are doing the same.The undue delays in the JSF's arrival is forcing Oz,Japan,SoKo to look at buying existing upgraded types in their service such as extra F-18SHs in the case of Oz,F-15 Super-Eagles for Japan, and the SoKos aaprt from the F-15SE is looking at even our two Eurocanard duellists,as they have budgeted in the extra cost of the JSF,around $120m+ apiece.

nits · Post by **nits** » 07 Oct 2011 15:56

Cosmo_R wrote:Among the issues to be discussed at the DAC meeting scheduled for October 7, the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, price optimisation and offset proposals made will assume prominence. With the falling rupee, if the deal is executed this year, there could be a considerable cost escalation even at current prices

Some how i does not find any logic in $ fluctuation... anyways we are not making whole payment now... It will be in parts and as and when we recieve Aircrafts. so if two year down the line - $ touches 60 what will they do ? - Stop taking further aircrafts...?

And when you plan for such a big deal; all such things are taken in consideration before hand and are part of Contract. These are not discussed at the last minute; its part of Risk Mangment and all such things are tightly studied and part of contract...

There is definately some other reason for delay... Again i may be wrong with whatever limited knowledge i have...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Oct 2011 16:28

the money for the deal will have been set aside and hedged against currency fluctuations
its not quite like going to the bank and exchanging travel money

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Oct 2011 16:39

Lalmohan wrote:the money for the deal will have been set aside and hedged against currency fluctuations
its not quite like going to the bank and exchanging travel money

How would they know what the amount to be hedged was if the L1 number is not known? The fallout from the sticker shock will be political based on current spot rates.

Even if they hedged (very unlikely), 3-4 years ago, they would not be able to accurately factor in the euro-based cost escalation over 5 years nor the INR based one.

JMT

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Oct 2011 17:02

i am sure they had a good idea of L1

also, if they hedged it the right way, they might be making a massive profit right now

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Oct 2011 17:49

The commercial bid has not yet been opened. Before that, they did not know who the down selected L1 was.

Checked around whether Govts typically hedge major arms purchases. No one I talked to thought it was common practice. Anyway, moot until they open the bids in 2 weeks.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Oct 2011 21:15

the GOI will probably be running large sterling, euro and dollar hedges for anticipated needs across all areas, MOD allocations will be within that somewhere

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Oct 2011 00:12

Philip wrote: Longewala proved that fact in '65. Kargil reinforced this fact.

Philip Saar, Longewala was in 1971, in 1965, IAF was not used much in CAS. Even in Kargil, IAF sorties were in bulk CAP and supply interdiction. CAS was limited to few LGB attacks with much of the explosives delivered by Tube Artillery and MBRLs.
A spell check would help in your post, it appears winding and confusing, unlike you regular posts.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Oct 2011 08:14

Panel clears offsets report on $10.4-bn jet plane deal

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Oct 2011 08:18

Combat aircraft for IAF:Stage set for bids

Indaruta · Post by **Indaruta** » 08 Oct 2011 10:15

If the Indian government has any sense they should wait for the euro to crash and burn and only then with heavy discounts or ask the brits to sod off

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 08 Oct 2011 10:44

Indaruta wrote:If the Indian government has any sense they should wait for the euro to crash and burn and only then with heavy discounts or ask the brits to sod off

And in your sense when is the euro crashing ? You aware of the specific date ? What if the euro goes the other way round ? What will be the impact on the MMRCA deal ? You will then come and say "If the Indian government has any sense should have made the deal earlier"

Buddy, its not so easy to make predictions on currency fluctuations, even the top financial analysts have made mistakes on that.... but it is relatively very easy to criticise.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Oct 2011 12:04

Indaruta wrote:If the Indian government has any sense they should wait for the euro to crash and burn and only then with heavy discounts or ask the brits to sod off

And we should not replace the Mig-21's and other aircraft that will be retiring in a few years time? right. This is not the Share market where you are looking to Time the Market.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Oct 2011 13:57

Shorry Shrini,posted when in my cups! Oui,Longewala was in '71 where our Hunters had a field day with the Paki Pattons.

The offset clauses (50%) are going to be fun.Some companies have allegedly tried to portray hotel expenses,etc.,as being "offsets".The GOI shot down a BAe-Mahindra JV not too long ago,and it is going to be the quality of the "offsets" on offer that to me will be a clinching factor.What relevant tech transfer that will help indigenisation best is what we need.If you ask me the two most important needs are engine tech-so that we can design,develop and build our own family of engines across the board,and AESA radars.UAV/UCAV tech and some types of ordnance/missiles come next.We are developing with Russia the FGFA "stealth" fighter,therefore one has not mentioned stealth,as from these two birds which are not genuine stealth aircraft,there is little to be picked from the bones.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Oct 2011 18:25

Biggest defence deal proposal okayed

The defence ministry on Friday approved the offset proposals for India’s biggest defence deal to buy 126 fighter planes at an estimate price of Rs 42,000 crore ($ 10.4 billion) paving the way for opening the commercial bids around Diwali.
:
:
According to Indian defence procurement norms, 30 per cent of all foreign military purchases worth more than Rs 300 crore are reinvested in Indian defence industry to spur growth in domestic military industry. For the MMRCA deal, the offset was fixed at 50 per cent, which sparked resentment among the competitors.
:
: