Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Oct 2011 16:36

Sathish_A wrote:Vermins latest location and stint...As stated he moves on to sustain his career and ever heard of Chameleon

http://acdis.illinois.edu/aboutacdis/pr ... ml&pid=299

Quite frankly he is irrelevant and we probably don't need any posts about him.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Oct 2011 19:04

vasu_ray wrote:Couple of years back, DRDO complained that the US refused import of materials needed for the scram jet engine forcing it as usual to the local development route

They also said that they achieved a 20s scram jet performance, and were planning to repeat it for another 20s as well as establishing high mach wind tunnels for such purposes, five or six more tests and they will be ready for flight testing

Now with the Shaurya sustaining hypersonic speeds even at lower altitudes, did they develop the needed materials or the intakes and internals of the scram jet engine experience even higher temperatures than a aerodynamic and rolling missile body like Shaurya?

they could attach the scram jet engine to the Shaurya and flight test it without ever releasing it from the missile body and collect it by a parachute at the end of a flight, (the US has lost so many prototypes flying them alone) once they achieve stable flights they can have the scram jet fly on its own

Requirements of Shourya and Avatar like *reusable* hypersonic space vehicle varies. Anyway, a lot of things are happening quite fast to pinpoint. To illustrate, lets see this.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1177886

On Agni-3 3rd test held in 2008:

A special system, called ring-laser gyro-based inertial navigation system, was flown on board for higher accuracy of the flight. The circular error probable was in single digit, indicating the high accuracy of the system, Mr. Chander said.
On Agni-3 4th test held in 2010:

An elated V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, called it “a fantastic launch and a hat-trick.”
“The flight gave us the full range and pin-point accuracy. The missile travelled accurately its entire range to its last decimal place as we had planned. ”

If you observe, 4th test flight is described as one achieving pinpoint accuracy whereas such terms was not used for the 3rd test even though it reached its target in copybook manner.

DRDO press release of 3rd Agni test says, "It was a text book launch and followed the trajectory with single digit guidance accuracy. All the subsystems of the missile functioned in a copybook manner giving an outstanding integrated performance of the missile in terms of range and accuracy". For the first time Ring Laser Gyro was used in the 3rd test flight. And Shourya too tested in that year used RLG.

But the DRDO Press Release for 4th test says, The missile is equipped with a state of the art computer system, navigated with a most advanced Navigation system and guided with an innovative guidance scheme. The Navigation system used for guidance is first of its kind.

If it is the same Navigation system as used in Agni 3rd test, can the use of such system in the 4th test be described as "first of its kind"? While the press release of 3rd flight contains details of the system used, 4th one is silent about the system used. To appreciate the fact, Trident D5 got upgraded from electro mechanical gyros to Ring Laser gyros only from 2002( 01? ) onwards.

So there is lot of things happening and drawing conclusion without any official word/data is as good as goose chase.

------------------------------------------------

dinesha wrote:Agni V test depends on prime success
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agni-v-test- ... 0-117.html
BALASORE: The failed mission of December 2010 in mind, scientists pin much hope on the success of test-flight of Agni-II Prime, expected to be conducted on November 10. A smooth test would mean first trial of India’s most powerful and longest range Agni-V missile, scheduled in December.

The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to test-fire the surface-to-surface nuclear-capable Agni-II Prime from the Wheelers Island near Dhamra. Spade-work for the indigenously built intermediate range ballistic missile has started. The project team from Hyderabad will arrive on October 28 to oversee the final preparations. Usually, a missile is tested after the mission team gets the nod from the Launch Authorisation Board (LAB) of the DRDO and the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). An official said if the scientists get green signal from the board and the CCS as per the programme, the missile will definitely blast off on the scheduled date.

“Agni-V, capable of hitting targets at a distance of 5,000 km, would derive most of its sub-systems from Agni-II Prime though they would need sufficient scaling. Besides, there is a plan to develop Agni-IV as an intermediate step between Agni-III and Agni-V,” said a defence scientist. The maiden test of Agni-II Prime was a failure with the missile deviating from the trajectory soon after takeoff. Instead of attaining the desired altitude, the missile plunged down just after a flight of 30 seconds as no stage separation occurred midway.

Sources said this project was handled by a bunch of young scientists and this time they will leave no stone unturned to make the mission a success. Or else, it will be difficult for the DRDO to get the green signal for Agni-V.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1156181

If I have to test something new, I will test it first in already tried and tested missile like Agni-II before testing that in new & complex missile like Agni-II Prime. With two tests and enough time to validate and fine tune the new system, I can confidently go ahead with the testing of prestigious and ultimate Agni-V missile.

So what are these sub systems that are not in Agni-3 that needs to be tested in Agni-2P before testing that in Agni-V ?

It is already reported( a year back?) that work has begun on new missile which is/was identified by the name Agni-3A.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Oct 2011 19:27

Singha wrote:
sounds like he was a techie who decided on the easier route of being a analyst and think tanker

But ended up being an anal stinker maybe?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Oct 2011 20:09

@vasu_ray, for your inference.

On the little-known high supersonic long-range cruise missile (LRCM - image above) revealed first here on Livefist, Dr Saraswat said a first flight of India's scramjet-powered hypersonic test demonstration platform would be tested at an altitude of 30-km and speed of 7 Mach early next year.

[next year = 2012]

The Speed Shourya achieved in 2008 test is Mach 5, whereas in the latest test the speed is greater than Mach 7.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Oct 2011 21:01

Sources said this project was handled by a bunch of young scientists and this time they will leave no stone unturned to make the mission a success. Or else, it will be difficult for the DRDO to get the green signal for Agni-V.

interesting to note about the bunch, and applying pressure on the young bunch here..

prime example. I expect the seniors to monitor as this mission is red marked.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Oct 2011 22:01

Singha wrote:http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/bharat_gopalswamy.htm

sounds like he was a techie who decided on the easier route of being a analyst and think tanker, and think deep thoughts rather than get anything done.

> He is also a visiting reseacher at the South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, London.

has the odor of a HMG+paki funded dept. staff is 90% paki including a ex-PA brigadier.
http://www.sassu.org.uk/html/staff.htm

OT but SASSU *is* an ISI front. Correct me if I am wrong but was'nt that wimmens Maria Sultan honey trapping the diplomutt from Bartania few years ago?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Oct 2011 22:18

Singha wrote: > He is also a visiting reseacher at the South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, London.

Its interesting how think tanks have names like the threads in the BRF Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum. If BRF had enough money, we can spin off think tanks like "Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent", "BENIS think tank", "Red Menace think tank" etc.

SASSU looks more like a septic tank

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Oct 2011 22:30

Most of us are not self-aware, but we are like a Think Tank indeed.

shijo · Post by **shijo** » 19 Oct 2011 23:03

SASSU looks more like a septic tank

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 20 Oct 2011 02:15

Kanson wrote:@vasu_ray, for your inference.

On the little-known high supersonic long-range cruise missile (LRCM - image above) revealed first here on Livefist, Dr Saraswat said a first flight of India's scramjet-powered hypersonic test demonstration platform would be tested at an altitude of 30-km and speed of 7 Mach early next year.
[next year = 2012]

The Speed Shourya achieved in 2008 test is Mach 5, whereas in the latest test the speed is greater than Mach 7.

Thanks Kanson, DRDO's official statements are sort of cryptic to the casual reader

thought HSTDV (Avatar is one of the end products) was the precursor to all such efforts by DRDO, good to know that the LRCM is the test bed and the timeline is close by, guess the article also mentioned that structurally the side intakes and the main body are built one piece with no joints

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 20 Oct 2011 02:22

with all the accuracy improvements pointing to conventional role, are they considering a Ship launched version of Shaurya?

For the C-130 based Shaurya launch, they could have a setup similar to the in flight re-arming concept, the longish pylon slides out supported by a inverted V shaped wing at its outer end, when the missile under the pylon clears the transports extended ramp, it is dropped and a sec later the missile ignites

this applies to any cruise missile below the weight and length parameters of the Shaurya. Within the transport hold, these cruise missiles will be placed on a rotary which transfers them to the pylon, one at a time, the pylon then slides out as described above, there are two grooves on which the cargo pallets are pushed out, two pylons can slide out, one on each such groove

the pylon for air launched Brahmos is huge, one can only image what it would look like for Shaurya

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2011 02:36

Ship launched versions sounds interesting.. But, it should be shourya++ then having 5km range.. 'cause we need to keep these dedicated ships from really far away from chinese Sukhois range.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 20 Oct 2011 05:38

edited

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2011 05:42

Whoops - apologies. I thought I was in the Paki thread.

Post deleted.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2011 05:44

Folks can we stick to topic please.
Thanks, ramana

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 20 Oct 2011 07:06

SaiK wrote:Ship launched versions sounds interesting.. But, it should be shourya++ then having 5km range.. 'cause we need to keep these dedicated ships from really far away from chinese Sukhois range.

Shaurya canisters aren't too large compared to Brahmos that would need dedicated ships.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Oct 2011 08:32

Kanson wrote:The Speed Shourya achieved in 2008 test is Mach 5, whereas in the latest test the speed is greater than Mach 7.

The average speed of Shurya seems to be Mach 4.2 , since it covered 700 km in 500 sec in latest test

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 482010.ece

The missile rose on the dot at 2.30 p.m. from a canister strapped on to the ground, climbed to an altitude of 40 km and sped at 7.5 Mach, that is, 7.5 times the speed of sound. It covered its full range of 700 km in 500 seconds.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2011 08:43

Austin, Missiles dont have average speed. Its the terminal velocity that matters. And even the Mach number doesnt matter. What matters is the final velocity in m/sec or ft/sec. Mach number varies with altitude.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Oct 2011 11:44

ramana wrote:Austin, Missiles dont have average speed. Its the terminal velocity that matters. And even the Mach number doesnt matter. What matters is the final velocity in m/sec or ft/sec. Mach number varies with altitude.

Ramana what you say is correct , I was only quoting TSS on the last flight that took place at 40 km and flew for a total of 500 sec.

Its true the speed will vary with altitude and in the end the terminal speed matters from target perspective.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 20 Oct 2011 13:59

vasu_ray wrote:The average speed of Shurya seems to be Mach 4.2 , since it covered 700 km in 500 sec in latest test

But this 700kms is the range over land, it does not indicate the actual distance covered by the missile. The missile's trajectory would mean that it actually travels a distance > 700kms to cover the 700kms over land.
Thus the actual speed of the missile should be higher.

On a side note, if we assume that the missile flew along the sides of a rectangle of dimensions 700 x 40 (an extreme case of the parabola) the average mach number would come to around 4.7.

koti · Post by **koti** » 20 Oct 2011 14:14

Austin wrote:
ramana wrote:Austin, Missiles dont have average speed. Its the terminal velocity that matters. And even the Mach number doesnt matter. What matters is the final velocity in m/sec or ft/sec. Mach number varies with altitude.
Ramana what you say is correct , I was only quoting TSS on the last flight that took place at 40 km and flew for a total of 500 sec.

Its true the speed will vary with altitude and in the end the terminal speed matters from target perspective.

Not completely true IMO sir.
If that was the case, Shaurya would have had a normal ballistic path which would have given it greater terminal velocity.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Oct 2011 15:21

Precisely why I've been advocating the need for a new class of heavy cruisers of around 12,000t+,which will have a variety of extended long range weapon systems in all diimensions,surface/sea,sub-surface and air.Shourya fitted aboard such a warship would give the IN terrific punch as the LR cruise missile-our Tomahawk,Nirbhay, is also under development.This would give the IN the capability to attack (at hyper-speed) for example, a PLAN carrier task force outside the range of its carrier strike aircraft.The vessel could conduct missile strikes against land taregts .

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Oct 2011 16:36

Precisely why I've been advocating the need for a new class of heavy cruisers of around 12,000t+,

Sigh

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Oct 2011 16:41

vasu_ray wrote:Thanks Kanson, DRDO's official statements are sort of cryptic to the casual reader

thought HSTDV (Avatar is one of the end products) was the precursor to all such efforts by DRDO, good to know that the LRCM is the test bed and the timeline is close by, guess the article also mentioned that structurally the side intakes and the main body are built one piece with no joints

One more clue on the progress made in Hypersonic missile. From 2008 Shourya test. It is obvious that he is referring countries like US which are testing Scram-jets.

Chakrabarti added: “Hypersonic missile is a new field of activity even in advanced countries. However, we have established our expertise in this field.”

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Oct 2011 16:49

vasu_ray wrote:with all the accuracy improvements pointing to conventional role, are they considering a Ship launched version of Shaurya?

We believe in duality,don't we? Much before we came to know about the duality of Light, we practised Advaita.

We practised duality in Brahmos by converting an AShCM into LACM. We converted ABM AAD into Prahaar, Prithvi to PAD, Prithvi to Dhanush and Dhanush to ....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Oct 2011 17:05

Austin wrote:
Kanson wrote:The Speed Shourya achieved in 2008 test is Mach 5, whereas in the latest test the speed is greater than Mach 7.
The average speed of Shurya seems to be Mach 4.2 , since it covered 700 km in 500 sec in latest test

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 482010.ece
The missile rose on the dot at 2.30 p.m. from a canister strapped on to the ground, climbed to an altitude of 40 km and sped at 7.5 Mach, that is, 7.5 times the speed of sound. It covered its full range of 700 km in 500 seconds.

That is perplexing isn't it.

Agni-3 covered its full range in 800 secs - it is reported.

Agni-2 required 660 secs to reach its full range.

A 800 km range BM on its standard trajectory requires less that 500 secs

For a 700 km range BM it requires around 400 secs if it is Standard minimum energy trajectory as it reaches an altitude between 150 - 200 km and its re-entry speed is aroud 7.5 Mach.

But Shourya reaches 7.5 Mach travels at 40 km altitude covers 700 km range but takes 500 secs.

Is it possible to compare with flight time of Iskander M as it also reaches speed similar to Shourya ? What is the flight time of Iskander ? Any inference can be made ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2011 17:07

technologically do the new gen of hypersonics and scramjets need to be always in the big class (6m-10m) or there is a way to make them small (in the 1ton category)?

I am thinking of a small, relatively cheaper hypersonic conventional attack missile with a light 50-100kg warhead as a alternative to AASM type weapons in the hard-target attack role....suitable for carriage by all fighters not just specially modified MKIs. or is it really not needed and a modified KH31 airframe with a better seeker and warhead will get it done?

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Oct 2011 17:10

technologically do the new gen of hypersonics and scramjets need to be always in the big class (6m-10m) or there is a way to make them small (in the 1ton category)?

There is no escaping that fact that a certain amount (given) of energy is needed to drive a projectile at hypersonic velocities and that is exponentially higher than subsonic. There you go. The only thing that can be reduced is the size of the ordnance, since a hyper sonic missile will be carrying a lot of kinetic energy.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2011 18:44

deleted.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2011 19:27

Saik, not here.

kanson when the next flgith occurs might be good idea to list the firsts on the flight.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Oct 2011 20:43

Philip wrote:Precisely why I've been advocating the need for a new class of heavy cruisers of around 12,000t+,

We have 6000 tonne nuclear submarines that save 6000 tonnes of steel and are inherently stealthy because of their operating environment

Kanson wrote:We believe in duality,don't we? Much before we came to know about the duality of Light, we practised Advaita. We practised duality in Brahmos by converting an AShCM into LACM. We converted ABM AAD into Prahaar, Prithvi to PAD, Prithvi to Dhanush and Dhanush to ....

The ability to reuse is the best feature of our program. Even the US is now thinking of equipping newer Virginia with dual role BM/CM tubes, but we thought of it earlier.

Velocity is also a function of the trajectory chosen. Meaningless discussing average speed. A pure ballistic trajectory is more energy efficient than a shaped trajectory. Something lobbed at 45 deg with baseline energy will reach faster than something lobbed at 22.5 deg, that will consume more energy it it has to cover the same distance.

If 10 boys in class are 5 ft tall and 10 boys 6 ft tall, we cannot average height to 5.5 ft because none of the boys are 5.5 ft tall.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Oct 2011 20:53

RamaY wrote:Most of us are not self-aware, but we are like a Think Tank indeed.

In many respects we are a very sensible, knowledgeble and impartial (partial to India of course) Think Tank.

K

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Oct 2011 10:14

Austin wrote:
Kanson wrote:The Speed Shourya achieved in 2008 test is Mach 5, whereas in the latest test the speed is greater than Mach 7.
The average speed of Shurya seems to be Mach 4.2 , since it covered 700 km in 500 sec in latest test

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 482010.ece
The missile rose on the dot at 2.30 p.m. from a canister strapped on to the ground, climbed to an altitude of 40 km and sped at 7.5 Mach, that is, 7.5 times the speed of sound. It covered its full range of 700 km in 500 seconds.

Austin gaaru, 7.5 mach would have been the steady velocity / peak velocity sustained during the hypersonic phase, 4.2 or 4.7 will be average speed. My 2 paise.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Oct 2011 11:27

Shrinivasan wrote:Austin gaaru, 7.5 mach would have been the steady velocity / peak velocity sustained during the hypersonic phase, 4.2 or 4.7 will be average speed. My 2 paise.

That was what I have been trying to say Sir

I dont have definitive insight into how do these missile manage their energy in different phases of flight but if i were to guess it for Shurya , the first phase would be the most energetic phase where the missile is lifted at very high speed reaching at hypersonic speed in a very short time burst and one can easily see from the videos of Shaurya the sheer energy with which the first stage lifts the missile.

Once the missile reaches a cruise altitude then the first stage motor cuts off and the missile cruises at sustained high supersonic speed via a slow burning 2nd stage rocket motor and when it reaches the terminal phase it probably achieves hypersonic speed and is aided by gravity and weight of the missile while it makes a powered flight to its target at hypersonic speed.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Oct 2011 19:48

tsarkar wrote: Velocity is also a function of the trajectory chosen. Meaningless discussing average speed. A pure ballistic trajectory is more energy efficient than a shaped trajectory. Something lobbed at 45 deg with baseline energy will reach faster than something lobbed at 22.5 deg, that will consume more energy it it has to cover the same distance.

Not so clear ... flat trajectory would use wings and generate lift from the air. A ballistic trajectory would need a lot of energy to reach that greater height.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 22 Oct 2011 13:09

Agni-5 test postponed
Agni-5 demo in February 2012: DRDO chief
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agni5-demo-i ... 0-115.html

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Oct 2011 16:34

Just a small note, SAMs and AAMs may have max speed of Mach 3 to 6 but normal average speed is around Mach 1.5. While the BMs have average speed of Mach 5 to 10-20. Which means normally it is very diffcult for SAM to intercept a crossing BM

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Oct 2011 20:32

dinesha wrote:Agni-5 test postponed
Agni-5 demo in February 2012: DRDO chief
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agni5-demo-i ... 0-115.html

Wonder why this gentlemen made the announcement!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Oct 2011 20:46

Its good thing. From earlier IBN story A-V has many sub-systems based on A-II+ or prime. It takes at least a month or two to analyze the telemetry even if all is well. So Feb gives enough time for any contingency.
Also Feb is the beginning of launch window per WOF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Oct 2011 00:27

All this discussion about accuracy etc should benefit from this.

This was previously posted elsewhere, but since DRDO has seen it fit to host it on their site, I think the time has come to note the user acceptance of the remarkable performance of India's Ballistic Missiles.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dpi/art ... t_2011.pdf

"India's Guided Missile Development Program" - Maj Gen PK Chakravorty (former ADG Artillery)

Akash, M2.5, 30 KM (note range, speed) - just as a reference.

Prithvi-1, 1T, 150 Km, 30-50m CEP, 1990
P-2, 250 Km, 500 Kg, 15 m CEP, says despite high payload of 500kg -1T range was enhanced to 350 Km by 2004
A-1, 700-800 km, 1T, 25m CEP
A-2, 2000-3000Km, 1T, 30m CEP
A-3, article snipped as scan is missing

You may note DRDO announced Prahar has a "terminal accuracy" of 10 m. Basically 10 M CEP.