Indian Army Cheetah Chopper enters Pakistan airspace

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 15:43

New Delhi: An Indian Army helicopter with four personnel on board entered into the Pakistani airspace today, reportedly due to bad weather.

The Cheetah helicopter was escorted down by Pakistani forces and the four Indian soldiers onboard have been taken into custody.

The airspace violation happened over the Kargil sector in Jammu and Kashmir along the Line of Control. The Army, meanwhile, has said that the chopper's landing in Pakistan was not a deliberate intrusion.

Source: NDTV

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 15:46

from my own sources:
The incident happened at about 1300 HRS IST
The chopper is in Skardu, Pakistan now

Added later:
The weather is absolutely fine in Kargil, just a little breaze and chilly but its fine.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 23 Oct 2011 15:48

Four Indian Army officers held in PoK | Pakistan says Indian chopper had violated airspace | India says chopper was forced to land due to bad weather: Reports

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2011 15:50

Well this could be a navigation error coupled with bad weather. I am sure the Pakies will tom tom the incident and claim that it was forced landed by the vigilant defenders. I am concerned about the safety of the Indians on board the machine though.

Having said that IB4TL.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 15:50

Can this type of human error happen if we have AEW&CS?

partha · Post by **partha** » 23 Oct 2011 15:52

Pratyush wrote:Well this could be a navigation error coupled with bad weather. I am sure the Pakies will tom tom the incident and claim that it was forced landed by the vigilant defenders. I am concerned about the safety of the Indians on board the machine though.

Having said that IB4TL.

Wait. Not so fast. Pakis will milk this incident. I think this thread should be open at least till we get some clear responses from the Paki side.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 15:54

^^^how does having an AWACS help in bad weather?

Having said that, let us keep the threat. Otherwise, the IA and Military Aviation thread will get swamped by news related to this as well as one line posts about the incidents - with the associated let us do this and that nonsense. The thread can be closed once the incidence reaches a closure and archived for future references.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 15:59

rohitvats wrote:^^^how does having an AWACS help in bad weather?

Having said that, let us keep the threat. Otherwise, the IA and Military Aviation thread will get swamped by news related to this as well as one line posts about the incidents - with the associated let us do this and that nonsense. The thread can be closed once the incidence reaches a closure and archived for future references.

My friend,
AEW&CS can track not just aircraft. It can track any inclement weather approaching also. Besides, there is no inclement weather either in Kargil or Skardu. There is no wind or heavy snow. There is just some rain and the visibility is 10 KM. That is good enough for helicopter travel.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 23 Oct 2011 16:29

4 IA officers including 1 Colonel, 2 Majors and 1 JCO have been detained by TSPA in the chopper force-landing incident.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 16:30

The chopper belongs to "666 Siachen Falcons Squadron" and was on a maintenance mission from Leh to Bhimbhat . It had 2 pilots(Major,Colonel),1 JCO and 1 Engineer(Major).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 16:36

Altair wrote: My friend, AEW&CS can track not just aircraft. It can track any inclement weather approaching also. Besides, there is no inclement weather either in Kargil or Skardu. There is no wind or heavy snow. There is just some rain and the visibility is 10 KM. That is good enough for helicopter travel.

You make it seem that there was some freak weather phenomenon which led to this situation - which needed to big enough to show up on the terminals of AWACS. And this is Himalayas we're taking about - where the weather can change in a matter of minutes. The weather in one valley can vary drastically from the next. There are so many localized phenomenon that no about computer power can second guess these. As for your comment on 10kms of visibility and clear weather - at what altitutes, may I ask? To me, it seems like met readout for airlines. Will it be applicable for helicopter flying? For example, the valley floor in the region is between 2,800 -3,000 meters i.e ~9,000 - 10,000 feet and peaks and rigdes at 12,000 - 15,000 feet. Now, as per the reports, the chopper was carrying 4 personnel. Considering a per person load of ~80kgs, how high do you think a Cheetah with 320kg load go in this region?

Read this small but interesting page on mountain flying:
http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/news/ ... flight.pdf

As per one pakistan news report, the chopper landed in Olthinthang. The same is opposite Kargil along the Suru river. Please see the map here (this is terrain map - shows the elevation in the region):

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.7228495&lo ... 13&l=0&m=t

If you observe the map, Olthinthang is pretty close to LoC.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 16:43

We do not even know if it is a modified "Cheetal". If its a modified one it has much higher lifting capability. DDM might not know difference between Cheeta and Cheetal,the one with TM 333-2M2 engine. Landing at 25,000 feet is achievable for our folks

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 23 Oct 2011 16:52

First the incident on LoC when some of our Jawans were beheaded

Then the Godavari-Babur incident

Now this.

Knoiwing Pakis, will not be surprised to know if these all are somehow connected. Pakis will milk this for all its worth, like they did with the previous incident.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Oct 2011 17:04

why is this opened in strat forum ? going to move.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 17:12

Altair wrote:We do not even know if it is a modified "Cheetal". If its a modified one it has much higher lifting capability. DDM might not know difference between Cheeta and Cheetal,the one with TM 333-2M2 engine. Landing at 25,000 feet is achievable for our folks

Altair, you're not making any sense. What does landing at 25,000 feet mean? Touching down at Saser Kangri peak and taking off to make world record has no context to the case in hand. Setting records under tight operational conditions (except for weather) and normal helicopter operations is not same. Being barely able to hover for couple of minutes at max with fingers crossed and prayer on your lips is not same as operating comfortably with enough margin to cater for exigencies. At those heights, apart from the crew+fuel, the choppers can manage to carry less than 100kgs of payloads. The report clearly says that it had four men on board. With four men, it was not going any where that high.

Read this from Broadsword:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... eater.html

Very quickly, the Dhruv demonstrated its superiority over the military’s tiny, single-engine Cheetah helicopters, which can barely lift 20 kilos of payload to Sonam. Touching down on a tiny H-shape formed on the snow with perforated iron sheets, the Dhruv’s pilots signalled to one of the soldiers on Sonam to climb aboard

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Oct 2011 17:30

As per CNN IBN the chopper has been released and has taken off for India

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 17:47

^^^Chopper to be detained; crew on their way back.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 23 Oct 2011 17:57

The Army chopper that strayed into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and was forced to land by Pakistani military, has been released and has returned to India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 464464.cms

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Oct 2011 18:04

rohitvats wrote:^^^Chopper to be detained; crew on their way back.

Chopper also returned.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 23 Oct 2011 18:13

handled pretty well by both sides. will be a plus for relations.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Oct 2011 19:36

I am an optimist but this is very strange indeed. Weather is definitely not the issue. There is good weather all the way from Leh to Skardu @ 1200 to 1400 IST today. May be we would never know what actually happened.
IB4TL indeed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2011 19:51

The reports of the release of the aircraft along with the crew, if accurate, is a rare display of mature behavior on part of the TSP army.

I am greatly relieved that this incident was not allowed to snowball into a major clash.

Having said that IB4TL.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Oct 2011 20:00

Pratyush wrote:The reports of the release of the aircraft along with the crew, if accurate, is a rare display of mature behavior on part of the TSP army.

I am greatly relieved that this incident was not allowed to snowball into a major clash.

Having said that IB4TL.

Mature behavior. Come on guys. Uski phati hui hai and hence all sorts of maturity will be displayed.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 23 Oct 2011 20:02

Just out of curiosity, in an event like this what are the rules of conduct and what is supposed to take place ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2011 20:03

^^^

I know, but why put an ungli up there musharraffs. Let them have the certificate of good behavior from us. A sort of Taquyia in reverse.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Oct 2011 20:05

After a lot of hardwork Pakis got Indian talking to them. They have zero persons who are even willing to talk to them. If they did some nautanki on this even MMS cannot help them. There is no option other than being "mature"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Oct 2011 21:18

maybe the chopper landed inside Pak but in a inaccessible area with no PA presence. after radio calls, the PA probably just decided to let it go and not go through the slog of seizing the heli, handing over the crew to Red Cross after a week etc.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Oct 2011 21:23

Yeah but they returned our men without harm and that too without delay. Thank you Pakistan. Appreciate that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2011 21:31

Singha wrote:maybe the chopper landed inside Pak but in a inaccessible area with no PA presence. after radio calls, the PA probably just decided to let it go and not go through the slog of seizing the heli, handing over the crew to Red Cross after a week etc.

It seems the helicopter was searched and scrutinized by the PA/PAF personnel on landing and IA team was in PA custody. IMO, the calls went upto Kiyani and it seems, GHQ did not see any merit in blowing-up this case. There was no chivalry but some cold calculations. But shows how fast things can move if PA so desires. I mean, no Wagah hand-over or parading infront of the media or other such shenanighans.

But let us give the devil its due...this must be record of sorts for shortest time frame for resolution of a flashpoint. Just imagine, from India-NA-India in matter of hours.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 23 Oct 2011 22:20

I think the pakis have learnt from the raymond davis affair...in the end they have to let them go...
Its worrying that pakis are behaving, things must be bad in pakhanastan.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 23 Oct 2011 22:21

Great that our chaps and the helicopter have been returned. The speed at which the matter was resolved is indeed astonishing.

I have a theory for why Kiya-nahin did this.

With all the jhappads he has been getting from the Yanquis and the damage to H&D by the OBL raid, I can imagine his astonishment when SM Krishna called for peese between America and the Pakis.

It was so friendly like! Not what Kiya-nahin has been indoctrinated as to what kaffirs and SDREs do. That it confused him and elated him so much that in the confused state of mind all turned out well.

We must give credit to SMK. Not only did SMK confuse Kiya-nahin and some of us, but I think confused himself too.

Equivalent to Mr. Bean in the Foreign Office!

saip · Post by **saip** » 23 Oct 2011 23:44

Nothing new but Nation being one of the most anti-indian paki papers that there is I am surprised that this escaped their editors. Also, Skardu is 50 miles inside pakistan.

Indian chopper forced to land after violating Pak airspace

Later, however, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas said that the helicopter was forced to land near Skardu, a city in northeastern Pakistan fairly close to the border with India-administered Kashmir.

Nutty Nation

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Oct 2011 23:54

That's one way to carry out a recce mission all the way to Skardu and back

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Oct 2011 23:55

Btw there was this documentary on Siachen where it was reported that this was normal and both sides after some debriefing and tea would let the craft fly back. Hope the bleeding hearts dont make this a case of great Paki munificence and bring up the next episode of Aman ki tamasha

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 24 Oct 2011 00:08

The pilot should have been careful, cause such cases might lead to diplomatic problem. But why create a new thread for this post. It should have gone to Indian Military Aviation Thread.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Oct 2011 00:15

suryag wrote:Btw there was this documentary on Siachen where it was reported that this was normal and both sides after some debriefing and tea would let the craft fly back. Hope the bleeding hearts dont make this a case of great Paki munificence and bring up the next episode of Aman ki tamasha

An Mi17 was shot down in Siachen using Stingers in the 80's/early 90's and I believe the bodies were never returned. With US massing troops on the Afghan border, they dont have the bandwidth to defend themselves if things went wrong in this area.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 24 Oct 2011 00:56

Dilbu wrote:Yeah but they returned our men without harm and that too without delay. Thank you Pakistan. Appreciate that.

...Diwali..is..on...26th..hold..your..horses..till..u..thank..the..Pichakara..nayis

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2011 02:43

There should be self destruct sequence from press of a remote button satellite linked..

Must send a small black team to get them home.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Oct 2011 04:17

No 10%?

They did not even think 10 times?

Pakis10 is improving?

What did RAW put in their water?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 24 Oct 2011 05:11

SaiK wrote:There should be self destruct sequence from press of a remote button satellite linked..

Must send a small black team to get them home.

too much of hollywood flicks..