Indian Army Cheetah Chopper enters Pakistan airspace

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Oct 2011 05:28

SaiK wrote:There should be self destruct sequence from press of a remote button satellite linked..

Must send a small black team to get them home.

Better yet, the small black team gets home with the helo. Without any further assistance.

As it happened.

"This is a test."

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 24 Oct 2011 05:48

tsarkar wrote:
suryag wrote:Btw there was this documentary on Siachen where it was reported that this was normal and both sides after some debriefing and tea would let the craft fly back. Hope the bleeding hearts dont make this a case of great Paki munificence and bring up the next episode of Aman ki tamasha
An Mi17 was shot down in Siachen using Stingers in the 80's/early 90's and I believe the bodies were never returned. With US massing troops on the Afghan border, they dont have the bandwidth to defend themselves if things went wrong in this area.

This is exactly my thoughts, you beat me to it. Yes, with the Americans PO'ed at them, the Pukis realized that they couldn't afford to pick a fight with India. If it had come to confrontation with India, the Pukis probably realized that the Americans will no longer restrain India. It used to be that in a fight with India the only card that the Pukis think they had was to threaten nuke response, but the Americans and the world has seen through that bluff these days and the Pukis don't want to risk a nuke war any more because Pukistan is on the verge and any confrontation with India just might push it over the edge. But it is good that they have released the Indian crew and chopper without much fanfare or chest thumping, but even if they had, even the Puki population would not believe them after their humiliation of OBL capture, their navy base attacked by Taliban, the daily U.S. drone strikes and thereby inability of the Puki army to defend their sovereignty.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 24 Oct 2011 08:15

SaiK wrote:There should be self destruct sequence from press of a remote button satellite linked..

Must send a small black team to get them home.

so every aircraft will carry an inert explosive on board and then some intelligent folk hacks into the secured network and issues a command of self-destruction to the entire asset ...

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Oct 2011 08:42

^^Reports in today's paper say that TSPA let the persons go only after thorough check of the chopper to check for surveillance equipment and only after confirming that none of the 4 crew were from MI/Army intel.

Good that we didnt have any indigenous recce stuff in there or it wasnt a Dhruv else Pakis would definitely have taken a few things with them for closer look ( with Chinese help, of course)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 09:49

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Oct 2011 09:52

^^ Interesting that one SF guy tried to get 2 pilots back across from the other side!! Wonder how he would have managed that!?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 09:55

^^^How do you know it was one SF guy?

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Oct 2011 10:06

^^ Going purely by what was reported in the article you had pasted ( one paratrooper rushed across the LoC and returned before firing started)...

No chaiwallahs on this one to refute what the paper says.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2011 10:07

prithvi wrote:
SaiK wrote:There should be self destruct sequence from press of a remote button satellite linked..

Must send a small black team to get them home.
so every aircraft will carry an inert explosive on board and then some intelligent folk hacks into the secured network and issues a command of self-destruction to the entire asset ...

Have you tried breaking into some normal encryption algorithms? what is the success rate? Are they kept at the same risk level or it has a short lived time before fix?

What is your experience in hacking? Again why do you think of explosion for "destruction"? jee hard eh? I would leave your "entire asset" as is for reuse.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Oct 2011 14:43

Pakistan scrambled jet to intercept Indian chopper

I think pilot did the sensible thing and remained calm and didn't panick and landed after been warned by paki fighter pilots , if they had tried fleeing we might have been talking abt revenge rather then thanking them

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Oct 2011 14:57

karan_mc wrote:Pakistan scrambled jet to intercept Indian chopper

I think pilot did the sensible thing and remained calm and didn't panick and landed after been warned by paki fighter pilots , if they had tried fleeing we might have been talking abt revenge rather then thanking them

Personally, I think this is more about H&D than anything else. No such reports came yesterday, a slow flying helicopter can be warned only by radio or by anther helicopter, a fighter aircraft is way to fast to detect what an helicopter is upto, all he can do is fire his missiles.

Waiting for a day or two when the IA discloses what actually happened.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 15:53

All this talk about radars picking up the heptr. and fighters being scrambled is poppycock for the consumption of abduls.

This the map of the area:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.6958966&lo ... 11&l=0&m=t

Olding is at the base of the location with marking as Olthingthang. Kargil is opposite it. The chopper drifted across the LOC in bad weather. In all probability, the pilots were flying along one of the valley and due to bad weather (white out due to snow), they might have gone above the ridges to get their bearings and dring this process, went across the ridges. Even if the pakis had light radars on mountain tops, the chopper would have shown up as a blip only when it went above the ridges. And as one can make out from the map, Olding represents the only safe place to land in the general area. So, the Indian heptr was above the ridges for a very short duration when it was trying to get out of bad weather and when it tried to look for safe place to land. If the pakis managed to 'track' a teeny-weeny Cheetah in those terrains and get the fighters airborne - well, I have a white domed building in agra to sell to you. Most likely, the forward posts of PA picked up the chopper as it drifted across and relayed the news back.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 16:02

rohitvats wrote:All this talk about radars picking up the heptr. and fighters being scrambled is poppycock for the consumption of abduls.

This the map of the area:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.6958966&lo ... 11&l=0&m=t

Olding is at the base of the location with marking as Olthingthang. Kargil is opposite it. The chopper drifted across the LOC in bad weather. In all probability, the pilots were flying along one of the valley and due to bad weather (white out due to snow), they might have gone above the ridges to get their bearings and dring this process, went across the ridges. Even if the pakis had light radars on mountain tops, the chopper would have shown up as a blip only when it went above the ridges. And as one can make out from the map, Olding represents the only safe place to land in the general area. So, the Indian heptr was above the ridges for a very short duration when it was trying to get out of bad weather and when it tried to look for safe place to land. If the pakis managed to 'track' a teeny-weeny Cheetah in those terrains and get the fighters airborne - well, I have a white domed building in agra to sell to you. Most likely, the forward posts of PA picked up the chopper as it drifted across and relayed the news back.

rohitvats ji,

Could have been a verbal reporting and subsequent scrambling of the aircraft. The pakis would very edgy after abbotabad and would be raring to show their mardangi and we foolishly provided them the golden opportunity to display their muscular balls.

They will squeeze this for all it's worth to regain some of their lost echandee with the local abduls.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 24 Oct 2011 16:18

SaiK wrote: Have you tried breaking into some normal encryption algorithms? what is the success rate? Are they kept at the same risk level or it has a short lived time before fix?

What is your experience in hacking? Again why do you think of explosion for "destruction"? jee hard eh? I would leave your "entire asset" as is for reuse.

have you tried flying su-30mki or even a cheetal chopper... ? what is this with folks here in BRF.. sometimes I gets confused whether I am in an Indian thread or a paki forum.. some folks seems to so hard press to prove that they are the sarcasm champion .. above all they are the last word as far as defense matter is concerned.. geez.. I am not sure what is your age Mr. Saik .. but I have known few teachers in my life who had embarrassed ignorance of their students with open arms..
there might be 90%-95% Indians.. of my age spending their day doing all sorts of mundane activities.. we at-least wake up in the morning and check BRF for half-hour before anything...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Oct 2011 16:19

the helicopter was downed by massed ranks of TFTA fauji abduls shouting A-o-A which caused djinns to force the kaffir halikaptar to come down
oh, and the pilot deciding to keep everyone alive by doing a controlled landing in the only place available
there simply would not have been the time to get a jet scrambled and in the zone
and if it had
it would have contravened the 10km exclusion zone for fixed wing aircraft
and even if it had
it would struggle to detect and acquire the helicopter...
a-o-a! ak phyrr!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 16:46

chetak wrote: rohitvats ji,

Could have been a verbal reporting and subsequent scrambling of the aircraft. The pakis would very edgy after abbotabad and would be raring to show their mardangi and we foolishly provided them the golden opportunity to display their muscular balls.

They will squeeze this for all it's worth to regain some of their lost echandee with the local abduls.

Chetak Sir,

I did factor that into account. Most probably, a FOP or even the men in posts in these areas, picked the chopper drifting across and reported back. But if you observe the alignment of LOC in the area, the chopper did not go too far across. And the moment it would have seen clearing, it would have commenced the descent - which, looking at the geography, most probably meant approaching along one of the valleys (Suru river or Indus river). Remember, it was low on fuel. So, unless the pakees had fighters in the area - Skardu or Gilgit -I don't think they had enough time to react with a fighter scramble.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Oct 2011 17:16

The newspaper quoted its sources as further saying that an investigation was underway to assess if yesterday's incident was a "mistake or a deliberate attempt to test Pakistans defence capabilities".

From

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 38220.html

Are the abduls confused, or was that really the aim? Our wildest dreams coming true?

An unnamed official said in normal circumstances, military personnel of a hostile country "were not freed in hours, but it had been done to give benefit of doubt because Pakistan did not want to vitiate the atmosphere and derail the composite dialogue process."

I have always maintained that the Pakis love our chai and biskoots. Never underestimate the Power of Parle!

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Oct 2011 18:42

sarcasm champion

!!
Wow.. We should have this as a Honorary rank in BRF!

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 24 Oct 2011 19:24

sum wrote:^^ Going purely by what was reported in the article you had pasted ( one paratrooper rushed across the LoC and returned before firing started)...

No chaiwallahs on this one to refute what the paper says.

I think this is what is being referred to Capt Vikalp sets example in bravery

This is regarding the Cheetah crash in Siachen in Apr 2007.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 24 Oct 2011 19:26

rajanb wrote:
The newspaper quoted its sources as further saying that an investigation was underway to assess if yesterday's incident was a "mistake or a deliberate attempt to test Pakistans defence capabilities".
From
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 38220.html

There are better ways to check preparedness or reaction time.If they are talking about Surveillance,without any instrumentation on board,then India must have stolen djinn technologies from Pakistan. Dr.Djinn Q Khan must have been responsible.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Oct 2011 19:28

the paquis have once again managed to get in front of the media and managed the story - almost all sources are carrying it as "pak forces indian copter down" - whereas if you read carefully they are not actually saying that - merely implying. our media handling really sucks

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 24 Oct 2011 21:43

Did chipanda presence in PoK have to do anything with this incident?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Oct 2011 21:47

^^^The initial press release from ISPR - the TSPA version of Baghdad Bob - said that the chopper was forced to land. That they tracked the chopper from with-in Ladakh, scrambled fighters when it crossed over and forced the chopper to land.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Oct 2011 21:47

When the commander realised his mistake, he turned round and headed back into Indian airspace. Indian forces mistook the aircraft as a Pakistani one and shot at it but, luckily, missed. The commander managed to “limp” to Leh. Investigations later revealed he had mistaken the Indus, which flows into Pakistan from Ladakh, for the Suru river. The Indus has many tributaries in the region.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111024/j ... 661069.jsp

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Oct 2011 21:53

^^^ Above quote is for 2002 incident involving Air Marshal Bhatia's An-32

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2011 21:53

the PAF has some fwd airbase in the region. CAPs were ongoing over gultari during kargil period. the F16 that got painted by our Mig29 was one that broke orbit over gultari and charged the Mig29s orbiting on our side.

> that pilots often navigate by sighting a river and following its course but that is always a risk.

some of the stuff being talked about for fleetwide helicopter updates like moving map displays will finally close the gaping holes like this. Dhruv would be having this by default.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Oct 2011 21:58

Oops

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 22:15

Altair wrote:quote="rajanb"
The newspaper quoted its sources as further saying that an investigation was underway to assess if yesterday's incident was a "mistake or a deliberate attempt to test Pakistans defence capabilities".
From
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 38220.html

There are better ways to check preparedness or reaction time.If they are talking about Surveillance,without any instrumentation on board,then India must have stolen djinn technologies from Pakistan. Dr.Djinn Q Khan must have been responsible.

What was done was actually the "classic" way to check preparedness and gauge reactions. Surveillance Radars will light up and missile or air defence gun control radars will try to lock on after that, radio chatter will indicate the exact position, organisation and plan of the opposing forces et al. Much can be gauged from the electronic emissions that can easily be recorded, exact positions plotted and analysed at leisure. I really would not be surprised if this was actually some kind of a probe and the low fuel explanation was the trump card to sell them a pup.

Instrumentation is never on board the intruding aircraft unless it's a serious elint aircraft. Don't underestimate the RAW. Radar signatures are vital in case the pakis have new equipment in the area. This will help to design counter measures against new threats.

If at all there was any instrumentation in this particular case it would have been on a stand off aircraft at some height and well within the Indian border and far away from prying eyes.

The fighter aircraft call could have been made from any aircraft at any range without the Indian pilot being any the wiser. Accurate position of the chopper with relation to any prominent geographical feature could have been relayed to the "transmitting" aircraft from visual sighting of the chopper to convince the Indian pilot that he was in the cross hairs of an F-16 or whatever.

The pakis are past masters at spinning things well after the fact. Further confusion is added by the fact the Indians and the pakis both operate Cheetahs in this area.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 22:23

Lalmohan wrote:the paquis have once again managed to get in front of the media and managed the story - almost all sources are carrying it as "pak forces indian copter down" - whereas if you read carefully they are not actually saying that - merely implying. our media handling really sucks

No Doubt on this score.

We are lumbering muddy buffaloes compared to their colorful, nimble and beautifully choreographed peacock type of confident media handling.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Oct 2011 22:24

at least during kargil the AB in skardu was not used regularly by fighters. only some F-7's were based there for the duration of the conflict. F-16's continued to fly from kamra(PAF minhas) and sargodha(PAF mushaf). I highly doubt any paki fighter was in that area. the cheetah does not have any RWR AFAIK.
they would know this too, allowing them to spin the story by adding fighter masala.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 22:28

rajanb wrote:
The newspaper quoted its sources as further saying that an investigation was underway to assess if yesterday's incident was a "mistake or a deliberate attempt to test Pakistans defence capabilities".
From

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pa ... 38220.html

Are the abduls confused, or was that really the aim? Our wildest dreams coming true?

An unnamed official said in normal circumstances, military personnel of a hostile country "were not freed in hours, but it had been done to give benefit of doubt because Pakistan did not want to vitiate the atmosphere and derail the composite dialogue process."
I have always maintained that the Pakis love our chai and biskoots. Never underestimate the Power of Parle!

At this time they have bigger fish to fry in terms of getting us to withdraw objections for their (very much beyond their quota) preferential access to the EU markets for their textiles.
Our help would stop bangladesh and some other countries from protesting too much and give the pakis the big lollipop that they so badly want.

We have foolishly given them a golden opportunity to exploit us yet again.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Oct 2011 22:29

Rahul M wrote:at least during kargil the AB in skardu was not used regularly by fighters. only some F-7's were based there for the duration of the conflict. F-16's continued to fly from kamra(PAF minhas) and sargodha(PAF mushaf). I highly doubt any paki fighter was in that area. the cheetah does not have any RWR AFAIK.
they would know this too, allowing them to spin the story by adding fighter masala.

No RWR on the cheetah for sure.

saip · Post by **saip** » 24 Oct 2011 23:17

This story appears to be more believable and closer to the truth. All about the chopper being forced to land and scrambling of fighter jets and djinns appear to be H&D.

Indian Army personnel of strayed chopper treated well in Pak

Link

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Oct 2011 01:12

Pakistan took security data from the Army chopper

New Delhi, October 25, 2011
Email to Author

Indian security has been breached in the sensitive Siachen Glacier-Aksai Chin-Ladakh-Kargil sector as Pakistan Army downloaded the GPS coordinates of all helipads from the army helicopter that strayed across the Line of Control (LoC) into Skardu region on Sunday morning. The Indian Cheetah
helicopter along with the crew was allowed to return by Pakistan government later in the day.

Top government sources said the incident was being probed at a high level as the GPS data of the helicopter was found wiped out along with nicknames and code signs of all the helipads in the 14 Corps area.

The Nemu, Leh-based 14 Corps is responsible for defence of Kargil-Leh, Siachen Glacier and Line of Actual Control (LAC) with Tibet.

“We are treating the incident with utmost concern as coordinates of all helipads in the 14 Corps including Siachen Glacier and LAC are now with Pakistan army with code signs and nicknames,” said a senior official.

Senior officials said the Indian crew was being questioned as the Cheetah was fitted with the GPS and there was no reason for the machine to stray into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

To add insult to injury, the Pakistan artillery helipad (with number 90), on which the Cheetah landed in the Marol area just across the LoC in Kargil sector was not known to the Indian Army. The Pakistan army allowed the chopper to return to Kargil after refuelling the machine and giving directions to pilots.

While Pakistan now says its fighter jet forced the Indian helicopter to land across the LoC, prima facie evidence reveals that the Indian pilot didn’t know where he had landed the helicopter due to bad weather conditions nor the Pakistan army had any clue about the landing.

Sources said 14 Corps commander Lt Gen Ravi Dastane was visiting an Indian position on Sunday morning ahead of Kargil when his advanced light helicopter (ALH) helicopter developed a snag and was grounded.

While another machine landed and flew Dastane to Srinagar, the Cheetah with a maintenance engineer was flown to the post to bring back the ALH after repairs.
It was during this maintenance mission that the Cheetah flew into bad weather and without the pilot realising it crossed the LoC into Pakistan territory of Marol, just across the Kargil town.

Quite sinister....

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Oct 2011 02:24

Indian security has been breached in the sensitive Siachen Glacier-Aksai Chin-Ladakh-Kargil sector as Pakistan Army downloaded the GPS coordinates of all helipads from the army helicopter that strayed across the Line of Control (LoC) into Skardu region on Sunday morning. The Indian Cheetah helicopter along with the crew was allowed to return by Pakistan government later in the day.

Top government sources said the incident was being probed at a high level as the GPS data of the helicopter was found wiped out along with nicknames and code signs of all the helipads in the 14 Corps area.

So much for the vaunted encryption systems being used. Wonder if it was TomTom or Garmin. Seriously, if anybody can just plug in and download the coordinates like Jeff Goldblum in the movie Independence Day uploading a virus into an alien mothership with a laptop, then we have huge security issues.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 25 Oct 2011 03:13

How about this logic:-- Make small tiny harmless cheetah helicopter do incursion, everybody on the other side gets excited, looks skywards/inwards and starts mas******ing....in the meanwhile no one looking at border, squeeze in some SF guys across to do some Dawood Ibrahim searching

Just wishful thinking!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2011 03:21

I guess the Pakis will cross check this GPS coordinates data with the IAF's helicopter tender!

Any what does our ex-intelligence super cop have to say about this part of the TSP behavior!

Looks ike a bad month for IAF and IA in North East.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 25 Oct 2011 03:52

It's not a reflection on the IA or the IAF as much as it is on the netas (note LC). The MoD types refused to OK snowmobiles until Fernandes threatened to post them to Siachen.

What is pitiful is that we are asking IA/IAF types in the Siachen area to earn their hardship bonuses by flying what are 1960s copters that have gen 1 GPS' (handheld most likely).

Move the freaking helipads, change the code names and above all get new gear funded by a reallocation of MP discretionary constituency funds.

'Occupy LS'

The One percenti is causing serious takleef in defending India.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 25 Oct 2011 05:19

PratikDas wrote:
Indian security has been breached in the sensitive Siachen Glacier-Aksai Chin-Ladakh-Kargil sector as Pakistan Army downloaded the GPS coordinates of all helipads from the army helicopter that strayed across the Line of Control (LoC) into Skardu region on Sunday morning. The Indian Cheetah helicopter along with the crew was allowed to return by Pakistan government later in the day.

Top government sources said the incident was being probed at a high level as the GPS data of the helicopter was found wiped out along with nicknames and code signs of all the helipads in the 14 Corps area.
So much for the vaunted encryption systems being used. Wonder if it was TomTom or Garmin. Seriously, if anybody can just plug in and download the coordinates like Jeff Goldblum in the movie Independence Day uploading a virus into an alien mothership with a laptop, then we have huge security issues.

lolz... and yes someone mentioned "satellite encrypted self destruction sequence activation" or whatever that is.. reminds me of Alice in Wonderland..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 05:33

the HT story is full of inconsistencies, if pakistan didn't know of the helo how did they download the GPS data ? are they djinns. isn't it more likely that the senior officers on board would delete the data by themselves on seeing the pakis.