Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 21 Oct 2011 07:22

DAWN : Pakistan lost two brigades in war on terror

Interesting article in the dawn

1. In the ongoing war on terrorism the armed forces have so far lost the equivalent of two full brigades.
2. Among those killed were one three-star and a couple of two-star generals.
3. Director-General of Military Operations Maj-Gen Ashfaq Nadeem said that 3,097 personnel had been killed and 721 others permanently disabled.
4. Since 2007, he said, more than 140,000 armed forces personnel had been deployed along the Afghan border

http://www.dawn.com/2011/10/20/pakistan ... error.html

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Oct 2011 17:46

Pak tests nuclear-capable Hatf-7 cruise missile

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2011 21:08

Pakistan Successfully Tests Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile

Pakistan has successfully tested the Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) today. Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) has announced that Hatf-VII Babur was test fired against the target at a range of 700 kilometers.

Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) has a maximum range of 750 kilometers km and longer range version with range of 1000km is also under development. Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile features stealth shaping and low flying capability to avoid detection by the enemy radars.

Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) was test fired from a new multi tube Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV) which carries three tube MLV allowing Pakistan Army to rapidly engage its targets with surgical precision.

Hatf-VII Babur Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) uses Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching and Area Co-relation (DSMAC) to achieve circular error probability (CEP) of less then 3 meters.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2011 21:15

Pakistan obtains hi-tech warfare suite pod to upgrade F-16 fighter aircraft

Karachi, Oct 25(ANI): Pakistan has bought the American ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod for their fighter aircraft, according to a media report.

Pakistan will receive the ALQ-211 (V) 9 (Version 9), which costs about 3.5 million dollars per pod, The News reports.

The ALQ-211 allows the aircraft to detect radar, jamming and laser signals hitting the aircraft, as well as the presence of chemical weapons.

It also provides some jamming of its own, and assistance on where the signal is coming from, so that the pilot can move the aircraft away from the threat, said a report published in a US magazine.

The ALQ-211 is also installed in helicopters, but not as a pod. Rather, the individual components are installed in the helicopter where space is available.

Components of the ALQ-211 are programmable, so that the system can quickly be updated for newly discovered enemy equipment. (ANI)

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 29 Oct 2011 04:02

Haraam Images. Mijjile is not painted green

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6m-lHNLp7MU/T ... ersion.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-01cUDCCQs5c/T ... ersion.jpg

Admin Note: Please DO NOT post large images in threads. Not everyone has fast internet connections.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Oct 2011 17:26

so basically PRC has kitted up its Munna with a working cruise missile and launch system, perhaps with some small mods to the launcher to keep a cloak of deniability.

we are behind in this area and need to make up ground. even if the CEP is 50m and this thing has no radar stealth, yet its low flight and long range inherently means it can take zig zag routes and hide behind hilly ranges and present a danger.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2011 19:01

Stuff like this is why I hope the IAF pays more and more attention to strike capabilities with long range fighters & a variety of sensors able to feed real time data back to the shooters.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Oct 2011 09:56

Can India put trackers on these silently. Some sort of invisible beacon

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Oct 2011 10:27

From missile to launcher Babur LACM imitates Tomahawk GLCM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Oct 2011 12:32

the only diff I see is Thawk used a inclined launch position. they have done a good job of cloning the looks...must have been in process for years before Babur was delivered. the 3 round container system is modelled on the 4 round thawk
http://steeljawscribe.com/wordpress/wp- ... glcm_5.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/cru ... nd-air.jpg

matter of 2-3 yrs before the pakis mount inclined box launchers amidships on their F22 ships giving them a n-strike capability from the sea also.

conventional threat level depends on how many of these the pakis can afford. if they can afford high 100s of these, then its a threat.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2011 16:37

Use of cruise missile in large number would be a challenge for any air defence and tough nut to crack.

I would bet eventually these cruise missile will get more accurate when mil grade GPS signal from Chinese Bediou satellite become available.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Oct 2011 16:45

and dsmac/tercom needs 3d cartographic data which I guess PRC has provided to Pak for the indian region.

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 31 Oct 2011 02:18

they'll likely approach the Turks at some point; friend of mine told me that Pakistani military delegation did go to Turkey to observe the 'Atak' chopper

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2011 10:32

Who makes the engined for Babur? Any cites/refs?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 31 Oct 2011 10:39

The engine may be based on the Tomahawk, but it also seems likely that it is based on the Russian AS-15, the Russian SS-N-27 Club, or a Chinese turbojet design.

http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id. ... detail.asp

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2011 10:54

vishnu.nv wrote:
The engine may be based on the Tomahawk, but it also seems likely that it is based on the Russian AS-15, the Russian SS-N-27 Club, or a Chinese turbojet design.
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id. ... detail.asp

Thanks. I was looking at the question from the viewpoint of Pakistan actually being able to produce a turbojet/turbofan engine from turbine blades down to bearings, pumps etc. I was unable to find any refs saying that they are supplied by anyone, but that always excludes the Chinese. Looking at the variety of Pakistan defence and non military tech products it seems unlikely that they have managed to nail the production of jet engines. Fact is, if you can get this right then you should be able to produce other things using the same engine. here are the "other things"?

So where are the engine components coming from?

The Williams engine of the Tomahawks are said to use tetrahydromethylcyclopentadiene dimer fuel (TH-dimer). Is this a big deal to produce? Pakistan does not have enough refinery capacity to refine their fuel oil so where is the organic chemistry base for that fuel - if indeed that fuel is used? Or does the engine used standard aviation spirit? Is such stuf being exported to Pakistan by anyone? Any info (anyone) in this regard?

A cruise missile engine requires liquid fuel. Is Babur refuelled prior to launch? Or does it use some long-term storable fuel?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 11:09

as their raad missile is south african..could be inputs from there too + main prc

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2011 11:22

Shiv , Engine has just one source Ukrainian , they have supplied the Kh-55 turbofan engine to China , who in turned reverse engineered it and used it for their program and Babur wont be any exception there if these turbofan are procured from Ukraine. ( China does not really need to reverse engineer those engine , Ukraine and China have deep defence relationship and every thing is available from them for a cost and legally )

As far as fueling goes cruise missiles have pre-stored liquid fuel see no reason why babur would be any different.

I doubt these days any missile including the pure liquid fuel ones needs/does refuelling prior to just launch , they would be either refuelled and kept ready for longer time or just kept empty in the storage . Even hypergolic fuel of Prithvi is mentioned as storable for 8 years after refuelling

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 11:28

ukraine did sell kh55 tech to all under a new name 'korshun' in mid to early 90s..this thing & prc hn-x glcm/alcm has air scoop internal engine but kh55 engine pod drops and hangs out.

word is our nirbhay licenses the same engine tech licensed from russia !!!

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 31 Oct 2011 11:37

Turkey given access to F-16 source codes to rewrite software source codes of 204 fighters

Turkey will be first country to get access to F-16 source code , Turk F-16 now will be able to engage Israeli F-16 and F-15 now , i am also sure pakistanis will also get hands to that to , wht benefits can PAF again from it ? i had read that PAF F-16 are not nuke capable , does it hold ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Oct 2011 12:21

There are references to other variants (KH-SD) of this missile where the engine remains inline with the fuselage and only the inlet/lip is lowered (Searching anything on Russian weapons is a major PITA

). Chipanda obviously got hold of the newer variant as a matter of coincidence the newer variant is reported to have a range of 700 km i.e. same as Babur.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 12:31

well we are definitely playing catch up here against cloned panda maal.

hopefully ours will have a newer model of engine (more fuel efficient) and hence more compact/heavier warhead

nirbhay should be sized from day1 for a 21" torpedo tube diameter

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 13:37

from horse's mouth in 2005....PRC must have swooped in and snapped up both technology and unemployed aerospace workers in big nos.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-05r.html

Ukraine Admits It Sold Cruise Missiles To Iran, China

Svyatoslav Piskun, Ukraine's prosecutor general, told the Financial Times that 18 Soviet-era KH-55 cruise missiles were exported in 2001 -- 12 to Iran and six to China.

Kiev (AFP) Mar 19, 2005
Ukraine has sold nuclear-capable cruise missiles to both China and Iran, the prosecutor-general's office said last Friday, but stressed that the deals were illegal and under criminal investigation.

"This is not about exports of missiles but rather illegal sales which are being investigated by the SBU (security service) which has opened a criminal investigation of the director of the company Ukraviazakas," the office said in a statement confirming a report by the London-based Financial Times's Friday edition.

The investigation was welcomed late last Friday by the United States, which along with Japan is reportedly worried about what appears to be a significant leak of military technology.

"I think it's fair to say that both the United States government and the Ukrainian government share a common concern and a dedication to acting to find out and prevent cases of proliferation," deputy US State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said.

"We've been working with the Ukrainian government to clamp down on proliferation. And the Ukrainian government, since these reports have come out, has said it's launching an internal investigation," he said.

"We certainly look forward to the results of that investigation," Ereli said. "And we'll work with them on steps and measures and joint actions we can take to prevent this kind of proliferation in the future."

Svyatoslav Piskun, Ukraine's prosecutor general, told the Financial Times that 18 Soviet-era KH-55 cruise missiles were exported in 2001 - 12 to Iran and six to China.

Piskun was also quoted as saying that the missiles were not exported with the nuclear warheads that they were designed to carry.

His office said a suspect in the case was currently standing a closed-door trial in Kiev.

Ukraine Foreign Minister Boris Tarasyuk said that the country's new leadership, which assumed power during late last year, was not responsible for the sales.

"We can only condemn the non-democratic actions that were carried out by the previous authorities," he said while on a visit to neighboring Belarus.

"The results of (our) investigation point to a criminal group that was involved in unlawful sales of arms," he said. Tarasyuk said the group included citizens of several countries.

The X-55, an air-launched missile also known as the Kh-55 and AS-15 and first introduced in 1976, has a range of 3,500 kilometers (2,175 miles), which would give China - or North Korea, if it obtained the missile - easy access to Japan, while Iran could hit its main regional foe, Israel.

Last month the Ukrainian government opened a criminal inquiry, at the request of Japan, into the illegal sale of 18 missiles by the Ukrspetsexport arms group to unspecified states via Russia.

The Ukrainian confirmation of missiles sales to Iran comes amid a tense diplomatic debate over Tehran's alleged quest for nuclear weaponry.

Reports about the missile sales going to Iran emerged earlier this month.

However Friday's statement was the first acknowledgement from the Kiev government, and is likely to heighten suspicions about Tehran's nuclear program.

The Islamic republic insists its nuclear program is aimed at peaceful civilian use but Washington claims it is designed to produce nuclear arms.

Ukraine had a massive weapons arsenal after the fall of the Soviet Union, but it returned its nuclear warheads to Russia or destroyed them under a US-funded disarmament program.

Its remaining weaponry is, however, a source of major concern in the West, fueled by several high-profile cases of arms trafficking including radar technology to Saddam Hussein's now ousted regime in Iraq.

Two anti-aircraft missiles and a launch system were reported stolen last month from a Ukrainian naval base in the Crimean peninsula, while Turkey reported seizing a Ukrainian radio-controlled missile and missile heads en route to Egypt last June.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 13:47

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongniao_%28missile%29

The breakup of former-USSR provided a great boost for the Chinese effort in developing its own turbofan powered cruise missiles. According to US intelligence, by the end of 1992, China had successfully recruited more than fifteen hundred former Soviet missile scientists to work in China, and around twenty percent, roughly totaling around three hundred, were assigned to work in Shanghai to specifically aid the Chinese cruise missile development. Although many Chinese sources agreed with the US intelligence, they disagree on the contributions of Russian/Soviet scientists: instead of helping China to develop a particular kind missile, Russian/Soviet expertise was first utilized on a much broader strategic scale in helping China to build the necessary industrial capability needed to indigenously develop its own missiles in the future. These Chinese claims have been correlated by the facts that despite a complete set of Raduga Kh-55 production facility is transferred to China from Russia in 1995, and the Russian public announcement of helping China in developing cruise missiles at 1996 Paris Airshow, the first Chinese turbofan powered land attack cruise missile did not enter service until somewhere in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s, well after the turbojet powered CF series land attack cruise missiles had already entered Chinese service.

In addition to the transfer of a complete Kh-55 production facility from Russia to China around 1995, China received another great boost in its land attack cruise missile development in that between 1999 to 2001, half-a-dozen Kh-55 missiles were delivered to China from Ukraine (a dozen were transferred to Iran from Ukraine at the same time), and these supposedly to be destroyed samples under US-funded disarmament program have provided valuable experience for China in its effort in developing its own versions, including both the HN series and DH-10

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 13:53

PRC has rebadged the HN-1 as the Babur and given them a newer TELAR vehicle...600km range, 400kg payload
http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id. ... detail.asp

going by reports of "1000km range babur under development" the transfer of the HN-2 missile appears imminent.
it reportedly has a high alt mode (ok for strikes from the sea where no defenses exist) that extends its range to 1800km.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Oct 2011 19:01

^^its toast to 2084+spyder combo. Plus Akash can handle subsonic cruise missiles. Where is Pakistan getting imagery for TERCOM or DSMAC? They dont have any recce aircraft or pod or satellite. Unless China provides them with targeting data, this baby is useless.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2011 19:19

singha - excellent information, thanks. So the Babur is Chinese with KH-55 as grandfather.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 31 Oct 2011 20:55

Singha wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongniao_%28missile%29

The breakup of former-USSR provided a great boost for the Chinese effort in developing its own turbofan powered cruise missiles. According to US intelligence, by the end of 1992, China had successfully recruited more than fifteen hundred former Soviet missile scientists to work in China, and around twenty percent, roughly totaling around three hundred, were assigned to work in Shanghai to specifically aid the Chinese cruise missile development.

OT. These scientists offered their services to India at the same pay as they received while at USSR but babus in Delhi told that no other government servant in India can be paid more than IAS grade salaries. Some scientists at DRDO and BDL also were not inclined to work under Russians. Reasons are unknown and it would not matter. India lacks strategic vision. Plain and simple.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2011 21:02

indeed - brahmos co has less than <40 russian scientists for comparison per a report I read iirc.

Tsarkar sir, I fully agree the spyder can take down a typical CM like this, but pls note we are purchasing only 25 systems for IAF bases only. there are *tons* of targets both military and commercial which will be left undefended by VShorad systems even no ZSU type guns. there's just too many targets in India. the bofors L70 might have a hard time against CMs. what else is there? trishul never panned out. Akash again is costly and for vital targets only. we could use a cheap twin 30mm auto cannon system with good radar + EO in huge numbers. not sure how costly the Oerlikon Skyshield system is , but should be cheaper than Spyder for sure (I hope) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyshield

we also need aerostat radars and a line of ground radars to provide early warning and 'warm up' the systems for potential targets.

china would have having the necessary cartosat type sats for their own use and have no doubt supplied the necessary details for Indian region - if they can pass along the whole missiles and TELAR, the imagery is just the software part of it.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Oct 2011 21:51

are we sure that this baby has TERPROM nav? maybe it just uses simple GPS plus inertial nav?

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Nov 2011 05:53

Well obviously Spyder is made for countering this kind of stuff however the key point to be noted is it is difficult to detect and track these things early enough , even in absence of an up to date cartographic data since this is a slow moving missile and equipped with a throttle-able engine one can still come up with a rudimentary jugaad and programme this thing to fly a select path via set waypoints (GPS+INS and altimeter should be enough for that) and if it flies at say 50 m altitude as against Tomahawk's 15-20 m it will still be a challenge to detect and track this CM early enough as against a typical IRBM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Nov 2011 10:44

Cruise missile are a tough nut to crack , its difficult to track while in flight and it flies low but not so slow , even AWACS find it hard to track such a small object against clutter background , a smart enemy can program it to fly around your air defense , thats what makes it lethal.

If you can accurately track it then even a Stinger or Igla can bring it down if its in its effective engagement range of these manpads.

Hopefully with our layered defense now being built and defence in depth we will be able to tackle this menace.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Nov 2011 10:55

if enough early warning is there, I think fighters might be able to target CMs with AAMs as they have no rwr or evasive manouvers and should be a simple target. but the devil is in the details - against a barrage of 20 CMs coming in different routes its very hard to position 20 fighters where they will have a chance to shoot. inevitably many will leak and be left to terminal point defence. a good AA gun can again at best target a bubble around 6km in diameter onlee.

good thing is nobody other than Khan seems to have a stock of cruise missiles to overwhelm over a sustained period. europe NATO has a stock of few 100s of scalp/taurus type things and its unlike the pakis can afford enough baburs to launch a huge conventional attack more than once or twice. its more likely going to be a special weapon reserved for n-weapon and 'strategic' and 'prestige' targets only like agra, nagpur or wherever our tankers, awacs etc are known to be located deep behind the front.

arun · Post by **arun** » 02 Nov 2011 09:03

US investigation of the killing of an US Army Officer Maj. Larry J. Bauguess, Jr by the Frontier Corps of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan glosses over the Pakistani Military’s culpability by claiming that “ There is little evidence to support collaboration within the Pakistani militia or military”.

The US investigation seems to be silent on why other members of the Frontier Corps felt it necessary to return fire in support of the “rogue”

member of the Pakistani Frontier Corps who opened fire and killed Maj. Bauguess:

Pentagon confirms that Pakistani in militia uniform killed a US Army officer in May 2007

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Nov 2011 06:41

Time to offer Vietnam and possibly Taiwan, and others some Shaurya/B'mos type stuff just to cause Khujli. Heh, even the offer in itself would be a good step in the right direction, would love to see dragon reaction.

CM

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Nov 2011 13:53

2048 is designed to track rockets like Nasr and cruise missiles like Ra'ad and Babur. Once effectively tracked, even L70 with PFFC can shred cruise missiles http://ofbindia.nic.in/products/data/am ... /mc/14.htm

PFFC is specifically a UAV/subsonic cruise missile shredder round

The L70 is a very good gun, and can be made into a very effective CIWS when mated to a good radar and vehicle. Swedish CV90 and Abhay designs used the gun.

I would mount it on a rudimentary turret with a Flycatcher on a Stallion with hydraulic jacks for stability while firing. The naval version could use an integral Oerlikon TMX. Both are BEL manufactured.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 05 Nov 2011 05:53

The Ally From Hell
Pakistan lies. It hosted Osama bin Laden (knowingly or not). Its government is barely functional. It hates the democracy next door. It is home to both radical jihadists and a large and growing nuclear arsenal (which it fears the U.S. will seize). Its intelligence service sponsors terrorists who attack American troops. With a friend like this, who needs enemies?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... hell/8730/

Why Pakistan Can't Turn China Against the U.S.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... us/247930/

navneeet · Post by **navneeet** » 05 Nov 2011 23:59

From the above link The Ally from Hell

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... hell/8730/

Nuclear-weapons components are sometimes moved by helicopter and sometimes moved over roads. And instead of moving nuclear material in armored, well-defended convoys, the SPD prefers to move material by subterfuge, in civilian-style vehicles without noticeable defenses, in the regular flow of traffic. According to both Pakistani and American sources, vans with a modest security profile are sometimes the preferred conveyance.

, nuclear bombs capable of destroying entire cities are transported in delivery vans on congested and dangerous roads

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 07 Nov 2011 08:08

Mr. Ravi Rikhye in orbat.com on the latest tamasha about Pakistan Nuclear weapons.

Pakistani N-warheads zapping around the highways and byways? Who comes up with this stuff? Atlantic Magazine has a a video interview http://t.co/GfdrvoZV where a gentleman says that to keep the US from seizing its N-warheads the Pakistanis are moving them around on the road. To avoid drawing attention, they are using ordinary trucks without protection. Big danger, says this person, because if AQ could get a hold of a schedule, they could seize a truck.

This information caused us considerable confusion. Not because we wonder how the Pakistanis will secure their warheads that just go rolling around, because the Pakistanis are doing no such idiot thing. We're confused because we wonder who puts out this stuff and then expects people to believe it.

May we also ask where the figure of 100 warheads so often used comes from? The real figure is a fraction that. Now, we agree that no one wants even handful of warheads doing their Keep On Truckin' number, so we are not relating this to the story of the peregrinating warheads. We're merely saying this figure has been around for at least 25 years. where is it coming from? Please don't quite some think tank on this, because they don't know either.

Another thing: where do people get the idea that if India attacks Pakistan, Pakistan will use tactical nuclear warheads to stop Indian spearheads? Don't people understand in the field you normally need one warhead per mechanized or tank company - if you hit it squarely. That's why you need lots and lots of warheads to deter a ground thrust. And the process of reconnaissance and targeting when you're using N-weapons is very complicated, especially when you're firing them on your own territory! You don't want to make a mistake and then say: "Oopsies! There goes Sialkot! Our bad!" and by the way, Pakistan says it has tactical warheads. We say it makes sense for Pakistan to SAY that, but operating tactical weapons are something else altogether.

These things are basically unusable unless you want to do a mutual suicide. There's all this nonsense about you cant have a conventional war under a nuclear overhang. Well, India and Pakistan just did, in 1999.

Let Editor be clear: he regards Pakistan as India's enemy. But that doesn't mean you attribute to your enemy every little bit of silliness you can come up, like the wandering warheads. That's not intelligent. And for Americans to be saying stupid stuff about Pakistan doesn't make the Pakistanis stupid. It makes the Americans look stupid.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Nov 2011 10:49

Ashutosh Malik wrote:Mr. Ravi Rikhye in orbat.com on the latest tamasha about Pakistan Nuclear weapons.

Pakistani N-warheads zapping around the highways and byways? Who comes up with this stuff? Atlantic Magazine has a a video interview http://t.co/GfdrvoZV where a gentleman says that to keep the US from seizing its N-warheads the Pakistanis are moving them around on the road. To avoid drawing attention, they are using ordinary trucks without protection. Big danger, says this person, because if AQ could get a hold of a schedule, they could seize a truck.

This is good and right kind of questions
The entire senario is for creating the image of 'nuclear Flashpoint' which they want to create into a real picture with this kind of news