Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[svinayak]

Foto please

[shijo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile

in this link it is shown that nirbhay missile is operational is this true
Nirbhay India (246 Nos. Operational)

[Pratyush]

^^^

The first test flight has not happened as yet. The entry into service is a long way off. Wiki is not the most reliable source.

[Shrinivasan]

The first test flight has not happened as yet. The entry into service is a long way off. Wiki is not the most reliable source.

IMHO flight tests have been conducted quietly, as it is a Cruise missile, no CBM mandated warnings to neighbors.

[Pratyush]

The flight tests have not happened. If they had happened, the DRDO would have announced the success of failure of the tests. In the media there is nothing that suggests that this particular missile has ever been tested. Unless the Lakshya is being mistaken for the Nirbhaya..

[abhik]

The Pars L3 test and Spike testing has preceeded the development on the HELINA. And it has been stressed that these are interim measures - simply because the helicopter is ready and needs a ATGM now. Unless, someone can tell me that HELINA will be ready in next couple of months, I don't think there is any point making the helo go with-out a proper ATGM.

Saar, is the helicopter ready?

[Pratyush]

The ALH Rudra ought to be ready. The Janmjeya will still take some time. But the Missile for both have to be ready. There is no point in having 3 different missiles for three different armed helos.

[vishnu.nv]

Janmjeya ??

[Pratyush]

The LCH is named as such

[aniket]

The American satellites that run the GPS had been switched off on the day Barack Obama was sworn in the United States President, they said. The missile, therefore, traveled for 112 seconds instead of the slated 84 seconds and fell 7 km away from the target"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos
Is the Brahmos really that dependent on the GPS system ? Doesn't it use INS or GLONASS as a secondary system ?

[Karan M]

Aniket, your own source (if you google it up, its an article by TSS) says the GPS provides inputs to INS. So it was INS+GPS. In answer to your second question, refer to DRoys post in the DRDO thread. Yes, the current receivers can take input from Glonass as well. And India & Russia (refer Ajai Shukla) have signed an agreement wherein India has access to secure Glonass data.

[aniket]

Thanks

[Austin]

Actually Brahmos does use GPS signals but it does not take its update/reference from US GPS which is NAVSTAR but Russian GPS GLONASS , in one of brahmos test conducted using GLONASS signals Dr Pillai said he was happy with GLONASS performance then it just has 18 satellites now its got better to 24 which it needs for global coverage.

[vasu_ray]

X posting the Quote from the DRDO thread

"India’s totally indigenous multi-satellite
constellation receiver (GPS+GLONASS+GAGAN)
for high-dynamic applications. He has also developed
India’s first miniaturised, 500 fibre-optic gyro-based
INS+GPS (FINGS) system. Currently, he is working
on MEMS-based miniaturised INS+GPS+GLONASS+
Magnetometer System (MINGS)"

'long range subsonic cruise vehicle' is getting ready for test flight which suggests a low flying paradigm and hence use of terrain data, would be interesting to watch for the navigation system that goes into the subsonic cruise vehicle

[Kanson]

Is the Brahmos really that dependent on the GPS system ? Doesn't it use INS or GLONASS as a secondary system ?

In another development, the missile was tested recently in India for a new precision targeting capability by which the less significant targets in a cluster of targets would be hit. The rationale was that if the enemy was holed up in a small building or bunker surrounded by large structures, the missile would go for the smaller targets rather than destroy a larger target nearby. While a section of the media had dubbed the test a “failure”, sources said the missile went over the target by a small margin which accounts for more than 99% accuracy in such a complex scenario and the same would be corrected in subsequent trialst o have 100% hit accuracy, the sources said.

The Brahmos missile new capability would be far superior to some of the precision- GPS guided missiles used by the U.S. military such as the Tomahawk. Rather than relying on GPS satellites which were not controlled by India, the Brahmos missile uses its inertial navigation systems and target seekers to achieve precise coordinates with advanced software updation .

The missile is highly accurate without any GPS updates. GPS addition is to achieve precise flight path involving complex target scenario which assumes importance as the missile is supersonic compared to the subsonic counterparts those got enough time(becoz of less speed) to make adjustments to its flight path. Efforts have been taken to even remove such error through software upgrade. Nowadays, it is standard to see INS+GPS systems everywhere.

[chackojoseph]

^^^^ The targeting is done by a helio or other. Once co-ordinates fed, it homes itself and can recognize clutter and movement. Most times, it will be cued.

[koti]

^^What kind of targeting is this? Will this be taking the optical/radar photographs of targets or only get its most recent co-ordinates? Or is it more like an active painting?

[chackojoseph]

Logically active radar paint with datalink. The Helio/UAV can be 150 - 300 kms away from the target. There than the threat of an air wing, that is a safe distance.

[koti]

Block II and III have an active seeker. Why should the UAV paint the target for the Missile?
Also, I think, to have a radar capable of painting a ground based target at 300 KM is unlikely.
The primary targeting for the Brahmos will be IMO satellite based providing the terrain fingerprints which the Brahmos uses to lock on to a feature or to a residual feature.

[Philip]

Can someone please post the report that the Orissa govt. is refusing to renew the Chandipur missile range lease.Incredible!

[rajanb]

Phillip, is this what you are looking for?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 363187.cms

State govt, DRDO lock port horns

Cheers

[chackojoseph]

Block II and III have an active seeker. Why should the UAV paint the target for the Missile?
Also, I think, to have a radar capable of painting a ground based target at 300 KM is unlikely.
The primary targeting for the Brahmos will be IMO satellite based providing the terrain fingerprints which the Brahmos uses to lock on to a feature or to a residual feature.

Just because there is an active seeker doesn't mean to rely on it solely. Do we have a sat asset to give a the kind of accurate terrain finger prints for a 150 km strike in a tactical situation or a moving target? IMHO.

[Yagnasri]

I do not understand why Orissa need some 4 ports in private sector within a small area. There is not much things to export from Odissa except minarals. Is mining mafia preventing missile development efforts?

[koti]

Just because there is an active seeker doesn't mean to rely on it solely.

Yes, but I was unable to see the advantage it gains in operating in passive mode.

Do we have a sat asset to give a the kind of accurate terrain finger prints for a 150 km strike in a tactical situation or a moving target? IMHO.

Our current satellites can pass the war fronts every 12 hours or so. We have more then few satellites to have a decent pass time over all.
Moving targets will be well protected by AA. UAV or a helo will be very risky to do the illuminating IMO.

[Singha]

without a desi JSTARS with automated GMTI eqpt constantly looking at a grid, there is no chance of hitting targets of opportunity or moving targets using analysis of satellite imagery which will take hours....by which time target is gone.

thats why I am surprised there is no official word on a desi JSTARs project. hopefully its being done in ABM proj mode with israel.

[chackojoseph]

Just because there is an active seeker doesn't mean to rely on it solely.

1) Yes, but I was unable to see the advantage it gains in operating in passive mode.

Do we have a sat asset to give a the kind of accurate terrain finger prints for a 150 km strike in a tactical situation or a moving target? IMHO.

2) Our current satellites can pass the war fronts every 12 hours or so. We have more then few satellites to have a decent pass time over all.
Moving targets will be well protected by AA. UAV or a helo will be very risky to do the illuminating IMO.

1) Please read through the advantages and disadvantages of active and passive modes and their employment.

2) How will it help mark a tactical target?

[Kanson]

^^What kind of targeting is this? Will this be taking the optical/radar photographs of targets or only get its most recent co-ordinates? Or is it more like an active painting?

I couldn't get what Chacko is hinting at. But Brahmos can be operated in two modes: 1) Autonomous/ Fire and Forget 2) Man in loop guidance.

1) Autonomous mode : Usual Brahmos with active seeker guidance gaining prominence in terminal phase with or without help from GPS. Guidance during mid-course is through INS/GPS.

2) Man in loop: Like NAG/HELINA, Brahmos can be directed at target in terminal phase.

[vasu_ray]

^^^

what would be the accuracy of the Brahmos flight path given a trajectory to the target? is it within x metres of the planned trajectory? GAGAN is said be accurate to 3 meters

[Kanson]

^ Pinpoint accuracy. Less than a meter.

[chackojoseph]

I couldn't get what Chacko is hinting at.

Kasonji,
I doubt that we will find an ideal situation in a short fast paced war. Don't expect a fixed target for a tactical strike. You will need tracking + Painting asset. hence I am saying that if it has the capability doesn't mean it will be used that way.

In Land attack version, Brahmos can hit the size like a foot ball goal post.

[Gaur]

In Land attack version, Brahmos can hit the size like a foot ball goal post.

Much better actually. There are videos on youtube showing Brahmos hitting a very small triangular target with a deviation of hardly 1 or 2 feet from the bulls eye.

[chackojoseph]

Much better actually. There are videos on youtube showing Brahmos hitting a very small triangular target with a deviation of hardly 1 or 2 feet from the bulls eye.

It is a demonstrated capability. The outcome can vary. I wonder if we will find targets that small.

[ramana]

Damage is a function of CEP. With such low numbers even conventional can take out quite few targets. A 200kg conventional can take out many things with such numbers.

[Kanson]

I couldn't get what Chacko is hinting at.

Kasonji,
I doubt that we will find an ideal situation in a short fast paced war. Don't expect a fixed target for a tactical strike. You will need tracking + Painting asset. hence I am saying that if it has the capability doesn't mean it will be used that way.

In Land attack version, Brahmos can hit the size like a foot ball goal post.

Thanks for the clarification Chacko ji. Yes during war things will be fluid. However, their own cadre talk critical on the cost factor of Brahmos considering the alternatives they have or can purchase at much cheaper rate for the same purpose. How do you see Army's attitude towards this aspect now.

Regarding the capabilities, I think it is at the Army's insistence that we have Brahmos LACM Block II and III. In your opinion, in imparting these capabilities Army seek a specific role(s) for Brahmos or a more generic one? Thank You.

[Kanson]

The ability to reuse is the best feature of our program. Even the US is now thinking of equipping newer Virginia with dual role BM/CM tubes, but we thought of it earlier.

Glad you brought this, Sir. It will be interesting to see how they put this to use.

[geeth]

tsarkar wrote
Something lobbed at 45 deg with baseline energy will reach faster than something lobbed at 22.5 deg, that will consume more energy it it has to cover the same distance.

May be you meant that at 45 Deg it reaches FARTHEST (not fastest). At 22.5 Deg, it will reach FASTER.

tsarkar wrote
I believe Shourya uses flex nozzles + gas control (similar to the Brahmos tipping mechanism) for imparting a depressed trajectory that consumes more energy than a pure ballistic flight path. Shourya doesnt have any lift generating surfaces.

Shourya uses flex nozzles to get a proper angle of attack, in order that its body produces the necessary lift. To prevent the body from heating up. the cylindrical body is rotated about its longitudinal axis.

I do not know if the missile uses the extreme limits of atmosphere to bounce back and forth (richochet) to be energy efficient and thus increase its range.

[chackojoseph]

1) However, their own cadre talk critical on the cost factor of Brahmos considering the alternatives they have or can purchase at much cheaper rate for the same purpose. How do you see Army's attitude towards this aspect now.

2) Regarding the capabilities, I think it is at the Army's insistence that we have Brahmos LACM Block II and III. In your opinion, in imparting these capabilities Army seek a specific role(s) for Brahmos or a more generic one? Thank You.

[/quote]

1) For the serving ones, the sheer range gives them an artillery that they normally won't dream off. If you notice, the GPS/GLASSNOS dependence cited by author, this is why I was saying that when push will come to shove, they will have to depend upon acquisition + Painting asset. However, in absence of such resources (or ideal conditions), the demonstrated capabilities can come into play.

2) Any equipment is supposed to to have a range of functioning. Say for Brahmos. We are being told about particular characteristics are terminal phase. The characteristics has been offered by the offering company. No matter what requirements the Army wants, the system can perform only to its technological limitations. For example, why is Army asking for say 10 meters? Why not less than .5 meters? So, now, the Brahmos is capable of operating at extreme end range as offered by the manufacturer. Army can operate it at the extreme end of the capabilities with certain fine prints from the manufacturer. For army, it has nothing comparable that hits within x meters CEP with a supersonic speed, at a range of 300 kms. What can replace that (referring to the author who talks about the cost)?

The author has mentioned a particular situation "Pre Set." Combine that the the last test of top attack behind say a mountain. In this situation, a locate + paint asset may not be help full. So, the last resort is the extreme demonstrated characteristics if ideal conditions prevail. Else it fails. If you remember, how air assets struggled to lob LGB's in kargil. Some factor or the other may prevent a perfect execution. I am sure, they will be working on Brahmos counter in some manner or other and don't expect them to sit tight and take it.

Hence, I said fluid and the author is also in a way talking about fluidity.

[arun]

X Posted from the India Nuclear News and Discussions 4 July 2011 thread.

Extract dealing with India from a report dated October 30, 2011 titled “Beyond the UK: Trends in the Other Nuclear Armed States” by Dr. Ian Kearn for the Trident Commission of the British American Security Information Council (BASIC):

9. India

Nuclear Weapons and Delivery Systems

India is thought to have something in the range of 60-80 assembled nuclear weapons, of which around 50 are fully operational.108 At the moment, fighter bombers (Mirage, Jaguar and possibly MiG-27s) and short range ballistic missiles (the Prithvi I with a range of only 150km) are the only fully operational elements of India’s nuclear force. However, because all Indian nuclear delivery systems are dual-capable (they can deliver either nuclear or conventional weapons to target), it is difficult to say more about the composition and readiness of the Indian nuclear force.

Force Modernisation

What is clear is that the country continues to develop a triad of land, sea and air-based delivery systems at a rapid rate. On land, the Agni I missile has undergone successful test launches and may now be operational. It has a range of around 700km, a significant advance over the Prithvi I. A successful testing of an Agni II missile, with a range of around 2,000km, was also reported in May 2010. This is an improved version of the Agni I and is designed to be either road, or rail-mobile. A rail-mobile Agni III, with a range of over 3,000km has been test flown on a number of occasions, and has been described by an Indian Army spokesperson as a missile that ‘can even strike Shanghai.’109 The Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) also announced plans in 2008 to build an Agni IV, with a range of 5,000km, sufficient to target the whole of Pakistan, and even Beijing. It is thought this might also be a technology demonstrator for the near intercontinental Agni V, which is also in development.

U.S. defence officials believe that between 2015 and 2020, the Indian nuclear force will be made up primarily of Agni III and Agni IV missiles with enhanced warheads, some possibly even with multiple warheads, though it is not clear that India will have the wherewithal to add MIRV capabilities to its missiles anytime in the near future.110

On 26 July 2009, India also launched its first SSBN, the Arihant. Four other submarines are reportedly planned. The Arihant appears to be serving as a technology development and integration platform and it is unclear whether it will become fully operational. It is thought to be equipped with 12 launch tubes for the K-15 version of the Sagarika missile which would have a range of around 300km and be capable of carrying a payload of around 500kg. This is a smaller payload than the 1,000kg plus planned for the land based missiles and might therefore indicate that India has developed a smaller warhead for deployment on its emerging SSBN fleet. India is further thought to have developed and successfully tested a nuclear capable ship-launched ballistic missile, the Dhanush, though this has a range of only around 350km, a fact which means that to reach land targets the ships carrying it would have to position themselves dangerously close to enemy shorelines before launching.111 India is developing an intermediate range (1,000km) land-attack cruise missile for deployment on land, sea and air platforms but it is not known at present whether it will be nuclear capable. To be so, India would need to develop a further small, light-weight warhead.

Declaratory Policy and Doctrine

The fundamental purpose of Indian nuclear weapons was stated in the late 1990s to be ‘to deter the use and threat of use of nuclear weapons by any state or entity against India and its forces.’112 In a statement on the operationalisation of its nuclear doctrine in 2003, it added that: ‘nuclear weapons will only be used in retaliation against a nuclear attack on Indian territory or on Indian forces anywhere’, and that ‘nuclear retaliation to a first strike will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage.’113 India has therefore declared a no-first use policy. However, it has reserved the right to modify this, declaring in the same 2003 statement that, ‘in the event of a major attack against India, or Indian forces anywhere, by biological or chemical weapons, India will retain the option of retaliating with nuclear weapons.’114 Indian nuclear policy is also officially based on the desire to maintain a ‘credible minimum’ nuclear deterrent, though it has never specified what it considers the size requirement of its ‘minimum credible’ deterrent to be.

Although India has the capacity to deploy nuclear weapons on aircraft and short and medium-range ballistic missiles at relatively short notice, it does not maintain, on a daily basis, its nuclear forces on a high state of alert. According to the Indian Ministry of Defence, this position is held in contrast to some other states that follow ‘doctrines or postures of launch on warning.’115

Security Drivers

India’s nuclear forces are primarily a response to two features of its security environment.

First, they are designed to provide a deterrent in relation to two nuclear-armed neighbours that are also in alliance with one another, namely Pakistan and China. India is involved in a long-running and well known rivalry with Pakistan which has resulted in three wars between the two countries and at least one other short military engagement of note. From the Indian perspective, Pakistan supports insurgent activity in the disputed and heavily Muslim populated region of Kashmir and is also heavily implicated in terrorist attacks on Indian soil. Conflict is never very far below the surface. The Indian relationship with China has improved in recent years but long-term, China is seen as India’s main strategic threat. The initial Indian nuclear programme in the 1960s was a response to defeat in the 1962 war with China and to China’s own nuclear test in 1964. India is therefore seriously concerned about the developments in the Chinese nuclear programme described earlier in this paper. It is also well aware that China and Pakistan cooperate closely on nuclear matters.

Second, the Indian nuclear programme reflects a perceived need for India to be self-reliant in terms of its security. India is not a member of any alliance or other grouping of states to which it could turn for deterrence or defence support in the face of a crisis.

From Here:

Clicky

[vasu_ray]

^ Pinpoint accuracy. Less than a meter.

maybe the query didn't come out right, if the fixed target is 300km away, what is the deviation of the actual flight path to the planned flight path during mid course given that it uses INS+GPS and flies supersonic

in the terminal stage it uses a seeker and resolves into sub meter accuracy, still there is an approach cone, how big is the base of this cone

[Kanson]

^^ I understood the query you raised. Officially there is no such info in the public domain. Considering the robustness of the missile and its past performance we can draw inference. In my view, to justify its high cost, it should to be able to offer advanced capabilities matching to its cost. I prefer conduits rather than cone. It should be able to seek targets hidden behind high raise structures or other features that obstruct natural course of movement.