India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[svinayak]

It is about geo politics. It is the Indo Pacific and India centric location which is a great advantage for powers such as US.

[Singha]

the existing JSF partners are probably looking to sneak away from their unit number commitments. they need high numbers to amortize the cost down to reasonable levels since the planned buys by their own services might not be as high as predicted.

[rajanb]

looks like consortium members are always sneaking away.

Does it have to do with the word consortium?

[Rakesh]

MMRCA: Why India opted for Europe and not US
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/mmrca ... 111102.htm

[sohels]

It is about geo politics.

Speaking of geopolitics:

Europe's High Price for China's Friendship

An end to a 22-year-old European embargo on arms sales to China, in place since the Tiananmen bloodshed of 1989, might seem like a more distant possibility. But Europe's once strident criticism of China's record on human rights is less vocal than it was. There were even reports in the European press at the end of 2010 that diplomatic chief Catherine Ashton had encouraged member states to revisit the embargo.

As Europe's debt crisis rolls on, and China's hand continues to strengthen, even the previously unthinkable could come onto the table.

Europe is cosying up to the Chinese dragon at its peril

The most serious issue likely to emerge before long is that of the longstanding European embargo on arms sales.
This is a longstanding Chinese grievance. Their weapons technology is relatively primitive. They want to upgrade it, using our expertise. The Americans – and the Russians – would be livid if any such thing happens. They regard China not merely as a trade rival, but as a potential enemy. They would be appalled if the country gains access to European arms and aerospace knowhow.

But in the new era of the crippled eurozone, anything seems possible. Global financial negotiation is always a tough, brutal business, and the Chinese are among the harshest bargainers. They do nothing from sentiment, everything from icy calculation of advantage. If they now become chief creditors of Europe and saviours of the eurozone we can be sure it will be in pursuit of strategic advantage – an advantage they are likely to get.

So it seems our vaunted European arms suppliers can avoid bankruptcy by going to bed with our primary adversary. Oh joy!

[svinayak]

the existing JSF partners are probably looking to sneak away from their unit number commitments. they need high numbers to amortize the cost down to reasonable levels since the planned buys by their own services might not be as high as predicted.

There are other things with India which special interest groups inside US want to get in

These special interest group want to create a psy ops with the'certain' (poorer) population of India about US power and omni presence. This will give advantage to several other groups who want to penetrate India

[sohels]

There are other things with India which special interest groups inside US want to get in

These special interest group want to create a psy ops with the'certain' (poorer) population of India about US power and omni presence. This will give advantage to several other groups who want to penetrate India

Scary! So are these 'other groups' also aiming for (ideological?) insemination, or will they be content with penetration onlee?

[svinayak]

Very funny I knew it would create khujli
Seriously - We have to be ruthless against all outsiders

[Rahul M]

<snip>
So 900+- Fishbed, 75 SU-27 and 105 J-11, 75 SU_30MKK and 70 J-10 in yellow
VS 190 Fishbed and incoming TEJAS, 69 MIG-29 and 51 Mirage 2000, 160 SU-30MKI
and 135 Jaguars plus 100 Mig-27s in green

Those numbers seem to favor the "pandas".
Although 160 MKI to 145+ MKK/J10 favors India;
and so does 235 Jags/Floggers to 180 J-11/Floggers.

The problem rests on those 900+ Fishbeds against 200 + Tejas on your side. *2
Of course, even going fom 126 to 180 MMRCA still does not give us an equality.
A finer analysis however shows that if the IAF needs to keep some squadrons
available for Pakistan, the Chinese need even more to counter the arc of possible
foes that includes Japan, South Korea and the US Pacific fleet.
In short, the number of threats is much greater for China than for India.

only 250 odd of the J-7's can be considered in service, rest have been grounded for all means and purposes. even for those, consider this http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 54#p454154
IOW, J-7 is irrelevant as far as India is concerned unless IAF is flying over tibet and even then not much. you missed the J-8's and JH-7's btw.

__________________
@ the above two posters, drop it. find other places to indulge in strat-easy-eek discussions.

[mikehurst]

@ sohels


E. Ohh please..... The chinese do not have money lying around to lift the Euro out of its debt-hole. And don’t tell me that China has this Himalayan mountain of reserves that it will employ to save the world or buy out Europe. It is not as if China has this trillion dollar reserve in fixed deposits, which it can break out and use. Further china is in a perfect pickle. The wave of money and quantitative easing that it released in 2008 has pumped in a lot of money and created a situation akin to the US economy, with recovery led by construction and real estate leading to over-capacity. Couple this with limits on lending by banks and you have this huge informal economy lending and borrowing to all classes including sub-prime categories. If you have the time, take a look at Dongfeng’ rated municipal bonds and their underlying assets [Dongfeng is one of the credit agencies of china]. And here is the problem, if Euro falls China is the worst hit. Except for Germany and Ireland every Euro country is a net importer of Chinese products. Rather than china saving Europe and EU leaders genuflecting before the Chinese court, they are mostly going to go and hold a gun against Chinese heads and extort money.
Even that will not help, as the problem with EU is more systematic. But China is not going to take over EU.
On a side note, imagine if China, becomes in future a good country and not interested in pursuing its middle kingdom role; or if it wants to settle its border problem with India. The most contentious issue is Aksai Chin. It would be interesting to see what would be our reaction if China offers to purchase the Aksai Chin areas that it already holds and settle the border dispute here.

[Cain Marko]

They are betting on "sticker shock" as one article pointed out. With right amounts of pressure applied at the right time and the right places, such a shock can be achieved. Finmin cries foul, not unlike the Airbus tanker deal, whole thing is redone, but this time with JSF, and voila IAF all of a sudden is operating Lightning IIs. If the US can give "ironclad" assurances about sanctions, and perhaps some Israeli tech can be substituted where necessary, I don't see it as a bad idea either - a stealth bird surely gives a solid tactical advantage.

All of this will be above board, there is a precedent for it, and would be completely normal. Fra/Ger will cry foul but law is law, budgetary requirements are buyer's prerogative. If a buyer decides that the price is too much after an offer from the seller has been made, buyer is well within rights to reject it. The sellers knew this even before participation. And Fra, which would be India's greatest concern cannot complain ala Korea and say that, "oh India succumbed to US pressure". Afterall, the US birds were eliminated well before Tiffy and Rafale

Of course, sweeteners will be given to both "losers", esp. to France, whose friendship India values considerably. Mitigate their hard feelings. Possibly a sub order, P17A order or even extry Mirage 2000s? Why would the M2k price even without weapons be so high otherwise? Load it up with enough micas, aasms and perhaps scalps and you will be pushing $ 5 billion. Perhaps even buy ex UAE M2ks thereby facilitating a Rafale sale with the oil rich sheikdom? Just saying folks - all within realm of possibility.

Lots of jhanjat and jhamela could still happen gentlejingos. Let us see.

CM

[Singha]

imo the J-8 will not be considered a frontline fighter anymore in plaaf and unlikely to see use in tibet. same for the J-7 except in point defence if nothing else can be spared

J-10 and Su27 for a2a sweeps and CAPs
su30 and jh7 for bombing and missile attacks
2nd artillery and other regiments with conventional SRBMs and GLCMs
lots of tube and big caliber rocket artillery albeit not state-of-art khanified 'smart' type
S-300 SAM units around major targets and along expected lines of ingress

thats the likely tag team we will have to face

in the blue corner:
M2K, Mig29,su30 for a2a sweeps/CAPs
su30, Jags, Mig27 for bombing and missile attacks
Bisons for point defence and ambushes along lines of ingress

mrca and tejas in numbers is atleast 5 yrs away so cannot be considered today. I think we barely have enough for a sound defence in east or north (not in both) and certainly not enough for a two front sino-pak war. thats because we lack the force multiplier tools of khan to fight effectively and calmly with less numbers but better weapons and C3I.

cases:
- only 3 awacs
- only 6 refuelers
- no JSTARS
- no constant IMINT feeds from sats or ghawk type uavs
- no PAC3 type SAMs at the moment (akash is on order, god knows when BDL will complete delivery)
- very few MLRS units
- the fleetwide datalink in IAF is still 'work in progress' (no one knows what its status or completion date)
- very limited PGM inventory in few 100s onlee.
- very limited nos of KH-xx strike missiles
- no growler capability to locate S300 sites for brahmos attacks
- very low nos of brahmos
- not enough war usage artillery ammo per reports
- no nirbhay for deep 700km logistical node strikes in tibet

[Singha]

ER-brahmos/nirbhay, Growler and JSTARS are a absolute must to gain traction.

israel some has kind of low end jstars on gulfstream jets and the UK had Astor with raytheon radar which I think suffered from defence cut. its time we invested in either or both since the big burger E8 is not-for-sale.

likewise for Growler our best bet is likely a modified Su30 (1 sqdn operating in groups of 2's embedded with other sqdns) with all the eqpt we can make or source. su30 has the endurance for this role with AAR.

[sohels]

@ sohels


E. Ohh please..... The chinese do not have money lying around to lift the Euro out of its debt-hole. And don’t tell me that China has this Himalayan mountain of reserves that it will employ to save the world or buy out Europe. It is not as if China has this trillion dollar reserve in fixed deposits, which it can break out and use.

Huh? China's reserves amount to $3.2 trillion today: Who wants to be a triple trillionaire?

So what else could China do with the money? Instead of the dollar, China might fancy the euro. China could buy all of the outstanding sovereign debt of Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Greece, solving the euro area’s debt crisis in a trice. And it would still have almost half of its reserves left over.

The debate is still on, but Chinese intervention seems increasingly likely, going by recent news reports.

On a side note, imagine if China, becomes in future a good country and not interested in pursuing its middle kingdom role; or if it wants to settle its border problem with India. The most contentious issue is Aksai Chin. It would be interesting to see what would be our reaction if China offers to purchase the Aksai Chin areas that it already holds and settle the border dispute here.

I don't know what to say.

Edit:

@ the above two posters, drop it. find other places to indulge in strat-easy-eek discussions.

^Oops, missed this. I thought what I posted earlier was relevant to this tender, in that procuring frontline fighters from Europe at this stage seems to be a huge gamble.

[shukla]

MMRCA: Why India opted for Europe and not US
Rediff

Clearing the air over why India [ Images ] has preferred Europe to the United States in the process of acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), top government sources said on Wednesday that it was to obtain the finest armaments for Indian armed forces.

"It was not a political or strategic choice, but simply the matter of getting the best weapons for our defence forces," the sources said.

"After the QRs, detailed technical evaluation of the various aircraft was done to assess which were the fighter planes that met our requirements and which didn't. It was a totally transparent process where both the buyer and the seller know exactly where they stand."

"According to the Defence Procurement Process (DPP), we ranked the aircraft and finally there were two that met our needs. Now commercial bids have been called for from both the aircraft manufacturers – Rafale and Eurofighter," sources added.

[Aditya_V]

<snip>
So 900+- Fishbed, 75 SU-27 and 105 J-11, 75 SU_30MKK and 70 J-10 in yellow
VS 190 Fishbed and incoming TEJAS, 69 MIG-29 and 51 Mirage 2000, 160 SU-30MKI
and 135 Jaguars plus 100 Mig-27s in green

Those numbers seem to favor the "pandas".
Although 160 MKI to 145+ MKK/J10 favors India;
and so does 235 Jags/Floggers to 180 J-11/Floggers.

The problem rests on those 900+ Fishbeds against 200 + Tejas on your side. *2
Of course, even going fom 126 to 180 MMRCA still does not give us an equality.
A finer analysis however shows that if the IAF needs to keep some squadrons
available for Pakistan, the Chinese need even more to counter the arc of possible
foes that includes Japan, South Korea and the US Pacific fleet.
In short, the number of threats is much greater for China than for India.

only 250 odd of the J-7's can be considered in service, rest have been grounded for all means and purposes. even for those, consider this http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 54#p454154
IOW, J-7 is irrelevant as far as India is concerned unless IAF is flying over tibet and even then not much. you missed the J-8's and JH-7's btw.

__________________
@ the above two posters, drop it. find other places to indulge in strat-easy-eek discussions.

Besides one must consider the shorts legs of the J-7 especially when operating from airbases in Tibet, The SU-30, 27 and J-10 will need to take off from Chengdu and refuel on the way. SO i doubt one can do a 1 on 1 comparison like PAF Vs IAF where both airforces have access to airbases on flat lands and the geographical restrictions are not so pronounced for both sides.

[Rahul M]

^^^ did you read the link ?

>> ^Oops, missed this. I thought what I posted earlier was relevant to this tender, in that procuring frontline fighters from Europe at this stage seems to be a huge gamble.

unfortunately there are others who have even more general views about what is considered relevant resulting in complete derailment of thread. more than one MRCA thread has been lost that way.
better not to have political discussions at all.

[Sanku]

looks like consortium members are always sneaking away.

Does it have to do with the word consortium?

=============================

The buggers are desperate to sell us their second rate useless maal and make it sound like they are doing a great favor on us unwashed heathens by letting us buy it.

Morons......

[Singha]

> The SU-30, 27 and J-10 will need to take off from Chengdu and refuel on the way.

they can and will easily operate from any base in tibet too.

some details from a tibetan exile page
http://tibet.net/en/index.php?id=154&rmenuid=11
There are six sub-military districts in the "Tibet Autonomous Region", having two independent infantry divisions, six border defence regiments, five independent border defence battalions, three artillery regiments, three engineers regiments, one main signal station and two signal regiments, three transport regiments and three independent transport battalions, four air force bases, two radar regiments, two divisions and a regiment of para-military forces (referred to as Di-fang Jun or "local army"), one independent division and six independent regiments of Peoples Armed Police. In addition, there are twelve units of what is known as the "second artillery (or missile) division". Out of the many air bases built, currently only four are in active use. The Peoples Armed Police are regular PLA troops, redesignated as such recently.

The frontline PLA troop concentrations in the "TAR" are stationed at Ruthok, Gyamuk (Chinese: Siqenho), Drongpa, Saga, Drangso (Dhingri), Gampa-la, Dromo, Tsona, Lhuntse Dzong, Zayul, etc. The second line of defence stations are concentrated at Shigatse, Lhasa, Nagchukha, Tsethang, Nangartse district, Gyamdha, Nyingtri, Miling, Powo Tramo, Tsawa Pomdha, Chamdo, etc. In addition, China regularly deploys the Sichuan-based 149 Airborne Division in the "TAR", as it did in the wake of the Tibetan demonstrations in Lhasa in 1987 and thereafter.

China has also shifted the headquarters of the Tibet Military District from Chengdu to a site located to the south-west of Lhasa, along the highway to Gongkar airport. Reports say that the Lhasa PLA headquarters - stretching for more than a kilometre in length - may also see a "part of Chinas South-Western command headquarters (the Chengdu military region) ... moving to Lhasa". The new complex, under construction, includes about forty three-storey buildings, each containing about forty rooms, and capable of accommodating up to 15,000 men.

The largest military bases in Amdo are in Xinning (Silling), Chabcha, and Golmud (Karmu). All three locations also have air force bases.

The once-deserted wasteland of Karmu has now been turned into a major military base. Located strategically to cover both Tibet and Eastern Turkestan, this region is connected by road, rail and air.

The Chinese military build-up in Kham and Ngapa regions is concentrated on Lithang, Karze, Tawu, Dartsedo, etc, in Kham, and Barkham in Ngapa. However, there are radar stations and dormant air strips at various strategic locations in Kham.

[Singha]

take a look at "linzhi airport" in google earth. located on banks of brahmaputra 300km NE of tezpur with 12000ft runway. these are their ALG type things but far more capable of sustaining big planes.

also Hotan NE of aksai chin...every runway I see is north of 3km and has ample spare apron areas nearby.

[mallikarjun]

Eurofighter typhoon out of Japan's F-X competition:

http://newpacificinstitute.org/jsw/?p=8631

Will it be out again at #MMRCA too??

[GeorgeWelch]

Anyway, two more days to go and we all will know that my prediction has come true

That's just when they open the bids. They then have to formally evaluate them, so at least another month.

[Philip]

An editorial in a national newspaper today warned the GOI about the imminent Chinese threat and an IDSA asessment that we should prepare for some kind if conflict in the near future.Now our already delayed MMRCA acquisition,plus the inordinate delay in matiruty and commissioning of our great hope,the LCA,has made it extremely neccessary for the MMRCA to be inducted at the earliest.As I've said many a time,the window of opportunity for the Paki-Sino axis is now,within the next two-three years before the modernisation palns of the armed forces begins to show.We are short on almost everything,aircraft,artillery,trainers,subs,and a swift "punishment" campaign by the PLA to impress upon the globe that China is top dog in ASia and second only to the US cannot be ruled out by the stream of anti-Indian propaganda emanating from Chinese publications and the media,including recent warnings to us about our Indo-Viet oil exploration agreements.

The sudden propaganda campaign for India to acquire the JSF-and that means abandoning the MMRCA acquisition,and waiting alomst an entire decade for the JSF to emerge,as I've shwon in previous posts,is sabotage of the national interest by the US and its lackeys at home.When not a single aircraft has been delivered to the USAF or any of its allies,how on earth is the JSF going to help India meet the "clear and present danger" today? moreover,are we to then abandon the FGFA programme,where we are co-developers with Russia and not mere purchasers of the JSF ,a programme in which we have absolutely NO say in the design and development of the aircraft and where we will be denied-as even Britain has been,access to the key stealth technologies!Moreover,the price of the more capable FGFA is estaimated at $100m apiece as against the current estimate of a JSF at $125m.

The timing of the JSF offer when the opening of the tenders-the last stage in the evaluation of the two contestants,is not a coincidence.It is a blatant attempt to sabotage the country's desperate need to reinforce the assets of the IAF at a crucial dangerous time when regional tensions will only escalate after the US retreats from Afghanistan,on the promise of an aircraft which will arrive at the end of the decade,when its own allies are looking for alternatives becauise of delays and ultra cost,that too at twice the cost of an SU-30MKI and almost twice of either of the two MRCAs on offer.This insidious attempt to sabotage the contest must be officially put down immediately.The only worthwhile JSF acquisition would be the STOVL version for the IN,and that version is already in danger of being dumped,because of even more delays in development of it,cancellation of the RN requirement as only the USMC seems to be interested in it and producing about 150 only would be exceptionally costly. In any case even if India wanted the STOVL version,we would require only about 40-60 at the max.For now,we have the 40+ MIG-29Ks being indcuted which will serve us very well for the current decade and operhaps a STOVL version or even a stealth UCAV under development would be the next type for the IN to acquire.RIP JSF.

PS:Japan wants to build its own stealth bird and has even started on formulating 6th-gen concepts.It will most likely acquire either the F-15SE in the interim or wait until the JSF finally arrives.It can wait because it has a healthy number of 4th-gen aircraft in hand and is only looking towards the future not immediate acquisitions as India is doing.The J-20's arrival is spurring it to develop a counter on its own.

[Taygibay]

@ Rahul_M

only 250 odd of the J-7's can be considered in service, rest have been grounded for all means and purposes. even for those, consider this http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 54#p454154
IOW, J-7 is irrelevant as far as India is concerned unless IAF is flying over tibet and even then not much. you missed the J-8's and JH-7's btw.

Thnx for the reference, Rahul.

But I did not forget the J-7/J-8, look :

including 800~1,000 J-7 (MiG-21 Fishbed) and J-8II fighters,

I just bunched them up as about 900 fishbed variants
Sorry for not being clear on that.

Thnx to Singha too for the following posts.
I will look deeper into those but already
trust your answer to be correct.
There are other parts of an air defence
that should come into the computation.
That's why Spectra's SEAD abilities should
count in favor of the Raffy, IMHO.

And yes Cain Marko, the price could be a
problem but it does include ToT which the
F-35 still does not cover considering what
happened to the UK. It does remain true
that the tender could be dropped if the two
makers cannot or will not go low enough.

The US today offered India partnership in the development of the world's most advanced flying machine, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Gee, the F-22's conception team might take exception to that ...


Good day all, Tay.

[arthuro]

Rafale is swiss airforce choice when compared to the Typhoon and Gripen :

The desired plane


Basler Zeitung , Nov 3

The French Rafale is the aircraft that want the Swiss military pilots, and the fighter jet from manufacturer Dassault has clearly performed best at the flight tests . Its disadvantage: Although President Sarkozy abroad at almost every opportunity for lobbying the aircraft, the French were not able to export a single machine. Possible partners are therefore strongly in the development of the jet depends on the wishes of the French Air Force and Navy. Despite the absence of orders to keep the production going abroad, the French government decided last year to order machines earlier than planned in the service. Of the total ordered 286 jets around 100 have been so far delivered . In Switzerland, the French hope for sales success, because Dassault knows well the local air force and defense industry since the time of Mirage [III]. The comparatively small number of jets and flying hours, according to experts could cause relatively high operating and maintenance costs.
[...]

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Po ... y/17131363

[member_20033]

I guess the aim for offering F 35 is not to spoil the MMRCA deal but to disturb India's FGFA partnership with Russia. Either they are eyeing our budge of 30 billion to sell us FGFA or they dont want India & Russia to develop FGFA.

[Pratyush]

More likely to kill the AMCA project. As the FGFA is in a different category.

[Taygibay]

If the both price bids are too high and the tender dropped,

instead of the unproven Lightning II,
http://defensetech.org/2011/11/01/penta ... -training/

and having read my fellow forumers' input on PLA vs IAF
may I suggest that other French export :
http://www.armyrecognition.com/armoured ... on_uk.html

Just think how many of those you could get for 15 billion dolllars?
Enough to equip the Mountain Strike Corps huh

[GeorgeWelch]

As I've said many a time,the window of opportunity for the Paki-Sino axis is now,within the next two-three years

If that's your timeframe, it doesn't matter because none of the contestants will be delivered and trained by then.

has made it extremely neccessary for the MMRCA to be inducted at the earliest.

However if you do need a plane that is ready ASAP, then clearly the SH is the only choice.

When not a single aircraft has been delivered to the USAF

False.

moreover,are we to then abandon the FGFA programme

No. That is completely independent of the MRCA and/or F-35.

The timing of the JSF offer when the opening of the tenders-the last stage in the evaluation of the two contestants,is not a coincidence.

Of course not, it's the last chance to sway India's opinion before they sign a contract with the other guys.

It is a blatant attempt to sabotage the country's desperate need blah blah blah

It's a blatant attempt to sell more planes, just like the Gripen's continuing campaign.

Where was your railing against Sweden for continuing to push the Gripen-NG after it had been eliminated?

[Ganesh_S]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... 9B20111103

The Indian government will open bids on Friday for a $11 billion contract to buy fighter jets for India's air force, a defence ministry source said, moving closer to awarding one of the world's biggest arms contracts to one of two European groups.

[Ganesh_S]

"A meeting is scheduled tomorrow for the bids," the source told Reuters by phone, adding that it may take two-three weeks to pick a winner.

Sigh of relief ! Intrestingly this was conveyed to Reuters.. Antony on full swing i guess. Can the punters start swinging now

[AmitG]

We have been talking about JSF killing AMCA. But as far as I know, AMCA is still a plane on paper. We are still talking about FOC for LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2 is still in the pipeline. We have imported AJTs and also are looking for importing basic trainers. Our indigenous efforts at developing the Kaveri engine have still not borne fruits. We needed an external consultant. And on top of this, the red-tapism and slow moving procurement process puts the nation's security at risk. MMRCA is an example of that.

I also do not understand that if we will reject both Rafale and Typhoon because of the price, then what was the need of going through such an elaborate process. I sincerely hope that MoD selects one of them after such a gruelling long procurement process.

On other hand,aircraft design and development is a very complex process. We have also not followed the Chinese short-cuts of reverse engineering.

I believe what we are good at is - Avionics, software, possibly Radar and aircraft assembly. In my opinion (and I am a newbie here), a better option would have been to work with a partner say US, take one of their aircrafts as base, fit in our own avionics, software, spend efforts on developing an AESA radar and then manufacture a large number of such aircrafts. Su-30MKI is a very good example of this. And then enhance the aircraft further. Why not take an F-16 and fit it to our requirements. Such aircraft may not be exported to other countries in order to keep the partner countries interests.

[Taygibay]

That is a brutally honest assesment, AmitG.
Congrats on the honesty.

I agree to a lot of it but the paper AMCA should be protected.

The LCA is knowing what I would term "normal" teething pains.
Developing an aero-military industry is very difficult.

As in many other similar fields, you need a big amount of experience,
lots of compiled results and understanding.
This experience is building up with all the work locally now
and there is no way stopping those efforts would make sense save
if the money was strictly not available.
The timeline also has to be kept in mind as we all know that the AMCA
will anyway be late.
Having already discussed a possible cooperation about the AMCA,
I would understand being junior partner on a new design with a good planemaker.
Even the US since you said there was to be no export.

Just keep a design bureau in function on a difficult project though.
Simply assemblying won't do that if the AMCA is dropped.

Good day all, Tay.

[SaiK]

it is amazing how you guys change the topic of this thread 'cause of yankee influence.

[Cosmo_R]

We have been talking about JSF killing AMCA. But as far as I know, AMCA is still a plane on paper. We are still talking about FOC for LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2 is still in the pipeline. We have imported AJTs and also are looking for importing basic trainers. Our indigenous efforts at developing the Kaveri engine have still not borne fruits. We needed an external consultant. And on top of this, the red-tapism and slow moving procurement process puts the nation's security at risk. MMRCA is an example of that.

I also do not understand that if we will reject both Rafale and Typhoon because of the price, then what was the need of going through such an elaborate process. I sincerely hope that MoD selects one of them after such a gruelling long procurement process.

On other hand,aircraft design and development is a very complex process. We have also not followed the Chinese short-cuts of reverse engineering.

JSF killing AMCA is simple matter of funding. You get the JSF and there are no more funds for the AMCA.

With few exceptions, the red tapism you refer to is PSUs . The same disease that afflicts the Canara Bank (for example) --the customer be damned, also afflicts HAL/BHEL/Mazgaon Docks you name it. As tsarkar has pointed out elsewhere, you never get hauled up at a PSU if you did nothing. Only if you did and it went awry.

Private sector participation is no panacea however, as the US DOD will tell you. LM is now fighting the Pentagon over overages and delays. Who knows how much is scope creep and how much is LM's overpromise? .

As to the bid openings tomorrow and sticker shock and awe, the whole process will still not have been as long or grueling as the IA's efforts to acquire a 155MM towed gun (24 years now).

On Chinese 're engineering' . GE's real value add is what it has learned to NOT do. For example, the single crystal blade development was fraught with problems. A significant number cracked but they could not figure out what the problem was for the longest time despite revisiting all aspects of design and production. Then one day, one of the engineers for the F series of engines was passing by the loading dock where the manufactured blisks were delivered for integration. He noticed they were being tossed (in boxes) onto the floor. When he got them to put the boxes down carefully all the cracking stopped. GE's Knowledge Base manual is one of its most valuable IP items.

[SaiK]

Folks, the bids are to be opened today: Nov 4th! so, let us take this JSF out of here.

--

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=5541145
The ministry completed the formalities last week and sent letters Monday to representatives of Eurofighter and Rafale for opening the bids on the afternoon of Friday, November 4. The representatives would authenticate the tender packets as their own and as submitted by them earlier, in the presence of senior ministry officials, and then they would be opened by one of the designated officers.

Each bid would have a Summary Sheet and the Best and Final Offer, or BAFO as it is called, and both the bids would be read out to the Rafale and Eurofighter representatives. The ministry officials present would represent the the acquistion, technical and defence finance departments.

Although the ministry's initial assessment was that the deal could be worth around $10 billion, the Rafale and Eurofighter should cost somewhere around $15 billion.

It is perhaps safe to assume that if the difference between the two bids is 15 per cent or more, then the lower bidder would ultimately be the winner. But if the difference is only marginal, or around four to five percent, then the associated costs on spares, tooling, maintenance and operating costs per hour in terms of fuel, manpower, maintenance and lifecycle would play a role in determining the winner.

In any case, the initial costs, which include spares and support for the first two years, as well as the associated costs would be computed and only then would the winner be declared.

Well placed sources told India Strategic defence magazine (www.indiastrategic.in) that it should take a month or so to do the necessary calculations. The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne, has has also expressed this hope.

Notably, the financial bids are valid only till December 2011, and if there is a delay by chance, then the two companies, French Dassault for Rafale and European consortium Cassidian for Eurofighter, would have to renew the validity of their bids. But that is unlikely to happen.

The IAF has been in a hurry for several years to replace its inventory of old Soviet Migs, but it was only in 2007 that a Request for Proposals (RFP), or tender, was issued to these two European companies as well as US Lockheed Martin for the F-16 Super Viper and Boeing for F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab for the Gripen and Russia?s Rosoboronexport for Mig 29M2, later designated Mig 35.

The IAF conducted extensive flight and weapon trials within India and the country of manufacture. According to Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, who retired a couple of months ago as the IAF chief after overseeing the exercise, all the aircraft were good but the Rafale and Eurofighter scored the maximum points.

The tender is for 126 aircraft, with an option for 63 more. It mandates two years support, cost of weapons, transfer of some critical technologies and 50 per cent of the value of the tender to be reinvested back in India in defence-related industries. The winner has to supply 18 aircraft in fly-away condition and the rest as kits and parts, some of which would be progressively made in India.

It would be up to the winner to choose any public or private sector company for collaborations but the final integration of the aircraft and systems would be done by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, India's premier aerospace state-run company.

Nonetheless, both Dassault and Cassidian, a subsidiary of EADS, have tied up with Indian industrial houses like Tatas, Mahindras, Larsen and Toubro as well as HAL, BEML and so on.

Senior and younger officers of the IAF are looking forward to the arrival of the new combat jets, particularly as the Sukhoi SU-30MKI is the only aircraft in IAF?s inventory which can be described as modern. All the other aircraft are 25 or more years old and are being upgraded for a life extension of 10-15 years.

[koti]

IMO it is too optimistic on our part to expect the FGFA to be on par with F-35.

FGFA might be a better aircraft with its greater maneuverability, endurance, range, payload and price but F-35 still will be a better platform in terms of sensor fusion, weapons etc.
I am not willing to ignore the 3-4 decade experience the F-35 has got against the FGFA unless I add in UFO's.

[koti]

X post

Go easy on me.

Does the idea of 126 EF/Rafale + (200-126) F-35 have any merits against an outright purchase of 200 EF/Rafale.

Exactly where is the money going to come for that kind of purchase without compromising on other budgetary essentials , in the end such imports will keeps us in the number one list of arms importing country for the next decade , quite sure if the current import will keep us there for a long time to come.

Government was ready to sanction(was communicated to IAF) funds for upto 200 A/c irrespective of the money involved for the MMRCA.
It was said here that the costs of EF can soar near to that of F-35 sometime back. So ordering a few squadrons should not increase the budget beyond certain level.

Finances apart, what sort of a benefit can this sort of a purchase add to the IAF. IMO this is a lot more future proof then going for 200 MMRCA.


PS: I corrected the quoted numbers.

[Philip]

GW,no JSF's have been delivered and are operational with the USAF.All estimates/reports of the aircraft's arrival say that there is now a two-year delay and that the actual cost per piece has not been fixed because development has yet to conclude.Flight trials aretaking place including that of the STOVL version.

No diatribe against the Gripen because the IAF have said that they wanted technically the best aircraft. The two newest are the Rafale and the Typhoon and in the light of the PRC aggro,a larger twin-engined aircraft is preferable to a single-engined fighter which is why they were shortlisted.Unfortunately for the US,the F-16 and F-18 basic designs belong to the '70s/80s era.What the aviation world has been saying is that lumping so many differing varities of aircraft,from a light-weight Gripen to a heavy-weight Typhoon has been a mistake. Here the JSF is exactly in the same boat as say the IL-476 in the transport requirement.On the verge of being produced,but not yet, and the readily available C-17 has been chosen instead.Once more for the record,the TOT that we are getting from the Russians will never be matched by the US with the JSF,as they have denied even their closest ally Britain,full TOT to its deep annoyance,one reason why the UK has dumped the STOVL version of the JSF,ironical, as it was Britain which first gave the US the entire Harrier VSTOL technology which allowed McDonnell-Douglas to build hundreds of them for the USMC.

The JSF being single-engined will in many areas of performance,will be inferior to the larger FGFA,which some say will be performance wise in between the Raptor and JSF.

[GeorgeWelch]

GW,no JSF's have been delivered and are operational with the USAF.

You said none had been delivered, which is false.

They are not operational because squadrons haven't been built-up and testing hasn't been completed, but they are functional right now.

They could go into combat and shoot their guns and fire their missiles right now. Of course the USAF isn't ready to use them yet, but fully functional production jets have been delivered.

No diatribe against the Gripen because the IAF have said that they wanted technically the best aircraft.

So you aren't complaining about the Gripen because it isn't the best but you are complaining about the F-35 because it is the best? Is that what you're saying? I can hardly imagine you're saying the reverse . . .

Here the JSF is exactly in the same boat as say the IL-476 in the transport requirement.On the verge of being produced,but not yet,

Not even close. The F-35 production line is running right now and delivering planes. The Il-476 line . . .

and the readily available C-17 has been chosen instead.

Another difference is the jump in capability. What does the Il-476 offer over the C-17? Nothing (except possibly a lower price). In other words, delaying doesn't gain you anything. What does the F-35 offer over any of the legacy planes in the MRCA competition? A whole heck of a lot. Thus accepting a small delay for much improved future capability may be worthwhile.

Once more for the record,the TOT that we are getting from the Russians will never be matched by the US

You're already getting Russia's best with the FGFA.

with the JSF,as they have denied even their closest ally Britain,full TOT to its deep annoyance,one reason why the UK has dumped the STOVL version of the JSF

Completely false, they dumped the F-35B for the F-35C, and that was because of bring-back capability and had nothing to do with TOT.

The JSF being single-engined will in many areas of performance,will be inferior to the larger FGFA

Who's comparing it to the FGFA? We're comparing it to the other MRCA contenders.