India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Austin]

On one field that Eurofighter Excels is A2A combat.

Eurofighter boasts Typhoon reign over F-35

Eurofighter, however, claims the F-35 lacks all-aspect, very low observable stealth, and is vulnerable to detection and defeat by non-stealthy opponents.

In an internal simulation series, Eurofighter found that four Typhoons supported by an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) defeated 85% of attacks by eight F-35s carrying an internal load of two joint direct attack munitions (JDAM) and two air-to-air missiles, Penrice says.

According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of the future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.

[manum]

supporting is something different and buying a machine is a totally different thing, because at the end of day some of my tax money will be involved in this purchase and If someone is buying in this case GOI, I want it to be the best.
So everyone who supports Rafale, I did not call them stupid I myself love Rafale a very capable machine may be right now more or less same capability as Typhoon but for how many years will it remain so and yes I will call those people stupid who will make this decision to buy Rafale because

Revenue of Indian Government is around 200 Billion $ out of which we already spend close to 40 Billion on defense so we spend 20% of our Income on Defense so if 20% of my Tax Money goes to fund the defense projects and as a citizen of poor country who already spends 20 Percent on defense I dont want it to increase to more than 20% in coming years so even if a single extra percentage can be saved on upgrading which definitely will be saved because of distributed funding structure of typhoon and that same saved spend on more civilian development projects I will say money well spend.

Its called breathless uttering of cooked up logic...

[Tumba]

supporting is something different and buying a machine is a totally different thing, because at the end of day some of my tax money will be involved in this purchase and If someone is buying in this case GOI, I want it to be the best.
So everyone who supports Rafale, I did not call them stupid I myself love Rafale a very capable machine may be right now more or less same capability as Typhoon but for how many years will it remain so and yes I will call those people stupid who will make this decision to buy Rafale because

Revenue of Indian Government is around 200 Billion $ out of which we already spend close to 40 Billion on defense so we spend 20% of our Income on Defense so if 20% of my Tax Money goes to fund the defense projects and as a citizen of poor country who already spends 20 Percent on defense I dont want it to increase to more than 20% in coming years so even if a single extra percentage can be saved on upgrading which definitely will be saved because of distributed funding structure of typhoon and that same saved spend on more civilian development projects I will say money well spend.

Its called breathless uttering of cooked up logic...

thanks for your opinion buddy
I respect your opinion. I would love to hear your not cooked up logic and you know what the same cooked up logic will be applied by GOI to chose the planes out of two strange right?

[svinayak]

I think its important to understand that we are buying a leverage till 2030...by buying Rafale or typhoon, Upgrading Mirage increasing the number of MKI's and FGFA...

So whatever the cry over cost is...It'll fade away when we'll see investment in longer term i.e. we are stuffing our food scaffolds for a long R&D ride in the ocean...It will be pointless that in 2025-35 we don't have our own range of fleets, so Its better to have all the collections to remain in peace till 2025-30...costs money but works in long shot...

In 30 years India will need a robust aviation industry which can manufacture the entire fighter prgram from scratch of the latest generation. Industry should support a high support base to the Indian defence force.
This is the real objective of the current decision

[manum]

^^ Yea...This is what I was trying to sum up.

[GopiD]

How is this for ANTI-AMERICANISM.....

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... t-pakistan

US FORCES HAD ORDERS TO TARGET INDIAN ARMY IN 1971

The documents reveal that Indira Gandhi went ahead with her plan to liberate Bangladesh despite inputs that the Nixon Administration had kept three battalions of Marines on standby to deter India, and that the American aircraft carrier USS Enterprise had orders to target Indian Army facilities.

The documents show how Americans held back communication regarding Pakistan's desire to surrender in Dhaka by almost a day.


That the American establishment had mobilized their 7th Fleet to the Bay of Bengal, ostensibly to evacuate US nationals, is public knowledge. But the declassified papers show Washington had planned to use the 7th Fleet to attack the Indian Army.

They also show that Nixon administration kept arming Pakistan despite having imposed an embargo on providing both Islamabad and New Delhi military hardware and support.


Sorry for the OT, but couldn't resist the J-35 rah rah here.......

[Rahul M]

Tumba, the smart thing would have been to acknowledge the mistake and not make this an ego-fight. in trying to defend the indefensible you are making things worse for yourself, insinuating that no one understands or cares about India's development needs but you. let me just say you are skating on very thin ice.
my 2 cents.

[Tumba]

Tumba, the smart thing would have been to acknowledge the mistake and not make this an ego-fight. in trying to defend the indefensible you are making things worse for yourself, insinuating that no one understands or cares about India's development needs but you. let me just say you are skating on very thin ice.
my 2 cents.

with all due respect sir, I am respecting the opinion of my fellow BR members and the things i have written here in these posts and cooked up logic that I came up with is the exact thing that my cooked up government is using to come up with the final selection and I have never written that i care less or more than anyone else on India's development needs I am just saying that with a few billion saved on further investments in chosen fighter we may pour that money into AMCA development or some civilian project, because these fighters will be in inventory till 2040 or more and they will need continuous funding to keep pace in a space where there will be 5G/ UCAV and modern air defenses.

[Katare]

Rahul,
Either participate in discussion or moderate don't mix the two and threaten me with ban when you loose the argument.

I have never argued with moderators just because i realize it is very difficult job being performed for free. If as an moderator you have an issue with my line of argument than say so or stop trolling and making false accusations.

[Rahul M]

as the mil forum's most active mod I try to ensure a certain level of informed debate, if that goes against the freedom of speech to spout nonsense, so be it.
BR newbies do not get any leeway when it comes to lack of information, there is no reason why the standards should be lowered for you just because you registered earlier.

I wasn't debating, I was trying to be considerate and let you know exactly why your comments were not acceptable, if you would rather have a warning ban routine with no explanations all you got to do is ask, it is easier on me as well. but then do not complain when it happens.
cheers.

p.s. if you have problems with my moderation take it up with the owners, do not derail this thread with your lectures.

[Sri]

Tumba Jee and Katare Jee, Please read the thread from the beginning. You are derailing the thread. If you likey f35 please write on other threads. Unfortunately since IAF has narrowed down on 2 European fighters, it will be best if we only discuss them.

Also: Pi$$ing of mods is not a good idea... really... No Democracy on BRF I tell you...

[koti]

On one field that Eurofighter Excels is A2A combat.

Eurofighter boasts Typhoon reign over F-35

Eurofighter, however, claims the F-35 lacks all-aspect, very low observable stealth, and is vulnerable to detection and defeat by non-stealthy opponents.
............................

What I am little ignorant is: apart from the better engines and bigger AESA, what sets apart EF in being superior to F-16 or Rafale for A2A? I mean are we talking about weapons or datalinks or..??

TIA.

[Sri]

^^^ Koti Jee, I have been wondering the same. Unfortunately, publicly available sources are almost always rigged (one sided). I hope some garus shed light on em...

[GeorgeWelch]

A sincere piece of advise - please give examples which are contextual to the scenario at hand. This is IAF we are taking about and not USAF/USN.

I gave several examples of what the IAF COULD have done if the situation was desperate.

Namely purchasing more Mirages and MiGs or even MKIs.

Also planned retirements can be delayed.

So, your example of 10K hours upgrade on SH is a non-starter.

No, you're missing the point.

The 10K hour upgrade is an example of what true desperation looks like. It is a very non-cost-effective upgrade to squeeze out just a few more hours out of an airframe to keeping it from falling from the sky. It isn't about modernization, it's about simply being able to keep flying.

If the IAF was in as desperate situation as people are claiming, they would be doing similar. But they aren't. That's the point.

Guess what, IIRC, we even tried to to buy ex-UAE M2K-5 but I think the deal fell of because of money factor.

Which is hilarious compared the money they're about to spend.

Speaking of which, I think they are still for sale . . .

So, others are not just regular upgrade - but an effort to keep the current fleet as viable and modern as possible

Sorry, that is the very definition of a standard mid-life upgrade.

By comparison the 10K hour upgrade effort focused solely on structural soundness to eke out a couple more years to bridge the gap to F-35.

the UAE M2K-5 may still end up with IAF, you never know. So, lets keep this canard of IAF willing to wait.

Exactly, the IAF had and still has many viable options besides blowing a huge wad of cash on obsolete fighters.

[GeorgeWelch]

2. Unit cost, as of 2011, is estimated between $110 Million and $150 Million (push it to $200 Million by FOC).

Nice try, but prices go down, not up, as production ramps.

http://defense.aol.com/2011/11/01/f-35- ... ng-steeply

the plane that left Fort Worth on Wednesday cost $111 million, roughly half the price the government paid for each of the first two LRIP F-35As

3. It can carry only a tonne of payload internally (Compromising stealth with regular payloads of over a tonne).

2 tons + 2 missiles

Which is 2 tons more than 4th gen fighters can carry stealthily.

4. It uses the same stealth coating as the F-22, which is notorious for its failure rate in tropical conditions!!!

Completely false, it uses a new coating which is far more durable and maintainable.

6. IIRC, a Paki pilot mentioned in a news article that their F-16s were bugged and had remote kill switches (Sure IAF won't get bugged/compromised jets from the US?)

And if you read the article you would realize said 'pilot' had not a clue what he was talking about.

Just like those reports that Stingers would flash a 'not allowed' message if trying to target US planes. Stingers don't have screens. Oops.

[GeorgeWelch]

Tx.Viv for posting the relevant quotes from US sources.When I mentioned them, I was "making them up"!

Because you were and are.

The quotes clearly show that second and third class JSFs were planned for lesser nations

No they don't. They show some countries won't be able to modify certain features. That doesn't mean they're getting lesser versions.

There is no room in the IAF's hangar therefore for the JSF which comes in at 24K prices.

What do you call MRCA prices?

Just because we have selected the two aircraft on technical grounds,there is no reason to buy them at solid gold rates.

Wow! We actually agree on something.

[kelesis]

According to french serious newspaper La Tribune, quoting "industrial sources", the Rafale came first in technical evaluations by IAF and have the edge on technical and operational ground. EADS made huge sacrifices to make its plane just a bit more expensive than Rafale.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... -inde.html

We'll know more in about one week...

[koti]

Pogula wrote:
2. Unit cost, as of 2011, is estimated between $110 Million and $150 Million (push it to $200 Million by FOC).


Nice try, but prices go down, not up, as production ramps.

Do you intend to say that there are no enhancements from F35's IOC till it reaches FOC?
Or am I wrong here?

[GeorgeWelch]

Fully capable in what way?

Carrying out the mission assigned to it.

It didn't meet the IAF's requirements !

Again certain arbitrary requirements whose actual importance is somewhat dubious.

There's no reason for it to take 36 months if India wanted it sooner.

Boeing is on record as having stated that the first deliveries would be made 36 months after the deal was signed.

Because that's what the deal calls for.

Yet, 36 months was the minimum.

Clearly not. They delivered the first Australian SH in 27 months so obviously faster is possible.

So accelerating to supersonic 50% faster is a minor advantage? If that is so, why is the F-22's performance touted so much? I don't care about why the USN didn't show any interest in it.

Why not? Because it doesn't fit your narrative? They are the biggest operator of it, shouldn't their opinion on the matter be worth something?

I could simply say "Why don't you go sell this crap of the non-importance of kinematics to the USAF who seemed quite enamoured with their F-22s?"..

The USAF is far more excited about the F-22's stealth than they are about it's kinematics (although obviously they love those too).

it seems like you're tailoring your argument based on the lack of kinematic performance of the F/A-18, ignoring what else it represents- on a hot and humid day at a high altitude airbase, an F/A-18 with lower thrust is likely to have lower payload and fuel capacity than a Typhoon.

Completely false. The supersonic acceleration issues are partly due to the wing being optimized for low-speed operations (like landing on a carrier . . .). And the SH's engines are already more powerful than either of the euro's. Strong engines + wing optimized for low-speed lift = great liftoff capability in hot and high conditions.

So the answer is that because the USN had no other choice to make- it was a captive customer.

Of course they had a choice, they could have ordered the Rafale

Filling numbers is a first priority- but ToT is a big priority as well. And we all know that the F-35 will not match the Euro offers in this matter.

Another falsehood. The SH offer met the ToT requirements, there's no reason the F-35 couldn't too. If nothing else, they could offer the exact same ToT you would have gotten with the SH.

Nor will it be available quicker than the Euro fighters.

That's a given . . .

Nor will we have as much autonomy on how we operate it and against whom

False

If India ordered 126+, they would be a full partner.

Says who? is that an official LM line or just something you're saying?

Partner is based on money invested. Buying that many jets automatically puts you at the table.

Just pointing out the cold, hard facts. The IAF is blowing a ton of money on a fighter that will soon be obsolete.

I want to be polite, but this is absurd nonsense. I wonder if you'd said that if the SHornet was selected. I know the answer and hence your statement is just that- nonsense.

If you had been paying attention, you would know that I've ALWAYS questioned need for the MRCA, BUT that IF you were going to go forward with it, it would make sense to go with the SH as it would be available soonest and cheapest.

You have GOT to be joking.

The MRCA is going to be a 15 year process to add 126+ jets. When it became clear the F-35 was going to be delayed, the US acted quickly and ordered another 124 SHs. THAT sort of swift and decisive action is what happens when there's actually an urgent need. A 15-year process for an 'urgent' need indeed . . .

Processes that work in the US doesn't necessarily work in India. Its slower, there's more red-tape and there was a competition to be carried out- the USN's job was a lot simpler. Simply buy more of a fighter that it already operates.

The IAF had and has the same option!

They could have bought more Mirages. They could have bought more MiGs. They HAVE repeatedly bumped up orders for MKIs. Those didn't seem to run into any red-tape. So don't say you can't do it, you ALREADY HAVE when the situation warranted it. And apparently they don't feel the situation warrants any great haste in this case.

the MRCA was a lot more convoluted, with evaluations, in-country and out-of country, RFIs, RFPs, changing DPPs, and all that.

Exactly, it could have been streamlined a ton if it had to be.

It was a GoI decision, not an IAF one.

If the need was urgent, the IAF would have sold the GoI on the need. They didn't. That should tell you something.

Read up more on the MRCA competition itself to see how the IAF's request to buy Mirages was turned down on the premise that a competition was required for such a large order.

How much of a competition was there for the MKI?

[GeorgeWelch]

Do you intend to say that there are no enhancements from F35's IOC till it reaches FOC?
Or am I wrong here?

No enhancements that will greatly drive the unit price up. It is fully complete with all sensors and avionics, most of what remains is software work.

I'm not saying there won't be anything that will cost a little bit extra, but that amount is going to be DWARFED by the savings in improved manufacturing process.

Already they've cut unit production prices from over $220 million to $111 million. That's a massive drop and they still have a lot of work yet to do to improve the manufacturing process.

[arunsrinivasan]

@George, re the IAF - MOD decision making I dont think you understand how the Indian bureaucracy works - I would recommend watching or better still reading Yes Minister / Yes Prime Minister if you haven't already

[arthuro]

Rafale and Eurofighter side by side in India
La Tribune , Nov 6


Commercial offerings of both companies would be very close to each other.

Manufacturers of both fighters still competing to equip the 126 aircraft the Indian Air Force (Air Force), Rafale ( Dassault Aviation ) and Eurofighter ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica), are engaged in a big commercial battle to reign in the Indian skies. According to several sources, the offers of Dassault Aviation and the European consortium would be very close to each other. What is already a big surprise, the Rafale was generally much cheaper (10% to 15% on average) than the Eurofighter in previous tenders in which they were competing one against the other.

The three industrial partners in the Eurofighter program would therefore have made great efforts on the price of the unit to stay competitive with the Rafale [...]. "They have accepted monstrous sacrifices," says one industrialist. "The two manufacturers will see much clearer at the end of the week after a week of work and comparison of the bids," said another industrialist interviewed by "La Tribune" (see below) . However, even if the commercial offerings are really close, the Rafale keep an advantage operationally and technically. Trials of the Indian Air Force placed (it) ahead of Eurofighter.

Colossal challenge

Another trend that seems to emerge is that both offers are superior to the original budget agreed by New Delhi, estimated at $ 11 billion (8 billion euros). According to the Indian press, quoting an anonymous government officials, the Ministry of Defence would have almost doubled it to about $ 20 billion (14.5 billion euros), in particualr to take into account related contracts to support the aircrafts.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... -inde.html

[Philip]

GW,When I post/quote from AWST,etc.,"I am making them up".Hideous logic of yours.I suggest that you wait for your "Thanksgiving turkey",the JSF and buy it some years from now,while we let the IAF get on wiht the job of choosing which of the two EU birds they find suitable on all counts,including price.If they don't like the price and tell us so,opening up the whole game once again,then we can all pitch for our fav. baby!

Webmasters/Moderators,let's put the JSF to sleep,or in another thread please.Right now we are at the tape in the race between the two Eurobirds.Let's discuss thei merits.capabilities only,as the title of this thread says.

[chaanakya]

Lets say its between rafale and EF, where does F35 fit in? Its not even in the reckoning. Any American fighter plane to become mainstay of IAF , it would have to bridge the huge trust deficit notwithstanding few morsels of orders that India has thrown unkil's way.JMT

So right now we should be discussing financial bid of the two. I understand that Rafale is slightly lower per unit cost basis. But financial bid would be bench-marked on so many parameters before real L1 emerges. And no, I don 't think order would be split. It would be either of the two.

So what is the verdict? Rafale or EF

[GeorgeWelch]

GW,When I post/quote from AWST,etc.,"I am making them up".Hideous logic of yours.

The problem is the quote doesn't say what you claim it does.

Your interpretation is completely fallacious and made up.

[GeorgeWelch]

Lets say its between rafale and EF, where does F35 fit in?

Because the huge cost makes one question if this is the right path to continue down.

Perhaps better to look at cheaper gap-filler options and then spend the money that would have gone to MRCA on F-35 or something.

And no, I don 't think order would be split. It would be either of the two.

Absolutely, splitting between the EF and Rafale would be the worst of all possible decisions.

[Sri]

This thread is Hijaked onlee.... Why do we have to discuss F35, when it's not even being considered?

[nash]

we don't require someone who have hole in his heart, so kick that weak hearted one from here ...

[Austin]

For those who vouch or oppose the F-35 this should be an informative read.

F-35: Q&A with Winslow Wheeler by Juliet Buck

[koti]

Lets say its between rafale and EF, where does F35 fit in?

Because the huge cost makes one question if this is the right path to continue down.

Perhaps better to look at cheaper gap-filler options and then spend the money that would have gone to MRCA on F-35 or something.

Money aside, do you think F-35 in its current form would stand tall against some of the 600 parameters laid down by IAF when compared to EF and Rafale.?

I'm unaware frontal stealth is among them, suggest ignoring that.

And no, I don 't think order would be split. It would be either of the two.

Absolutely, splitting between the EF and Rafale would be the worst of all possible decisions.

+1.
I believe a separate acquisition of 2-3 squadrons of F35 apart from 126 MMRCA(EF/Rafa) will be a good outcome at the EOD.

[Manish_P]

Fully capable in what way?

Carrying out the mission assigned to it.

It didn't meet the IAF's requirements !

Again certain arbitrary requirements whose actual importance is somewhat dubious.

WOW

[Pratik_S]

According to my source
1st Indian made PAK-FA by 2014.
1st PAK-FA for IAF with new engines and nozzels in 2018.
Also by 2018 IAF is expected to have around 40 PAK-FA's.

He also called the discussion on JSF and PAK-FA being delayed as ""

[Philip]

Dear George W,how can I be "making things up" when I quote from AWST and other aviation journals and established sources? If you've read my earlier posts,I've even given the issue numbers,etc.Anyway,I suggest that you buy the "Thanksgiving Turkey" when it eventually arrives,late in the decade if at all and we let the IAF get on with the job of choosing between the two Eurobirds who are breasting the tape in a photo-finish.After all this thread is named after them and not the JSF!

Given the possibility that they might offer their tricks for more that what the IAF punter can afford and we have to look for chepaer more affordable entertainment for our pilots, we or you can then start a new thread on the merits of cheaper and more expensive birds like your turkey.For the moment then let's eat poulet/chicken!

PS:For just 120 birds or even another 60+ of them ,there is little justification in spliiting the award.Given a healthy Indian production rate of 16 per year,it will take us 6-7 years before we touch 100.Should we need extra numbers,and to my eye it would be for more strike capable aircraft and not air-domination types,we could increase production of Jaguar UGs which could carry much of the PGM armanent which would be carried by the MMRCA.Many air forces are discovering that small little turbo-props can do at a fraction of the cost of a modern jet,many GA/COIN tasks.An Italian company has developed a truly eco light strike aircraft.Not that they would be replacements or alternatives for the MMRCA,a very complex bird,but a holistic inventory of aircraft could fill certain gaps,especially that of numbers.We must also remember that in today's scenario,the majority of air strikes taking place in Af-Pak for example are being done by drones (UCAVs).The ability of such types to loiter even for days,with the latest prototypes,monitor and deliver PGMs when required,is becoming an essential part of an air force's assets.The PRC is making a massive investment in UCASVs and is developing a wide variety of them.The MMRCA acquisition has also been about TOT,particularly western,as we have Russian tech on hand with the FGFA JV.The hope is that the spin-off from this acquisition will benefit the LCA MK-2 programme and the AMCA in the future,which for the moment is only a paper plane.

[Singha]

there is no need for F-35 in IAF for next 10 yrs atleast. if ADS2 is big and features US supplied gear like EM cats at friendship prices then we can consider the F-35 if it proves itself by then.
AMCA should imo plan for a naval version from day1 itself, and plan for catapult launches, avoiding the troublesome lift-fan game.

[Taygibay]

Some people have asked about the AtoA advantage of the Typhoon.

The EF has the same aerodynamic layout as the Rafale.
Delta wing with canards.
The main difference stems from the canards' position.
The ones on the EF are far in front and the Raffy's are
closed-coupled. What that means is that the Rafale's
canards act on the air layer on top of the wing to give
the vortices needed to optimize wing loading.
In contrast, the Typhoon ones are used to provide a long
moment arm that moves the nose of the airplane.
That solution comes into optimal play at high speeds so
that the plane changes attitude quicker.
If you couple that advantage to a higher trust, you end
up with a plane that moves best at high speeds and altitudes.
The EF should thus reach high and fast better.
The cost is that from mid-levels to near-ground, the Rafale
will perform better and should handle low speeds better.
This explains why there is no naval Typhoon as it could hardly
handle the low speed approaches of the carrier flight deck.

Good day all, Tay.

[koti]

^^Tay Bhai, Can you comment on the performance of these configurations over the thin air of Himalayas?

[kelesis]

So what do we know today?

- Rafale finished at the first place in IAF evaluation
- Rafale is a bit cheaper than EF
- F-35 is not an option

Smells good for Raffy?

[SaiK]

I don't think Ef has a naval variant designed yet. If the canards are a constraint, they could think about nLCA or PAK-FAic moveable LEVCON options. And, don't forget the TV nozzle.

[krishnan]

EF naval version made debut at AI-2011

[shiv]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=16491

108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner

..senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.

Reminds me of a joke

Doctor: I have good news and bad news. Which do you want first?
Patient: Tell me the bad news doc.
Doctor: You have a 50% chance of dying and a 50% chance of surviving
Patient: And the good news?
Doctor: I get paid either way.