JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby PratikDas » 11 Nov 2011 06:17

Victor wrote:LSA: Logistics support. Ie. you fuel my jet, I fuel your's. You land in my airport, I land in your's.


I start a war, you make sure I get fueled if I choose to land in your country, whether you want to be a participant in my war or not. :roll:

And the US isn't exactly shy of starting conflicts in the Middle East. Manmohan Singh even said that we're against sovereignty of nations being violated and what not. So why should we keep fueling them through their war when we evidently want nothing to do with it?

It goes without saying that if India is in trouble and the US actually wants to help then they won't need to pull out a signed document when asking for fuel. Similarly, if India wants to participate in a US lead war then this signed document won't be required either. Then what the hell is it for? It's for ensuring support regardless of Indian consent in the circumstances.
Last edited by PratikDas on 11 Nov 2011 07:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Nov 2011 07:12


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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 11 Nov 2011 08:24

Let me repeat: we did not reject CISMOA etc. We simply chose to not sign at this time and have left the door open. There is a difference and it is a good option to have. Going by the developments in our neighborhood, I fully expect to see it signed in the not too distant future. Note that the GoI asked the IAF for its opinion and the exact reply of the IAF was "it does not make a difference", ie. neither here nor there. Would they do this if it were such a dangerous agreement?

Again, the LSA is opposed by India's mortal internal enemies who supported the Chinese in 1962--the traitorous left. UPA does not want to rock the boat as there were no overwhelming benefits flowing from accepting it now. It has not opposed LSA in principle which is a mutually beneficial agreement meant mainly to be used during disaster relief operations and joint exercises like Red Flag. Regardless, LSA is not required to buy and use fully equipped American weapons systems. The only inconsequential (for India) restrictions are with CISMOA.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby PratikDas » 11 Nov 2011 08:34

Yes, we didn't commit to never signing the CISMOA. I don't know what that's supposed to mean. We didn't commit to never signing the NPT either. We just said that we don't like it in it's current form because it is discriminatory. So how does not signing a document suggest that it is only a matter of time before we choose to?

See, now you're the one with "yeevill" stories about why the LSA was NOT signed. If our babus are so useless then there is no point in debating this fighter because the order to use them in a war will never come, right?

You can't tell me that my interpretation of the LSA is wrong. That's why you didn't.

Anyway, this is disintegrating into a difference of opinion. You are for signing all the contracts. I'm for a show of evidence of true strategic support or else the salesmen can take a hike.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby member_20067 » 11 Nov 2011 09:01

JSF carrot is just a way to pressurize India to buy "other" stuffs like M-777, Apache.. etc.. US govt. knows very well that India wont buy JSF.. however it is just one more rejection that India has to go through ,which US feels, will force India to accept US offers in other competitions .. as well as increasing follow on orders on C-17, C-130 etc...

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Austin » 11 Nov 2011 11:35

Cain Marko wrote:Austin, thx for the link - all I will say is that those who don't like the bird, really hate it; and those who tend to like it, really praise it. Too extreme.


That is something i would agree with :)

Most of the folks that love the F-35 are the LM folks or the paid write up we have seen on AFM/Air Intl , Janes etc well after all they have to sell the bird.

also, I realize that there are other factors to a/c performance, however, the F-35 is not as poor as some might make it out to be. For e.g. using the config I gave above, it has a v.similar wingloading to an F-16 blk60 or Shornet- around 460kg/msq. Not great vs. perhaps Ecanards, but then the bird makes up for it via a very low RCS airframe. More importantly, it is still not the production variant, there is likely to be further weight reduction, and refinement.


Actually if it comes to F-16 Blk 60 at the initial stage of life then its really bad, Block 60 is not the greatest kid in the block as far as Aeroynamic an Raw peroformance goes but for F-16 is fine becuase they are at the fag end of life , they have seen their best in Blk 30 an 52 or earlier variant and aircraft tends to get heavy with every new block model.

So if JSF is what it is now , it would get bad in aerodynamic performance in later stage of life as it woul naturally get heavier ( so is it for PAK-FA hence the need for more powerful engine but PAK-FA would still beat the Su-35 aerodynamically now )


The F-35 in many ways, can be thought of as a somewhat so-so fighter ala F-16/60 or F-18E in terms of kinematics, it can perform well enough, but not as good as say, an EF 2000 or Su-35. Does not mean that an F-18E/F-16blk60/F-35 can't cause trouble for the more agile birds, just that in the supersonic regime, it is not as topnotch.


The problem would come when it enters in to many to many duel at that time a stealth will be of no advantage and it woul boil down to kinemetics , aerodynamic performance and other flying qualities T/W , Turn rate etc , you can and eventually they would fit stuff like MAWS , DAS , DIRCM , Towed Decoys etc on to a Rafale ,Su-35 and Eurofighter which would not give F-35 any advantage , thats where it would likely loose. Remember the advert Aircraft need not manouver , Missile would do ..... they pretty well know how things would come to in WVR , hence they stress on DAS and Missile an Stealth ( which practically is of no advantage for either JSF or F-22 or PAK-FA in close duel )

In BVR without AWACS support JSF would retain the first look advantage , which can be reduced if you have awacs support .


But the biggest difference bet say the Shornet/F-16IN and the F-35 is the fact that it more than compensates for this mediocre aerodynamic capability with all aspect stealth, and a very uber sensor package.


Stealth of JSF or other aircraft is over rated , the stealth is mostly X-band specific ( true All Aspect Stealth is something only B-2 has in reality ) and once you have the same object seen in L band ( or best VHF ) then you would find that you nullify the stealth advantage to good extent , sensor package is given for JSF but there wont be a generational advantage when you compare with EF , Rafale or Su-35 , the advantage will be small at best and can be over come.

You know the story of F-117 being shot down by SA-3 using nothing but 60 systems at best ( 2 generation behind ) with minor improvement , and in a situation where there was complete air superiority , JSTARS , AWACS and what not , all you needed was a smart SAM operator and smart tactics , if you have it you can deal with it.

So imho, while I would always prefer the Ecanards over the Shornet or F-16IN, I'll take the F-35 over the Ecanards, the stealth option clearly gives a winning edge. Look at it this way, would an F-16IN be more effective with VLO features? If yes, then please select JSF from Table LM.



All boils down to choice , against JSF i would take EF if there is AWACS support , against F-22 or PAK-FA i would think around Tactics and Innovation and anti-stealth measures if i dont have equal capable platform.

I think EF can hold its own in A2A combat as long as you can have other supported platform backing you.

BTW if you have read the rand and other studies , till date a BVR engagement has a Pk of 0.46 using AIM-120C and that too in a situation where in most times the platform was not aware its under attack ( i.e. lack of SA ) and in all situation Allies clearly enjoyed all the modern platform and support they could get.

So even a BVR is mostly hyped for the range they mention goes equally for AIM-120C5/7 or RVV-SD or others ,their NEZ is typically very low for long range , a decent NEZ will boil down to 40 % of their claimed range. The only true BVR that will give a good NEZ at long range ( ~ 100 km ) is Meteor against modern fighter aircraft with its defensive capabilities.
Last edited by Austin on 11 Nov 2011 11:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 11 Nov 2011 11:42

Nope.. not at all.. India is not pressurized by Unkils but by MUTUs of desh. In fact when they lost the order for MRCA, though they were surprised of the boot, but realized that India is going through a non-corrupt professional selection based on 600 odd aspects.

India is not a paki country to woo or gubo to unkill. India buying a single weapon from unkill will and should be decided by India, and not under any influence. That is a wrong thought, that sounds like ddm.

In fact even the strong Russkies are not mad at being out of MMRCA race. We have come this far on a professional and no corruption basis. I hope we shall continue on the same process model, and select the winner for MRCA.

Now, JSF offer is not to spoil the MRCA, if everyone thinks that way. Is this buyer's decision or sellers? India can not be treated like how unkill treats pakistan.

Guys, please don't keep harping that it is for wooing, cancelling MMRCA, blah.. it looks so ddmish.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby chiragAS » 11 Nov 2011 13:20

Just to remind one more acronym ITAR
IMO Basically a racist one.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Aditya_M » 11 Nov 2011 18:19

SaiK wrote:Now, JSF offer is not to spoil the MRCA, if everyone thinks that way. Is this buyer's decision or sellers? India can not be treated like how unkill treats pakistan.

Guys, please don't keep harping that it is for wooing, cancelling MMRCA, blah.. it looks so ddmish.


In a certain way, it's only fair for us to mock the DDM as come *cough*certainkernels*cough* have advocated just that. We may be overreading into the offer and such, but some sort of an offer exists when it really shouldn't. So we (jingos, not the brass) look at it and trash it if it deserves to be trashed!

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby ShauryaT » 12 Nov 2011 02:27

x-post:

If this has been posted in this fast moving thread, then I apologize.
Why is US peddling a hangar queen?
It is the imperative to save the JSF programme that has prompted Washington to offer this plane to IAF. Delhi has to decide which combat aircraft industry — American, French or European, it will play the white knight to.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 12 Nov 2011 05:24

there is no offer.. even if obama wishes, it can't happen. the RFI must come from IAF.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby koti » 14 Nov 2011 18:51

It is said that the F-35 is going to be more affordable due to its economies of scale. Holding the same theory why cant an order of 1000 Raptors come at a reduced price? Why is the production capped?

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2011 02:22

The aura of secrecy on the F-22 is exceptionally intensive,with Japan denied the bird.One presumes that the stealth capability-better than JSF,is one major reason why the cost is so prohibitive,almost 1.5 times that of the JSF.The maintenance regime for the aircraft is also supposed to be very stringent which will add significantly to the cost of operating the aircraft.Ultimately,like possessing cars,where we all like to have a Rolls or Bentley,a Ferrari,Jag or another sports car for showing off, kept mostly in the garage,instead using an SUV or midddle of the road sedan like a Honda City/diesel Skoda for everyday use! Cheaper to operate,more versatile and easier to repair than the obscenely priced beauities in the garage.The JSF was supposed to be the "low" end of the US's stealth birds,affordable and exportable in diff. capability variants to US allies as it was an inferior fighter compared with the F-22,with the F-22 being the "high" end.

Thus we had the MIG-21,Phantom F-4,Mirage-3s and latterly the F-16/F-18s,which being cheaper make up the numbers, doing the bull work.It is only in the last two decades,with the arrival of the Flanker and its many variants,that a top of the line fighter (Russian),available at lower costs than western fighters, has been so widely exported and in service today,and holds its own against the best of the west.In the Indian context,legacy aircraft like IAF Jaguars UG and upgraded MIG-29s and M-2000s,will still do the bull work,along with the MIG-21 Bisons and MIG-27UGs as long as they can last.It is quite an achievement for the IAF that the MKIs ,about 300 of them,will be the largest type in service the future,with their superb capability making up the numbers and by a quirk of fate in reality serving as replacements for the MIG-21s which one expected was the LCA's task! One sincerely hopes that the LCA eventually matures and helps fills this role.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 15 Nov 2011 09:20

There is a lot of talk about Oirope going bankrupt and finances of the bidding companies jeopardising.. How about GOI buying the companies themselves rather than just partnering with the euro-consortium for the aircraft...Some of the partner states could do with the money...

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Pogula » 15 Nov 2011 10:12

F-22 was capped because it was a failure. I don't care what people say about it's unknown and unverifiable state-of-the-art features. All I know is that a plane costing $350 Million a pop is never going to work in real wars where the USAF is facing even a half-decent enemy air force/defense. Also, it is just not practical to maintain those monsters in combat situations when dozens of sorties are expected every day. F-22 is a failure. And, hence, the cancellation. You don't use a Rolls Royce Phantom in a Demolition Derby, do you?

F-35 is still a work in progress and could go either way. As of now, though, the picture looks bad! The financial crises in US and partner nations might just be the final nail in its coffin.

USAF is actually being smart in quietly focusing on the unamanned fighter programs behind the scenes.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2011 18:07

Gaks,we missed a great opportunity with Fokker and Dornier,esp. the latter where we manufactured the aircraft in large numbers for ourselves.Now we are mere suppliers to RUAG! The current aerospace companies are now networked intricately with other smaller Euro def. companies into large conglomerates like BAe,Dassault,etc.There is no way that we can buy out these giants costing zillions.We should look for successful JVs in areas where we cn both prosper,just like the Brahmos example,where it is a win-win situ for both sides.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby VinayG » 16 Nov 2011 10:51

interesting article Britain's Harrier jump-jets reprieved to fly and fight again With the US Marines, though. They're not stupid

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/15/harriers_saved/

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby rajanb » 16 Nov 2011 13:01

From Jane's via email

[u]Briefing: Worth waiting for?[u]

The US military's plan to develop the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) in partnership with eight other countries has been over budget and lagging behind schedule for years. The F-35's money troubles have long been a source of concern on Capitol Hill and have led to vacillation among international partners debating when to order the aircraft, how many to order and whether to buy them at all

[first posted to http://jdw.janes.com - 04 November 2011]



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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 16 Nov 2011 17:17

Philip wrote:Gaks,we missed a great opportunity with Fokker and Dornier,esp. the latter where we manufactured the aircraft in large numbers for ourselves.Now we are mere suppliers to RUAG! The current aerospace companies are now networked intricately with other smaller Euro def. companies into large conglomerates like BAe,Dassault,etc.There is no way that we can buy out these giants costing zillions.We should look for successful JVs in areas where we cn both prosper,just like the Brahmos example,where it is a win-win situ for both sides.


Well bilathel , the companies are not as big as one might imagine.. In fact Dassault aviation is only worth 5 billion dollars..Thats about the size of the M2K upgrade deal , and quarter the size of the the total life cycle costs of the MMRCA.. The EADS companies relevant to the Eurofighter are less than 20 billion total.. When we are spending 15-20 b , we might spend more and buy some of the the companies , rather than simply have a JV..A simple transfer of tech without IPR /profit sharing would be a very bad deal...

http://investing.businessweek.com/busin ... S%20Dollar

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2011 19:51

we need strategic minority stakes atleast to control their future direction, plug our domestic industries into the global ecosystem and lock out the panda from such sensitive techs.

GE aviation and honeywell are firmly in panda camp hoping to cash in on their new civilian airliner project.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2011 19:59

yup.. masan policy is penny wise and pound foolish.. of course the currency here is defense & strategy.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 16 Nov 2011 20:34

We should greenmail them... Supposing if we successively float rumours of Eurofighter being inadequate etc THEIR STOCKS MIGHT TUMBLE...43.5% of EADS stocks are publicly traded... some tricks can bring their value down..we can open a front organization that buys a huge stake from the open market once the price goes down .. that way we can have a decent bargaining power..

We can buy the companies that have something to offer technologically , leaving out the ones that have a decent indian counterpart..

But alas , who the hell are we to be doing the wishful thinking... If we had been running the country , things would have been radically different...

Khanate is class 1 idiot when it comes to foreign policy and strategy...and a seriously over-confident... In 1990s who could imagine that their super-powerdom would be show short lived... One reason they got well with the Pakees is because both are tactically brilliant..

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby rajanb » 17 Nov 2011 09:52

Rec'd this via email from a classmate:

Indian-American Scientist Develops Next-Generation Chip

Washington, USA
:



An Indian-American, Raj Dutt, an IIT-Kharagpur aluminus, has developed a next-generation

energy-efficient computer chip, that has caught the attention of the Pentagon, which is testing its

application in the ambitious F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.


The breakthrough technology by Dutt, Chairman and CEO of privately held APIC Corp. and

Photonic Corp. helps computer processors consume up to 90% less energy and run upto 60%

faster, according to a PTI report.

"The significance of the technology is, that information transfer on the semi-conductor chip

as well as between components, will now be done using light - photons - instead of just electrons

(electronics)," California based Dutt told PTI. There are many advantages in size, weight and

especially power consumed, he explained during his recent trip to Washington, where he met

Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee. Photons do not generate heat and thus they do not need

to be cooled. For electronics, cooling is one of the largest cost components. "Photonic interconnects

do not generate heat and use less size than electronic copper interconnects, so more transistors

can be put onto a chip. Most significantly, we have figured out how to do this using the same

economical process used in manufacturing semi-conductor chips today, enabling them to be

stamped out by the millions," Dutt said

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Austin » 17 Nov 2011 10:01

JSF could be in danger due to deficit cuts - US Defence Sec

Panetta Details Budget Doomsday For Congress

.
On Nov. 14, Panetta laid out $200 billion in kills or delays to major programs in the long term that would result from Congress’ failure to act. The F-35, the bomber, the Littoral Combat Ship, Ground Combat Vehicles and the next-generation ballistic missile submarine would all fall by the wayside

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby member_20292 » 17 Nov 2011 13:11

I think the next generation of both European and American weaponry (son of JSF) should ideally be RnDed, and manufactured in India.

1. India , with its economic might and potential and rivalry with China, will need the defence tech. Its a trustworthy country and well integrated into the western world view. Cooperation with all the world military projects. Excellent Human resources training (Cope India et 04, 05, Malabar exercises with reference to Bharat Karnad talk ) and finesse in using strategic arms prudently.

2. It will be cheaper to do this in India than in Europe for the next 100 years at least. Europe does not have many strategic threats apart from their own blundering, bumbling selves.

3. hence, I have a feeling that getting trans-national projects like the EADS Typhoon is EXCELLENT, because it allows the Euros to see a way to outsource their defence needs to India. The manufacture and partnership in EADS will allow for cheaper prices to result, in time ,and the movement of the EADS infrastructure , gradually, over the period of many decades, to India. In the future, I foresee India providing trusting partner nations comprising the EU with both materiel and maybe men to guard their borders. Security in EU is becoming a joke, and I dont foresee them wanting to keep up with the joneses, technologically for much longer. And this shall happen across the board, with submarines, ships, tanks, missiles etc. What need does Italy have of missile RnD? better allow India to be the recipient of the EU arms factories, lock stock and barrel and EU be the recipient of the cheap arms that result.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 17 Nov 2011 16:36

What we need to do is to take a holistic view of the entire requirments of the IAF within a national strategic review.What a British admiral forsaw a decade ago has come to roost,that with costs of advanced military eqpt. skyrocketing,wthe RN would have about a dozen ships with two dozen admirals and dozens of officers wth no ships to man! So how do we plan to maintain credible defence posture and modernising all the while? Unfortunately,we are being seduced with the nmagic bullet approach of many US manufacturers,who push the bleeding edge of tech almost to the point of inability to perfect a usable and economical application of the same,as in the case of the JSF "stealth".Stealth became a mantra after the Bosnian War,when we saw for the first time in operation the F-117.The idea of possessing an "invisible" aircraft had the allure of science fiction and everyone wanted to get a piece of the action.

Especially with US eqpt.,as the US being the richest nation on the planet a had an almost limitless budget to blow on military development,a high-tech,high-cost approach was supposed to bring a high-hope with it! Superiority on the battlefield was expected after investing such sums.What the US forgot was that smaller less rich adversaries would use the assymetric approach to defeat US intentions.Thus the massive casualties suffered in Iraq and Afghanistan to suicide bombers,land mines,etc.With the advent of PGMs,the US itself found that using drones instead of manned aircraft had a 100% no-hostage risk even if shot down,which avoided the kind of heart-pang at home,as experienced during the Iran hostage crisis situ decades ago.Removing the man from the machine had an almost moral appeal no matter how much of collateral damage was caused.It was as if the entire operation was just another video game-except for those at the receiving end !

Against this

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 17 Nov 2011 20:22

mahadevbhu wrote:I think the next generation of both European and American weaponry (son of JSF) should ideally be RnDed, and manufactured in India.

1. India , with its economic might and potential and rivalry with China, will need the defence tech. Its a trustworthy country and well integrated into the western world view. Cooperation with all the world military projects. Excellent Human resources training (Cope India et 04, 05, Malabar exercises with reference to Bharat Karnad talk ) and finesse in using strategic arms prudently.

2. It will be cheaper to do this in India than in Europe for the next 100 years at least. Europe does not have many strategic threats apart from their own blundering, bumbling selves.

3. hence, I have a feeling that getting trans-national projects like the EADS Typhoon is EXCELLENT, because it allows the Euros to see a way to outsource their defence needs to India. The manufacture and partnership in EADS will allow for cheaper prices to result, in time ,and the movement of the EADS infrastructure , gradually, over the period of many decades, to India. In the future, I foresee India providing trusting partner nations comprising the EU with both materiel and maybe men to guard their borders. Security in EU is becoming a joke, and I dont foresee them wanting to keep up with the joneses, technologically for much longer. And this shall happen across the board, with submarines, ships, tanks, missiles etc. What need does Italy have of missile RnD? better allow India to be the recipient of the EU arms factories, lock stock and barrel and EU be the recipient of the cheap arms that result.



In a few decades time there will not be any next generation oiropean or khanate arms...it ll be Yindia onlee...


>>> maybe men to guard their borders

what r we ? nepali's ?

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby anishns » 17 Nov 2011 20:37

I think this is the gent!

http://www.photonic-corp.com/pdf/Dr-Bir ... tt-Phd.pdf

rajanb wrote:Rec'd this via email from a classmate:

Indian-American Scientist Develops Next-Generation Chip

Washington, USA
:


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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 18 Nov 2011 09:15

HP is going to bring out a new line of servers with low power ARM processors. said to be good for serving up static web content that does not need high power CPUs. potential savings for small business and parts of the datacenter.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby arunsrinivasan » 18 Nov 2011 19:23


anishns
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby anishns » 18 Nov 2011 23:58

Singha sir.....this piece in the JSF thread? :D

Singha wrote:HP is going to bring out a new line of servers with low power ARM processors. said to be good for serving up static web content that does not need high power CPUs. potential savings for small business and parts of the datacenter.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 19 Nov 2011 04:06

arunsrinivasan wrote:More problems :?: for F-35B

New cracks for the F-35B, and life under probation

That is a very positive report about the difficult STOVL version which the IN may have an interest in. Article says all problems are being ironed out like clockwork.

There is only one other DoD weapon system that was officially placed on a "probationary" status. That was the Boeing C-17. The airlifter is now considered a model programme, but in 1994 it was inarguably in even worse shape than the F-35B is today


A stealth fighter-bomber that can act like a helicopter and transition into supersonic flight redefines Multi Role Combat Aircraft and is not going to be abandoned now, after most of the development and expenses are done. It creates barriers to entry that will remain too high for any other country in the next few decades and will almost certainly become operational before either the T-50 (there may not be any "FGFA") or the J-20. The only thing superior to it over 20-30 years will be the Raptor.

The economics of the JSF are also huge:

* F-35B and its variants will reduce the need for multiple combat aircraft types in the air forces that have them.

* It will be produced in the thousands, reducing per-piece costs to well below other 5th gen fighters in the world, even the "4++" fighters. Brits, Germans, French will hop on soon and dump their own programs.

gakakkad
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 19 Nov 2011 08:37

>>The only thing superior to it over 20-30 years will be the Raptor.

superior in propaganda ,marketing and djinn-eering...

>>T-50 (there may not be any "FGFA") or the J-20.

what the hell is J-20 ?.. A new brand of noodles? we are talking about real planes here ..Not the ones made in a Manhua studio...

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 19 Nov 2011 09:24

imo any product no matter how cool in technology/concept that does not meet the needs of customer is a failure. in commercial space such a product will die fast, we know many examples. in military or Sinic H&D space such products might be kept alive on political support or to save face or to build a base for the next effort or to keep manpower engaged.

by that account F-22 is a failure because its customer has no use for it in its vast range of warfighting and logistics missions. no other customer is allowed by the political ban on exports. it will likely serve its useful life out quietly in florida, maryland, alaska, red flag, a few x-pacific deployments and then go away into the sunset. B-52/F-15/F-16 will serve long after the F22 imo.

JSF-usaf version has a good future...they will throw enough money at it to make it work.
JSF-naval has some future, though USN will hedge by investing in more F-18-NG and so on....F18 is good for 2030 atleast
JSF-usmc is on shaky ground....USMC might imo have to give up its fixed wing mini air force to support budget cuts and reduce number of amphib ships....

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2011 09:58

Exactly.. usability engineering should happen while design or rather write the user manual before you design, that will let you know what exactly you want to build for use. F22 was a design by desire and not a design by use [guru: norman]. Of course there are other aspects - it was intended to be so scoped!

LCA++/aMCA must heed to IAF's needs and uses.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 19 Nov 2011 13:04

F-22: Failure? Lack of need? In the same sense as nukes, yes. The US will never give up their clear edge with the F-22. They stopped at 10 squadrons when they realized just how far behind everyone else is going to be on stealth for the next 2-3 decades but the production line can and will be fired up regardless of cost if needed. The very fact that they will not share it with anyone in spite of the cost says everything about its capabilities.

JSF: Packed with cutting edge sensor & EW tech, not as stealthy (and expensive) as the F-22 but more than a match for whatever China and Russia are likely to build. The US is the only country that has made a successful stealth fighter and knew that it was going to be hellishly expensive if it was to succeed long term. So they planned the F-35 strategically to replace the F-16, F-18, A-10, AV-8B and even partly the F-15. The Marine Corps has started sea trials of its version (F-35B) and is looking for IOC by 2014-15.

BTW, the RAND report "findings" that were pounced on by characters like Kopp and sadly, our own BK by extension, have proved to be BS.

write the user manual before you design

OK for followers but impossible when you are the Big Dog, the leader pushing the envelope. Warplanes have always been extending the cutting edge and will continue to do so. The Germans did not think about anything but cutting edge tech when designing the first rocket plane, nor the Americans when designing the first supersonic jet. The "user manual" at the time said humans could not cross the sound barrier.

gakakkad
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby gakakkad » 19 Nov 2011 17:15

If India wants to by f 22 they ll sell it.. they ll sign the contract in a jiffy ...thing is no one wants to buy it.. it barely has a combat radius of 750 km.. external fuel tanks would surely obliterate the stealth..F-22 was designed with a lot of arrogance ..The deigners assumed that a way of detecting them would never exist ... thats about to change .. If you can detect it f-22 can even be downed by a mig 21...

In my line of business I see a whole lot of gimmicky products (most of them coming from amreeki companies)...I have no reason to believe defence is any different.. and the way they are handling 22 i am convinced that it is a flop product..they just want to save H&D .and create an aura of invincibility...if you truly believe all the crap that comes out of unkil , what can we say ? They want people to believe that no one can ever match them..but reality is a little different as we know....

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 19 Nov 2011 20:13

imo F22 and JSF are trojan horses to make everyone expend effort in a false direction.

the real punch lined up is around 5 known ucav x-plane projects and probably 5 unknown. nobody has anything remotely diverse...europe has one proj, rus has no known proj, chinese have plastic airshow models....that and long endurance UAV is where khan is delivering results and leaving the pack behind my long margins.

imagine if after huffing and puffing PRC produces a plane to match the JSF in 2025 and deploys it in 2030, onlee to be faced with a FOC'ed stealth x-plane that is dozen times stealthier than JSF, with deeply buried air intakes and shrouded outlet and can pull sustained 15G due to no human pilot.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby abhik » 19 Nov 2011 20:49

I find this pool question highly biased
Will it be more capable (air combat) than the FGFA?

Why is it being judged based more on it air combat capability for it is a fighter whose middle name is "Strike".

member_20317
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby member_20317 » 19 Nov 2011 21:09

Only the VTOL capability seems exiting. A small airbase on request. Imagine a small 4-6 strike aircraft base in about 2 hours coming up at Vijayanagar or lakhadvipa. And then 5-6 such, 'fly in the ointment' bases along the hot border.

Though even for that an LCA MK2 with say reverse thrusters could be better. Just my jingo dream.

I love the Swedes though. 25 & 38 in the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fye_2AipFTA

dont mean to belittle F35 though. But seems way too expensive.


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