India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2011 18:02

Gentlemen,while Rome burns,the EU fiddles and f*rts.Now that Italy has entered the stage in the Greek tragedy,with Bunga-Bunga Berlo making a sad departure,the stage is set for the hatchet men with their ballpens and bean counters to carry out their hits against the EU banks,which asininely lent money to these wretched spendthrift nations.Europe is desperate and fears of a "depression",not a mere recession are giving EU bankers and trade and industry nightmares.British banks are the most exposed and if France and Spain join the queue of economic "pain",the sh*t will not just hit the fan but go through the roof.EU growth has now been downgraded today to just "0.5%" from "1.8%".

This is the most opportune time for the GOI/IAF to strike a deal with the two EU contenders for the MMRCA.They will be desperate for the lucrative contract which will ensure not just jobs but the survival of their key aerospace industry until things get better.We must be ruthless in driving home the deal and our babus are legendary for driving a hard bargain.I am sure that the good Dr.Money Man Singh knows how to count beans and when to strike ,especially in sucb a situ.The UPA is at the moment also beseiged both by allies and the Opposition over the fuel price hikes,rampant inflation and defending itself aaginst the anti-corruption lobby.If it manages to strike the deal within the estimated budget or even less in the current scenario,it will have done the nation proud and restore some of its tarnished reputation.As Karnad 9in his piece says,the US will have to buy the JSF,but the EU nations,with dwindling orders for their fighters and few export prospects on the horizon thanks to the high cost of their birds,are desperate and will promise the moon if we only ask for it.

IF they do not come down on prices and are still felt too expensive,then we must "cut our coat accorind to our cloth",choos the Gripen,arriving at just over half the cost of one Rafale or EF,and put the money saved into buying more Super-Flankers,which will be 100% made from local materials,upgrading (and adding too) more Jaguars as planned, and accelerating the LCA MK-2 version,building if need be a new manufacturing facility in the south near Bangalore.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... ddles.html

Debt crisis: while Rome burns, the eurozone fiddles
Italy on Wednesday became the first major economy to require an international bail-out as its debts hit “totally unsustainable levels”.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Nov 2011 19:09

Why is US peddling a hangar queen?

This article is a cherry on the F-35 bashing cake in india

, but i do agree on some points though

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Nov 2011 19:12

agree on and the same time, we have seen much more nastier bashing on home grown LCA.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Nov 2011 19:25

Look at the bright side. That since the F35 could not be bid for the MMRCA, we do not have the problem of shooting it down. Whichever a/c we chose ultimately, I hope the MoD consider any risks. Risks not associated with the capability of the a/c and its roadmap, that would have been assessed in the tech evaluation

But the risks involved in the fast crumbling eco situ in Europe.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Nov 2011 19:51

i dont think europe is going to melt down, the core economies - particularly germany remain healthy
but there are bargains to be had

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Nov 2011 20:15

Lalmohan wrote:i dont think europe is going to melt down, the core economies - particularly germany remain healthy
but there are bargains to be had

Lalmohan ji: With Italy joining Greece, Spain and Portugal. France is seemingly next in line. (I also lurk om Moneycontrol.com)

And with a timeline of 5-10 years for us to induct these birds in a way that we can be self-sufficient in keeping them running. Absorbing technologies. Getting our private MiC upto speed. Reducing the burden on Govt. facilities (also inefficient nowadays) so work can be farmed out to the MICs.

A Plan B should be in place. We should be careful that we do not land up infusing funds into any of the vendors to keep our birds flying. Or if we have to, then we should demand our pound of flesh, to put it crassly.

brat · Post by **brat** » 10 Nov 2011 20:39

nash wrote:
SaiK wrote:I agree.. unless there is a 50% commonalities between these two platform, it is no use or a logistic nightmare.. If Kaveri++, mission computing, composite skins and some common sensors, radar and weapons package could constitute the 50% LRUs, then we can think about it.
....
Engine may not be possible for now but weapon(meteor), composites, mission computer(Indigenious),MFD(samtel & thales) and some other things like this can be work out for us.

Why Engine may not be possible

, with the way things are 'desperate times', i would guess every thing would be on table including full partnership for EF anyway

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Nov 2011 21:02

what is % chance of JSF induction in the neighborhood so that these two MMRCA candidate will have to face? I am sure pakis and chips will not get it in the near future. The only issue would be if the saudies buys them and enables the paki pilots to take pee shot at us.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Nov 2011 21:38

^^^ Saikji. Good point.

By the time the Saudis get a flying JSF we would have got our PAK-FA and in greater numbers.

While we still do not know the ultimate capabilities of the PAK-FA, we are getting to know about the JSF.

With the love - hate relationship with the Pakis, who will train the Pakis? the Saudis?

Also our pilots have proven to be superior and the IAF battle doctrine against such a scenario will give the Saudi/Pakis taqleef!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Nov 2011 01:50

SaiK wrote:Let us list all the ways if Italy or France economy breaks down, how will it effect MMRCA deal now?

Please start the list, I'll make the effort to add to it if I can.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Nov 2011 06:53

Very interesting interview with LCl Grandeclaudon of the Adl'A where he discusses about the Rafale's wins over the Typhoon during ATLC in the middle east

link to AFM scan

cross posting from Keypubs forum.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Nov 2011 07:01

Another cross-post that gives a little more description of what happened at ATLC

The Typhoon were inferiors.

Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon - the most recent version - which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said the two air battles - battles with IR-guided missile and cannon - which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor ! Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated "red" attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also"red chest" (MiG-29 index "Charlie") when they shot down 4 "blue" Typhoon - flying as Typhoon - while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the "red" plastron role don't prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.

Some advantages that make the difference.

However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale ...
Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into "massacre" at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 ). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes. A disturbance also compounded by the loss - virtual of course - of an F-22 gun shot by an UAE Mirage 2000-9 flown, this time, by a French experimented pilot.

translation from French, so its a little difficult to follow at times, but the message gets across.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Nov 2011 07:32

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids.

The cost of acquiring the winning aircraft for India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is no longer a secret — except to the public, for now.
With final bids in for the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the offers of both European companies were opened Nov. 4 and their contents revealed for the first time to the two European rivals, as well as the Indian government’s MMRCA program team, and three defense ministry officers who will spend the next 6-8 weeks boiling the two offers down to a common, comparable form.

Bid details are not yet public. But after the 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters, a ministry officer in the acquisitions office indicated that certain parameters, including the flyaway cost per aircraft, were not as disparate as might have been expected.

Officials from the two firms would not comment on the bids, though EADS Cassidian released a statement minutes after the meeting, saying: “Our offer for India’s MMRCA tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defense industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India.”

Privately, officials at both companies said they were confident with where their bids were placed. That is not surprising, especially since the biggest factor is still an unknown: how the ministry will arrive at the ownership/life-cycle cost of both aircraft over a 40-year/6,000-hr. run — an exercise it has never attempted before. Mystery also shrouds the benchmark price, a figure that the ministry and IAF jointly formulated this year, and one to which the bid prices of the Rafale and Eurofighter will be compared with, to focus on the more competitive proposal.

“Both companies now know the unit cost of each other’s aircraft,” the ministry officer said. “That was closely held information so far. But the real calculations, which will include [the] cost of flying these aircraft over their lifetime, plus inputs from technology transfer and offsets, will provide a final picture. We have a formula and process. It will now be applied to both bids.”

Industry observers suggest that the government is now well-placed to make a decision, though others indicate that the only real political decision made in the competition so far was the elimination of the two U.S. contenders, Lockheed Martin and Boeing, in April.

“If the two final offers from Dassault and Eurofighter are roughly comparable, the government will perhaps want to leverage more strategic benefits from the potential winner,” says an adviser to the Confederation of Indian Industry, which counts among its members several firms that will be offsets partners to either Dassault or EADS Cassidian. “You couldn’t ask for two aircraft that are more comparable, or bigger rivals in the aerospace market today. It’s an opportunity for India to truly gain something here, over and above the 126 airplanes.”

The lowest bidder, and therefore the one poised to win the $10.4 billion deal, is expected to be formally announced before the new year. Price negotiations will follow with the lowest bidder, leading to contract signature by March 2012, and bringing to an end a 10-year effort by the IAF to buy a stopgap fleet to stem fighter squadron depletion.

The government has not formally announced lowest bidders in arms competitions, but it had apparently decided unofficially last year to begin the practice as an exercise in transparency. In September 2010, the government revealed that General Electric had been identified as the lowest bidder in a competition against Eurojet to power the indigenous Tejas Mk. 2.

As for the MMRCA’s final contract value, it is likely to be well more than the originally budgeted $10.4 billion. It could reach roughly double that figure, taking into account factors such as inflation, currency fluctuation adjustments and the possibility of a larger buy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2011 08:57

Most likely the winner will get more orders from Brazil, Singapore and other countries who might want to get same price advantage.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 11 Nov 2011 09:51

Lets hope we get the EF.

1. There will be less chance of us getting screwed over on spare parts supplies and upgrades with the 4 EF countries than by going with Dassault.
2. We will gain a heck of a lot more in industrial benefits/offsets through the 4 Euro countries.
3. The EF manufacturing process is far more advanced and of higher quality. Thus HAL will gain more knowledge/experience for future aircraft production.
4. The radar performance difference between the two is quite substantial.
- EF radar dia is 70cm + with 1426 TRM
- Gripen NG dia is 60cm with 1000 TRM
- Rafale dia is 55cm with between 840 TRM and 950 TRM at most.

PS: LCA radar dia is 65cm. So a future LCA AESA radar should have between 1100 and 1200 TR modules.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 11 Nov 2011 09:52

ramana wrote:Most likely the winner will get more orders from Brazil, Singapore and other countries who might want to get same price advantage.

Typhoon:
* Singapore chose F-15E over Typhoon
* Brazil removed Typhoon from its F-X2 shortlist
* Saudis have it--reason enough to bankrupt Eurofighter asap

Rafale:
* Singapore chose F-15E over Rafale
* Brazil may be waiting for MMRCA. It shortlisted Gripen, F-18, Rafale. If India chooses Rafale, so might Brazil. If not, it will go for F-18 most likely.

Brazil cancelled its Rafale purchase at the last minute in 2009 and opened the new F-X2 competition.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 11 Nov 2011 10:32

You forgot UAE Victor. Its likely for them to buy Rafale & as we know UAE pilots are pakis.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Nov 2011 10:38

Li-fafa from Ajai Sukla trying to cancel MMRCA

Why IAF does NOT need either Eurofighter or Rafale

Just curious- was the Jaguar buy made for a MRCA aka MultiRole Combat Aircraft- HTF did it qualify its non existent air to air capabilities when it was inducted. the 2 WVR Magic missiles was an IAF adaptation and is hardly a deterent for fighters.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 11 Nov 2011 10:38

Nick_S wrote:You forgot UAE Victor. Its likely for them to buy Rafale & as we know UAE pilots are pakis.

AoA! Bankrupt Rafale asap too!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Nov 2011 10:54

Aditya_V wrote:Li-fafa from Ajai Sukla trying to cancel MMRCA

Why IAF does NOT need either Eurofighter or Rafale

I think it would be wrong to call Ajai Shukla Li-fafa , he has a very strong attachment to JSF and sees things accordingly nothing wrong with it , just a point of view.

Li-fafa or paid writing is just a fact of life , no magazine or trade journal would survive without it , how else people are suppose to make money ? Writing the Truth as they perceive it ? I am sure many people would disagree there even if some one wrote facts known on advertised capability.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 11 Nov 2011 11:35

I don't think it's "attachment" at all. He is pointing out the real dangers that confront us because of our deeply flawed procurement system that has made the forces suffer for so long. The procurement of everything from guns to planes have been botched up royally, for decades and is being botched up again. Everything he says is correct and simply dismissing the J-20 as junk or the PAKFA as our savior is laughable if not downright irresponsible.

The only thing he missed is the fact that both Dassault and Eurofighter are not going to be able to hold up their end, no matter what they promise. You can't wish away an impending collapse of the financial system in Europe and the certain belt-tightening it will bring. It is here in front of our faces.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Nov 2011 12:13

Victor wrote:I don't think it's "attachment" at all. He is pointing out the real dangers that confront us because of our deeply flawed procurement system that has made the forces suffer for so long. The procurement of everything from guns to planes have been botched up royally, for decades and is being botched up again. Everything he says is correct and simply dismissing the J-20 as junk or the PAKFA as our savior is laughable if not downright irresponsible.

He is an outright "Fanboy" of JSF is that is right word to be used

Indian procurement is a mess no doubt , I can bet we would still remain the top 3 arms importer for decade to come , it all looks set but then buying JSF is not the answer to the problem not unless it sees some years of active service in USAF and others , I have my deep reservations.

The only thing he missed is the fact that both Dassault and Eurofighter are not going to be able to hold up their end, no matter what they promise. You can't wish away an impending collapse of the financial system in Europe and the certain belt-tightening it will bring. It is here in front of our faces

If EU colapses then it would have a domino effect globally , we would be greatly affected so will be US and China and every one , Dont even think about it

member_20155 · Post by **member_20155** » 11 Nov 2011 13:58

Jai writes in his piece that Veeru has offered to supply each JSF @ $65 Mil. The 2012 US DOD budget request, clearly states that they envisage getting 32 a/c @ $304 mil a piece in 2012.

It seems Jai & Veeru want to take THAKUR for a ride!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 11 Nov 2011 15:39

Vipul wrote:MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids.

The lowest bidder, and therefore the one poised to win the $10.4 billion deal, is expected to be formally announced before the new year. Price negotiations will follow with the lowest bidder, leading to contract signature by March 2012, and bringing to an end a 10-year effort by the IAF to buy a stopgap fleet to stem fighter squadron depletion.

This is definitely untrue.

How can you squeeze someone for a lower price after you have selected them? The lowest bidder will be the final price. I have never come across anything like this.

For e.g: If you choose Bidder A and he refuses to be squeezed are you going to go back to bidder B? Won't it be more advantageous to squeeze both. Both realise they have to play ball to win!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Nov 2011 16:03

they probably mean contractual term negotiation finalisations

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 11 Nov 2011 16:05

1. There will be less chance of us getting screwed over on spare parts supplies and upgrades with the 4 EF countries than by going with Dassault.
2. We will gain a heck of a lot more in industrial benefits/offsets through the 4 Euro countries.
3. The EF manufacturing process is far more advanced and of higher quality. Thus HAL will gain more knowledge/experience for future aircraft production.
4. The radar performance difference between the two is quite substantial.
- EF radar dia is 70cm + with 1426 TRM
- Gripen NG dia is 60cm with 1000 TRM
- Rafale dia is 55cm with between 840 TRM and 950 TRM at most.

^^^^^^^LOL
Points 1 & 2 Why exactly?
Point 3 Ridiculous statement, why doesn't it perform like it then?
Point 4 The only point that will be true ... when there is a second AESA
for fighters in Europe. The only existing one in prod is the RBE2-AESA.

One word : fanboy.

Brazil cancelled its Rafale purchase at the last minute in 2009 and opened the new F-X2 competition.

Which the Rafale won! Brazil decided to put back that order on account of bad financial situation.

For those who actually follow the process :
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/no ... 41209.html

No political considerations.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 11 Nov 2011 16:08

no mention of fgfa in ajais shukla's blog. neither is amca.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 11 Nov 2011 16:19

Another fanboy?

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/11/r ... l?spref=tw

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Libya. The latest, advanced version to be integrated.

The Typhoon having gotten there when there was no enemy plane still taking to the air,
how was an AtoA missile TESTED ??

Please read "carried over Libya".

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Nov 2011 16:21

Raytheon keen to supply missiles to IAF

The Indian Air Force is evaluating the options for its MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) programme. Raytheon feels that its missiles such as JSOW (Joint Standoff Weapon), Maverick, AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) and AIM-9X are capable of being integrated with any type of aircraft that the IAF may select for the programme. The Eurofighter and Rafale are the two in the race for the $10 billion MMRCA to supply about 125 aircraft.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 11 Nov 2011 16:23

Lalmohan wrote:they probably mean contractual term negotiation finalisations

+ 500% a la Moosharuff

It should read contract negotiations. The major clauses would have been agreed to at the time of bidding.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Nov 2011 16:25

By all means select the JSOW & the Maverik ignore the rest.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Nov 2011 17:09

Pratyush wrote:By all means select the JSOW & the Maverik ignore the rest.

Why? Arent wouldn't AMRAAM-D's be a neat addition?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Nov 2011 17:26

^^^

If ASTRA was not in development, I would have supported the AIM 120 D as well. But since it is in development and reportedly doing well. At this juncture going for AIM120 will create a needless museum of BVR AAMS. With the R77, MICA, ASTRA, AIM 120D. While the Astra will be carreied by every aircraft of IAF, the rest will be limited to certain platforms. Adding to logistical burden for the IAF.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 11 Nov 2011 17:39

Taygibay wrote:Another fanboy?

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/11/r ... l?spref=tw

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Libya. The latest, advanced version to be integrated.
The Typhoon having gotten there when there was no enemy plane still taking to the air,
how was an AtoA missile TESTED ??

Please read "carried over Libya".

from the same link

4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!

yeah and ALARM missile is a joint development by US and russia

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Nov 2011 17:58

Pratyush wrote:^^^

If ASTRA was not in development, I would have supported the AIM 120 D as well. But since it is in development and reportedly doing well. At this juncture going for AIM120 will create a needless museum of BVR AAMS. With the R77, MICA, ASTRA, AIM 120D. While the Astra will be carreied by every aircraft of IAF, the rest will be limited to certain platforms. Adding to logistical burden for the IAF.

Astra has not even been launched yet from FIghter aircraft, after that there would be series of tests before it is accepted and productionised, that would take atleast 8-10 years. Further Astra will have too mcuh greater range than the AIM 120- C7 whereas the AIM 120-D certainly will have longer legs.

Right now the only way Su-30MKI can try and make advantage using r-77 against f-16 armed with AIM 120-C7 is use more power, have a higher momentum while launching the missile and achieve greater range.

If uncle had to sell munna AMRAAM's, why didnt they sell them AIM 120-B's like they did with UAE, why the was latest best missile had to be sold

Correction I think Pakis got the C-5 but still why couldnt they sell the B which was still in production.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 11 Nov 2011 18:23

Uh, guys, this is what Raytheon is offering. The IAF might instead decide to go down the Meteor-Storm Shadow-ASRAAM route. All talk about the AIM-120C7/D will be moot.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Nov 2011 19:08

If we need a BVR with highest possible NEZ available for longest range engagement we need to invest in Meteor over any AIM-120 ,Mica or RVV-SD series.

Meteor integrated with MMRCA and MKI will give the cutting edge for BVR engagement in this subcontinent for long time to come.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Nov 2011 19:44

Taygibay wrote:
1. There will be less chance of us getting screwed over on spare parts supplies and upgrades with the 4 EF countries than by going with Dassault.
2. We will gain a heck of a lot more in industrial benefits/offsets through the 4 Euro countries.
3. The EF manufacturing process is far more advanced and of higher quality. Thus HAL will gain more knowledge/experience for future aircraft production.
4. The radar performance difference between the two is quite substantial.
- EF radar dia is 70cm + with 1426 TRM
- Gripen NG dia is 60cm with 1000 TRM
- Rafale dia is 55cm with between 840 TRM and 950 TRM at most.

Points 1 & 2 Why exactly?
Point 3 Ridiculous statement, why doesn't it perform like it then?
Point 4 The only point that will be true ... when there is a second AESA
for fighters in Europe. The only existing one in prod is the RBE2-AESA.

1. I think I'm with him on this one. Or it may just be lingering pain from the sock in kidney that was the Mirage upgrade deal. It could half a decade of negotiating before the final deal was signed, and it still received a fair amount of criticism. It was mooted at the same time as the MiG-29 upgrade, but while the first MiG-29UPG deliveries are imminent, the actual Mirage upgrade process is still in the preliminary phase.

Fifteen years from now, the content and cost of the IAF's Rafale MLU will depend almost solely on France.

2. I think its generally accepted that EF has a more promising offsets proposal and its companies more eager to expand into India. Evidenced by the interactions with the media of the heads of companies involved as well as large EADS and BAE projects in India.

3. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. Lets just say that the jury is out on that one.

4. Even assuming that its so, the effective reach of the only AESA radar in Europe is still limited by the MICA. The Meteor isn't scheduled to be operational until about 2015. But seeing as we're willing to take a Meteor/Aim-120 class missile into consideration while examining both aircraft, its not unfair to include the Captor-E in the equation.

One word : fanboy.

Aren't we all?

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 11 Nov 2011 19:58

@ Viv_S

1 : I'm still waiting for the MMRCA to be awarded before I can
ascertain a position on that one.
Of course if the EF is selected, I will have to agree with my Indian
fellow forumer that it was too costly.
On the other hand, if India goes Rafale we will probably find why
it was so expansive as the M2000H will most likely be highly able
to share with its big brother.

2 : Idem. Jury is still out on that one. Do remember mate that the
offer to Brazil included resale rights over locally produced Rafale
for the whole South American sub-continent. If such a proposal was
to be included, India could very well sell to asian countries that would
rather NOT buy western.

3 : Agreed.

4 : I expect the EF offer to include the Captor-E naturally.
And even though highly imprecise in true knowledge, I support Nick_S'
view that the Captor-E should have more range but it remains tentative
until that radar exists which it does not yet. in addition, radars differ in
the way that they operate and range alone does not determine all.

As for last comment, a fan is an amateur that has a preference.
A fanboy maintains that preference through specious information no matter what.
Being one and not the other, I would heartily applaud the GoI/IAF and
Eurofighter consortium if they came to an agreement. In the same fashion,
I can assure you NOW that if the Rafale win that sweepstake, I will NOT
consider that definitive proof in itself of the superiority of it over the EF.

Let me give you an example. We've all heard the EF argument that Rafale has not
been exported yet. The EF's fanbrigade brings it back up about once a week in any forum.
I have not yet seen this comparison made by the Raffy fanbrigade ( it may have ) :

Initial requirements were: UK: 250 aircraft, Germany: 250, Italy: 165 and Spain: 100.
For a total of 765 ACs before exports.

Best previsions in 2011 go for :
Expected production summary
Country Tranche 1 Tranche 2 Tranche 3A[51] Total
Austria 15 0 0 15
Germany 33 79 31 143
Italy 28 47 21 96
Saudi Arabia 0 24 48 72
Spain 19 34 20 73
United Kingdom 53 67 40[52] 160
Total 148 299 112[51] 559

So one could easily argue that going from 765 without exports
to 559 with them is a 27% reduction in orders while the Rafale
went from 294 to 286 so far, less than 3% difference?
But that proves economical problems and fleet management options
as much if not more than AC true "value" so I/we abstain?

Rajanb says it right* below :

I hope we get what is best for the IAF to be able to handle the threat scenarios we face.

*Both meanings.

Good day all, Tay.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 11 Nov 2011 19:59

^ Agreed we are all fanboys.

But the IAF (though I have a lot of respect for some of the guys who post here and their tech knowledge is fabulous) has rigourously tested all the a/c. And the Raffy and Tiffy have won. (being alphabetically correct in the order I have named them).

I hope we get what is best for the IAF to be able to handle the threat scenarios we face.

*sheds his Raffy fanboy suit*