Division of UP and its implications

[Mort Walker]

I don't mean to belittle the forests of KL, TN and KA, as they are very important, but for tropical forests, the area is less than the forests of central India in MH, MP and CG. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Parks_of_India
Large cat and mammal migration is extremely important for these species to survive over time. It is possible to set this up in central India and would be difficult in other parts. The national parks cannot be islands of biodiversity. The question is, in the politics of all of this division, does anyone care? I doubt it including many members of this forum probably could care less too.

I don't understand what you are saying. No one is asking for these to be islands of biodiversity. The forest ranges can well be contiguous - no one is going to put an electrified fence on the state borders in the middle of the forest. You need to travel around and look at the forests I was speaking of. The reason Veerappan stayed free for so many years was in part because every time there was an operation, the state police of three states used to haggle about the jurisdiction.

The "shitstorm" didn't happen in MP because administring CG was difficult from the state capital of MP in Bhopal. Plus everyone was generally the same in language and culture. Since people don't complain, then divide them again? For what purpose and does it make economic sense. For east and west UP the division has a legitimate argument of poor administration, lack of economic opportunity and overall poor governance. In this instance people won't complain. Anything more than this, you risk raising an unnecessary "shitstorm". If you simply want to divide for the sake of demographics, go ahead and then do MH and AP while you're at it.

Administering CG was difficult from Bhopal? Just like administering Karnataka is difficult from Bangalore, Maharashtra is difficult from Mumbai, West Bengal is difficult from Kolkata - hell, administering India is difficult from Delhi. Hey, just look at the maps and geography. BS. The real reason it was easy to split was because there is very less state identity in these regions - UP, MP, etc. And of course, because everyone is generally the same in language and culture.

And please let us try to stick to logic here, and not draw unnecessary conclusions. No one on this page ever said "split them because they don't complain". All I said was division here will be easier than in many other cases.

1. You're missing the point. The forests of central India are more vast than the south.
The wildlife has to be able to move without being threatened and when you add more states to the mix, coordinating this becomes more difficult. Also...
People are dependent on these forests for their livelihood. As a percentage of people, this group is significant in central India. An arbitrary division of states would impact these people, many of whom are tribal. And as you pointed out, different state's jurisdiction makes all of this more difficult.

2. You're too young or simply not aware that if you start a business or factory in India, often you've got to get permission/licenses from the state government. If you're in Jagdalpur, then getting to Bhopal is difficult. In that sense administring from Bhopal all the way east was difficult.

[Sanku]

What forests of Central India? This is U.P. we are talking of. Any remaining forests are in the Terai belt. That too barely.

Which forest is going to get split up?

[Mort Walker]

They identify themselves more with Awadh , Brij, Kannauj , Allahabadi/Varanasi. Gorakhpuri, Mirjapuri etc rather than UPite hence no identity crisis for them. The idea of division has not yet matured to think seriously on this.

IMHO, everyone identifies ,with equal vigour, the cities/districts where they grew up in,regardless of ethnicity - personally included.All Indians have multiple loyalities but family and country tend override others to a good degree.

Moreover, in that case, the people's very specific wishes ought to be considered their representatives by empowering local governance -RWAs, city and district administration to near chief ministerial powers or in the least panchayati powers (subject only to Governor's/High Court review) in a few subjects such as public health,police capacity, medical/educational infrastructure, roads, industrial quality control etc.; with a large elected assembly made of independent candidates.

New states are completely unnecessary. Personally, I would wish for a roll back of Jharkhand and Uttarakhand with directly elected Chief Commissioner, whose nominees must be approved by state Assembly, must be accepted if CC gets from supermajority in local assembly.

India needs another voice - 596 autonomous district-level developmental councils(as under Sixth Schedule) to implement and make policy recommendations in central schemes like NREGS, under a unitary state-level policy framework of 26 states(26 January). All councils to be largely self financed - this factor could help implement sharing of GST. The councils can be taxed by the state and minimum standards of public service can be enforced.

In UP's case,better to allow all 71 districts to an authority under UP Industrial Area Act,1976.UP/AP/MP/Mh/Raj are already federated states, which urgently need to devolve, not split up, responsibilities to third level of governance -local bodies.Exist in most other Westminister democracy.

A non-partisan/apolitical Mayor/CEO must have financial capacity to function like chief minister of that district/industrial area in terms of policy implementation/monitoring.

Best to divide all the way with comprehensive separation of powers,sharing responsibilities rather than the present half-baked states.

You are mostly correct, but the people from the south has a visceral hatred toward Hindi speakers since they felt the language was imposed upon them. They would love nothing more than to split up Hindi speaking states as revenge. Ironically, it was CR Rajagopalachari who was the early governor of TN who promoted Hindi. All of this will go away in one more generation or about 20 years. In the mean time all sorts of dogs will bark at the caravan.

[Theo_Fidel]

There will be little of no opposition to this split precisely because UP is so un-concentrated and un-urbanized. Lucknow is not a wealthy jewel like Hyderbad is.

This is essentially the single sticking point in the Telangana fight. No Hyderabad problem and Telangana would be created tomorrow. Similarly there has long been a mild movement to split TN into North and South. The key sticking point is that Chennai would be solidly in the North and everyone in the South has at least one relative in Chennai. They are loath to lose this access.

Uttarakhand has been a relative success compared to UP despite the initial doom and gloom. What we have right now is not working too well so UPites should take the opportunity to reorganize now before say Lucknow turns into a place to fight over.
-------------------------------------------
Chandra, MW is famous for pushing peoples buttons pointlessly. Suggest ignore....

[vera_k]

lage hatho, they should also split MH in Vidarbha and MH.. will be great upakaar on Rashtra and its revival prospects..

Plan floating around is MH into 4 - Mumbai, Pune (or Western MH), Marathwada and Vidarbha.

[Mort Walker]

ChandraV,

You're full of it and you know it. Don't give me a bunch of bullshit when you know full well that through the 1980s there was resentment toward Hindi speakers in TN as people felt Hindi was forced on them. But even that is going away and will be gone in 20 years when the haters will retire or die off, pending a few like yourself. Nobody in the Hindi speaking states care if they are separated into a dozen different states as long as it improves their life.

You simply don't understand the idea of creating corridors for the forests for large cats nor care to understand the implications of the vastness of the forests of central India (which by the way are different from the north). The large cats are predator animals under threat by poachers and VERY different from elephants, rhinos and deer. For example, a dominant adult tiger needs 10 sq. km roaming area and this is where keeping the buffer areas intact are so crucial. The range for some of these animals is from MH all the way to Orissa. Between MP & MH, the policy on deciduous forests are different in terms on timber harvesting and development. Sometimes it comes down to whom you can bribe in the respective state forest dept. More states will cause the break down of these buffer areas, since at the end of the day, development, employment and most importantly money are the primary motivators. In the center, elephants are rare, they have a large presence in the east and in KA & TN. Another big issue in India will be protecting the rhino's habitat in the east and prevent deforestation there. You need to go spend some time in these places, since you will never understand.

WTF federalism are you talking about? Have you ever tried to setup something like a petrol pump or get some sort of license from the state capital? Obviously not. The state governments interfere in businesses as they see it as their prerogative to administer. Skher is absolutely right, devolve the state government controls and let responsibilities be handled at the local level or split up states even further.

Going by your "administration difficulty" logic, Delhi is not the right choice for the capital. Maybe we should measure the coordinates to the dot and find the center point of India (somewhere between Nagpur and Chattisgarh) and build a new city there to satisfy the likes of you.

Dispersing central government offices is actually a good idea since the PRC or TSP may attempt a decapitating nuclear first strike on Dilli.

[Mort Walker]

It may be a better idea to make the large metros union territories as once proposed.

[Mort Walker]

lage hatho, they should also split MH in Vidarbha and MH.. will be great upakaar on Rashtra and its revival prospects..

Plan floating around is MH into 4 - Mumbai, Pune (or Western MH), Marathwada and Vidarbha.

Vidharbha will happen once Bal Thackray will die off. Property prices in Nagpur have been going up on this speculation as it would be the state capital of Vidharbha.

[negi]

I have always been a big proponent of division of larger states; following are some of the reasons :

1. For the panchayati raj or even block level system to work the higher ups (district<State) have to actually empower the subordinate divisions i.e. we are talking about Utopia ; this is not going to happen for obvious reasons . Change needs to be top down ; do we need any 1000 page study to back our claims as against citing example of Bihar ? I mean I am sure that the IAS cadre and other district/block level staff was not changed overnight after Nitish Kumar came to power. Bihar has shown a marked improvement under Nitish kumar, there is a reason why Gujarat under Modi is doing well; so the often repeated phrase by pro-establishment wadis that it's not the CM/PM but babus who run the country is not entirely true, it takes two to tango. UP under Mayawati or Mulayam will never prosper they won't let it happen else who will vote for them ?

2. The central aid to a large state like UP is huge I clearly see a direct relation between the size of ghotala and the central aid; it makes sense to have this aid divided amongst smaller state governments, I mean in case UP is divided into 3 states even if two are ruled by Mayawati and Mulayam that leaves the third one which might hopefully do well for itself .

[niran]

Poorvanchal and Bundelkhand are economically backward, and will require a lot of central help for development. But they have resources too. Allahabad was (is) a major center of learning. These two regions will need Chief Ministers like Nitish Kumar and Narendra Modi to bring them up.

All in all, I am in favour of dividing UP.

the phrase in bold, methinks needs enlightenment at least for me, coz in my 40+ years of living
in the so called Porvanchal have yet to see a natural resources apart from 2 abandoned Cremalite mines in Mirzapur, few almost exhausted Gypsum mines again in Mirzapur. i pray no i beseech you
sire, where are the "resources" in Poorvanchal?

the 35% plus moslem biraders if given a state, within 5 years it will be 60% plus and there shall
be another Pakistan.
on these point i say no, no division.

[Sanku]

What forests of Central India? This is U.P. we are talking of. Any remaining forests are in the Terai belt. That too barely.

Which forest is going to get split up?

What forests once again?

What does any of this has to do with division of UP.

[Sanku]

the phrase in bold, methinks needs enlightenment at least for me, coz in my 40+ years of living
in the so called Porvanchal have yet to see a natural resources apart from 2 abandoned Cremalite mines in Mirzapur, few almost exhausted Gypsum mines again in Mirzapur. i pray no i beseech you
sire, where are the "resources" in Poorvanchal?

This was true of Bihar after Jharkhand was split away. I dont think Bihar is worse off for it.

the 35% plus moslem biraders if given a state, within 5 years it will be 60% plus and there shall
be another Pakistan.
on these point i say no, no division.

This is the essential sticking point me thinks.

There are no other issues.

[niran]

the phrase in bold, methinks needs enlightenment at least for me, coz in my 40+ years of living
in the so called Porvanchal have yet to see a natural resources apart from 2 abandoned Cremalite mines in Mirzapur, few almost exhausted Gypsum mines again in Mirzapur. i pray no i beseech you
sire, where are the "resources" in Poorvanchal?

This was true of Bihar after Jharkhand was split away. I dont think Bihar is worse off for it.

the 35% plus moslem biraders if given a state, within 5 years it will be 60% plus and there shall
be another Pakistan.
on these point i say no, no division.

This is the essential sticking point me thinks.

There are no other issues.

Sir Sanku, Bihar is different from Poorvanchal, though physically both the sides are similar
the language, the customs, hell! even the staple diet is different, the cultural values are different, the economics of everything is different, and Bihar was fortunate to have Nitish Kumar, i don't think you will agree to a future depending on such uncertainty.

[Sanku]

Bihar was fortunate to have Nitish Kumar, i don't think you will agree to a future depending on such uncertainty.

Well I am not sure I agree to what you said, but yes I agree that Poorvanchal will certainly have a degree of uncertainty.

I am not personally convinced that this uncertainty will be a issue.

As I said, my concerns are only one and elsewhere.

[Atri]

Delhi is not the right choice for the capital. Maybe we should measure the coordinates to the dot and find the center point of India (somewhere between Nagpur and Chattisgarh) and build a new city there to satisfy the likes of you.

Actually I agree with you here, chandra ji. I have been saying this for eternity. not for epicentre region, but Delhi reeks of history of slavery and subordination. Delhi represents excesses and atyachaar committed on India by Sultans. I would make rather prefer Ujjain as capital of India (capital of vikramaditya). Or Patna and remain it Patliputra. I won't mind Nagpur as well.. excellent choice. We can rebuild it with necessary symbols, infrastructure. anyways. carry on.

Plan floating around is MH into 4 - Mumbai, Pune (or Western MH), Marathwada and Vidarbha.

Vidharbha will happen once Bal Thackray will die off. Property prices in Nagpur have been going up on this speculation as it would be the state capital of Vidharbha.

Dunno about Marathwada. I would not give any separate identity to ex-Nizam region without being absolutely sure. Only when telangana is on the way of becoming dharmik escaping clutches of EJ. Also not sure about Mumbai. Western MH won't let revenue of Mumbai go away.. Afterall it is western MH kaangress which supports and funds ventures of INC. A certain CM is heard of supplying 10,000 crore per month to janpath. It is very heavy, onerous and extremely industrious job, no? of course it is all hearsay and none of it is true.

[Mort Walker]

It may be a better idea to make the large metros union territories as once proposed.

No, it won't. The state governments won't stand for it. It is always more constructive to talk in practical terms instead of weaving castles in the air. Try taking Mumbai away from MH, or BLR from KA. Even a mention of it will cause bloodshed on the streets. For someone who is interested in current affairs and the nation (i.e. for someone who is a BR forum member), such a proposition comes across as remarkably divorced from reality and practicality.

Actually, it was proposed by one of the commissions studying the division of AP and what to do about Hyd. There already is bloodshed when the states and center cannot coordinate for the prevention of terrorism. State governments have vested interest in criminal enterprises and won't take action. We have seen this vividly in Mumbai and in the eastern parts of the NCR where it is UP.

BTW, I have reported your abusive tone and name calling to the admins. If they want to or not take action, that's up to them. In the mean time there is no need to have further discussion with you since you are so removed from reality.

[sanjeevpunj]

Divide and rule policy is being propogated further by Mayavati now.Its a classical way of diverting attention from corruption."Rule the people hard so they do not think of corruption and its related issues." This is the plan behind this move, and everyone seems to lap it up so quickly.The very idea of having a CM in the state as a totalitarian head should be challenged.Decentralised management of the state should be effectively introduced, and the post of CM should be wiped off the slate.Only then we might see a properly governed UP, and eventually, the same applies to all states in India. Political heads like Mayavati are simply not required, they either support corruption directly or indirectly, and in her case it is blatantly direct.

[Nihat]

Small states makes sense, at the very least it clearly distinguishes between areas that have a potential for good growth owing to better infra, good governance from those which are in a dire condition and need basic stuff first. Eastern and Western UP are differently developed and have slightly different needs requiring different solutions.

[Mort Walker]

Excellent! When all else fails resort to false quotations and personal attacks and call people Pakis. I've seen that way too many times.

[Satya_anveshi]

Only when telangana is on the way of becoming dharmik escaping clutches of EJ.

Atri ji, Will appreciate if you can elaborate on this a bit - in what way is it "adharmic" currently or in past? In what way EJs are controlling Telangana in past, current or may be in future? You may respond to this in T thread if you like.

[skher]

You are mostly correct, but the people from the south has a visceral hatred toward Hindi speakers since they felt the language was imposed upon them. They would love nothing more than to split up Hindi speaking states as revenge. Ironically, it was CR Rajagopalachari who was the early governor of TN who promoted Hindi. All of this will go away in one more generation or about 20 years. In the mean time all sorts of dogs will bark at the caravan.

Dunno about Tamil Nadu - it's their point of view*.But I cannot understand this perennial fixation with redrawing & renaming of provincial boundaries/territories/cities ever since three erstwhile British indian subdivisions of Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab and Bengal got "their way" and were partitioned(most unfortunate) staggering through the decades.Is it subconscious revenge against all Indians for their apathy and blind faith in leaders in 1947 - so that all other Indians feel like the Kashmiris, Punjabis and Bengals are going through with? I dunno, but this skullduggery gives only sanguine historians and to be authors relish at our collective folly.


*IMHO,members of the Dravidian movement are the strongest backers of the Indian Union, always have been.Yet,have been repeatedly misunderstood, even while speaking plainly.They were especially let down by people in Delhi, Lahore and Calcutta - A British free India would have made their state (the erstwhile Presidency) the mightiest economy in the world.World history had shown them controlling the ocean rim meant controlling the world's sea traffic. Hence, I can empathize with their rage and revulsion against "blind men of hindoostan(sic)" for the huge opportunity cost - willingly become a stooge @ the UN, when haisiyat was to dictate.Since Fazal ali et al shattered their physical means to realize the above dream - they went ballistic into virtual IT-enabled services and became the back office of the world. Contrast their plainspeak & global outlook with Kashmir and you have your answer.

[Mort Walker]

*IMHO,members of the Dravidian movement are the strongest backers of the Indian Union, always have been.Yet,have been repeatedly misunderstood, even while speaking plainly.They were especially let down by people in Delhi, Lahore and Calcutta - A British free India would have made their state (the erstwhile Presidency) the mightiest economy in the world.World history had shown them controlling the ocean rim meant controlling the world's sea traffic. Hence, I can empathize with their rage and revulsion against "blind men of hindoostan(sic)" for the huge opportunity cost - willingly become a stooge @ the UN, when haisiyat was to dictate.Since Fazal ali et al shattered their physical means to realize the above dream - they went ballistic into virtual IT-enabled services and became the back office of the world. Contrast their plainspeak & global outlook with Kashmir and you have your answer.

Oh, I agree. Some of this also leads back to anti-Brahmanism as well and resentment towards Iyers in TN. Leaders like Kamraj and Rajaji were always strong backers of the union.

[devesh]

Only when telangana is on the way of becoming dharmik escaping clutches of EJ.

Atri ji, Will appreciate if you can elaborate on this a bit - in what way is it "adharmic" currently or in past? In what way EJs are controlling Telangana in past, current or may be in future? You may respond to this in T thread if you like.

Atri ji,
relax and don't bother. "becoming dharmik" was explicitly qualified with "escaping the clutches of EJ". that should be enough explanation. basically, break free of the EJ disease that is creeping up in AP. no need to get into hairsplitting arguments with Stan where most of the posts are vainglorious attempts at showing up self-knowledge and mocking all others.....

[skher]

Delhi is not the right choice for the capital. Maybe we should measure the coordinates to the dot and find the center point of India (somewhere between Nagpur and Chattisgarh) and build a new city there to satisfy the likes of you.

Actually I agree with you here, chandra ji. I have been saying this for eternity. not for epicentre region, but Delhi reeks of history of slavery and subordination.Delhi represents excesses and atyachaar committed on India by Sultans.

One such Sultan thought he was smarter than Heisenberg and seemed to have located the center point of India,precisely, between nagpur and chattisgarh, and self-gratuitously named the sleepy place, Daulatabad.Mohd. bin Tughlaq took everyone in Delhi there for a guided tour and came back disappointed.

But this is OT.Back to my plea of creating a new third level Region List based entities under the amended Sixth Schedule.

Have you ever tried to setup something like a petrol pump or get some sort of license from the state capital? Obviously not. The state governments interfere in businesses as they see it as their prerogative to administer. Skher is absolutely right, devolve the state government controls and let responsibilities be handled at the local level or split up states even further.

1.Please,imploring to everyone, do not support the split up of provinces physically, at all costs, by redrawing maps of Uttar Pradesh,Tamil Nadu,Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Maharashtra -just so because their citizens are laidback about such sculpting aspirations, in the name of development.

2.All of the above are representative of an unique model of unitary sub-federalism, which is even Europe is trying to replicate through the Lisbon Treaty.

3.Create more self financing(not necessarily taxes) local bodies that gain money through the state regulated services they run:- co-operative insurance,housing, public health clinics,waste treatment,utilities schools, etc.People want improved lives, not more street thugs monopolizing their strongholds, like is the case in Chattisgarh(why not 36 new fort-based administrations for promoting tourism, education, health) and Jharkhand(a tribal assembly that has Nitish Kumar has Honorary Chair of planning commission,is in charge of sericulture and afforestation, etc. for both states).

Oh, I agree. Some of this also leads back to anti-Brahmanism as well and resentment towards Iyers in TN. Leaders like Kamraj and Rajaji were always strong backers of the union.

Their progeny and succcesive state leaderships have been one of the strongest backers every general elections - without 'imposing' any national ambitions,like BSP, yet.

[skher]

1. For the panchayati raj or even block level system to work the higher ups (district<State) have to actually empower the subordinate divisions i.e. we are talking about Utopia ; this is not going to happen for obvious reasons . Change needs to be top down ; do we need any 1000 page study to back our claims as against citing example of Bihar ? I mean I am sure that the IAS cadre and other district/block level staff was not changed overnight after Nitish Kumar came to power. Bihar has shown a marked improvement under Nitish kumar, there is a reason why Gujarat under Modi is doing well; so the often repeated phrase by pro-establishment wadis that it's not the CM/PM but babus who run the country is not entirely true, it takes two to tango. UP under Mayawati or Mulayam will never prosper they won't let it happen else who will vote for them ?

1.Two words for the CMs then:Suit yourself like Laloo. Both would acquire more power by splitting their responsibilities to younger faces and reaping the political dividend.

2.Changing political power equations without territorial exchanges is no longer utopia,it's a way of statesmanship 24x7. The coalition politics system is the strongest hard evidence of this phenomenon - it has strengthened central authority yet has allowed state govts. to have voice heard much louder and get things faster back home.Synergy is a necessity, not an option.
3.Yet, did the national capital shift to Chennai or did GoI force TN to be ruled by an unelected Governor permanently, the first time,in 1997? No, both have gained in their clearly delineated spheres of influence.

4.Imagine the partnership between an independent division in charge and the Chief Minister, a good politician would be able to leverage his/her criticisms for her/his advantage.

5.As time passes and our own history has shown, multiple authorities will be most advantageous to a Chief Minister..it's like taking credit for someone's else work...who being 20-30 years old is more than willing to please CM to further himself/herself.

6.Division in charge is implements and suggest changes to the policy framed by chief minister,say, schools are built,financed and managed at the local level but abide by the state board standards.

7.Gujarat government has allowed a lot of freedom/devolution by creating state enterprises to implement its policies, like Gujarat Agro Industries Corporation, which implements the farmer friendly policy of govt. through IT system/mobile and leaves the farmer to make an informed choice as to the best seed for his patch's soil health (also made known) and maximum yield.Sadly, this hasn't and probably will not help UP. Case in point:UPTRON/UPT University.

2. The central aid to a large state like UP is huge I clearly see a direct relation between the size of ghotala and the central aid; it makes sense to have this aid divided amongst smaller state governments, I mean in case UP is divided into 3 states even if two are ruled by Mayawati and Mulayam that leaves the third one which might hopefully do well for itself .

.Yes,why indeed, does a huge food bowl like UP, or any other state, forced to need large dollops of central aid? Does the state admin directly give something back as taxes to the centre? No, its citizenry do.

.Does UP govt./GoI divide fairly capital gains tax 40:40 and distribute the rest 20 to the local industrial authority? No, both of them are too lazy and corrupt so don't even tax the gains rightly, let alone redistribute it.*

.So,the logic is, let's divide the central government into independent countries to improve efficiency - Northern Government of India[with NEFA/Central Agency], Bangla Sorkar (Paschim),Western Government of India(with Laccadive), Southern Government of India(A&N islands)?!?

.Is it not far more practical,in that doomsday scenario, to preserve the country's integrity and devolve authority and power of parallel programme implementation/monitoring.
.For example, a road project can be commissioned and tendered by local authority, have its construction done by a state financed agency and have its quality/standards audited by a central qovt. agency.
.Similarly, road toll rate can be regulated by central law, enforced and collected for the industrial area by the state and maintained for by the district to the state's satisfaction in exchange.

*Capital gains can be collected by CBDT but must have a set %age, say, 40%(Navratna PSU formula here) directly reinvested back in state govt.

[SwamyG]

Mort saar:
For the record, if it makes sense I am for the split.

However, I do value the points you bring on forest and wildlife conservation. So can you talk little more about your concern regarding national parks, forests and wildlife and how State re-organization has an impact on them? Like Chandra mentioned, there is not going to be any fence (electrical) or walls separating the forests into different territories. Explain ji onlee.

[nachiket]

What forests of Central India? This is U.P. we are talking of. Any remaining forests are in the Terai belt. That too barely.

Which forest is going to get split up?

I would like to know this as well. Looking at a map all the forests in UP seem to be in the now separate Uttarakhand. Aside from a few forested areas on the border with MP, I can't find any others.

[Mort Walker]

SwamyGaru,

Well, I too am for a UP split, but only western and eastern UP. The only reason is to deny corrupt politicos like Mayawati and Mulayam undo influence. I doubt these characters could get elected in the west UP. The west capital should be Agra and east should be Allahabad.

The reason forests got brought up is because some people here were talking about a 4-state division of UP along with a division of MP and possibly MH. IMO a division of MH & MP will lead to trouble for the central Indian forests. I'll talk about this in another post, since I have to go, but I would ask that you look at the following:

1. Total sq. km area of central Indian forests, including the national parks and buffer areas, and see how they currently extend across various states.
2. Differences between large grazing animals and predator animals like the big cats. In 2010, I had seen an attempt to reintroduce the cheetah in these forests, when it had disappeared some time back.
3. The total number of endangered species.
4. What types of forests are these? That is deciduous dry or moist forests?
5. Development activities in buffer areas and importantly impact on water resources.
6. How different state govt. forests depts. (mis)manage these forests and parks. (Hint, take your long lenses and spend a week in such places looking for tigers. I got the chance for several unique sightings in MP.).
7. The supreme court may close some of these parks for tourism due to over development of buffer areas and because the states have mismanaged national parks.

[nachiket]

^^So you agree that the forests argument does not apply to UP at least.

[Satya_anveshi]

Atri ji,
relax and don't bother. "becoming dharmik" was explicitly qualified with "escaping the clutches of EJ". that should be enough explanation. basically, break free of the EJ disease that is creeping up in AP. no need to get into hairsplitting arguments with Stan where most of the posts are vainglorious attempts at showing up self-knowledge and mocking all others.....

Hello....get a grip on yourself man...slow down. First you do personal assistantship to Atri ji suggesting him to 'relax' and not bother with reply to my post; and then you confuse me with Stan ji just as you do with explicit reference to Telangana with AP. What is/was the role of EJs in Telangana (no..not talking about AP here) because of the context he said was in the statehood to T?

[Stan_Savljevic]

What does Mayawati stand to gain by pushing for the division?
What does Harit in Harit Pradesh mean?

[chaanakya]

Maya splits U.P. poll scene wide open

the Cabinet, presided over by Chief Minister Mayawati, on Tuesday approved the division of the State?into Purvanchal (eastern region), Bundelkhand, Avadh Pradesh (central region) and? Paschim Pradesh (western region).

Though the government has not announced how the State will be divided, it is likely that the 75 districts will be split with Bundelkhand getting seven districts, Avadh Pradesh 23, Purvanchal 28 and Paschim Pradesh the remaining 17. If this were to happen, U.P. would lose its political pre-eminence and its four parts would be behind Maharashtra with 48 MPs in the Lok Sabha, followed by West Bengal and Andhra Pradesh with 42 each, Bihar with 40 and Tamil Nadu with 39.

Ms. Mayawati announced that a resolution would be tabled in the winter session of the Assembly, beginning November 21, and it would be forwarded to the Centre. “Since the creation of new States under Article 3 of the Constitution can be done only with the Central government's approval, a positive response to the Bahujan Samaj Party government's proposal is expected from the Centre,” she told journalists after the Cabinet meeting. The decision had been taken “on popular demand.”

“Small States and administrative units facilitated better and integrated development.” U.P., as she stressed, accounted for 16 per cent of the country's population — 19.95 crore, according to the 2011 Census — and was spread over 2.41 lakh square kilometres.

Interestingly, her decision to move a House resolution on the creation of four small States comes four years after she first proposed such a division at a public meeting on October 9, 2007. Of course, earlier, she had spoken only of trifurcating the State into Purvanchal, Paschim Pradesh and Bundelkhand.

No harit Pradesh , any way.

[chaanakya]

Well, I too am for a UP split, but only western and eastern UP. The only reason is to deny corrupt politicos like Mayawati and Mulayam undo influence. I doubt these characters could get elected in the west UP. The west capital should be Agra and east should be Allahabad.

The reason forests got brought up is because some people here were talking about a 4-state division of UP along with a division of MP and possibly MH. IMO a division of MH & MP will lead to trouble for the central Indian forests. I'll talk about this in another post, since I have to go, but I would ask that you look at the following:

1. Total sq. km area of central Indian forests, including the national parks and buffer areas, and see how they currently extend across various states.
2. Differences between large grazing animals and predator animals like the big cats. In 2010, I had seen an attempt to reintroduce the cheetah in these forests, when it had disappeared some time back.
3. The total number of endangered species.
4. What types of forests are these? That is deciduous dry or moist forests?
5. Development activities in buffer areas and importantly impact on water resources.
6. How different state govt. forests depts. (mis)manage these forests and parks. (Hint, take your long lenses and spend a week in such places looking for tigers. I got the chance for several unique sightings in MP.).
7. The supreme court may close some of these parks for tourism due to over development of buffer areas and because the states have mismanaged national parks.

Well if you agreed for a split then your comment earlier was in bad taste. And looks like Mayavati doesn't want your suggestions. She has already passed cabinet resolution for trifurcation.

There would be no issues regarding forests. Forests lands are contiguous in many states including ones cited by you. It had not caused problem in formation of states. Any way UP does not have much forest cover.All your questions are useless in the context of any possible split nor will it be considered as such.

The effect of Mayavati's announcement would be to electrify the poll scenario and to put congress on defensive. I am yet to see popular demand for split but this is going to be debated in coming years. Ultimately it is Parliament which would decide.

And for your info, I disapprove of your calling "Madrassi" when it is perceived as derogatory by many here.You should apologise to members whose sentiments are hurt.

[Airavat]

Division plan not in tune with demands

The blueprint for the division of Uttar Pradesh under chief minister Mayawati's consideration is substantially different from the 30-year-old demand of people who have been spearheading the smaller state movement. Raja Bundela, who has floated his own party, Bundelkhand Congress, to contest the election on the issue of statehood for the region, says: "The state government apparently wants to carve out Bundelkhand without adding the districts of Madhya Pradesh." (Bundelkhand as a geographical region straddles both the states.)

According to Bundela, who is also convener of the National Front for New States, Harit Pradesh (Paschim Pradesh) may not see the light of the day. The original Harit Pradesh idea includes the Rohilkhand region, but it seems that now Rohilkhand will stay in Awadh Pradesh.

What does Mayawati stand to gain by pushing for the division?
What does Harit in Harit Pradesh mean?

"Harit" is green or flourishing (in terms of agriculture the region is dominated by the Jat community). The Green Revolution is translated into Hindi as "Harit Kranti"

[SwamyG]

Mort saar.... here is the forest cover as per Forest Survey of India's annual report. And the state of forest cover change between 2005 and 2007.



Irrespective of the split, if the States carry out development then they would impact the Forest. Do you think the States will not have an uniform policies in preserving and growing forests? What would be different from 2 states vs 4 states that concerns you?

[niran]

What does Mayawati stand to gain by pushing for the division?
What does Harit in Harit Pradesh mean?

Mayawati no direct gain, INC direct gain, see this is known that grab UP, AP, Karnatak
and you form a gobermound in dilli, whatever, however, INC people make a show for UP the
Miano clan knows that INC is finished at least for the coming decade, and BJP has every chance
of making a come back, what to do? simpool onree, just divide UP and slay the BJP monster.

[niran]

This "for development" onree is just fat load of rubbish, Chakia district which is the border of UP and Bihar
is just 40 minutes away from Lucknow by helicopter, Deoria another border district is 1 hour 20 minutes
Basti, Gonda district bordering Nepal are just 1 hour away, and in this age where every street sweeper and his
dog are totting mobile phones this communication difficulty is stinkier lager load of rubbish.

[Muppalla]

This "for development" onree is just fat load of rubbish, Chakia district which is the border of UP and Bihar
is just 40 minutes away from Lucknow by helicopter, Deoria another border district is 1 hour 20 minutes
Basti, Gonda district bordering Nepal are just 1 hour away, and in this age where every street sweeper and his
dog are totting mobile phones this communication difficulty is stinkier lager load of rubbish.

++100.

The whole theory of small is good for governance is a big bull crap. Implement transportation infrastructure, information technology and then devolve the budgetery and financial powers to districts and nothing else is needed.

This whole reason for small states is to reduce local satraps using the fissures among masses (some genuine but solvable and some triggered). In case of Mayawati's reasoning, the destruction of her opponents is more important and she can divide and conquer over Mulayam. UP's division is the end game for both die-nasty and Mulayam.

BJP should not have problems electorally and it can have some advantages as it can create OBC CM in one or two and a Brahmin in atleast one.

They why are both Congress and BJP opposed to UP division? Both of them still have a dream of a leader (Rahul's son) or some ABV type decendent from UP. Imagine a Modi with 80 seats as his bastion and then there will be no chance of an opposition PM. The whole reasoning is a hope that there could be a future with real one party rule and in that case having a big entity is needed.

From a neutral strategy folks, they see a huge problem in small states as there could be a situation of seventy parties splitting 540 seats with no possibility of coalition. The pulls and pressures will weaken the center like the kremlin in Soviet Union when the chips are down.

I am firmly on the side of no more division of states.

[Mort Walker]

SwammyGaru,

Thanks for the links. To make up for old-growth tree cover loss, states like MP & MH will plant eucalyptus trees or some other trees which on paper will minimize forests loss, but in reality the ecosystem of the cut area has been severely damaged.

A few facts and let's see if we agree on this:

1. India's biodiversity is under severe stress where forest cover exists, but ecosystems have been permanently damaged along with the crucial buffer areas of national parks.
2. At the current rate of exploitation of the natural resources of forests we will lose entire species within 20-30 years.
3. State governments are inherently corrupt. State forest officials take bribes and look the other way when developers or loggers threaten buffer areas.
4. More states will lead to more forest departments and more individuals in state governments who wish to exploit the natural resources and line their pockets.

So yes, 4 states will be more harmful on forests as there will be more people to loot natural resources with. The example of Veerappan was given on how states couldn't coordinate jurisdiction. Well, Veerappan took advantage of that and was a smuggler of sandal wood and endangered animals. In some states like MP, thanks to public awareness, conservationists have been watching the actions of state forest departments very closely. Even then, improper development of buffer areas is going on such as hotels/resorts when the local villages don't have adequate drinking water.

[Mort Walker]

This "for development" onree is just fat load of rubbish, Chakia district which is the border of UP and Bihar
is just 40 minutes away from Lucknow by helicopter, Deoria another border district is 1 hour 20 minutes
Basti, Gonda district bordering Nepal are just 1 hour away, and in this age where every street sweeper and his
dog are totting mobile phones this communication difficulty is stinkier lager load of rubbish.

I agree. I'm only interested in getting rid of Mayawati and Mulyam. If nothing, lets get rid of all of Mayawati's statues once you cross east of the Yamuna in to UP.