India-China News and Discussion

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 16 Nov 2011 04:34

rohitvats wrote:You know what, for all the deep wisdom and thoughfullness that people on this forum ascribe to China, it is all actually, in hakim sahab speak, sun-tzutiapanty. I mean, what has the chinese received by needling India? The staple visa, presence in POK and associated nonsense. In five years time, it is going to find 8-9 new and additional divisions - on top of existing 8 divisions. Plus, the air component. I mean, if you can actually scare the politicians and babus into action, you must have done something really-really bad. So much for foresight!!!

Awesomely put. +1 only. Sorry for re-quoting the entire post but, was worth it IMHO....

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Nov 2011 04:52

Jimi & Shankara, lay off each other. Do no discuss trivial matters. Will issue a warning if this trend continues.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Nov 2011 06:31

With China in mind, India tests new-generation Agni missile with high 'kill efficiency

NEW DELHI: India on Tuesday successfully tested a new-generation Agni missile with a strike range of 3,500 km and souped-up "kill efficiency", prompting excited defence scientists to proclaim it would add "fantastic deterrence" to the country's nuclear weapons programme.

The test of the "most advanced" surface-to-surface missile called Agni-IV also launched the countdown for India to test its most ambitious strategic missile Agni-V, which will have near ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities with an over 5,000-km range, in December-January.

"This test has paved the way for the success of Agni-V mission, which will be launched shortly," said DRDO's chief controller (missiles and strategic systems) Avinash Chander.

Incidentally, the project director for Agni-IV is none other than Tessy Thomas, the 48-year-old DRDO scientist who has made a mark for herself in the avowedly male bastion of strategic missiles, as reported by TOI earlier.
.....
......

Having inducted the Pakistan-specific Agni-I (700-km) and Agni-II (over 2,000-km) missiles, the armed forces are now in the process of operationalising the 3,500-km Agni-III after completion of its developmental and pre-induction trials last year.
....
....

The two-stage Agni-IV and three-stage Agni-V, in turn, are meant to add some much-needed credible deterrence muscle against China, which has a massive nuclear arsenal with missiles like the 11,200-km Dong Feng-31A capable of hitting any Indian city. The canister-launch Agni-V, with its high road mobility and fast-reaction ability, in particular, is being talked about as a small but sharp riposte to China.

The Agni-IV represents a significant step towards this objective. Though it was tested for a 3,000-km range from a road-mobile launcher at Wheeler's Island off the Odisha coast at 9 am on Tuesday, it can easily go up to 3,500 km.

"The missile, with a payload reduced to 800 kg from 1,000 kg, followed its trajectory, attained a height of about 900 km and reached the pre-designated target in Bay of Bengal with very high level of accuracy after a 20-minute flight," said a DRDO scientist.

"Much lighter in weight than Agni-II and Agni-III, Agni-IV is an entirely new missile with two stages of solid propulsion and a payload with re-entry heat shield. All mission objectives were fully met. All systems functioned perfectly till the end encountering re-entry temperatures of over 3,000 degree Celsius," he added.

member_20021 · Post by **member_20021** » 16 Nov 2011 10:16

chaanakya wrote:With China in mind, India tests new-generation Agni missile with high 'kill efficiency

It is nothing new really..NY times has just run an article reporting that India does everything with China in mind. Nothing wrong with it. China has it, why not India. Set the goal, do it and more importantly, finish it well. A strong, prosperous, and confident India benefits peace in the region in long term.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 16 Nov 2011 14:57

China/India Cold War warming up in the Maldives: Reuters

China made its present felt throughout the SAARC summit. The post-summit giveaway bag included porcelain pens and diaries from the Chinese Foreign Affairs Ministry detailing “Five Years of China-SAARC Cooperation.” A box for a new 40-inch TV in the media center bore a sticker: “China Aid.”

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Nov 2011 21:42

5,000-km range Agni-V to be test-fired in February

the Defence Research and Development Organistaion will launch the 5,000-km version of the nuclear capable missile after three months as part of strengthening India’s deterrence capabilities.

“Agni-V is presently undergoing integration and we may test fire it by the end of February next year. It is right on schedule and the successful test of Agni-IV will prove to be a building block in development of this missile,” DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat said in New Delhi on Wednesday.

Addressing a press conference, Mr. Saraswat talked about India’s missiles programme and developing effective deterrence capability against adversaries.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:20

New replies from China, turned red if contains your name.
if you want to reply someone, just quote and reply.

奥利斯托：

看了大家很多评论很遗憾没有看到建立在他人角度上理解外国人的思维模式我们中国人绝大部分都是非常务实的所以对精神或心灵上得需求看重得不是太多但并不表示其他国家的人不注重这一项
印度是注重这一块可能他们对这些需求跟我们需要吃的好穿的暖一样重要这种宗教或意识形态（我并不是太了解不能表达的太具体）或者这种印度的思想在他们的一般百姓里是根深蒂固的（死后入葬恒河水什么的无贬义）就像我们这边农村的旧俗跟习惯对我们来说这种思想是常识对他们来说民主思想什么的可能也是他们的常识吧

翻译贴第一w篇 Christopher Sidor这个人的回答我能感觉到他说的意思大概是什么印度并不是像我们中国一样有中国这种概念在早期他们是由很多不同国家不同民族构成的民主这种公投概念可以很好的把他们的人民联合起来有统一国家的概念和好处
说起来我是从小到大没有见过一张选票也没见过民主到底是什么东西大家挤破头想当公务员这样就可以大搞灰色收入官商勾结政府强拆剥削弱势群体我们这边的省政府门口常常有人拉条幅喊冤读门口屡见不选如果这些人有真正民主的选票会不会好一点呢？
这些都是好的地方说不定我们没有实施所以并不知道罢了

至于佛教小说《西游记》里都说唐三藏去西天取经了佛教是从印度传过来了无可厚非也没必要解释佛教跟现在印度佛教区别大了人家有点自豪的东西宣传宣传我们一口否认有点小家子气了啊...
我对印度不是太了解希望可以被翻译过去吧！理解不同国家的思想与文化真的很有趣

After reading so many comments of you guys, I found it is a pity that I did not see any opinions that based on others’ position and understand the way how foreigners thinking. Most Chinese people are very pragmatic, so they are not regarding the needs on mental and spirit as very important things, while people from other nations might be totally different.
India, as a best example, have different needs from us, they may consider the needs on mental and spirit are the same important things as food and clothes. It is deep rooted in their mind. Just like some old customs in our rural areas. Some knowledge to us is common sense, just like the democracy means common sense to them as well.

To Christopher Sidor
I can feel what you want to say. India is quite different from China, it is consisted of a series of nations, the voting right can combined these nations as a integrated country, it is good for them.
I am one of those who has never seen votes before, and also haven’t seen the so-called democracy. Everyone around me wants to be a government officer. So that they can earn some gray income (illegal profits), bully on vulnerable groups. It is quite common to see people against the government by holding banners. If these people could have votes, will the situation gets better?
All these are the good parts of democracy, maybe it is just because we did not implemented, so we don’t know.
According to Buddhism, it has mentioned in our famous ancient novel “journey to the west”, people went to India for their Buddhist faith. It is not necessary to explain to Indian people that Buddhism in China today is much different from theirs. They are proud of it, just let it go.
I don’t know much about India, hope this could be translated to India anyway! Understanding cultures and thoughts from different countries is really interesting.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:25

Ivanev wrote: Conflict is always available as you always have a choice in life, not to hark innocence when you are having wet dreams of conquering the world. Example: China has boundary disputes with all her neighbors. All! Got my point boy!

gaoyang697：

首先，有个基本的国际政治常识是我们讨论的基础，中国并不是和所有的邻国都有领土争议，我们和俄罗斯、中亚诸国、蒙古（或许国内有些人对于蒙古分裂有些其他的想法，但是中国政府和蒙古政府并没有领土争议）、朝鲜、缅甸、老挝，这些国家或许曾经和中国有过领土争议，但是经过双方的努力，现在已经解决。
我注意到一件事，就是现在和中国有着领土纠纷的国家中，印度是个异类，譬如说我们和越南、菲律宾在南海有着争端，但是没有问题，我们在谈判，不管谈判进程如何，起码说明我们和对方都意识到了这个问题，那就是“我们双方存在着领土争端”。但是印度不一样，目前的现状是中国认为存在领土争端，而印度却并不承认这点，这种“我认为是，所以是”（认为争端不存在，所有有争议的地方都属于印度）的思维方式不仅体现在中印边界问题上，在印巴克什米尔问题上，印方所持的都是与之类似的观点，这对印度与周边国家的关系均产生了很大的负面影响。

自1955年万隆会议开始至今，中国在解决边境问题上的政策是一贯的，即首先声明那些区域尚未划定，需要鉴别；之后以协定的形式维持现状；在未来时机成熟时进行谈判。至今为止，中国与周边国家（譬如缅甸尼泊尔巴基斯坦阿富汗蒙古俄罗斯等国家）在解决划界问题上都取沿袭了这一模式。这是一个负责任的国家应该采取的态度，那种据不承认双方之间对于某个问题存在争端，以为闭上眼睛采取看不见的方式就能解决问题的态度和方法是极其幼稚的、不负责任的。

To Ivanev
First, having a basic international political common sense is the basis of our discussion. China did not have boundary disputes will all its neighbours. We are fine with Russia, middle Asian countries, Mongolia, North Korea, Burma and Laos, some of them might has problems with China, but now we solved these problems.
One noted me that is in countries have boundary disputes with us, India is different from the rest. For example, we have boundary issues with Philippines and Vietnam in South China Sea, but we are negotiating, disregard the process, at least all of us aware there is something wrong with our boundary (which means the land might be either yours of ours). But India is not like this. The current issue is we Chinese think there exists some boundary disputes, but Indians did not think so, they considered all the lands are theirs, this attitude also appeared in Kashmir issue with Pakistan. This attitude made a great negative effort on all Indian neighbours.
Since Bandung Conference in 1955, China sticks to its boundary strategies. It is declaring that these lands are not delimited, it still needs negotiation. China using this strategy solved a series of boundary issues with its neighbours like Russia, Burma, Pakistan, Mongolia etc.) This is the attitude of a responsible country. On the other side, India seems did it in a naive way.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:26

奥斯维辛:

如果可以的话，这些话帮我翻译到三锅的论坛去

民主是结果不是原因，所谓的多向发展更多的是利益分歧吧，多党执政实际上就是自己人在跟自己人掐架，很明显的一种内耗非常大，效率相当低的体制。
或许西方发达国家很喜欢这种政治平衡，但是，作为后发国家就要有后发国家的觉悟，既然想要真正在国际上抬起头来就应该咬牙逼自己一把，把生产力搞上去，而不是握着选民票乐呵呵地在床上躺着描绘未来。
制度只是一种工具，当成信仰你就输了，中国人之所以不拒绝专制是因为我们的中华历史一再证明，只有专制才能才能达到集体的最大效率，才是富国强民的最大动力，而西方的民主制度，说句难听的，那只是中国在两千多年前就淘汰掉的制度，因为它只适合统治小部分人。
如今你可以看到，在专制调控夏的中国发展的迅速，中国伟大的政府带着十三亿的人民在一起奔跑，完成了一个个目标，使中国人生活水平不断提高。
事实证明，中国人没有选错，专制只是牺牲了中国前几代和这几代人的汗水，而留给子孙的是一个美好的明天，正如中国的一句老话：穷不过三代。只要我们中国人继续努力下去，我们就能拿回我们丢失的一切。

最后，就给个意见，如果想成为中国的对手，印度需要的不是甘地，而是秦始皇，或许在吸毒一般地民主下，你们永远不知觉醒。

Plz translate my comment if possible.
The democracy is a result, not a reason. Developing in various ways actually means divergence of views on profits. Multi-party system in another word is people fighting with themselves. This system causes much internal friction, and is very inefficient.
Perhaps western people like this kinda political balance, however, as a developing country, we should know what is the most important, if we really want to be a big country in the world, we should focus on improving our productivity, but not hold the votes and make dreams on bed.
Political institution and system is just a tool, regarding it as a faith means you went to a wrong way.
Chinese people do not refuse the autocracy, it is because our history has proved time and time again that only autocracy can achieve the most efficient collective society. This is the biggest motivation of becoming rich and powerful. The democracy system, to be frankly, is what China has abandoned thousand years ago; it can only rule the minor people in a country.
Today, as you can see, in the autocratic China, economy developing rapidly, the great China government running towards our goals, one by one, improving people’s life quality, again and again.
The facts proved Chinese people Made a right choice. The autocracy is only a process, Chinese people has a bright future! If we keep working like this, we can get everything we lost in the past.
Finally, an advice for you. If India wants to defeat China, you need a powerful emperor but not Gandhi. Perhaps you will never wake up from you democratic dream.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:27

tyibm2:
无聊的交流，因为国内有一大帮的印度粉导致我对印度无感，真希望这些印度粉去印度平民窟

Boring communication, so many India fans in China, which make me feel uncomfortable with this country, hope these India fans can go to Indian slums.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:27

Sknight:

中国想要征服世界？这一定又是三哥从美爹那里听来的吧。六百多年前我们有这样的机会，但是我们并没这么干。郑和所到之处没有殖民和抢掠，只有交流和贸易。哦对了，当年郑和还到过印度的古里也就是现在的卡利卡特市，并且在那里病逝。后来葡萄牙人也到了那里，但是他们殖民了印度，不知三哥对此有何感想。

What? China is going to conquer the world? You hear it from the US? We had such a chance 600 years ago, but we didn’t do it. Our ships brought trade and communication to where they went, but no robbery and colony. Oh, nearly forget, one of our famous captains ZHEN HE used to been in Calicut at that time, and finally died of an illness there. Soon the Portuguese got there as well and unfortunately, they colonized the place. What do you think now?

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:27

Voloin:

我想问印度人的问题：

有没有印度人很喜欢的网站？我们这里人人皆可翻墙，但是不知道该浏览什么样的网站才能了解真实的印度。

如果这个小小的奢望能够得到满足，我想看到关于对印度普通百姓生活的真实记录。我对印度的印象，最初来自于印度的歌舞剧，这些文化令人很着迷。之后出现了信息断层，关于印度的新闻总是与军事有关。现在好不容易有个这个通道，所以如果有可能的话，我想找到真正能够代表印度人生活的实录信息，而不是重温《贫民窑的百万富翁》的猎奇后遗症。谢谢！

I have some questions for Indian friends:
In India, is there a website that all Indians like to say something on it? We want to hear the real voice from Indians.
If this little wish could come true, I’d like to see the real record of Indian common people’s life. My impression of India was originally from your singing and dancing movies, these cultures were fascinating. However, soon after that, I always heard of the news about India that related to military. I want to communicate with Indian people and know more about them by this channel, but not watching “Slumdog Millionaire” time and time again.
Thank you very much!

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:29

Ivanev wrote: Conflict is always available as you always have a choice in life, not to hark innocence when you are having wet dreams of conquering the world. Example: China has boundary disputes with all her neighbors. All! Got my point boy!

红领巾:
中国曾经确实拥有政府世界的能力中国没这么做我相信中国以后也会有征服世界的能力他依然不会这么做就像几千年来的中国一样是不是你们印度人都觉得强大的国家就一定要征服世界的么？中国确实和许多国家有领土争议印度也是俄罗斯也是还有以色列英国法国…… 至于所以邻国都有.. 我不想冒犯你无知..等你确定能数清楚中国有多少个邻国再来发表你的言论

To Ivanev:
I am whom you replied, I wanna say, Chiese government actually used to have the ability to conquer the world, but China did not do it, I believe in the future China will also have the same ability and it will still not do it. Just like what China has done in the past thousands years. Do you Indian people all think that a powerful country must conquer the world? China indeed has a lot of boundary disputes with other countries, but not EVERY! I don’t want to offend you, but you’d better come back when you can count clearly how many neighbours China have.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:30

PrasadZ wrote: Wang from shanghai called shen ting in hong kong to tell her "there is only one communist party. It is not like supermarket outlets where you can go to one after another"

I reflect the displeasure that most chinese, themselves, feel towards the CPC. Chinese, i meet, are proud of their countries' achievements and give the CPC little praise. On forums, you are nationalist and confuse CPC with the nation

一蓑烟雨:

印度人明显不理解中国人
天天说爱国不爱党的知识一少部分人
大多人是挑党的毛病但是却不反党
印度人为何不问问对TG不满的人有多少要反党的
这就像一个厨师总是被指责，但是并不是说换了厨师就不会被指责
众口难调

To PrasadZ:
Indians obviously don't understand Chinese.
Most people in China they just want to blame something on CCP cuz they did not good enough, but they never against the CCP, it’s like a cook is always blamed by customers, change another one won't make it better, people just taste differ.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:31

PrasadZ wrote: Shanghai has not had indians trained by the army bombing them. Bombay has pakistans trained by the army doing so. If this qualitative difference is unknown and unacknowledged, we can only blame the CPC which promotes pakistan as a good friend to the chinese. Do note indians blame the govt, not the people. Chinese visiting both india and pakistan would note no extra friendship or enmity on either side of the border.

飘的日子:

抱歉，但是袭击关中国什么事情呢？这是你们两国的矛盾不是吗，为什么要扯进第三国？我的意思是说，你也许觉得对面的邻居很可恨，但是不能因为你恨他，所以你规定世界上所有的人不能和他说话。那样明显太以自我为中心了。

另外，巴基斯坦人的确对中国人很友好，而印度人防备心理很重，不是吗？同样的做生意，巴基斯坦人会欢迎并且采取措施鼓励投资，印度人则会怀疑中国人是间谍。

To PrasadZ:
Sorry, but the attack to India is none of China’s business, it’s your own conflicts, right? Why you have to pull us into your business. I mean maybe you found your neighbour is quite annoying, but you don’t allow everyone in the world to talk with him, isn’t it kinda selfishness?
In addition, Pakistan people are very friendly to Chinese, while Indians are the opposite. When we doing business with each other, the Pakistanis will welcome us and encourage the investment and Indians will consider us as spies.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:32

727055584:

可怜的三锅到现在还不明白，民主是让人民生活的更好更自由的手段而不是目的。我们应该不是为了民主而民主，让手段变为目的，使目的让位于手段是最可笑最可悲的事。

Indians still don't understand, the democracy is only a tool that can make people live a better life but not a goal. We should not chasing democracy for democracy, you changed the tool into the goal, it is ridiculous.

member_20187 · Post by **member_20187** » 16 Nov 2011 23:33

New replies from China showed above, turned red if contains your name.
if you want to reply to someone, just quote and reply.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Nov 2011 23:51

ltaakat wrote:To PrasadZ:
Sorry, but the attack to India is none of China’s business, it’s your own conflicts, right? Why you have to pull us into your business. I mean maybe you found your neighbour is quite annoying, but you don’t allow everyone in the world to talk with him, isn’t it kinda selfishness?
In addition, Pakistan people are very friendly to Chinese, while Indians are the opposite. When we doing business with each other, the Pakistanis will welcome us and encourage the investment and Indians will consider us as spies.

If the neighbor of India is terrorizing India, can any country ignore it? If tomorrow Pakistan terrorizes ChJina, what will Chinese feel if India preaches peace and gives Pakistan ability to humiliate China in restive Xinjiang? Is it not selfish and cruel to supply a country with weapons that terrorizes others?

Is it proper to call a country like Pakistan 'friend'? How civilized it is to supply such a country with nuclear weapons?

If Indian military walks over some Chinese side in South China, like how Chinese military is present in Indian J&K state, will China feel bad of good about India?

If India claims Xinjiang and Guangzhou districts as ours, you will not feel good, will you?

PrasadZ · Post by **PrasadZ** » 17 Nov 2011 04:33

ltaakat wrote:
PrasadZ wrote: Shanghai has not had indians trained by the army bombing them. Bombay has pakistans trained by the army doing so. If this qualitative difference is unknown and unacknowledged, we can only blame the CPC which promotes pakistan as a good friend to the chinese. Do note indians blame the govt, not the people. Chinese visiting both india and pakistan would note no extra friendship or enmity on either side of the border.

To PrasadZ:
Sorry, but the attack to India is none of China’s business, it’s your own conflicts, right? Why you have to pull us into your business. I mean maybe you found your neighbour is quite annoying, but you don’t allow everyone in the world to talk with him, isn’t it kinda selfishness?
In addition, Pakistan people are very friendly to Chinese, while Indians are the opposite. When we doing business with each other, the Pakistanis will welcome us and encourage the investment and Indians will consider us as spies.

Let me turn your logic back on you : india says "south china sea" is actually "east asia sea" and belongs to vietnam. India further supports, encourages and provides nukes to deter chinese aggression. Since this dispute is an "internal matter" of china, chinese should not blame india. Am i right?

To others on that forum : please think about how you are perceived based on your friends. Pakistan has no friend in the west today because it has never been a friend to any. It has been a religious and social nightmare as a country, even though people in pakistan do not differ in any real way from indians. China supports the military in pakistan, not its people. That support will receive indian anger.

By the way, i do have enough chinese friends to note how they speak about cpc and i know they think there is no choice. Ridiculous !! Different political parties allow different opinions to form and allows country to change policy when wrong. Cpc never admits its wrong and only modifies, never changes policy. It never learns from its mistake. Its chinese only in name, none of my friends think they are always right and know whats best

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 17 Nov 2011 04:36

ltaakat (forwarded) wrote: To PrasadZ:
Sorry, but the attack to India is none of China’s business, it’s your own conflicts, right? Why you have to pull us into your business. I mean maybe you found your neighbour is quite annoying, but you don’t allow everyone in the world to talk with him, isn’t it kinda selfishness?
In addition, Pakistan people are very friendly to Chinese, while Indians are the opposite. When we doing business with each other, the Pakistanis will welcome us and encourage the investment and Indians will consider us as spies.

Analogies have their limitations.

Perhaps Chinese people consider the supply of deadly nuclear weapons to Pakistan as mere business. So be it. However, as a member of the United Nations Security Council, China also blocked several UN resolutions to impose sanctions against the Pakistani terrorist group (Jamaat-ud-dawa) responsible for the Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008.

A more accurate analogy is the following: it is as though I am protecting your neighbour even though I know that he is a violent criminal who hurt your family and keeps threatening you.

You further mention that the "Pakistani people" are "friendly" towards China while Indians consider Chinese as "spies".

If I am protecting a criminal, is it surprising that this criminal becomes my pet and does whatever I ask him to do? He may be "friendly" to me but what kind of a friend is he, to me or to anyone?

Now, suppose I try to be friendly with you. Are you really going to welcome me with open arms and tell me "I know you're very friendly with that criminal who hurt me and my family, but never mind"? Aren't you instead going to keep me at a distance and wonder what my intentions are?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 17 Nov 2011 05:16

Itaakat:

To all those claiming Democracy is a means (tool) and not the end (goal), well, you could say the same thing about various freedoms then. By that logic, freedom of the press is only a tool, freedom of thought and expression is only a tool, freedom of ownership of property, freedom to retain your earnings and wages from hard work is only a tool and so on. It will never end. The freedom to decide for oneself what is worthwhile in life and to pursue it, relatively unhindered, is not a tool. It is the end-goal itself. And it cannot come about when the other freedoms are denied. Just like you cannot build a house without making the foundation first.

The point of democracy is that the state derives its power and its legitimacy from the consent of the people. Period. Every 5 years, power devolves and flows back to the people, literally so, before a new set of trustees can be elected to manage the house for the next 5. The state and its managers are in no doubt where their privileges and powers come from - from the consent of the people - and what their mandate is - to implement the will of the people, to consult the people on major changes in direction and so on. Democracy also forces the state to be open and in the process risk vulnerabilities but that is a whole other story. It prevents the state from becoming the sovereign. The sovereign is the will of the people. Nothing else.

Sure, its an imperfect system but its the only one where the law applies to everyone (there is no communist party that is above questioning, reproach, criticism or law) at least in theory if not, often, in practice.

Anyway, I can already see that my arguments won't convince anybody. One cannot wake up somebody pretending to be asleep.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Nov 2011 13:00

Hari Seldon ji,

well said! Only a Democracy can throw up a legitimate government! Period! Now the democratic process in some countries may be faulty and may need improvement, but it still is far more legitimate than any other method.

The difference is between the ruler having a mandate from the citizen to represent the citizen versus a ruler who can only claim to represent the citizen with a few citizens buying into the propaganda.

Right now PRC is ruled by a gang without any legitimacy. Other governments deal with the gang because they have no other choice, and not because other governments feel that they are dealing with the representatives of the Chinese people.

Ultimately it is the Chinese people who need to understand, that they are under occupation by a gang, and this gang would in the future push Chinese people into various wars, which they may not want but would have to accept their consequences.

It is a huge humiliation if somebody is speaking on your behalf, without your permission! It is pure submissiveness! And an authoritarian regime tries to compensate this feeling of submissiveness by the citizen by pumping up nationalistic fervor and threatening other countries and peoples. By linking up to this manufactured mood, the citizen feels stronger. But it is simply a mirage.

By tolerating the rule by the CCP, the Chinese people have in fact shown that they are submissive drones.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Nov 2011 16:27

Any non democratic set up makes the subjects/Citizens as Beggars since what they get is not their right but benevolence of Rulers. Even though subjects may be well of they are , just , well off beggars. That way Chinese are beggars as long as their ruling set up is non democratic. Oh some of them are well off beggars no doubt.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Nov 2011 17:50

ltaakat wrote:In addition, Pakistan people are very friendly to Chinese, while Indians are the opposite.

I hope this Chinese poster knows history dating even prior to Indian Independence and upto 1962, both with regards to India and also Pakistan. Something happens and that changes things around.

When we doing business with each other, the Pakistanis will welcome us and encourage the investment and Indians will consider us as spies.

Then, how come the trade today is what it is ? The Chinese are also quite suspicious of Indians. It is not a one-way street and I do not find any unreasonableness in being suspicious of a country that is inimical in nature and helps the enemy with WMDs that can be used only against it. Though friendly relations will lead to a lot of business, the converse need not be true. India-China trade is already a good example of that. It is in Pakistan that Chinese engineers and personnel have been abducted, killed and harassed; where Islamist terrorists are being trained for attacking the Xinjiang province.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 17 Nov 2011 18:14

OK, TOI-LeT is reporting this:

Lecturer creates Panda poo tea

A college lecturer has created a new type of tea made out of panda poo, which he hopes to sell for £50,000 per kilo.

Hmmm. So all the great lecturer has to donow is to link it somehow to Mao or Deng or something and it'll become an H&D issue for the CPC. Then CPC will buy all the panda poo tea in the world at a premium, why just 50k lbs/ton.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Nov 2011 21:43

Indian Air Force to reactivate airfield in Arunachal Pradesh tomorrow(18/11/2011)

NEW DELHI: Against the backdrop of Chinese military infrastructure build up along its borders, India will on Friday activate an airfield in Vijaynagar in Arunachal Pradesh from where it will be able to operate its latest C-130J Hercules transport aircraft.

"The use of this airfield was discontinued in 2009 for carrying out repairs there. The airfield will be reactivated tomorrow by Arunachal Pradesh Governor General (retd) J J Singh," IAF officials said here.

After repairs, the airfield-- situated on the easternmost tip of the country located at the tri-junction of India, China and Myanmar, will be able to operate the C-130J Super Hercules aircraft along with the Antonov-32 cargo planes in the IAF inventory, they added.

The airfield is used for air maintenance and will help in mobilising troops and equipment at a faster pace in times of requirement.

This is the first advanced landing ground (ALG) in the Northeast to be upgraded as part of India's efforts to match Chinese military infrastructure development activities. It is also upgrading ALGs in Pasighat, Mechuka, Walong, Tuting and Ziro as well as several helipads in Arunachal.

IAF has so far activated its ALGs in Ladakh including Nyoma, Daulat Beg Oldi and Fukche and is planning to convert Nyoma in to a full-fledged air base.

India is also planning to raise a new Mountain Strike Corps after raising two new mountain infantry divisions to increase man power in the Northeast.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Nov 2011 21:44

South China sea an area of 'significant concern': Navy chief

NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy feels the South China sea is an area of "significant concern" and developments there will have global implications.

"We are seeing edginess in relations between countries of this region. The potential for conflict in South China Sea and instability in Korean Peninsula have heightened awareness of analysts to region's shortcomings in terms on institutional arrangements to resolve potential crises. The South China Sea is an area of significant concern," Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said at a seminar on national security on Thursday.

The Navy Chief's statement comes in the backdrop of an incident where Beijing had objected over oil exploration in two Vietnamese blocks in the South China Sea by India's ONGC Videsh Ltd (OVL).

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 17 Nov 2011 22:03

chaanakya wrote: IAF has so far activated its ALGs in Ladakh including Nyoma, Daulat Beg Oldi and Fukche and is planning to convert Nyoma in to a full-fledged air base.

India is also planning to raise a new Mountain Strike Corps after raising two new mountain infantry divisions to increase man power in the Northeast.

[/quote]

We need Arty and lots and lots of them. 8000 of those big ass 155 mm guns! deployed all across LoAC. 2 guns every 3 KM.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Nov 2011 22:35

^^Do we have that long a Border with China??
And when did we last purchased 155mm.

Meanwhile...

US naval move in Australia may help India take on China

BEIJING: The US move to create a naval base in northern Australia close to the South China Sea can actually mean more dollars in the Indian kitty, and put more strategic and business opportunities in New Delhi's way, sources said. The first piece of evidence has come by way of Australia's decision to sell uranium to India.

The US move will provide a sense of protection to East Asian countries including Japan, who have serious conflicts with China but buy vast amounts of Chinese goods. The new found protection will encourage East Asia to reduce its dependence on China for goods and enhance economic ties with India, sources said.

"Japan, Vietnam and Indonesia will feel more secure. India and Indonesia can get together to control the Malacca Straits, which is the route though which 90% of Chinese goods to East Asia passes," Subramanian Swamy, Janata Party president and a widely regarded China expert, told TNN.

There are signs that China is jittery about the US move to station 2,500 US marines in the Northern Territory of Australia within five years. Beijing on Thursday warned Australia it might get "caught in the crossfire" if it allows the US to exercise its naval might in the waters around it. Washington's move has put the US navy within easy sailing reach of Vietnam, which is involved in a serious territorial dispute over oil-rich islands in the South China Sea.

The move will also bring some relief to the ONGC, which is one of the foreign companies involved in exploring oil along with Vietnamese oil firms in the South China Sea. China has bitterly criticized India on the move and asked ONGC to withdraw.

When it comes to exporting to East Asia, India cannot replace China, which has a wide range of goods to offer, Uday Bhaskar, director of the National Maritime Foundation, said.

"But there is a strategic review of the bilateral relation with India by the US, EU and Japan, wherein Indian markets are being recognized as an important driver of trade in the region," Bhaskar added.

India will need to retool its export basket if it seriously wishes to compete with China as a provider of goods in East Asia, he said.

The US move can also mean massive savings in investments being made by the Indian defence agencies on the India-China border, Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, research officer at the Institute of Conflict Studies in New Delhi, said.

"This is God sent. The more US ramps up its military presence in South China Sea, the more it will divert Beijing's attention from India," he said.

"It can actually mean a big saving on investments being made on the China border. But I doubt if our defence establishment would make the best of the opportunity. They are too attached to big budget," he said.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 17 Nov 2011 22:54

chaanakya wrote:^^Do we have that long a Border with China??

The Line of Actual Control (LAC) is the effective border between India and People's Republic of China (PRC). The LAC is 4,057-km long and traverses three areas of northern Indian states: western (Ladakh, Kashmir), middle (Uttarakhand, Himachal) and eastern (Sikkim, Arunachal)
Ref:

And when did we last purchased 155mm.

When did we last think of rising two mountain strike corps and rise two mountain divisions. When did we last have operational ALG across LoAC?
Aircraft carrier acquisitions, A/C acquisitions, shortening the induction time for missiles that can strike deep inside panda...to name a few..
Things change and they are changing fast..
We need those arty guns now!

Kukreja · Post by **Kukreja** » 18 Nov 2011 00:15

Chinese man in Tiananmen Square self-immolation protest
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15768036

A man set himself on fire in Beijing's Tiananmen Square last month, the Chinese authorities have confirmed.

Beijing's public security bureau said that the act of self-immolation occurred close to the square's portrait of Chairman Mao.

The 42-year-old man, named only as Wang from Huanggang city in Hubei province, set himself on fire following a legal dispute, officials said.

After receiving hospital treatment he has now recovered from his injuries.

"Around 11am [on] 21st October, 2011, a man, surnamed Wang, walked up to Jinshui Bridge [Golden Water Bridge] and the marble pillars [and] suddenly set his clothes alight," a statement from China's Public Security Bureau said.

"Police on duty at the scene took only 10 seconds to put out the fire and sent him to hospital for treatment."

bksahu · Post by **bksahu** » 18 Nov 2011 01:24

To Itakaat::
Please translate it to mandarin and post it as you are doing it till now. thanks in advance.Appreciate your effort dude.

Pakistan is friendly to whoever gives it free dollars and always ready to toe the line of creditor.That country has a history of military autocracy and calling them friends is a most idiotic thing to do, which west has learned the hard way.
Now the issue of Indians considering chinese as spies, whats wrong in that, you guys are CPC's spies and i think you all are very proud of it. No hard feelings!!
Democracy is not a tool, its a way of life, its a way of nation, its the end result (as put up very nicely by Hari Seldon garu). You guys are saying that you abandoned it thousand of years back, the the fact is YOU NEVER HAD DEMOCRACYYYYYY!!!!!
If CPC has not burnt the history then you may can very well verify it.

About 1962 if you say that "attack to India is none of China’s business, it’s your own conflicts, right" then WHY DID YOU ATTACKED US? Were you high on afeem or lost your thinking ability.
What will you think if we attack you back and destroy your forces and country??

My Point is your actions and words always differ and its difficult to trust you.

Just my thoughts!!!!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Nov 2011 03:47

India allows China to modify Shimla road.

With scant regard for the geo-politics, India has allowed the Chinese to widen and modify, Theog-Kotkhai-Rohru Road, an offshoot of Hindustan-Tibet National Highway, in Shimla.

It is baffling that Rohru is around 100 kilometres away in aerial distance from the Chinese border. The project was sanctioned in June 2008 to a Chinese company, Longijian Roads and Construction Company.

It was then decided that this project will be completed within 36 months. However, when the work for the project commenced, the Chinese company initially worked on the projects for few months.

During this period, the Chinese company widened the road in this apple belt of Himachal. However, later due to some visa issues of the Chinese workers, the project came to a standstill and later on, the work started again.

It is interesting to note that when India feels threatened by the massive and modern infrastructure built by the Chinese right on the Indo-China border and emphasise on boosting border infrastructure.

In the border state of Himachal, the works of broadening of two different roads are given to the Chinese company. However, the allotment of Theog-Rohru Road, which is of great geo-political importance with regard to China, is very surprising.

Sources in the government feel that keeping in mind the unresolved border issues with the China, and the fact that major hydelpower projects of Himachal are not far, allotment of any infrastructure construction to the Chinese, is not a very wise thing to do.

The engineering experts feel that the fact the Chinese, who are usually very efficient in construction of infrastructure, are going very slow with their projects in Himachal, this aspect should also be taken very seriously.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 18 Nov 2011 05:39

Jimi wrote: It is nothing new really..NY times has just run an article reporting that India does everything with China in mind. Nothing wrong with it. China has it, why not India. Set the goal, do it and more importantly, finish it well. A strong, prosperous, and confident India benefits peace in the region in long term.

Now, now, settle down Jimi and cut out the patronizing tone here. That particular Indian newspaper does this to provoke a response like what you did. It is best to ignore that and let itakaat give his best shot at reaching out.

Your patronizing response makes me wonder about "China has it" part. China has what? World is still waiting for that first deterrence patrol by a Chinese SLBM. 30 years is a bit too long for harbor trials. Or your public doesn't care why money is spent on such expensive programs?

partha · Post by **partha** » 18 Nov 2011 06:04

Beijing on Thursday warned Australia it might get "caught in the crossfire" if it allows the US to exercise its naval might in the waters around it.

man.. such arrogance!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2011 07:47

Ties with Beijing no longer guided by border issue alone, say Indian officials

India is not perturbed by reports emanating from Beijing on the supposed Indian military build-up on its border with China and maintained that New Delhi-Beijing relations are no longer guided by the border issue alone.

Senior officials here said on the eve of a bilateral meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, on the sidelines of the East Asia Summit (EAS) in Bali, Indonesia, that relations between the two countries must be evaluated in a larger perspective.

Officials said that given the diversity and range of issues on which India and China had been engaged in the last few months, the relationship could easily be described as a very complex engagement in the world.

“A major element in the ties is the phenomenal growth witnessed in the trade. In the current year so far, the volume of trade has grown by 17 per cent,” the officials said.

They maintained that there were a number of issues on which there was convergence of views between the two countries and cited the example of common position taken on the environment at BRICS at Sanya in China.

They sought to emphasise that notwithstanding the concerns from some quarters from the Chinese side on the supposed Indian consolidation and build-up, there had not been a death on the India-China border since 1975. They said that both sides were engaged in the second stage of talks on a movement forward in resolution of border issues and were close to an agreement on a mechanism to ensure tranquillity on the border.

On trade-related issues, the officials said that there was no cause for alarm and the economic crisis particularly in the western world provided a great opportunity to both sides to strengthen ties.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 18 Nov 2011 08:07

US naval move in Australia may help India take on China

The US move can also mean massive savings in investments being made by the Indian defence agencies on the India-China border, Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, research officer at the Institute of Conflict Studies in New Delhi, said.

"This is God sent. The more US ramps up its military presence in South China Sea, the more it will divert Beijing's attention from India," he said.

"It can actually mean a big saving on investments being made on the China border. But I doubt if our defence establishment would make the best of the opportunity. They are too attached to big budget," he said.

It is amazing the kind of long term view this Iyer-Mitra guy has - Instead of using this opportunity to consolidate and quickly improve the border infrastructure, he is suggesting saving money.. so that when US moves out or changes its posture, we are back to square one.. He is thinking with his US glasses on and not considering the fact that at GDP level we are underspending compared to others.. I guess he would rather clutch a fistful of rupees when Chinese come knocking rather than a gun.

Is this Institute of Conflict Studies a jholawala type thing ??

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2011 08:18

Altair wrote:
chaanakya wrote:^^Do we have that long a Border with China??

The Line of Actual Control (LAC) is the effective border between India and People's Republic of China (PRC). The LAC is 4,057-km long and traverses three areas of northern Indian states: western (Ladakh, Kashmir), middle (Uttarakhand, Himachal) and eastern (Sikkim, Arunachal)
Ref:

And when did we last purchased 155mm.
When did we last think of rising two mountain strike corps and rise two mountain divisions. When did we last have operational ALG across LoAC?
Aircraft carrier acquisitions, A/C acquisitions, shortening the induction time for missiles that can strike deep inside panda...to name a few..
Things change and they are changing fast..
We need those arty guns now!

That would not require 8000 155MM unless we are planning to put them deep in Tibet .

Regarding purchase , I meant Atry is bogged down in Bofors Scandal. Recent tenders are also in trouble. We don't have our own guns which we can produce at will. Lastly, we might have different requirements on LAC front at least in Eastern Sector. I hope Atry gets purchased fast whatever be the numbers.

What we need is more roads and good quality roads for LAC areas. JR was not giving Environment Clearance to BRO. After his removal I hope that issue can now be resolved.Army needs these roads.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 18 Nov 2011 10:00

India-China must ensure 21st century belongs to Asia: Wen

Wen, on his part said: “India and China must work hand-in-hand for development to ensure that the 21st century belongs to Asia.”

“There are enough areas where India and China can extend cooperation to each other,” said Wen.

Earlier, in his opening remarks, the US president referred to his “extraordinary” trip to India during which the two sides strengthened the bonds of friendship, commercial links and security cooperation.

“We continue to make progress on a wide range of issues. The bonds between our two countries are not just at the leadership level but also at personal levels,” said Obama.

Chinese deception at its best. It seems geopolitical ambitions of China (thinking its 2 trillion dollars and trade house) are not receptive to western world and things are moving pretty fast.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 18 Nov 2011 10:01

Itaakat, you can post this on Chinese forums too.

In China, a rediscovery of Sanskrit

Almost two millennia after the language first came to China through Buddhist scriptures, renewed interest in Buddhist studies and recent discoveries of long-forgotten manuscripts in Tibet have sparked a revival of the study of the ancient language among Chinese scholars.

[...]

“I was struck by the interest, of both teachers and scholars, in little details, such as getting the pronunciation perfect. They recited the Bhagavad Gita with me, and it was a unique experience. The pronunciation, the metre [of reciting the verses], was remarkable.”

[...]

Now, for the first time, the programme has a regular annual intake of students at both undergraduate and post-graduate levels, currently training between 50 and 60 students.

[...]

She attributed the recent boost in funding to increasing government support for the humanities, ignored during the People’s Republic’s first three decades when the country’s focus was on development alone.

“Sanskrit research is being viewed with importance now,” she said. “India and China were culturally connected. I don’t think there’s another country in the world where so many Sanskrit works were translated into another language, and this has been going on for more 1,000 years.”

[...]

Yu Huaijin, a PhD student who is studying Kalidasa’s Kumarasambhava, said she joined the programme because she believed it was playing the role of “a bridge between two cultures.”

“India and China are neighbours, but they know little about each other, especially the younger generation. It is a big objective for me to introduce Indian culture and literature to a Chinese audience,” she said.

Few Chinese students are interested in Indian culture, with much greater interest in Western literature. Ms. Yu, too, was first a student of Western literature — until she happened to read a translation of the Mahabharata by Ji Xianlin. “It was a different world,” she said. “And one that few Chinese are aware of.”

Peking University has also begun working with Sanskrit programmes in universities in the West, particularly in Germany, to improve both teaching methods and archiving practices.

Indian universities, have however, appeared to show little interest in taking forward cooperation. Mr. Shastri, who is an honorary professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University, admitted there was “precious little” cooperation between the two countries. There was room for much more, he said, encouraged by the positive response to his teaching methods this past week.

“We want to learn Sanskrit through traditional methods,” one teacher told him. “Not from the West.”