Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

niran · Post by **niran** » 15 Nov 2011 08:09

no saar, a reality check for those waiting for crash report.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 15 Nov 2011 08:35

^^^ They wanted a prayer friendly a/c?

Why didn't they mention that in the specs?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2011 08:49

the pilots manual probably has quranic verses to chant when firing off weapons

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Nov 2011 09:26

They are covering up soemthing

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Nov 2011 09:35

A PAF spokesman said a "jet aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed due to technically inapt handling near Attock" in Punjab.

Hmm. "inapt" handling aye ? Let me throw out a few guess on the crash.

1) The Cheeni FBW "cupped" /"cuppaxed" as they say in the Madrassa (the failing grade was a "U" which looks like a cup, hence the origin of the word)

2) The Cheeni FBW is really not the fully featured FBW with all the bells and whistles like the FBWs on other civilized aircraft, but rather a cut price hack, that does "stability augmentation" in pitch (as it has been pointed out by the Cheeni themselves) and probably lacks the "envelope protection" and "carefree handling" gee-gaws that the other FBW systems have. This means, the pilot flies it really like a conventional aircraft and is fully responsible for envelope and handling limits. This could account for the very short testing cycle (duh.. you don't need to test the huge amount of things, coz you didn't build those features in the first place, and if the yellow matter hits the fan, it is the pilot's problem).

Maybe it is a combination of 1) and 2) , but I would put my money on 2). The pilot probably exceeded the envelope limits and crashed that plane . I am willing to put my money on it. It obviously wasn't a collision into a mountain or flying into the ground kind of thing. The pilot was able to bail out after all.

As for the "Martin Baker" ejection seat, I am not too sure. I suspect it is a repeat of the old Chinese playbook. They would have imported a couple of MB seats and then it would be the cloned "Maltin Bakel" seats on the planes. The Pakis are being willing guinea pigs for the Chinese to test their junk on. Oh well. More PAF pilots are going to "embrace martyrdom" and become "Shaheed".

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 15 Nov 2011 09:43

"inapt" I think the news writer is a fan of the BENIS thread.

Which would be very "inapt" if the ISI got to know about it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2011 09:45

vina wrote:
A PAF spokesman said a "jet aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed due to technically inapt handling near Attock" in Punjab.

It means "Buy our junk. It was pilot error that crashed the plane. No we have not conducted an investigation. We have not even buried the pilot. But we know the exact cause of the accident. Hmm - maybe we ought to cremate the pilot's body instead"

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2011 10:51

vina wrote:
A PAF spokesman said a "jet aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed due to technically inapt handling near Attock" in Punjab.
Hmm. "inapt" handling aye ? Let me throw out a few guess on the crash.

1) The Cheeni FBW "cupped" /"cuppaxed" as they say in the Madrassa (the failing grade was a "U" which looks like a cup, hence the origin of the word)

More PAF pilots are going to "embrace martyrdom" and become "Shaheed".

Bandaar does not FBW, in fact the Chinese, had claimed this in a roundabout way stating, computer malfunction will have no impact on the aircraft controls. It is all analog only.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2011 10:58

the typhoon is said to have a 'limiter' on its FCS that prevents it from doing the kind of stuff the rafale does at treetop level. both would have limiters to prevent huge departures from the limits when in controlled flight. infact all modern a/c would have such limiters for safety, incl civilian planes like B737 that limit the max bank angle in a turn to around 25' (for P8 poseidon they changed that to 45' for mil ops)

as the saying goes - cut rate 'startup mode' delivery gets something out of the door quickly but is not a fun thing to support. the smart chaps do the work and then leave for the next gig before the customer support load escalates.

the pilot must have been good, you do not get posted to a bringup sqdn for a new mainstay fighter without being good. unless he was trying something extraordinary, likelihood is something in the plane failed.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 15 Nov 2011 11:13

vina wrote: As for the "Martin Baker" ejection seat, I am not too sure. I suspect it is a repeat of the old Chinese playbook. They would have imported a couple of MB seats and then it would be the cloned "Maltin Bakel" seats on the planes. The Pakis are being willing guinea pigs for the Chinese to test their junk on. Oh well. More PAF pilots are going to "embrace martyrdom" and become "Shaheed".

you sir are brutal

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2011 11:17

anishns wrote:
vina wrote: As for the "Martin Baker" ejection seat, I am not too sure. I suspect it is a repeat of the old Chinese playbook. They would have imported a couple of MB seats and then it would be the cloned "Maltin Bakel" seats on the planes. The Pakis are being willing guinea pigs for the Chinese to test their junk on. Oh well. More PAF pilots are going to "embrace martyrdom" and become "Shaheed".
you sir are brutal

Again How can martin Baker sell to China military equipment, wouldn't that be violation of US law. so the Truth could be that the PAF has pulled some H&D claim about Martin Baker seats from their collective Musharaf's.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 15 Nov 2011 11:19

^^^

And I can't wait for the WS-10 engine on the Bandar to come online....

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2011 14:30

RIP pilot.

I won't speculate anything ... but since the pilot was found 2 km from the debris ... he must have had altitude on his side especially considering that he was flying over mountains.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2011 17:37

Aditya, point 1, martin baker is british not american. point 2, I guess ejection seats do not count as weapons (don't mean it as a tongue in cheek comment).
lastly, chinese have offered the MB as option for a long time now. chinese mig knock-offs in service abroad feature MB seats.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2011 18:34

Rahul M wrote:Aditya, point 1, martin baker is british not american. point 2, I guess ejection seats do not count as weapons (don't mean it as a tongue in cheek comment).
lastly, chinese have offered the MB as option for a long time now. chinese mig knock-offs in service abroad feature MB seats.

But wont that break the EU embargo. Ejection seats are not weapons but are definitely military equipment.

Funny, how Chinese were allowed to integrate Aim9b missiles with F-6 aircraft, use Martin Baker seats, sell missiles and Nukes and yet all these MTCR, NPT embargoes have been pissed upon. All these laws apply only to India

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 15 Nov 2011 22:24

Aditya_V wrote:
Bandaar does not FBW, in fact the Chinese, had claimed this in a roundabout way stating, computer malfunction will have no impact on the aircraft controls. It is all analog only.

If I am not wrong, the bandar has pitch only FBW in pitch and not the yaw. Saw couple of Pakis arguing in Paki forums arguing inanely that this in no way affects the performance of aircraft. Then why have FBW at all?

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 16 Nov 2011 00:19

arun wrote:X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar

10 600 / 730 = 14.5205479

So each day, 15 bombs were dropped?

That number seems a bit high to me, am I missing something here?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Nov 2011 09:00

Yogi_G wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Bandaar does not FBW, in fact the Chinese, had claimed this in a roundabout way stating, computer malfunction will have no impact on the aircraft controls. It is all analog only.
If I am not wrong, the bandar has pitch only FBW in pitch and not the yaw. Saw couple of Pakis arguing in Paki forums arguing inanely that this in no way affects the performance of aircraft. Then why have FBW at all?

The pitch gets affected when you have to rise and prostrate yourself repeatedly towards the west? The yaw doesn't. So it is prayer proofing FBW.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 16 Nov 2011 09:05

biswas wrote:
arun wrote:X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar
10 600 / 730 = 14.5205479

So each day, 15 bombs were dropped?

That number seems a bit high to me, am I missing something here?

Biswasji: What you are missing is :

a) A result of Madraassa Mats and Lahori Logic
b) If a) above is incorrect, than attempts to get H&D to scale new heights.
c) Regardless of a) & b) hoping to restart the rattle of coins in begging bowl.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Nov 2011 09:29

Must be a part of inflated report to claim more expenses from US.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Nov 2011 13:59

JF-17 Update and Road Map

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 16 Nov 2011 14:15

PAF JF-17 Thunder Performing At Dubai Air Show 2011

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Nov 2011 14:51

Austin wrote:JF-17 Update and Road Map

Thats a wishlist, not a roadmap.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Nov 2011 15:14

Probably something under works and derived from J-10 program. Nothing surprising there just a iterative upgrade. Though I doubt the Chinese WS-13 will ever see the light of the day , the new RD-93 variant has been advertised with a max thrust of 98Kn , so they might just hop on to that and with Klimov 3D TVC if required.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Nov 2011 11:29

From the report that Austin posted-

apparently they've ALREADY noticed cracks at the wing root on the JF-17 ! Any one of the airframes wouldn't have crossed even 500 hours and already cracks at the wing root ! Makes me wonder if they did any real static testing of an airframe to simulate extended usage and fatigue..now, they want to use composites to overcome that..looks like they were in a real rush to get it into service and then try to figure out if there are any major airframe issues or not.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 17 Nov 2011 11:34

Pakistani Army Unit .. recovering from Talibani on-slaught... injuries and deads.....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43b_1321496997

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Nov 2011 11:38

i am predicting the retrofitting of composites on JF17 as another disaster. sure the fit n finish will look smooth, but anything structural done without going the whole 9 yards of hard work usually ends badly. will the test it exhaustively...probably not.
have the chinese used composites more than original su27 in the j-11 model? the j10 uses a low amt of composites....

the dubai airshow display was even worse than the ones earlier. I could see some of the vip's rightly yawning and trying to hide their sleepiness.

sure it will find some market in certain places like north korea, mali and mauritania, maybe even the 'new' libya....none of these need anything more than a flying crate to machine gun and bomb impotent 'rebels' in some corner.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 17 Nov 2011 11:41

Singha wrote:i am predicting the retrofitting of composites on JF17 as another disaster. sure the fit n finish will look smooth, but anything structural done without going the whole 9 yards of hard work usually ends badly. will the test it exhaustively...probably not.
have the chinese used composites more than original su27 in the j-11 model? the j10 uses a low amt of composites....

the dubai airshow display was even worse than the ones earlier. I could see some of the vip's rightly yawning and trying to hide their sleepiness.

sure it will find some market in certain places like north korea, mali and mauritania, maybe even the 'new' libya....none of these need anything more than a flying crate to machine gun and bomb impotent 'rebels' in some corner.

why cant we have a like button for posting like other forums and Facebook... ..

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 17 Nov 2011 12:01

Haha! Singhaji.....so true!
This was such a lame ass display, honestly I can make a paper glider which can do more loops!

Was also funny that mid way into the demo....they started discussing the Eurofighter!

Singha wrote:i am predicting the retrofitting of composites on JF17 as another disaster. sure the fit n finish will look smooth, but anything structural done without going the whole 9 yards of hard work usually ends badly. will the test it exhaustively...probably not.
have the chinese used composites more than original su27 in the j-11 model? the j10 uses a low amt of composites....

the dubai airshow display was even worse than the ones earlier. I could see some of the vip's rightly yawning and trying to hide their sleepiness.

sure it will find some market in certain places like north korea, mali and mauritania, maybe even the 'new' libya....none of these need anything more than a flying crate to machine gun and bomb impotent 'rebels' in some corner.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Nov 2011 12:02

link to Zinio reader

PAF is actively looking at buying the J-10B variant to "round out" its force structure..nothing new, they're probably waiting for China to give them the J-10B on "easy credit" terms like they did for the JF-17s..

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 17 Nov 2011 12:20

Saudi Birader giving away phookat Eriye to the Pakis in exchange for who knows what?

Flight Global

Last October, Sweden announced the sale of a Saab 2000 AEW aircraft with an Erieye radar to an undisclosed customer. It has since been widely reported that Riyadh is the buyer. The Royal Saudi Air Force already operates the more capable Boeing E-3A airborne warning and control system aircraft, but the Saab 2000 will likely be transferred to or operated jointly with Pakistan. Such a transfer would make up for Pakistan's original order for six of the AEW platforms, which was reduced in 2007 to five aircraft.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Nov 2011 12:23

Folks how many Gs did it do at 2:34-2:40?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Nov 2011 12:32

Kartik wrote: PAF is actively looking at buying the J-10B variant to "round out" its force structure..nothing new, they're probably waiting for China to give them the J-10B on "easy credit" terms like they did for the JF-17s..

Right. Like the "easy credit" they got for JF-17

The original cost of the project was expected to be $1 billion (Pakistan hoped to manufacture 250 JF-17s). As part of this new agreement, Pakistan obtained a loan, again from CATIC, at an interest rate of 7% to purchase these aircraft in 2008. The terms of this loan were excessive, given the world economic crisis and the fact that Pakistan had just entered into another loan agreement with CATIC at a considerable price for an aviation system. As a result, Pakistan was compelled to sign the purchase agreement with CATIC on March 18, 2009, at a final price of $10 billion.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Nov 2011 12:35

Read the article about the Saab. Gawd these ME fellows have armed their airforce to the teeth!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2011 12:45

Anujan wrote:
Kartik wrote: PAF is actively looking at buying the J-10B variant to "round out" its force structure..nothing new, they're probably waiting for China to give them the J-10B on "easy credit" terms like they did for the JF-17s..
Right. Like the "easy credit" they got for JF-17

The original cost of the project was expected to be $1 billion (Pakistan hoped to manufacture 250 JF-17s). As part of this new agreement, Pakistan obtained a loan, again from CATIC, at an interest rate of 7% to purchase these aircraft in 2008. The terms of this loan were excessive, given the world economic crisis and the fact that Pakistan had just entered into another loan agreement with CATIC at a considerable price for an aviation system. As a result, Pakistan was compelled to sign the purchase agreement with CATIC on March 18, 2009, at a final price of $10 billion.

So even for Pakis, each JF-17 costs a minimum of $40 million?? for 250 or is it for 150 aircraft- $ 66 Million??

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2011 12:53

Anujan wrote:Read the article about the Saab. Gawd these ME fellows have armed their airforce to the teeth!

From the article an interesting quote

The manufacturer is due to deliver the last F-15E currently on order the middle of 2012.

Are F-15E still being manufactured?? is it the US miltary or Saudis buying these?

Neighbouring governments may not have faced mass protests, but many were forced to scale back or defer weapons purchases to concentrate on popular demands for economic and political reforms. Iraq, for example, has recently completed a deal for 18 F-16C/Ds, but the signed deal represents only half of the originally planned order for 36, and it was delayed by several months as Iraqi authorities diverted funding to domestic welfare programmes. Iraq still remains the most active weapons buyer in the region outside of Saudi Arabia and the UAE. It has been quickly rebuilding what had been the Arab world's strongest air force. The currently envisioned force is still a relatively modest organisation, but is growing. Since 2009, Iraq has signed orders for 15 Hawker Beechcraft T-6A Texan IIs, 27 armed Bell Helicopter 407 light helicopters and six C-130J Hercules transports.

So Iraqis will buy arms, apart for giving other Contracts to US companies and finally end up funding the US all the costs of GulF War II, How convienient.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 17 Nov 2011 13:30

^^^ Don't forget silent eagle. I think Koreans and israelies are negotiating contracts for silent eagle

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Nov 2011 16:06

I think usaf got its last new F-15 sometime in early 1990s. since then many were upgraded in various ways , and now all will get upgrades and aesa radars.
subsequently probably israeli and saudi F-15 were made and delivered, followed by south korea and singapore.

I am sure Soko will go for more SE model and the saudis will likely convert some of their huge order to SE model as well. Israel being a munna via annual aid will surely take some 24-48 while the going is good.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Nov 2011 16:07

the laughing stock is japan who likely has the most dated F-15 fleet in the world, and cant even seem to decide what they want - 4th , 5th or 6th gen! ancient radars, sparrow missiles, no cutting edge gear.....they are preparing to fight mongolia not the lizard.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Nov 2011 22:06

Aditya_V wrote: So even for Pakis, each JF-17 costs a minimum of $40 million?? for 250 or is it for 150 aircraft- $ 66 Million??

That includes the cost of setting up the assembly plants, buying machinery, training their engineers at CATIC, all in preparation for manufacturing the JF-17. PAC Kamra was simply an MRO type organization, with minimal capability to manufacture a new jet. Obviously those costs were included in that loan.

But thanks Anujan for that link- good to know that the Pakis end up paying market rates for their weapons from the Chinese.