India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Taygibay]

LOL Rajanb.

The due-process may be four weeks down but the noises will keep up until then.
Once the decision falls, the shift in attention will go to the dual line of
LCA Mk2 and AMCA until FGFA starts running.
( Those two threads will be my interest, Singha. )

One thing for sure, after unsufferable delays, the IAF, as has been mentioned,
has done a great job and the results are of interest to the mili world.
The simple fact of the US eviction from the MMRCA has shaken a few.
Disclosure of the main points in this tender will also be very sought after.

Good day all, Tay.

[rajanb]

It isn't over till the fat lady sings.

I can envisage both the vendors spending their time calculating costs, i.e. if they know the MoD's methodology. Also having to reply to clarifications and if they are unsure, using those clarifications to reduce their price, by giving a lower cost option if possible to justify.

So if Dassault is arrogant, then its theirs to lose.

I would be certain that the individual spreadsheets would go to the respective vendors to sign off so there is no room for hanky panky later.

As an aside, I always thought the M2K upg at the phenomenal price agreed upon, was a precursor to much reduced prices by Dassault. So if we are hearing that the fly-away cost difference between the two vendors is marginal, I would assume that EF countered by being aggressive.

My 2 paise.

[Yogi_G]

The world air forces have keenly watched how the IAF has created the process for the evaluation and how it took it through professionally. Now the Europeans will prescribe this process the world over and the Americans will proscribe it.

Any chance that the CAG could step in and ruin the party? I mean could they put a hold on the entire process saying that the selection criteria is not "efficient" enough?

[rajanb]

The CAG comes in a few years later. Going by what has happened so far. But if AK has been smart, he would have involved the CAG and MoF right now as a part of the excel process.

I wonder who is the smart vendor who put in three currencies. Boy, what a dilemma! Must be the EF guys.

[Lalmohan]

the issue with the US is that it has strong armed its "allies" Japan and South Korea into accepting 2nd line equipment with the promise of more to come, and was hoping to do the same with India. that strategy failed. the US will have to think about that

[rajanb]

^^^ Agree Lalmohanji. The lesson to gain here is the arrogance of super powers do not effect us. I am proud that we can stand up for it.

There maybe different interpretations to why we did it. Was it because we are independent in thinking; was it because of the Pakis getting the f-16; or was it, and I strongly subscribe to this, which is none of the above two, that we wanted the best on offer. if the JSF had been on offer, provided it was in a demonstratable condition to attempt to rank it in the >600 tests, we would have definitely looked at it.

[Taygibay]

I can envisage both the vendors spending their time calculating costs, i.e. if they know the MoD's methodology. Also having to reply to clarifications and if they are unsure, using those clarifications to reduce their price, by giving a lower cost option if possible to justify.

So if Dassault is arrogant, then its theirs to lose.

I would be certain that the individual spreadsheets would go to the respective vendors to sign off so there is no room for hanky panky later.

As an aside, I always thought the M2K upg at the phenomenal price agreed upon, was a precursor to much reduced prices by Dassault. So if we are hearing that the fly-away cost difference between the two vendors is marginal, I would assume that EF countered by being aggressive.

My 2 paise.

Whole heartedly agreed Rajanb!

I may add that Dassault's arrogance may not play in India.
In the case of the UAE, the deal was pursued very actively
by the politics to secure the sesame first export and Dassault
probably saw it as a payback from the French government,
Furthermore, Dassault respects its partners more than that.
They would not be the provider of Catia to just about the
whole industry for instance if they were always that arrogant.
This being said, I just cannot place the respectable messieurs
Serge Dassault et Charles Edelstenne at the level of the man
they took over for.

Agreed too Yogi_G and Lalmohan.

[SaiK]

anyone who fights here after the decision will face the firing squad though.

sounds like busy time ahead for bradmins soon.

btw, CAG can only see records of events happened[if made or complain that it was not made].

let us hope, that it does not find any irregularities.

the issue with the US is that it has strong armed its "allies" Japan and South Korea into accepting 2nd line equipment with the promise of more to come, and was hoping to do the same with India. that strategy failed. the US will have to think about that

we have advanced relationship with Israel and Russia for technology initiatives. perhaps unkill studies them carefully before they see value additions with us.

[Kartik]

Some news on the Taurus test that was being talked of by MBDA officials earlier- this missile will likely be a part of the package that was offered on the Typhoon.

Taurus production missile tested

The German air force has successfully concluded the first flight test of a series-production Taurus cruise missile.

The flight test was completed at the South African Overberg Test Range, the service says.

The missile flew around 300 km before impacting its target. Here are a few pictures from the test:

[Nikhil T]

Any chance that the CAG could step in and ruin the party? I mean could they put a hold on the entire process saying that the selection criteria is not "efficient" enough?

CAG has a lag of 2 years, it is sort of a post-mortem. Currently, it is examining matters from 2009-10 financial year. CVC, however, can step in.

[Cain Marko]

India to wrap up MMRCA deal in 4 weeks: IAF Chief
ZeeNews

Asked if he expects cost escalation vis-a-vis the contract, the Air Chief Marshal said, "I can't tell you anything till the time we finish that work".

imvho that means "Yes" - price will increase.

As far as CAG goes, I don't think they can do anything to scuttle the deal, they'll complain later as usual and tell us how awful the chosen bird is - cannot really take off from the runway, radars non functioning and mijjiles blow up before reaching target.

However, the Finmin sure can.

[Taygibay]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sp ... ox3_15.pdf

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sp ... ox3_16.pdf

Good night all, Tay.

[arthuro]

From fox 3 (source above)

Such was the confidence of the
French aircrews in their new
mount that all missions were
conducted without any support
from dedicated electronic warfare
and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy
Air Defences) assets: thanks to its
Spectra state-of-the-art electronic
warfare/self-defence suite, the
Rafale was able to operate at
will in a dangerous environment,
against a dense network of deadly
surface-to-air missile systems.
Even more significant is the fact
that the Rafale was able to accurately
locate enemy air-defence
systems and engage them."


"Such is the quality of the Spectra
electronic warfare suite that the
Rafale literally disappeared from
the radar screens of the Libyan Air
Force while performing ‘soft kills’ on
the enemy radar systems. Spectra
relies on advanced jamming modes
and jamming techniques to defeat
hostile weapon systems and to
hide the progression and whereabouts
of the fighter."

We should remember Bill Sweetman article about Active cancellation that caused a lot of debates :

Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.

But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.

Earlier this year, Thales and European missile-builder MBDA disclosed that they were working on active-cancellation technology for cruise missiles and had already tested it on a small unmanned aerial vehicle, using a combination of active and passive techniques to manage radar signature. This revelation makes it considerably more likely that active cancellation is already being developed for Rafale.

Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive - but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all. The advantage of this technique is that it uses very low power, compared with conventional EW, and provides no clues to the aircraft's presence; the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible.

The complexity of active cancellation could account for Spectra's high price tag, estimated in 1997 as "several billion francs" (equivalent to the high hundreds of millions of US dollars) for research and development. One of four Rafale prototypes was dedicated to Spectra tests, along with a Falcon 20 flying testbed. Four new large anechoic chambers were built to support the Spectra project, including one which is large and well equipped enough to operate the complete system in a fully detailed electromagnetic environment.

Spectra's RF systems are backed up by a laser-warning system, an optical missile-launch-warning system, and a full range of expendable countermeasures. There is no towed decoy system.

[Nick_S]

^ yawn... old story. If it was so amazing how come there isnt even a single export customer for it.

[shiv]

^ yawn... old story. If it was so amazing how come there isnt even a single export customer for it.

The Spectra system might be making it fall out of their radar screens before they see it?

[Taygibay]

Warranted call by present situation, Nick_S ...
but Concorde was never exported either and
still is and will remain a legendary airplane.
There's no direct relation.


But SPECTRA must be hard to sell anyway.
All aspects cannot be fully demonstrated.
First because the EW/defensive suit combo
includes a librairy of signatures that one
does not want to share.
Two because the scope of its integration is
such that the French pilots admitted that the
range of possibilities, although fully opened,
has not been fully exploited yet.

Good day all, Tay.

[saptarishi]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dGHx-p9v1Y[/youtube]

the best rafale display ever.a beauty ,dogfighting duke

[anishns]

the best rafale display ever.a beauty ,dogfighting duke

there fixed it for you!

[Hitesh]

How did you fix it?

I had the same problem when I tried to post youtube videos and all it showed was a big empty white of space.

[SaiK]

Is there a similar Rafale display with fully loaded config? Perhaps compare with a similar Ef2k display?

[Yogi_G]

A spoilt SDRE like me who has been fed on many a spectacular "ooh" turns and "aah" maneuvers by Rambha et family somehow find any other demo flights as "yawn". tsk tsk. No offence to the rafale's abilities but then again was just wondering if it was just me.

[rajanb]

^ yawn... old story. If it was so amazing how come there isnt even a single export customer for it.

Having worked on mainframes all my life, I have to politely disagree to the above statement.

The best selling mainframes have been those sold by a computer giant with a 3 letter name. When I switched to another company, I was astounded by what the smaller company had. Fantastic product but constrained by cash and not so ruthless in its marketing. No money to create perceptions!

The analogy may not fit perfectly but am sure our IAF chaps will know what they want. (I am not batting for any of the two)

After all, the Gnat was a similar story!

[saptarishi]

the best rafale display ever.a beauty ,dogfighting duke

there fixed it for you!

thanks for fixing it,

A spoilt SDRE like me who has been fed on many a spectacular "ooh" turns and "aah" maneuvers by Rambha et family somehow find any other demo flights as "yawn". tsk tsk. No offence to the rafale's abilities but then again was just wondering if it was just me.

you are right everything faints in front of the Rambha family,even without the tvc rambha rocks.

here is a su-30mk2 video,its not mki,an ordinary mk2 performs so beautifully,,what to say of mki with tvc.
i am just posting the link .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-GOa9Jig9Q

sorry but su-30 family is so good couldn't keep myself from not posting it here in mmrca thread

[shiv]

How did you fix it?

I had the same problem when I tried to post youtube videos and all it showed was a big empty white of space.

Here you go:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1198167

[Singha]

imo the su30 family looks more impressive at airshows due its huge size. its like a big clydesdale horse doing gymnastics.

but the rafale looks like a very slippery and small krait, that slides around quietly , always looking to turn around and land a good bite.

[shiv]

the best rafale display ever.a beauty ,dogfighting duke

Gosh!! This is a scintillating absolutely SPECTACULAR display!! That low-speed high AoA flight is a float, not a flight. Super stuff.

I would be perfectly happy to see an aircraft capable of this in the IAF.

[Singha]

+1 sir...its a very deceptive and slippery performer, able to turn its head around and sink two long poisoned filled fangs deep into unsuspecting pursuer.

how it is able to retain control in top part of the vertical circle right after the AoA float at such a slow speed without TVC is a mystery to me at 4:01 onward ...and its slowing down and acceleration is smooth and sudden like a well trained athlete who can 'change gears' on demand.

the EF has more noise and bustling storming 'presence' in airshows though. it was stunning in AI-11 flying at treetop level over the highway , something the rafale chose not to do and remain higher.

[SaiK]

it is an awesome video at 1080p. whoever took it must be a pro.

[ranjithnath]

oh absolutely love the rafale display!!!

the EF has more noise and bustling storming 'presence' in airshows though. it was stunning in AI-11 flying at treetop level over the highway , something the rafale chose not to do and remain higher.

i read somewhere from a pilot comparing airshow performance of rafale and EF.it said rafale felt very light and nimble and EF ,OTOH felt more similar to F15 ,although at times it was able to point its nose quicker.

[Altair]

it is an awesome video at 1080p. whoever took it must be a pro.

Absolutely. He never lost the plane and his hand was very steady. I am an amateur video enthusiast and I couldnt track a cricket ball. Really great job whoever took the video. many many thanks from a jingo.

[arthuro]

i read somewhere from a pilot comparing airshow performance of rafale and EF.it said rafale felt very light and nimble and EF ,OTOH felt more similar to F15 ,although at times it was able to point its nose quicker.

it was on the rafale news on keypublishing :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 02&page=17

Long time lurker just joined the forum..

Spent the day at the Dubai Airshow yesterday..

I am a Pilot but of Heavy Metal, I really enjoyed the show and was interested to see the Typhoon, F-16E, Rafael and F-15E display.

My impression is that the F-16E is still very impressive for an old design and that big GE motor gives it lots of grunt, but the Rafale really blew me away the display was very very good.. How he kept the machine in such a small piece of sky and still displayed some high speed maneuvers was very cool, the machine appears to be in another league in power-to-weight ration and maneuverability, the Typhoon looks and displays like a bigger heavier aeroplane and the display was quite similar to the F-15E except at times he seamed to be able to point the nose quicker then the Big American twin... still as I saw it the Rafale is/displays as a far more maneuverable aircraft...

I know that display flying is not an indication of real world war-fighting ability BUT.. the Rafale seams to be able to turn and point and squirt with such speed and control it has to provide some advantage...

My Two Dirhams worth

Other article on rafale display performance :

Rafale perform a big show at Dubai

It won the majority of the votes! In the opinion of many experts in the Dubai Airshow 2011, the Rafale offers the most impressive flying display of UAE Airshow.

On the applause meter, the French fighter is ahead of many other aircrafts (F15, F16, Typhoon, Mirage 2000-9, ...).
"The purpose of the Rafale Solo Display is to demonstrate both the skill of the pilots of the french Air force and the quality of the fighter, said the captain Mickael Brocard, official display pilot of the Rafale. I must make the best flight possible, while ensuring maximum safety. For this, I push my plane to its limits. " For Captain Brocard, this limit is around ten G. Indeed, the most spectacular tricks impose a load factor equal to more than ten times its weight: a threshold that neither he nor the unit can not exceed.

To achieve such performance, a rigorous mental preparation is essential. So, before boarding his plane, the Rafale display pilot prepares himself internally, mimicking silently on the ground the gestures he will repeat in the air.

Once in the air, Captain Brocard draws the quintessence of his plane. "If the presentation is so dynamic, it is primarily due to the flight controls. They allow to operate in a very small space and to chain the exercises very quickly. The power of both engines also makes possible very fast passages alternatively with slowers. "

As the season comes to the end (a last date is set for an international show in Malaysia in December), the captain takes a very positive assessment of the flights made. "We have chained the air shows throughout the summer. It was wonderful to meet so many aviation enthusiasts and see the public's enthusiasm for the flights we do. "
[...]

It is also worth to note that the rafale won two years in a row the trophy of the best solo display at the UK RIAT airshow.

[arthuro]

Only my opinion but knowing a fair amount of rafale display videos here are my favorites (better than the previously posted one IMO) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK5kdgh58tk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKfeSYFZ ... 8683751C95

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWeiG52Q88w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQBUDhNFxrQ

9-1 for the rafale in WVR dogfights in corsica

Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica .
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page101
post 1513

[ranjithnath]

i read somewhere from a pilot comparing airshow performance of rafale and EF.it said rafale felt very light and nimble and EF ,OTOH felt more similar to F15 ,although at times it was able to point its nose quicker.

it was on the rafale news on keypublishing :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 02&page=17



It is also worth to note that the rafale won two years in a row the trophy of the best solo display at the UK RIAT airshow.

ah there!!thanks arthuro.
btw any video in which rafale demonstrates cobra?? just curious

[Gaur]

^^
You won't find such a video. Some fighter a/cs may be able to perform cobra at high altitude and at optimum speed and even then it would be dangeous. However, airshows require them to perform it at slow speeds and extremely low altitude....which is something with only Su-27 (+ future variants) and F-22 can do.

[Viv S]

i read somewhere from a pilot comparing airshow performance of rafale and EF.it said rafale felt very light and nimble and EF ,OTOH felt more similar to F15 ,although at times it was able to point its nose quicker.

The Rafale is usually the more exciting aircraft at most airshows. Which isn't surprising considering its clearly the better performer at low altitudes and low air speeds with higher ITR, qualities ideal for a scintillating air show performance. Also, it probably has a better nose pointing ability than the EF.

The sole area where I'd expect the EF to be more pleasing to the crowds is during take-off, where it can literally blast off the runway and climb faster than any other aircraft (except for the F-22 perhaps). For example -




Eurofighter vs Bugatti Veyron - Drag Race

[Don]

Sorry if its been posted before.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... id-365019/

DUBAI: UAE stings Dassault’s 'uncompetitive and unworkable' Rafale bid 

17 Nov 2011

Source:

A top United Arab Emirates military and political leader closed the Dubai air show by unleashing a rare, rhetorical attack on Dassault for submitting "unworkable" terms in an attempt to close a long-awaited deal for up to 60 Rafale fighters.

After touring the air show grounds on 16 November, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, crown prince of Abu Dhabi, released a statement to the official Emirates news agency praising French diplomatic efforts on behalf of the Rafale bid, but also slamming Dassault's negotiators.

"Regrettably, Dassault seems unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," said Mohammed, deputy supreme commander of the UAE Armed Forces.

His statement appears to support a claim by Eurofighter and the UK Ministry of Defence that the UAE is seriously considering an alternative proposal for the Typhoon.

Eurofighter revealed on 12 November that the UAE had issued a request for proposal for the Typhoon to the UK government, the official representative of the four-member consortium to Abu Dhabi.

Also during the show, Boeing named the UAE as one of 10 potential buyers for either the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or F-15E Strike Eagle, and revealed that the UAE government had requested classified briefings.

All of this appeared to have come as a surprise to Dassault. Only a month ago, the French manufacturer publicly touted the imminent possibility of closing the UAE deal and securing the first Rafale export bid.

Dassault has come close to winning Rafale contracts before in the Netherlands, South Korea, Singapore and Morocco, but in each case was rejected in favour of US-built offerings from Boeing or Lockheed Martin.

Mohammed's criticism also comes at an especially sensitive period for Dassault. The Indian Ministry of Defence is also negotiating final terms between Dassault and Eurofighter for a 126-aircraft order.

Dassault was not immediately available to comment.

[Austin]

Its just hard to believe Eurofighter will go down 9-1 to a Rafale in close fighter , Rafale is not that extraordinary to give Typhoon such a beating , i could have slowed a 9-7 or 9-6 if Rafale had a very experienced pilot.

Most certainly we need to know the ROE of this Typhoon vs Rafale game and why it was the result to tilted in Rafales favour.

[manum]

It definitely depends on exploits of the systems and pilot...In one instance some chinese birather claimed proudly on BRF IIRC that JF17 beat sukhoi 30 mkk in exercises hands down...well we all know what it can mean, specially when two fighters are far apart in potential.

But when it comes to Rafale and Typhoon...I guess its about maturing and mastering the fighter and winner is always the better pilot...If typhoon lost hands down then it only means...Typhoon deserves better exploits...

[Viv S]

Its just hard to believe Eurofighter will go down 9-1 to a Rafale in close fighter , Rafale is not that extraordinary to give Typhoon such a beating , i could have slowed a 9-7 or 9-6 if Rafale had a very experienced pilot.

Most certainly we need to know the ROE of this Typhoon vs Rafale game and why it was the result to tilted in Rafales favour.

Its possible as an one-off, even though there were inconsistencies in the article. For example, it claimed that the setup was 'custom-made' for the EF while in reality it was ideal for the Rafale (guns only, low speed, mid to low altitude). But all that is fine as long as one doesn't extrapolate the results to all subsequent or future EF-Rafale encounters. They've been numerous DACT exercises over the years involving the two types, plenty of which have gone the EF's favour as well (but which haven't received glowing multi page tributes in glossy magazines).

[Austin]

Well though Typhoon is designed for high speed/supersonic engagement knife fight , its no slouch in subsonic combat.

When asked in Force interview to UK CAS on how Typhoon performed against MKI during ex Indradhanush , he mentioned at low altitude both were equal and at high the Typhoon was better.

Unless one is dealing with a very experience hand in Rafale and young rookie pilot in Typhoon its impossible to get a 8-1 result assuming ROE was fair to both and when you take into account RAF chief statement.

A JF-17 scoring against MKK on couple of occasion is ok since even Bison has scored on couple of occasion in duel with MKI in close combat , its not that they end up with bad result considering that there is a generation difference between platform , but a 8-1 kill for platform of same generation.... its too good to be true , Not that i am a big Typhoon fan but no one would believe such one sided result much like you wont believe typhoon scoring 8-1 against Rafale in a fair combat.

Unless both European parties play their own little game , so today its my turn tomorrow its yours to score well ... lets both fool our prospective customers with lopsided result and fill Trade Magazine with claims and counterclaims