Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

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A_Gupta
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 11:46

menon s wrote:Our trade is in no way, going to help Pakistan pull out of the economic morass it is in, but it will create however small a community of well wishers for India in that country. which i think is quiet needed.
Military minds and Politicians could not create peace between both nations in the past 63 yrs, why? shouldnt we traders be given a chance?


What is different now from 1950-1965? The memory of Partition was there, but there were no terrorist attacks or even (as far as I know) the firing across the Line of Control. Pakistan had not yet so overtly Islamized as it was to do in the 1970s. There was plenty of trade back then. What happened to that community of well-wishers?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 19 Nov 2011 11:51

A_Gupta wrote:
Ivanev wrote:This civilized mentality has got India nothing but more terrorism/pain in return. If we are too civilized to kill the snake that bites us, we can de-fang it right! No one here would want to exterminate the Pakis or kill innocent menDid you read what I was responding to? Shiv on page 31 of this thread.I have no doubt he's being piskological.Actually I have absolutely no objection to seeing every Pakistani dead. Clean. Wipe Pakistan clean of all Pakistanis. What is wrong with that? ....I think all Pakistanis should be killed. People may ask, how can you kill 180 million people. Ok i admit that will be difficult. How about killing 10 million of them for punishment? That should be easier. The Pakistani army killed 3 million in 1971. Heck historical records show that heroes like Mahmud Ghazni killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It was fine then. What makes it bad now? Sometimes it is necessary to kill people. The time to kill Pakistanis is when we are stronger. That is the law of nature.

I doubt we have the heart to kill 180 million Poakroahces plus there is no necessity to inflict such cruelty. Logistic alone forbid such course of action.IMHO, only 40% of them need such punishment . Balance 30% to be banished or sold and rest kept for righteous upbrining.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 12:02

Peter Chamberlin weighs in against the peace process as a US-Indian conspiracy.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/63196

A realistic analysis of the India/Pakistani peace process would have to proceed on the assumption that the primary beneficiary will prove to be American. If a deal between them is brokered by the US State Dept., by the Dept. of Commerce, or by the Pentagon, everyone should understand by now exactly where the big pay-off will go.


Obama wants Indian telecommunication companies as well as construction companies to help energize the CIS space, especially to build the currently non-existent road and rail networks needed to assimilate the resource bonanza. India does stand to reap enormous financial rewards from this, if it will consent to transferring its developing industry into Central Asia, away from the Indian homeland, where it is needed even more urgently.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 12:11

You think there is any truth to this?
http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.c ... ar-1-2005/

Question: When you helped create BLA back in the 1980’s, what objectives did you have in mind?

Sasha and Misha: It was simply an instrument to create problems in Pakistan. There were no ideological reasons – it was merely a pragmatic solution for a strategic problem.

Question: Who could have revived BLA after so many years of inactivity?

Misha: Most likely, Pentagon. With good lot of support from Kremlin. You should keep in mind that reviving such an organization is a tricky task and it needs active support from a number of players. Pentagon and Kremlin would not be able to do much without some help from RAW that has hundreds of active contacts all over Balochistan. Russia could have helped negotiate the involvement of Balach Marri in the project.

Sasha: RAW must have jumped at the chance because last July the ‘discretionary grants’ budget [a euphemism for espionage fund] was increased by 700% in the Indian consulates in Kandahar, Jalalabad and Zahidan.

Misha: Yes, discretionary grants are not subject to central audit and the station chief can do what he wants with it.


PS: Oh, holy Sh**, I fell for crap.

http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.c ... ar-1-2005/ is by Tariq Saeedi, Sergi Pyatakov, etc.,

and

http://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/ is by Makhdoom Babar, Christina Palmer, Sandra Johnson, etc.
From the first:
Before zooming in to January 2002, let’s set the background. We consulted Sasha and Misha, two former KGB officers who are Afghanists – the veterans of Russo-Afghan war – and they seem to know Balochistan better than most Pakistanis. Obviously, Sasha and Misha are not their real names. They live on the same street in one of the quieter suburbs of Moscow. Two bonds tie them together in their retirement: While on active duty in KGB, they were both frequent travelers to Balochistan during the Russo-Afghan war where they were tasked to foment trouble in Pakistan; and they are both wary of Vodka, the mandatory nectar of Russian cloak and dagger community. They visit each other almost every day and that is why it was easy to catch them together for long chats over quantities of green tea and occasional bowls of Borsch.



From the second:
Before zooming in to January 2002, let’s set the background. We consulted Solka and Olga, two former KGB officers who are Afghanis – the veterans of Russo-Afghan war – and they seem to know Balochistan better than most Pakistanis. Obviously, Solka and Olga are not their real names.
They live on the same street in one of the quieter suburbs of Moscow. Two bonds tie them together in their retirement: While on active duty in KGB, they were both frequent travelers to Balochistan during the Russo-Afghan war where they were tasked to foment trouble in Pakistan; and they are both wary of Vodka, the mandatory nectar of Russian cloak and dagger community. They visit each other almost every day and that is why it was easy to catch them together for long chats over quantities of green tea and occasional bowls of Borsch.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 19 Nov 2011 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby menon s » 19 Nov 2011 12:17

Sasha: RAW must have jumped at the chance because last July the ‘discretionary grants’ budget [a euphemism for espionage fund] was increased by 700% in the Indian consulates in Kandahar, Jalalabad and Zahidan.


This article is a complete lie, someone high on hashish, dreaming up a scenario! Zahidan has a 3rd vice counsul, and three staff members? it is an old consulate inherited from British days, near a gurudwara, just to help, a few Sikhs who come over for pilgrimage.
Last edited by menon s on 19 Nov 2011 12:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby habal » 19 Nov 2011 12:29

SSridhar wrote:Absolutely well stated, Negi. TSP is seeking to stabilize and improve its overall position by seeking a lifeline from its only mortal enemy, India. And, here we are willing to go far beyond the 'half-way mark' hoping that this time things will turn out to be different. This Pakistani behaviour is pure Hudabaiya.

The invitation to PLA to position itself all along the eastern front is because TSPA wants to concentrate on its western front and in Afghanistan as time comes. It also wants to deter the USA from attacking it and prevent India from taking advantage of the situation. Thus, even while deriving maximum benefit from India through economic cooperation, Pakistan is planning for a more severe and determined operation against India within a decade after stabilizing and re-acquiring Afghanistan. It thinks PRC will participate too in the project. This is a very high-stake and high-risk gamble, but, what are Pakistan and TSPA if they do not take higher and higher risks even as they slide deeper and deeper into the morass. PRC may have its own calculations for so blatantly moving into Pakistan and not all of that may be to Pakistan's liking though Pakistan may be blind to that now.

By not making things more difficult for Pakistan now, we are shooting ourselves in both our feet and also handing over the gun to our adverasary. This MFN fiasco is the latest in the duplicitous behaviour of Pakistan and shows how it goes about ensnaring India.


cosying upto India could also be a jibe at Panetta's India-based threat ideology. Let's not jump to conclusions, ofcourse hudaibiya considerations could be the Pakis way of explaining same to their indoctrinated-masses. US is the bigger threat to India than Pakistan any day.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby chaanakya » 19 Nov 2011 13:21

chaanakya wrote:
Manny wrote:Pakistan is that monkey.


And, in this fable, what does the bottle represent? Cashmere? India?
Its China

MurthyB wrote:Sometimes BR is so ahead of the curve that it comes around, like Hanuman's tail curving around the entire universe and rejoining itself...

Its quite fashionable phrase "ahead of curve" in brf. Actually its all jigsaw puzzle. One Needs to fit all pieces to see the real picture.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby AjayKK » 19 Nov 2011 13:36

menon s wrote:..they are patriotic Pakistanis but needs India`s help, especially the trader, business community. So whats wrong in buying cement, Marble and cotton from that country, and supplying them petroleum, pharmaceuticals and chemicals in return?
In the recent meeting held in Delhi to discuss the MFN status, between Anand Sharma and Fahim Makhdoom , there was an instant bonhomie between Indian and Pakistani businessmen.

Our trade is in no way, going to help Pakistan pull out of the economic morass it is in, but it will create however small a community of well wishers for India in that country.


On 8 October 2005, there was a massive earthquake of 7.6 with its epicentre near Muzzaffarabad causing immense destruction. In the last week of October, India pledged $ 25 million in an UN donor conference. The Rs.120 crores aid became functional with an agreement exchanged between the then Pak High Commissioner and Indian Foreign Secretary in New Delhi on July 11, 2006 around 1 PM with ofcourse a lot of bonhomie.



Image

Gift

With our Rs. 120 crores gift the Pakistanis were overcome with kindness and we were returned the favour six hours later by receiving a series of 7 bomb explosions on the same day in Mumbai rail suburban network injuring over 700 and killing over 200. The affected victims' grief and destruction cannot be compensated but all must have undergone an emotionally and physically harrowing time receiving the total compensation package ( around Rs. 20 crores divided among the next of the killed and the injured ). Indeed our large-heartedness to the terrorist state got us more large-hearted return gift, which at that time was the biggest terror attack in terms of destruction.

The term "Islamic Virus" coined on this forum with respect to Pakistan is completely correct. But unfortunately, ignoring sane opinion of our masses, encouraged perhaps by personal benefits offered, India always chose to "associate" and get "intimate" with it to the tune of the popular song Aaoge jab tum paas...barsega saawan jhoom jhoom kay ( When you come closer, the cloud of love bursts causing a downpour of love) from the film Jab We met ( When We met/meet/mate ). By repeatedly establishing more and more contact with the Halal Islamic Virus (HIV), we have been infected by the disease of Acquired Intelligence Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS). As more and more contact with HIV increases, our immune system is collapsing, our return ( relapse ) gifts in the form of terror attacks since the Rs. 120 crores are rising - the last thing we need is to get entangled in the arms of the HIV infested artificial terrorist state with a fond hope that a trade enabled love-fest enhanced by the warmth of a Pappi-jhappi session will bring us "peace".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 14:22

menon s wrote:^^^^^ Shiv sir, i beg to disagree with you here. There is a military , bureaucratic cliche in Pakistan for whom the enmity with India pays rich dividends. The mullah is in it for the money . But there are many people who have by now understand the fallacy behind two nation theory, they are patriotic Pakistanis but needs India`s help, especially the trader, business community. So whats wrong in buying cement, Marble and cotton from that country, and supplying them petroleum, pharmaceuticals and chemicals in return?
In the recent meeting held in Delhi to discuss the MFN status, between Anand Sharma and Fahim Makhdoom , there was an instant bonhomie between Indian and Pakistani businessmen. In fact, Mr.Fahim, was quoted saying, that he was finding it difficult to differentiate between, Indian and Pakistani businessmen in the audience. Leader of the opposition, Mr. Arun Jaitley was there too, saying, calling on traders and businessmen from, the 2 nations, to, work together as sheet anchors to bring in peace and prosperity to the region.
Our trade is in no way, going to help Pakistan pull out of the economic morass it is in, but it will create however small a community of well wishers for India in that country. which i think is quiet needed.
Military minds and Politicians could not create peace between both nations in the past 63 yrs, why? shouldnt we traders be given a chance?


Lets put it this way. You speak of moderate Pakis who need help. Fine. Now you will agree that Pakistan has some percentage of extremists who mean no good for India and Indians, right? But what about India? Is India not allowed to have rabid extremists who hate Pakis and would love to see them exterminated ruthlessly? Should Indians all rally around the a-monkey-asses/aman-ki-ashnas?

I don't think so. I am a rabid Pakistan hater. Self confessed. Pakis deserve no mercy. One might ask is it a Pakis fault that he was born Paki? Heck I don't care. It's not my fault that I am a Paki hater and the opinions of me and my ilk will have to be taken into account before conducting an orgy with those murderous Islamists. They are taught to hate me and I hav taught myself to hate them.

Here are images of the happiness caused to Indians by Pakistan. If it shocks you. Not my problem.

Image

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 14:32

Accidents will happen. Talks with Pakistan should be uninterrupted and uninterruptible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehgTIOmkmQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Uh9uLXjio

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby anmol » 19 Nov 2011 15:03

Inside story of the hunt for Bin Laden

The al-Qaida leader is said to be hiding in northern Pakistan guarded by a 120-mile ring of tribesmen whose job it is to warn of the approach of any troops.

Rory McCarthy
Saturday 23 August 2003 02.15 BST

Early in March, intelligence agents searching the western deserts of Pakistan thought they had finally tracked down the world's most wanted man. A convoy was spotted racing along one of the remote smugglers' routes which winds down from southern Afghanistan, through the sand dunes of Pakistani Baluchistan and into Iran. American intelligence agents had a tip that Osama bin Laden was in the group.

They seemed to have reason to be optimistic. Five days earlier Pakistani officers had scored the biggest success so far in the hunt for Bin Laden and his al-Qaida deputies. In a midnight raid they had arrested a ragged-looking Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the Pakistani Kuwaiti who was regarded as the third most senior figure in Bin Laden's network, a man described by the jubilant authorities in Islamabad as a "kingpin of al-Qaida."

Mohammad had been pinpointed when he made a satellite telephone call, which US military electronic eavesdropping tracked to Quetta, the provincial capital of Baluchistan. A computer and lists of phone numbers were recovered after his arrest, amounting to what the Pakistani interior minister, Faisal Saleh Hayat, called an "arsenal" of information.

That new information encouraged investigators to focus their attention on the sparsely populated deserts of Baluchistan. Within a few days they had spotted the convoy.

A major operation was mounted by Pakistani soldiers and US troops. There were reports of heavy gun battles around the Afghan border town of Spin Majid, with up to nine of the men in the convoy killed.

Baluchistan's interior minister appeared on television to announce that two of Bin Laden's sons had been captured. Then one Pakistani journalist broke the sensational news that Bin Laden himself had been caught.

Within hours, it became clear that he had not. In fact, several sources now say the intelligence tip was faulty: Bin Laden was never even in the convoy.

Those with knowledge of the operation have told the Guardian that two of the Saudi-born millionaire's sons had been led by Afghan warlords in the previous days down the same route, a well-trodden drug smugglers' path, and across into Iran. By the time the operation took place, there were still convoys of drug smugglers on the trail but the sons were gone.

"In the end it was just another flop," said Hamid Mir, a Pakistani journalist who has met Bin Laden three times and studied al-Qaida in detail.

"The intelligence agencies have totally failed with al-Qaida. They are such highly motivated people in al-Qaida that it is very difficult to break into the rank and file of the organisation."

That is one of the reasons why, almost two years after the September 11 attacks, Osama bin Laden has yet to be found.

But a Guardian inquiry has revealed that there are others. Experts who have been following the attempts of the Pakistanis and the US to find the al-Qaida leader have suggested that:

· The Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf, struck a deal with the US not to seize Bin Laden after the Afghan war for fear of inciting trouble in his own country;

· The al-Qaida leader is being protected by a three elaborate security rings which stretch 120 miles in diameter; and

· The Pakistani special forces looking for him are no closer than they were a year ago.

For the Americans, the March operation was yet another bitter lesson in the difficulty of tracking down Bin Laden. With the US election nearing and mounting concerns about Washington's second great military project - Iraq - George Bush more than ever needs the incalculable political boost that Bin Laden's capture would bring.

The Saudi's last known hiding place was in the caves of Tora Bora in the Spin Ghar mountains of eastern Afghanistan. It was December 2001 and the Taliban regime was collapsing across Afghanistan under the weight of America's bombing campaign.

Hundreds of al-Qaida fighters were holed up in the caves, where Bin Laden was heard making a radio address exhorting his men to fight. He also made a 33-minute video recording. Looking gaunt and tired, he described the September 11 attacks as "blessed strikes".

"We say that the end of the United States is imminent," he said. It was the last the world saw of him.

Bin Laden fled the mountains and spent the next six or seven months trying to re-establish his network, according to Mansoor Ijaz, a financier who has spent years tracking his movements and operations. In the small world of international terrorism analysts, Mr Ijaz, an American of Pakistani origin, knows al-Qaida better than most. He has close contacts in Pakistan's intelligence agencies and has worked, behind the scenes, as negotiator over Bin Laden in the past. In 1997 he was involved in negotiating attempts by Sudan to provide crucial information on the Saudi exile and worked on an attempt to have him extradited from Afghanistan through the United Arab Emirates in 2000.

In the same year he persuaded General Musharraf and his ISI intelligence agency to accept a rare ceasefire among Kashmiri militant groups.

Since 1991 he has been chairman of a New York-based hedge fund, Crescent Investment Management, which focuses on national security technologies and for which James Woolsey, a former chief of the CIA, is vice-chairman of the advisory board.

Mr Ijaz argues that the flight from Tora Bora badly disrupted al-Qaida's access to electronic communications: satellite phones, radios and email. "Initial communications were stopped and it took them a while to transplant and regroup," he said in an interview. "It was in a place where it was impossible for them to get communications across to anybody."

He suggests Bin Laden is hiding in the "northern tribal areas", part of the long belt of seven deeply conservative tribal agencies which stretches down the length of the mountain ranges that mark Pakistan's 1,500-mile border with Afghanistan.

Mr Ijaz, who has recently visited Pakistan, believes Bin Laden is protected by an elaborate security cordon of three concentric circles, in which he is guarded first by a ring around 120 miles in diameter of tribesmen, whose duty is to reportany approach by Pakistani troops or US special forces.

Inside them is a tighter ring, around 12 miles in diameter, made up of tribal elders who would warn if the outer ring were breached. At the centre of the circles is Bin Laden himself, protected by one or two of his closest relatives and advisers. Bin Laden has agreed with the elders that he will use no electronic communications and will move only at night and between specified places within a limited radius.

At first Bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, a bespectacled Egyptian doctor who is regarded as the potent intellectual force behind the al-Qaida net work, passed messages by word of mouth, what Mr Ijaz calls a "human chain-link fence". But the message system was inefficient; too many specific details were being missed.

"By the time they got from the first man to the 10th man, the messages had in fact become so distorted no one knew what they were talking about," he said.

And so Bin Laden began to use handwritten notes, more specific but potentially more of a risk. On March 16 Pakistani intelligence officers acting on information from US military eavesdroppers arrested Yassir al-Jazeeri in Karachi.

Al-Jazeeri, a Moroccan, was believed to be one of Bin Laden's closest bodyguards. In his pocket he carried a handwritten note from Bin Laden. It was perhaps the closest investigators had come to finding the trail of the al-Qaida chief.

For their part Pakistani officials say their intelligence on Bin Laden is still remarkably limited.

Many of the reports they receive of his movements, they insist, are simply wrong. "We have been getting reports of his presence across the border inside Afghanistan and along the border area also," Mr Hayat said in an interview.

"Not all reports have been credible at times. If others were credible we would certainly have been able to get near to him but certainly that has not been the position so far." Nevertheless Bin Laden, he said, remained a "fiercely hunted man."

The terrain of the tribal regions makes it almost impossible to find a single man intent on hiding, according to Mr Hayat. Local communities rule themselves, bound by deeply rooted codes of honour and respect which are enforced with vast armouries of weapons, ranging from assault rifles to heavy artillery.

Few would dispute Mr Hayat's complaints about the terrain. The tribal agencies have developed an infamy for their protection of wanted men. Even today Pakistani officers describe the immense difficulties they face operating in the tribal lands, an area without police and which the army never entered before September 11. Several hundred soldiers are required every time one house is searched. A handful of men are needed for the search, dozens more to protect them from the neighbours.

Some argue that the Pakistani authorities saw the difficulties from the start and, although they publicly stressed their commitment to the hunt for Bin Laden, in private they had a different strategy.

Mr Ijaz believes an agreement was reached between Gen Musharraf and the American authorities shortly after Bin Laden's flight from Tora Bora.

The Pakistanis feared that to capture or kill Bin Laden so soon after a deeply unpopular war in Afghanistan would incite civil unrest in Pakistan and would trigger a spate of revenge al-Qaida attacks on western targets across the world.

"There was a judgment made that it would be more destabilising in the longer term," he said. "There would still be the ability to get him at a later date when it was more appropriate."

The Americans, according to Mr Ijaz, accepted the argument, not least because of the shift in focus to the impending war in Iraq. So the months that followed were centred on taking down not Bin Laden, but the "retaliation infrastructure" of al-Qaida.

It meant that Gen Musharraf frequently put out remarkably conflicting accounts of the status of Bin Laden, while the US administration barely mentioned his name.

In January last year Gen Musharraf said he believed Bin Laden was probably dead. A year later he said he was alive and moving either in Afghanistan or perhaps in the Pakistani tribal areas.

Yet western diplomats say they believe the Pakistani authorities are committed to the hunt for Bin Laden, although they admit that frequently the official accounts of the timing and location of successful arrests do not square with reality.

Since Tora Bora, there has been a series of high-profile arrests. "I think there is no doubt they are very much against al-Qaida," said Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani general and security analyst. "I think the Americans find their reliance on the Pakistanis now is increasing."

In March last year police in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad raided a house on a tip from the CIA eavesdroppers and arrested Abu Zubaydah, one of Bin Laden's top associates and a man responsible for running two al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan.

On the anniversary of September 11, a raid in Karachi produced Ramzi al-Shibh, a Yemeni who was suspected of passing money and information between the teams of the September 11 hijackers and al-Qaida leaders in Afghanistan.

He was also an aide to Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, who was eventually picked up in Rawalpindi this March in the most significant arrest to date. Dozens of less high-profile men, responsible for providing shelter to al-Qaida figures or printing off fake passports, have been arrested.

"We were able to nab some of the very high-profile al-Qaida activists," Mr Hayat said. "We launched very successful operations all over inside Pakistan, arresting and neutralising those people who were involved in facilitating those people, who were the planners, the architects, the financiers."

For the future, the single greatest task facing the Pakistanis and the Americans will be to tame the powerful elders who run Pakistan's tribal areas and who appear to have given Bin Laden sanctuary. The danger is that the longer he remains uncaught, the bolder and stronger the surviving al-Qaida elements will feel.

"With so much of the retaliation infrastructure gone or unsustainable, Bin Laden's martyrdom does not pose nearly the threat it did a year ago," Mr Ijaz said.

Yet failing to catch the Saudi now could embolden the surviving al-Qaida forces. It was like "watching a radiation-hardened cancerous tumour regenerate and proliferate even more dangerously", he said.

"That's why Pakistan must now end the charade and get Bin Laden."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby menon s » 19 Nov 2011 15:21

"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby negi » 19 Nov 2011 15:24

^ Those words make sense in a certain context; you cannot quote a one liner specially when even Socrates did not know about TSP, I am sure he might take his words back if he would have been alive today. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Arav » 19 Nov 2011 15:30

[quote]By repeatedly establishing more and more contact with the Halal Islamic Virus (HIV), we have been infected by the disease of Acquired Intelligence Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS). As more and more contact with HIV increases, our immune system is collapsing[/quote]

Ajay Ji thats nice one..... :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Upendra » 19 Nov 2011 15:37

menon s wrote:^^^^^ Shiv sir, i beg to disagree with you here. There is a military , bureaucratic cliche in Pakistan for whom the enmity with India pays rich dividends. The mullah is in it for the money . But there are many people who have by now understand the fallacy behind two nation theory, they are patriotic Pakistanis but needs India`s help, especially the trader, business community. So whats wrong in buying cement, Marble and cotton from that country, and supplying them petroleum, pharmaceuticals and chemicals in return?


Commie birather, Patriotism in pakistan is defined as being anti-Indian and most of businesses are owned by pakistan military, so why do u want India to strengthen the very class which lives and thrives on hatred for India?

Your fellow traveler sister Ayesha Siddiqa has written a book titled Military Inc.: Inside Pakistan's Military Economy which lay bares the military inflitraion into paki owned businesses, so do read it.

menon s wrote:Military minds and Politicians could not create peace between both nations in the past 63 yrs, why? shouldnt we traders be given a chance?


Pakistan doesnt want peace with India or any Indians. It wants to kill us. The sooner you realise this fact its better.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 19 Nov 2011 15:49

menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


What is the point! If one really wants to love the Pakis, out of following Socrates, then so be it. It's free will but again when the snake bites the hand that feeds it, one shouldn't complain right! As, it is basic nature of a snake, knowing all the dangers, the feeding is being done, so such ACCIDENTS do happen.

The second point is all love with the Pakis for fear of going Kaboom under a mushroom cloud. Well, strengthening them adds to their power of blowing us out in a Mushroom cloud no? Can anyone guarantee that feeding the snake will make it loyal, history doesn't say so my friend.

The third point which you have overlooked is giving Paki back in kind. They are murderous war criminals, have been so, and circumstances say that they will be so for the near future, so why not treat a snake for a snake, keep a safe distance from it and always carry a big stick in case it rears its ugly head.

You really can't blame GOI for what they have done, they are a projection of us and our mentality only! Sorry, but its true.

Anujan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Anujan » 19 Nov 2011 15:51

Rangudu wrote:
So Ijaz is saying that Haqqani actually played a role in the Abortabad op i.e. perhaps tipping off Unkil. Now, this is pure speculation but the news of the memo has been out for weeks, so why is Kayani making a fuss about it all of a sudden? Did the locations of other key assets like S.Haqqani or Mulla Omar get to Unkil recently?


Unlikely that HH tipped anyone off. Some speculate that HH sent feelers saying that if US were to do unilateral strike inside Pakiland, HH can restrain the civvies if US asks Khakis to stand down.

Money plus US support of civvies in exchange for turning blind eye to strike. US gets OBL, army gets humiliated.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby anjan » 19 Nov 2011 16:05

menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?
Oh I suspect they won't quibble too much and accept our deaths as a win too.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby partha » 19 Nov 2011 16:19

Just scanned the "mainstream" US news websites. No coverage of this so called memogate. hmm...

What are the chances of HH getting qadrified?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby partha » 19 Nov 2011 16:26

Anujan wrote:
Money plus US support of civvies in exchange for turning blind eye to strike. US gets OBL, army gets humiliated.

hmm..other than being helpless, what else could the civvies have done? I don't think US needs to give money to civvies for turning a blind eye.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 17:10

menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


:D It's OK birather. There is method in my madness.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby vishvak » 19 Nov 2011 17:16

partha wrote:hmm..other than being helpless, what else could the civvies have done? I don't think US needs to give money to civvies for turning a blind eye.

From http://www.indianexpress.com/news/memog ... k/877778/0
Dawn: Why did President Zardari and Haqqani send a memo on such a sensitive subject? Why did they not send an oral message?
Mansoor Ijaz: It was their intent to do all of this verbally. But my US interlocutor who sent the memo to Adm Mullen insisted on having the ambassador’s offers in writing because the US had been repeatedly deceived by Pakistan’s verbal offers in the past. He also insisted I obtain the ambassador’s assurance that President Zardari had approved the offers contained in the memorandum. I did exactly those two things.

This is why US & Pakis talk more & also deceive more verbally. Once in black & white, pakis can't bluff the same way!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby rajanb » 19 Nov 2011 18:24

vishvak wrote:
partha wrote:hmm..other than being helpless, what else could the civvies have done? I don't think US needs to give money to civvies for turning a blind eye.

From http://www.indianexpress.com/news/memog ... k/877778/0
Dawn: Why did President Zardari and Haqqani send a memo on such a sensitive subject? Why did they not send an oral message?
Mansoor Ijaz: It was their intent to do all of this verbally. But my US interlocutor who sent the memo to Adm Mullen insisted on having the ambassador’s offers in writing because the US had been repeatedly deceived by Pakistan’s verbal offers in the past. He also insisted I obtain the ambassador’s assurance that President Zardari had approved the offers contained in the memorandum. I did exactly those two things.

This is why US & Pakis talk more & also deceive more verbally. Once in black & white, pakis can't bluff the same way!


There is a lot of taqleef in Pakiland on memogate. Abduls wondering how could a foriegn power be asked to intervene.

Total denial mode, like being in cuckooland, by the abduls, that they surrendered their sovirginity long back and are now well used.

I love this angst that they face. The slow turning of the screws to be savoured and relished.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby asprinzl » 19 Nov 2011 19:44

Tolerance if taken to extreme becomes cowardice.

Human history is all about self-preservation by any and all means. Those who fail to practice this maxim don't exist anymore....washed away by the tide of time and history. Those tribes and clans have gone extinct....taking with them their culture, language, civilization and their history.

We exist today because we fought when needed, hated when required, loved when we wanted and did many more other things to sustain ourselves and ensured our gene pool will out-live that of others for not only years or centuries to come but for thousands and thousands of years to come. It is called self-preservation. Today, some nations have lost the will to self-preserve. Some are so much into indulgence that they forgot to reproduce. Some are so repulsed by the sight of blood or warfare that they refuse to defend themselves or engage in warfare for preserving them. These nations too will cease to exist with time. Taking with them their history, culture and language that will only be remembered in pages of history book.

The Arabs, coming from the empty desolate desert have always engaged in such warfare that ensured the supremacy of their clan and tribes at the expense of other clans and tribes. Coming out of the desert, they imposed similar will on the conquered peoples.....imposing on these people Arab customs, Arab religion, Arab language and Arab history at the expense of the native customs, language, culture, religion and history...some of which that were more glorious than what the Arabs had. Where they could not impose their will in total, their will was imposed partially and what ever was possible. Thus we have many conquered nations that have completely been Arabized while Muslim nations on the outer-ring of the Arabized nations.

The Arabs are trying to ensure that their culture, language, religion and genes will outlast there rest of the people in this world. That is why they dream of the Caliphate. Non-Arab Muslim nations of the world (having lost touch with their native past) are playing the role of subalterns. Willing to lose everything for the glory of the Arabs. Pak-jabis are one of their subalterns.

India should practice the art of self preservation to the hilt. Hate when need be, love when can, a$$-kiss when required, fight like hell-hath no fury when they must.......to ensure the Indian gene pool, culture, language, history and civilization will last into the future. There has not been any higher goal or aspiration in all of human history but to ensure the propagation of the genes. Pacifism is a new phenomena. It will only ensure genetic suicide.
Avram

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 19:47

menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


Since when is being realistic about something equivalent to hate? Why don't you give the same loving attention to scorpions as you do to your pet dog? It is out of a recognition of reality.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 19:53

Now they notice the words banned in text messaging in Pakistan:
http://news.yahoo.com/pakistan-bans-obs ... 33488.html

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby SSridhar » 19 Nov 2011 20:04

rajanb wrote:I love this angst that they face.

I really don't know why Pakistanis are so riled up by the Zardari-Haqqani-Mansoor Ijaz-Mullen exchange of letters and the request by Zardari to stop the coup. Since Independence, The Pakistani leaders have run to so many nations and leaders (Grand Mufti of Makkah, UK, USA, Turkey, China, UAE, Jordan, Libya, Indonesia, and even Lebanon) for various reasons, begging them to intervene on their behalf in their internal and external issues. What is new ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Nov 2011 20:17

i am sure duspercenti calls washington every time he hears something go thud in the night

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby rajanb » 19 Nov 2011 20:22

SSridhar ji.

Its all about, which has been discussed here, the "education" that the state has imposed upon the abduls. Even with a civilian government the Military calls the shots. And the "education" they recieve teaches them that they are a sovirgin state, the caliphate principles, the purer than pure, the unbeatable military machine they have. Brainwashing, not so bad as the hiltler era, but enough of the gobbelisian technique that you repeat a lie enough times it sounds like the truth.

This "education" and terror as an instrument of state policy which they have and continue to embrace is ultimately going to lead to their downfall. I hasten to add, they haven't reached their yet, but they will sooner than later.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 20:23

shiv wrote:
menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


:D It's OK birather. There is method in my madness.


With Saturday evening whisky coursing in my veins, let me explain myself.

Let me assume Socrates said that. He said that because of the following knowledge gained from experience:
Party X provokes party Y. Party Y takes revenge. Party X then needs to avenge that, in an act that must in turn be avenged by Y leading to a vicious cycle where "an eye for an eye leaves both parties blind"


This is a fundamental observation of human behavior made by many wise people in the past. In game theory it is tit for tat leading to sorrowful consequences.

If you look at Islam, it is one of the most highly piskolgical doctrines on earth, A lot of subtle psychological games have been recognised and answers/punishments have been recorded for that. There are dozens of examples, but one amazing example that I recall is the business of "adultery with the eyes". The number of eye signals a woman and man can exchange despite the woman being covered up has not only been recognised and documented, but strictures have been placed against it - never mind that it is easy to badly misinterpret eye signals. in our college library there was a wimmens whom everyone would look at and every male would come out triumphantly reporting "Usha Kutty was looking at me".

So you see, there are one or two fundamental things about conflict that have been sussed out and codified in Islam long ago. One such thing is "negotiation". Negotiation can often lead to a disadvantage. So do not negotiate if you can kill instead. Negotiate only from a position of weakness. In a position of weakness it is OK to lie and OK to break fundamental rules of Islam for self preservation. These things are all openly documented and used. If we talk Pakis think we are weak the stupid sons of bitches. I hope the Indian government understands this. Pakis understand only the threat of death or real death. They need to face death at all times if we talk to them.

Pakistanis are being conciliatory ONLY because they see themselves in a position of weakness. You see, in the past, Islamic hordes (also Pakistanis whose heroes are those same islamic hordes) always understood that "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day". That is why they slaughtered all the men who could be a therat. And they took the women. This is a tried and tested technique of war. On the other hand, if you are weak, you must grovel and hope to save your own life, so that you can fight again another day. Mohammad the prophet of Islam did exactly that in the traty of Hudaibiya with jews.

Pakistanis must not be trusted.. If we deal with them we are warned that they must be made to stare down the business end of a gun barrel at all times. Pakistanis are not to be trusted. Socrates came before Islam.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Nov 2011 20:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby rajanb » 19 Nov 2011 20:32

A_Gupta wrote:
menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


Since when is being realistic about something equivalent to hate? Why don't you give the same loving attention to scorpions as you do to your pet dog? It is out of a recognition of reality.


Guptaji, :)
On one extreme is hate, a self consuming emotion. On the opposite side of the spectrum is that "the opposite of love - is indifference".

We should be in between. Not consumed and yet not indifferent. It should be a cold, calculating, reasoned, caliberated thinking. Knowing we want to avenge. And enjoying each turn of the screw.

Speaking of pet dogs and scorpions. I stayed in a place which was desolate and adopted eight dogs for security. The same place, during summer, when I went to the bathroom sink, I would notice scorpions in the sink. I turned on the tap to wash them away. There was no hate. Just the finality of the act.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby CRamS » 19 Nov 2011 20:53

SSridhar:

What is new is that they don't want to admit in public, least of all, appear as weak to us SDREs. Recall even HH once mentioned that there are so many Indian Americans in high positions, including in Obama administration, and since this causes heartburn to TSPians, Obama must consider TSP feelings before appointing Indian Americans. In other words, Indians cannot be Indians, India must not succeed because that causes Takleef to TSP. And when the Takleef causes 26/11 or Kaluchack type massacres, its India's fault and both "both sides" must sit down and talk peace, or India must help the so called "TSP moderates". I am just wondering, but in the history of modern nationhood, has there been any other country like TSP that has been appeased for fear that its thuggery will turn worse?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Pratyush » 19 Nov 2011 20:59

In order to destroy some thing that is out to destroy you, you need not hate it. You must understand it. Just do to it what it is seeking to do to you. :twisted:

Like the yanks have the saying, " Turnabout is fair play".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 19 Nov 2011 21:09

So that brings us to the conclusion folks - Let there be PISS on the Pakis! Amen.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby jamwal » 19 Nov 2011 21:14

menon s wrote:"Those who hate you, do not win until you start hating them." I donot remember the bloke who said, that, it seems to be Socrates! if my memory serves right. Any which way, i do not have the bandwidth to argue with you. If its our destiny to go under a mushroom cloud, who can stop it?


People who hated Socrates killed him by forcing him to drink poison. I don't think his refusal to be wary of his enemies did him any good.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 21:52

rajanb wrote:We should be in between. Not consumed and yet not indifferent. It should be a cold, calculating, reasoned, caliberated thinking. Knowing we want to avenge. And enjoying each turn of the screw.


No need even to enjoy. The clinical detachment of a surgeon excising a tumor is what is called for.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby tejas » 19 Nov 2011 21:58

A tumor cannot be surgically resected once it has widely metastasized. This tumor has already spread worldwide.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby harbans » 19 Nov 2011 22:19

If Pakidom has to be dispatched i say do it as Krisna advises Arjuna. With dispassion. Just as one goes about doing one's job..clinically. No hate. But i am certain Islam has never encountered a nation telling the Truth about it in totality, offering a haven to those that want to leave Islam and are trapped. India must do that before any attempt at clinical dissection of the tumor. The liberals and Psecs make it worse. The rendering of Ishwar, Allah tera naam, God is in all places so why can't i offer blessings and respects to Babars tomb or Chisti, or All religions preach the same...only helps in strengthening the Islamist. Tell them exactly the Truth. Give them a chance. Liberals, WKKs and Psecs are not allowing that chance to be given. Political correctness is not allowing millions of Muslims that want to escape the trappings a way out. No nation in the planet as of yet has the guts to say NO Islam does not intend to stay in peaceful coexistence and we must make moves to deal with it accordingly..all this has to happen in the first place before we think of blindly going to Kurukshetra. These are important considerations. They have never been conducted before in history. At a minor level when conducted it has been a grand success though. Now it is required on a much larger scale.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby habal » 19 Nov 2011 23:01

the only thing that makes sense in this new found love is that Pakistan is not directly responsible for all terror attacks in India. And people who are in the know are not at all keen on pointing out the real villain.

what if Abhinav Bharat & Indian Mujahideen (SIMI) are two parts of the same culinary sword arm ? In fact I would even go as far as to say that all radical violence prone socio-political organizations in India have their confidence thanks to culinary & western backup.

in any event of large-scale terrorism, one does notice certain familiar patterns in India. One group goes about blaming Abhinav Bharat & supporters and the other group goes about blaming IM & supporters. What if this is an orchestrated & well-prepared pre-planned act to fool and create confusion amongst the naive ? Who has asked for opinions of these people ?

that & Pakistanis are their own worst enemies. Even they know that nobody can or should trust them. But that is probably just their karma catching up.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Tumba » 19 Nov 2011 23:24

In military/bureaucratic circles of GOI, it is a well established fact that the only way to live in peace with Porks is to build a 100 mile high and 10 mile wide electrified wall on the borders and cut all sorts of economic and people to people communication with Shitiistan and also cut every connections between few million Porks on our side with thr biradars in Porkistan. A porki which is even 5 Kms near to that wall from Siachin to Indian Sea Boundary is split into two pieces of SHIT.

But this is simply not possible, it is impossible to fully insulate a neighboring country like that.

Now what are the alternatives :

* A big nuke war which breaks the military infrastructure of porks and cuts the lines from PRC, Arabs and USA to Shitistan, but this will
push our economy a good 20-30 years back. (So not recommended)

*The other way is to stop Political, Economic and People to People communication lines and try to block anything advantageous to porks : political or economic or military where ever we can. But this will not work we will see above average terrorist attacks on Indian soil with no other firm response from GOI other than the line they are already followig. PRC, Arabs standing by them and West ignoring and sometime giving them yellow signal to use them as much as possible.
The only thing India could do is to wait for Porkistan to blast itself back to middle ages and fully support the Porks inside who are working for that.

*Now the third way is to improve economic and people to people relations easing visa restrictions, improving trade ties with North India and Porks, but try to block passively anything advantageous to porks : political or economic or military where ever we can. This will not stop thr Military establishment to send terrorists but at least give us some leverage to lower that risk and wait for Porkistan to blast itself back to middle ages and fully support the Porks inside who are working for that.
Last edited by Tumba on 19 Nov 2011 23:43, edited 2 times in total.


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