LCA News and Discussions

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 19 Nov 2011 17:53

how could this be a bolt out of the blue...
judging by the explanations (monsoon etc) these were already known. so i wonder, what has changed in a matter of 3 months.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Nov 2011 20:59

by the power of constraints.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 19 Nov 2011 21:09

what sort of constraints?

Why I ask this is because the scope of activities that were planned before FoC were known.
I assume that by now the Dev team have had sufficient experience to be able to identify the risks prior to agreement of schedules.

So what has changed. I ask this not to criticize, but more to introspect as to what could be the reason(s) for the new delay.

i don't agree with the logic of monsoons as this is a known phenomenon and probably would have been factored into their risk assessment...so what else?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Nov 2011 21:37

Sorry I forgot to add the question mark at the end. We can only speak from the information available in the public domain.

Experience in identifying risk is one aspect, and transferring that experience to a different set of tasks is entirely new ball game. This reasoning applies day to day activities, to sports, and all things human.

There are other aspects in operations that designers would never think about. Take Microsoft word for example (metaphor).. you edit a document and delete some paras. Now beautify some other para.. and you want the deleted para back again keeping existing changes in normal edit mode. Then you go, gosh I should have turned on track changes in review mode. Well this is exactly what IAF will look at - usability.

May be there are tons of operational aspects missed, that can't be revealed in public domain.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 19 Nov 2011 22:14

Thing is, this plane will be "too little" "too late" for anything. The whole order of LCA will take 5 to 6 years to realize. That means 2022 at least.

Either we should admit that we are doing something wrong, or should all pour energy and resources in reserching any wanted technology for this project. Like we did for our guided missile projects.

All tall talks about AMCA and LCA MKII are in gutter until we get the basics right.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Nov 2011 22:41

yeah yeah.. all that you say is true.. but when it arrives late, we have the experiences that would not have been there if we had not chartered on it in the first place. The problem is in the charter and critical path management.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 Nov 2011 03:03

Every major breakthrough peogram goes through these tough cycles of frustating time and cost over runs. There is no other way but to cross this river of fire by drowning in it....

Look at what JSF is going through (read Philip's posts) and what Eurofighter went through from 2001 to 2009. It was made out to be biggest joke and waste of money that europe had ever seen. Things have changed for it and as of now, it is the best (and best selling) 4++ gen aircraft in the world. Oldies would remeber MKI fights at BRF in late 90s and early 00's (GerogeG's lotus eater and crow soup!!). We signed a deal in 1995-96 and got first fully developed MKI squadron in 2005-06. not to forget this was just an upgrade to an existing plateform by a past superpower.

Last phase of tests are really risky especially for first timers, engine stall and restart, spin recovery, 8-9G stress etc msut be giving people sleepless night......

In the end, if they deliver a decent product, I am sure it'll be bought in numbers (just like ALH, PINAKA and Akash) even if it is not state of the art or cutting edge. Also FGFA/Pak-FA coming by 2017-18 is akin to beleiving in tooth fairies. The thing isn't coming to India until 2025-2030. MRCA will see a lot of issues too, as they are not fully developed plateforms. American products were the only ones that could have been delivered with speed that IAF desires since they were matured programs at the end of their life cycle. IAF chose a fighter for future and that gain will come at a cost......AESA integration and full spectrum of IAF ASQR and offsets would take their own time. If IAF can show 2 operational squadrons of MRCA by the end of the decade I'll call it a good success.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Nov 2011 03:12

Yes.. think about Agni 2, and now its prime version A4. LCA++ must cross the biggest hurdle.. let us all pray well for it be used by our forces in numbers.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 20 Nov 2011 08:05

@ Not sure what will happen to LCA, but the fact remains we have built up the infrastructure & capabilities to design, test & to an extent manufacture a 4+ gen fighter. This is absolutely essential for us in future, as it has laid the foundations for AMCA, our UCAV & other programs. I still the think IAF will use the LCA, maybe not in the numbers we may want. At the least it could be an export model for smaller, friendly countries, who cant afford the ones offered by the west. My humble request is to not lose sight of the big picture ... My 2 cents.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 20 Nov 2011 09:42

At this stage of the program, lets just assume that even if the Govt suddenly gets hit by lightning and realizes that this program should be fast-tracked, what are the options we have? I mean as a jingo, every time I see a delay and blame the bureaucrats that they are not doing this fast enough. Maybe if the Gurus can educate impatient jingo SDREs like us that even if the ADA, the HAL and the Govt do decide to step on the gas pedal there is nothing that can be done to speed up the program due to the inefficiencies and shortcomings built up over the many years. I mean, seriously what are the options we have to speeden up the program if just for arguments sake we had all the govt support and money we can throw at the program?

1. We have already consulted for the testing phase to a phoreign firm.
2. We are already working with snecma for the engine
3. We have a full fledged air force senior office working 100% on coordinating with ADA on the LCA program.
4. We have already been working with the Israelis on the radar and that is almost done.

So what's missing?

1. Good project management? Can it be changed overnight?
2. Testing facilities for engine? But why, Kaveri has already been delinked from LCA
3. High quality technical personnel? Can that be built overnight? Even if we start now can it help the FOC timelines?

Maybe it will calm down the nerves of a jingo like me that there is nothing that can be done to speeden up the program even if the govt and powers that be wish to do so. More hopelessness to soothe whining?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Nov 2011 10:18

Let countries put sanction on us and stop selling us stuff and then see how quickly LCA/arjun and other stuffs are inducted..i wonder what will happen to agni missiles if russia or other countries agree to sell such a missile to us

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Nov 2011 11:29

People have little patience for operational readiness once they see it past FoC. The struggle is to get there. How fast we could have done, there are lot of methods and ways. But there is only certain ways, IAF will get it done.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Nov 2011 12:33

Yogi_G wrote: Maybe it will calm down the nerves of a jingo like me that there is nothing that can be done to speeden up the program even if the govt and powers that be wish to do so. More hopelessness to soothe whining?

Yogi_G, if you observe the few posts before and after yours, with no disrespect to the seasoned BRFites who posted them, this is what our project management and project communication has left us with - the need for prayers and sanctions to instill faith in the glorious outcome of mass production.

I do not agree with your suggestion that "nothing can be done". It has been said that the staff attrition rate is very high in HAL and DRDO because the salaries are limited by government pay scales and because of management bureaucracies. 10 years should have been sufficient time to get these right, don't you think? Instead, the attrition rate has worsened in recent times according to the articles linked above. I don't expect the situation in ADA to be any better than the situation in HAL and DRDO. Not too long ago, it was terrible: [Admittedly, this from NAL, but they were critically important to the LCA project]

Tarmak007 Jan 7, 2011: For 18 years, despite all odds, they chased a dream called LCA!

I couldn’t afford to buy a water purifier before 6th Pay Commission: Vijay Patel, Sc.F

Lot of good people left our team due to the poor salary structure. I remember my salary was just Rs 7,000 and once went in search of a water purifier which was costing me Rs 6,000. I had to abandon the plan. Actors get paid much more than us India and Cricket stars limitless. Scientists and engineers working for national programs, what can I say? I must admit, things have changed post 6th Pay Commission. We never went behind money. We invested in knowledge and we wanted to pass on its benefits to LCA. We are happy today, that IOC is round the corner. The bigger task is ahead. FOC. Our passion will never end. It grows along with the challenges. We are now battle-ready for anything.

It is not acceptable to expect the most technically talented in the country to work on one project alone for 2 decades, as boring as that can get to any human being, and that too with the limited remuneration of government organisations, and with the frenetic pace of a project wherein technology needs to be invented in the Indian context before it can be manufactured in a large scale. When you ask for so much, you must pay equally. Expecting the employee's national pride alone to suffice is really unfair.

Staff attrition aside, have you seen any reports to suggest that the LCA production line is ready? Even 40 Mk1 aircraft over 4 years would need a very substantial production line. I haven't seen any articles or photos to suggest that one exists. Nothing top-secret about a production line, is there? Nothing unforeseeable about the need to have one either, is there? So where is it?

If the GE F404 was plan A in lieu of a Kaveri in development, and the F414 became plan B, what was plan A and plan B for the indigenous MMR radar? Who decided that the risk in developing an indigenous radar, as if we had the semiconductors to start with, was so low that a Plan A and Plan B was not necessary?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 20 Nov 2011 13:15

PratikDas ji, I was referring to the possible actions from this point on, say starting today if the govt and powers to be realized the importance of the program and the delays it seems to be causing to other programs. Pay, talent building etc, as I mentioned earlier cannot be rectified immediately due to the accumulated inefficiences over the years. One first reading about the delay, my mind rang with "Why doesnt the govt or IAF" do anything about it. But on delving deeper, I wondered if there is anything at all they can do to fix things to meet the expected timelines?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Nov 2011 14:01

All I can say is that it is never too late. Even if the 2014 date is now inevitable, it is not too late to ensure there are no further delays from then on. 2 years is a long time to prepare. If there is no preparation on a war-footing now, like they'd all lose their jobs if they didn't get 40 Mk1 manufactured by 2018 while any finances they might genuinely need to make it happen would be made available immediately, you can take it for granted that there will be production delays even after FOC.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Nov 2011 10:01

Having seen how past timelines have been adhered to, wonder if the "four weeks" mentioned here will be similar to the Gorky or the Nerpa "4 weeks"?
Naval LCA will take to skies soon

The much awaited first flight of the naval variant of the light combat aircraft (LCA), Tejas, is scheduled in about four week’s time. The team behind the project is busy giving finishing touches.

Speaking to Deccan Herald, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) chief P S Subramanya said, “We have completed a series of ground tests and are almost through with the flight certification. We should have the first flight in the next four weeks.”

The LCA Naval Prototype-1 (NP1), which is a trainer aircraft, will take to the skies for the first time in mid-December, but not without the required caution.

Subramanya, pointing out the flawless flight record of the Indian Air Force-version of Tejas has had - with no crashes or failures reported - said: “We do not want to hurry up things in excitement and repent later.”

The IAF version of Tejas had its first flight on January 4, 2001. It has completed over 1,500 hours of flight, undergoing various tests, and has obtained the initial operational clearance (IOC).

Improvement

The LCA NP-1 though, will be different from its predecessor with a longer and stronger gear, front fuselage droop for better over-the-nose vision, an additional control surface to reduce carrier landing speed and consequential changes in various systems and will fly with a GE-F404-IN20 engine.

The LCA NP-1, designed specifically for ski jump take-off and arrested landing, is facing heavy undercarriage problem, which the team LCA is in the process of addressing.

A recent report said that it was bulkier by 500 kg. It had mentioned that the problem was first diagnosed in September 2010 and that the team has been in the process of reducing the same ever since.

The heavy undercarriage is being seen as one of the reasons for the delay in the maiden flight of the prototype. The aircraft, being developed for the Indian Navy, is likely to replace the Sea Harrier squadron, and already, orders for six aircraft have been placed.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Nov 2011 10:17

What is frustrating is we see these deadlines miss by a long margin even after so many flights and so many birds flying. WE had a report on LSP7's readiness a month ago(it said LSTT to be done by oct24th, hstt and nose up to be done after) and still the bird is not flying. By now with the maturity gained we should have a more accurate assessment of when things can be done, but we dont seem to have. IS it that we are hitting too many unforeseen issues even now ? IT is not a good sign if the answer is yes

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 21 Nov 2011 10:23

Noob pooch: Shouldn't the heavier landing gear just reduce the weapon carrying capacity ?? Which is mostly inconsequential for NP1. What could be the reasons for them to not fly this config and validate other stuff (like LECVCONS) while LG weight issues are sorted out ?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Nov 2011 10:57

Gurneesh ji - whether to fly it without the final configuration is a decision taken by naval project directorate at ADA. They have decided to do everything in one go so they might have reasons to do it

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 21 Nov 2011 11:49

suryag wrote:...after so many flights and so many birds flying...

Sadly if you see the weekly flight updates, its quite the opposite not many of the "so many" birds are flying, and even those that are flying are doing just 1-2 sorties a week.

My fear is two-fold:
1. Where is the risk assessment capability displayed by the LCA team when they make statements to the effect "NP1 will fly soon" where the soon is deliberately kept vague (and yes I have read Shiv-sir's post regaring the inability of Indians to relate to the concept of fixed schedules), yet it seems that we don't really have an idea of the timelines we commit to.

2. More critically, as many have mentioned before, I think the LCA would perhaps be relegated to another Marut.

I am willing to live with fear #2, but what worries me more is that if fear #1 is true, then does that mean we'll go through the same vague development timeline(s) for the AMCA?

The very statements which seem to defend the slippage of schedules w.r.t LCA shall hold true even for the AMCA.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 21 Nov 2011 11:56

************

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Nov 2011 12:02

Reading the headline I went, Oh no, not again. But reading the report, I went old news.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 21 Nov 2011 12:09

sorry for the old news but just my 2 cents doubt was, is this one of the reason for delays in the LCA which is yet to be solved or did the GoI sorted this issue out?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Nov 2011 12:25

Hindsight is 20/20 with that luxury and some aduacity i would like to state that project management was tardy wr.t monsoons. It is not that we didnt know Bengalur has seasonal rains for atleast the three months starting mid june. I udnerstand that there would be logistical issues if the testing fleet was moved to nagpur or some other station. But something could have been worked out say an on station skeleton staff on rotation and a high speed data link to bengalur could have helped the program progress further. Again these things are not rocket science or like difficulties in integrating a new weapon or fixing a high AoA issue it is planning. Atleast the people at the helm should have understood that they had to do something to not allow decades of their work to go waste in the last stage. Of course if it was technical difficulties which held up the progress then the delay is excusable, but if it is monsoon I dont think it sounds convincing. Add to all of this the media shyness that the team has and it is not surprising the sceptical attitude that the IAF displays, of course they are not lily white in this but the dev team has to take the maximum share for the delay.

Akimalik ji we have always been tracking the sortie rate and there have been 200 sorties this year, of this 30 were display ones durinng AI2011 so having 9 birds and hitting 170 sorties is quite low. Hope they are not anymore delays and the program runs full speed.

Apologise for the whines have been very frustrated with the pace

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 21 Nov 2011 14:34

I think the fuel leak issue have grounded the elcaaa for more than 4 months(It was reported that this was fixed).Looks like that would get the FOC delayed

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Nov 2011 14:37

^^^^ By 2 years?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Nov 2011 16:26

I couldn’t afford to buy a water purifier before 6th Pay Commission: Vijay Patel, Sc.F I remember my salary was just Rs 7,000 and once went in search of a water purifier which was costing me Rs 6,000. I had to abandon the plan.

This is bullshit - either lying or misquoted. The monthly pay of a Grade F scientist is described here http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=job_sc.jsp Basic Pay 37,400-67,000/- + Grade Pay 8900/- + benefits. A fresher in a Central Govt job - services or DRDO - in the year 2000 could afford his/her car in 3 years time and a house in employee cooperative or Jalvayu in 10 years. This before 6th pay commission.

Will · Post by **Will** » 21 Nov 2011 16:38

RIP.... Sighhhhhhhhh. No way should the AMCA be attempted without a foreign partner. Maybe not joint development but consultancy in critical areas cannot and should not be ignored.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 21 Nov 2011 16:42

Will that ensure AMCA will be inducted??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2011 16:44

I think too much is being made out of this 2014 FOC schedule given by Air Chief. Dr PSS had already flagged it in June 2010 interview to Force , which I did post here let me quote the relevant part from PSS.

The IOC is an understanding with the users i.e. IAF, telling CEMILAC to clear the aircraft in this particular standard of preparation. We will be providing the IAF with an aircraft that is equipped with a specific set of sensors, weapons, avionics, etc. and a particular standard of performance and functionality as declared in the ‘Standard of Preparation’. The IOC is a nomenclature used by the IAF and the ‘Release to Certification’ is provided by CEMILAC. The IAF will move towards FOC for the Tejas in 2014. We have to add a new CCM, BVR, extra weapons and it will also have a mid-air refueling system along with new drop tanks and few other refinements. We look at adding these features in the second lot of 20 aircraft.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Nov 2011 16:44

VinayG wrote:SORRY IF POSTED EARLIER FROM LIVE FIST

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RpAw8iHp5pg/T ... ltoday.jpg

Boss. Have a heart. People on BRF are following LiveFist on an hour to hour basis and you post a 3 month old bews item? Please?

Will · Post by **Will** » 21 Nov 2011 16:47

krishnan wrote:Will that ensure AMCA will be inducted??

Well at least they wont be able to sit on their butts months on end shrouded by secrecy with nothing moving. The consultants reputation will be at stake. Keeping in mind they choose a worthwhile consultant in the first place

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Nov 2011 16:47

krishnan wrote:Will that ensure AMCA will be inducted??

Just too early to talk on AMCA , we should focus on Tejas Mk2 ( and Mk1 ) and make sure the former gets inducted in time with all the promised bells and whistles and with production line set up to churn it out.

Before we do Big things Right , We should learn to do Small Things well.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 21 Nov 2011 19:59

tsarkar wrote:
I couldn’t afford to buy a water purifier before 6th Pay Commission: Vijay Patel, Sc.F I remember my salary was just Rs 7,000 and once went in search of a water purifier which was costing me Rs 6,000. I had to abandon the plan.
This is bullshit - either lying or misquoted. The monthly pay of a Grade F scientist is described here http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=job_sc.jsp Basic Pay 37,400-67,000/- + Grade Pay 8900/- + benefits. A fresher in a Central Govt job - services or DRDO - in the year 2000 could afford his/her car in 3 years time and a house in employee cooperative or Jalvayu in 10 years. This before 6th pay commission.

Not correct, highest pay grade was ~Rs 25K in 5th pay commission, what you are quoting is the 6th pay commission structure.

Although his Rs 7K/month is also not correct. PaY scale started at that level (+ grade pay etc)for fresher but most were getting 150+% on top of that in inflation protection. 6th pay commission has really been very generous to scientists with faster promotions additional increments and grade pays etc. Nice that for once those employees feel taken care off.....

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 21 Nov 2011 20:22

with 6th pay commission salaries of govt employees have been increased by 2.5 times
so according to this a freshly hired scientist with bachelor degree would earn no less than 30-35 monthly. which is more than enough to afford a car.

not to forget that the retirement money also increased by 3 times means when a scientist retires he will get no less than 25 lakhs and this is for lowest rank people but if it would have been few years ago an same employee would get hardly 10 lakhs on his retirement .

moreover their pensions also increased by 2.5 times

those scientists who where getting 30000 few years ago they now getting around 1 lakh per months and this is more than desirable.

and for armed forces a new officer at lowest rank earns 40000 a months and a jawan earns 16-18000 per month.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Nov 2011 21:07

ek lac in desh = 10 lac in masa. pretty decent imho.

vic · Post by **vic** » 21 Nov 2011 21:17

For a Govt servant One lakh take home means around Two lakh actual due to lot of (genuine) benefits like LTC, DA, EPF, Gratuity, Pension etc etc

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Nov 2011 21:41

Will wrote:
krishnan wrote:Will that ensure AMCA will be inducted??
Well at least they wont be able to sit on their butts months on end shrouded by secrecy with nothing moving. The consultants reputation will be at stake. Keeping in mind they choose a worthwhile consultant in the first place

bah! consultants are jokes. they will get paid, and we can't even negotiate with them.

I can consult, and say the turbine pressure is not correct - redesign for optimization.. and give all those 200 page info and what is the problem.

How the heck without experience and expertise, one would do this? These are secrets that no one will give you..one has to put efforts.. talents need to retained and focused and keep them engaged.

paying the talented people is worth more than consultants and firangs in the longer run.

OTOH, are you suggesting to get those import workers from Snecma, GE and PW, Elta to work on Kaveri and MMR?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Nov 2011 21:56

Austin wrote:I think too much is being made out of this 2014 FOC schedule given by Air Chief. Dr PSS had already flagged it in June 2010 interview to Force , which I did post here let me quote the relevant part from PSS.

The IOC is an understanding with the users i.e. IAF, telling CEMILAC to clear the aircraft in this particular standard of preparation. We will be providing the IAF with an aircraft that is equipped with a specific set of sensors, weapons, avionics, etc. and a particular standard of performance and functionality as declared in the ‘Standard of Preparation’. The IOC is a nomenclature used by the IAF and the ‘Release to Certification’ is provided by CEMILAC. The IAF will move towards FOC for the Tejas in 2014. We have to add a new CCM, BVR, extra weapons and it will also have a mid-air refueling system along with new drop tanks and few other refinements. We look at adding these features in the second lot of 20 aircraft.

Thanks Austin. Yeah, earlier too you brought this to our attention. I link your post...http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 55#p984755

DRDO, however, contends Tejas, which has "all the features of a fourth-generation fighter'', will cross the FOC barrier as planned. "Certification is a long-drawn process. It does not mean there are delays. We are very hopeful Tejas will get the FOC in December 2012,'' said a senior DRDO official.

If they are sounding optimistic, I say, lets give them the chance. But I guess, it will slip over to 2013.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Nov 2011 22:22

This is very interesting.

Jun. 2010: IAF says FOC in 2014
Oct. 2011: DRDO says FOC in Dec. 2012 [Monsoon well underway]
Nov. 2011: IAF says IOC-2 some time mid 2011 and FOC in 2014

Sounds to me like there is a tug of war between IAF requirements and DRDO scope for 2012.