Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2011 09:49

dada wrote:#shiv

Indian culture is largely a forgiving culture.
<snip>
r u joking by making this statement ? . I think they are totally incapable & unwilling to do that !
It is now an integral, unseparable & atoot ang of their DNA . If you are referring to the reconstruction of the very foundation of their thought & behaviour, then please note that it is a MULTI-GENERATIONAL Project that would demand consistency in the first place. Such a Change is much more likely to be a steep & discontinuous CHANGE (brought about by a rapid & sudden SHOCK) , not a gradual one.

Why can't radical Islam be wound up and checked? It can be done. First Pakistan has to be forced to do it. The rest of the world will follow suit. No need to be "gracious" and forgiving by saying "Oh they can't do it. It is in their DNA". Balls Radical killer Islam must be stopped. By mollycoddling Pakis we are sending the signal that they can believe that Allah allowed them to hit India when they wanted and later when they wanted help from India Allah allowed that. This is exactly how Islamists, fostered by the two nation theory think If we haven't understood that after 64 years we are losers all right.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Nov 2011 09:52

shiv wrote:
dada wrote:#shiv

Indian culture is largely a forgiving culture.
<snip>
r u joking by making this statement ? . I think they are totally incapable & unwilling to do that !
It is now an integral, unseparable & atoot ang of their DNA . If you are referring to the reconstruction of the very foundation of their thought & behaviour, then please note that it is a MULTI-GENERATIONAL Project that would demand consistency in the first place. Such a Change is much more likely to be a steep & discontinuous CHANGE (brought about by a rapid & sudden SHOCK) , not a gradual one.
Why can't radical Islam be wound up and checked? It can be done. First Pakistan has to be forced to do it. The rest of the world will follow suit. No need to be "gracious" and forgiving by saying "Oh they can't do it. It is in their DNA". Balls Radical killer Islam must be stopped. By mollycoddling Pakis we are sending the signal that they can believe that Allah allowed them to hit India when they wanted and later when they wanted help from India Allah allowed that. This is exactly how Islamists, fostered by the two nation theory think If we haven't understood that after 64 years we are losers all right.

What is to be done when we have people like the singh parivar actively collaborating with the porkis ??

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Nov 2011 10:01

Kabira baitha Drone pei, Ghinti Karta jayeee
Jyon Jyon Hellfire Challe
Jannat nerree Ayeee!!!

Gubo Kiya tho Kya Hooa , SauVirginity Khoi Na jayye
Jyon Jyon yeh Mush Fatte, Cheena Jowrrta jayee .

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Nov 2011 10:07

# shiv

Models for Cultural Change in Pak
=========================
1.Top Down Strategy ( Brute Force / Jhatka Approach)
2.Grassroots Level Approach ( Aman Ki Asha ? People to People Contact ?? )
3. Champion Strategy (led by Emerging leaders aka Imran Khan ??)

What is most likely to work ?
Till india continues to bear the cost of pakistan's learning (change in its behaviour towards the world & india in particular)

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 10:09

SSridhar wrote:Pakistanis feel it is time to clear mistrust with India by MEENA MENON
Why is it time now ?
This Indian author is part of a delegation of journalists from Mumbai who recently visited Pakistan and came back suitably impressed. She, therefore,appallingly says this in the context of 26/11,
Karachi itself witnessed two blasts while the delegation was visiting, and much like Mumbai, the people seemed to take them in their stride.
Other quotes
. . . the recent granting of Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status by Pakistan to India {Now, that is a lie. That has not happened}
Vice-Chancellor Pirzada Qasim Raza Siddiqui [of Karachi University] says the university is collaborating extensively with Indians, political differences aside. Many students come from India {Why are Indian students going to Karachi Univeristy ?}

Activists like Karamat Ali and B.M. Kutty from the Pakistan Institute of Labour Education and Research condemn 26/11 and stress the need to push for free exchange of media.

So let's hear what inbred porki media baron has to say about india and peace.

Media baron wants India to be defeated in a nuclear war
http://www.viewpointonline.net/Old/full ... 010&m=june

'Our missiles and nuclear bombs are superior to India's ghosts, so tackling India is imperative. Don't worry if a couple of our cities are also destroyed in the process': Majeed Nizami
Shakil Chaudhary
India is Pakistan's eternal enemy. Unless we defeat it in a nuclear war, it will keep plotting conspiracies against Pakistan, said Mr Majeed Nizami, the owner of the Nawa-i-Waqt, The Nation, and Waqt TV channel, while addressing a function in his honour (Nawa-i-Waqt, June 24). Our missiles and nuclear bombs are superior to India's ghosts, so tackling India is imperative, he declared. "Don't worry if a couple of our cities are also destroyed in the process."

Dr Mujahid Kamran, vice chancellor, Punjab University, Syed Asif Hashmi, chairman, Evacuee Trust Property Board, Bushra Rahman, MNA, Niaz Hussain Lakhvera, director, Lahore Art Council, Pervez Malik, PML-N MNA and finance secretary, Shoaib Bhutta, a staunch journalist friend and fan of President Zardari, and Khushnood Ali Khan, chief editor of Jinnah newspaper, paid glowing tributes to the "living legend". Mr Bhutta blasted the Jang Group by saying that Aman ki Asha was a conspiracy to turn Pakistan into Hindus' slave. "They want to annihilate the two-nation theory." Only Majeed Nizami can stop the Hindu culture from entering Pakistan in the garb of Aman ki Asha, he added. Pervez Malik described Mr Nizami as the most credible (motabir) personality in Pakistan. He also praised Mr Nizami's position on the Kashmir issue, saying that it deserved to be followed by everybody. Only Majeed Nizami's power and force can save Pakistan, said Mr Lakhvera. Khushnood Ali Khan said that one of the missiles should be named after Mr Nizami.

Mr Nizami has changed his rationale for initiating a nuclear war with India. The Nawa-i-Waqt (Nov 5, 2008) quoted him as saying: "Pakistan should not hesitate to use nuclear weapons to wrest Kashmir from India". He had also said that his fondest wish was to turn himself into a nuclear bomb and get dropped on India. In the 1980s, General Zia once invited him to accompany him to India. He angrily turned down the invitation saying "If I ever go to India, I will travel by tank."

As for his position on the Kashmir issue, the Nawa-i-Waqt (Mar 8, 2008) quoted him as saying that "Kashmir is our jugular vein. Anybody who shows flexibility on this issue is a traitor." So all those Pakistanis who do not have a totally uncompromising position on Kashmir are traitors. It will be pretty hard even for shining patriots like Nawaz Sharif and Mushahid Hussain to escape the epithet.

rajanb wrote:From the Nut Case and posted in full:
Spreading Two-Nation Theory message need of hour Published: November 26, 2011 http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... ed-of-hour

MULTAN/LAHORE - Speakers at ‘Pakistan Paendabad Conference’ held under the aegis of Nazria Pakistan Trust (NPT) on Friday, were unanimous on the point that it was vital to propagate the message of Two-Nation Theory in every nook and corner to save the country.

They warned that ideological warriors of Pakistan will throw out Qabaza mafia and opportunists if they tried to use country’s resources for personal benefits. They lamented that Qabza mafia disseminated doctrine of necessity setting aside the ideology of Pakistan.

Addressing the conference, former foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said that era of the politics of right and left had passed by and now was the time only for ‘right and right politics’. He alleged that PM Gilani and President Zardari got votes in the name of Benazir Bhutto and later betrayed her cause.

While addressing Pakistan Paendabad Conference at Multan, he threw a challenge on Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, asking him to contest bye-election from NA-148 against him to test his popularity. PM Gilani would come to know about his popularity and status if he dared face him in the bye-election on the seat he has vacated recently.

“I assure him that I would not demand his resignation if he lost the election,” the former foreign minister said while addressing to the prime minister. He (PM) was also free to use official resources to run his election campaign, he said. “However, I am telling him before time that defeat had become his fate”, Qureshi averred.

He also dared the government to stop his November 23 rally to be held at Ghotki (Sindh) if it had the courage. He said he would address the rally at any cost. He repeated his allege that President Zardari pressurised him for clearing way for the release of Raymond Davis, “but I refused to oblige him”.

Qureshi lauded the role of Nazria Pakistan Trust in propagation of Pakistan’s ideology. “Mujahid-i-Pakistan, Mr Majid Nizami has always played positive role for country’s solidarity and integrity”, he said, adding that no power on earth could stop Pakistan from becoming a super power if he (Majid Nizami) succeeded in disseminating the message of Ideology of Pakistan. He alleged that inefficient rulers had weakened Kashmir cause by deviating from Pakistan’s principled stance on the issue.

In his telephonic address to the conference, The Nation Editor-in-Chief and NPT Chairman Majid Nizami said that he wished to see a united Muslim League because it was the mother political parties of Pakistan.

He held that the purpose to hold such conferences in various cities of Pakistan was to create awareness among the people about Pakistan Ideology. “We are telling people that Pakistan will live on the globe till the doomsday,” he asserted.

NPT Forum Multan had organised the conference. Majid Nizami congratulated the forum for successfully arranging the event. People from various walks of life attended the moot.

“Quaid-i-Azam wanted to make Pakistan an Islamic welfare democratic state according to the vision of Allama Muhammad Iqbal,” he held. Majid Nizami reiterated that India has been hatching conspiracies to turn the Pakistani land into desert, adding India could be stopped from going ahead with such bad plans only by the use of power. He suggested: “We should not avoid using atomic weapon against the India.”

He told the participants about the series of Livelong Pakistan Conference organised by the NPT forums in Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindia, Islamabad, Sialkot, Nankana Sahib and Mirpur. Though Multan was the city of feudal lords yet they played great role in Pakistan Movement, he said.

Majid Nizami referred to various speeches of the founder of Pakistan and said that Quaid wanted to establish an Islamic state and not the state for the affluent people and for feudal lords. But after his early death and due to the martyrdom of Liaqat Ali Khan later, the Muslim League split into different factions and it still remained divided. He said that he wanted to see a united league because it was the mother political party of Pakistan.

Speaking on the occasion, NPT Vice-chairman Dr Rafique Ahmad said that country was under the grip of different mafias which had stopped the wheels of development. Dr Rafique said that Pakistan Paendabad Conference had provided a platform to the disillusioned youth to protect Pakistan Ideology.

Muhammad Ali Durrani said that holding of such conferences was indicative of the fact that at least one institution was struggling to save the country without the thought of any loss or gain.

Mohtarma Majida Wyne said that country was going through crucial phase but Majid Nizami was struggling to give hope to the nation by inculcating the spirit of Pakistan Ideology in the minds of country’s youth.

Senator Javed Ali Shah said that successive martial laws in the country proved to be a great set back to Two-Nation Theory which was ignored by the military rulers. Dr Hameed Raza Siddique said that it was necessary to spread the message of Two-Nation Theory and highlight the sacrifices of Muslims to keep the country intact.

Various resolutions were passed on the occasion. The government was demanded not to grant MFN status to India until the solution of Kashmir issue as per the wishes of Kashmiris. The government was also asked to ban the ‘Amn ki Aasha’ movement and to include the Pakistan Ideology into the educational curriculum at all level. (Thanks for listening to BR) Immediate settlement of the flood affected people and release of Dr Afia Siddique from American jail was also demanded.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2011 10:13

arun wrote:Secret of Shamsi Base revealed as closure ordered

A scant two days ago the Islamic Republic of Pakistan of making a major song and dance of US drone attacks and suggesting that they were unwilling victims of events it now transpires they actively supported by providing basing rights

WikiLeaks exposed that hypocrisy when Kayani was seen pleading with the Americans to expand the coverage of the national bird.

That ordering of the Shamsi Airbase raises another question. When the Abbottabad raid took place and everyone suspected that the American attack helicopters had refueled at Shamsi, the Pakistani air Force chief stunningly revealed in the National Assembly that the Shamsi airbase was no longer in Pakistani possession and was under the control of the UAE since the 90s ! So much for sovereignty ! But, the UAE immediately called the Pakistani bluff when it denied that it had any operational role in the Shamsi airfield, although, the official, said wealthy Arabs have occasionally used it to fly to Pakistan on hunting expeditions. Earlier, when similar news broke out in c. 2005, the UAE was similarly upset about such leaks. Gen. Tommy Franks has written in his book that the Shamsi airfield belonged to Sheikh Zayed.

The question is therefore, has Pakistan got the jurisdiction to order the US to shut down that air strip ?

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Nov 2011 10:18

^^^ Seems more and more like that there is in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan some Islamic doctrine that says since “taqiyya” is religiously permitted it is the duty of all good Mohammaddens to accept the fiction that the Pakistani Military and Government is not actively conniving with the US to see that drone attacks continue

.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Nov 2011 10:19

X Posted from the “Mumbai Terrorist Attack –News Stories And Time Line” thread.

Excerpt from the Times of India interview of our Home Minister Mr. P. Chidambaram on the third anniversary of the Islamic Terrorist 26/11 attack of Mumbai instigated by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Q. Pakistan is supposed to send a judicial commission to India in connection with the 26\11 probe? Pakistan says it is ready. When is it happening? Where is the delay?

A. There is no delay in our part. We had always said that the judicial commission can be sent to India. Then, they wanted to know the name of the judge and the venue. Both of which have been communicated to them. Now, they will have to indicate the date and send the commission.

Q. Pakistani judicial commission is supposed to take statements from the magistrate, investigating officer of the case and doctors. It will then submit its report to the court. What if, the court there does not accept all this as evidence to prosecute the accused? What will be the next step then?

A. See, what they are coming here for is to gather what we call formal evidence...talk to the magistrate who recorded the confession, two doctors who did the post-mortem and the investigating officer. This is not the substantial evidence to prosecute the accused there. They must first arrest the real accused. I have pointed out to my counterpart that among the persons who have been accused in the case only two are key players. The others are only the foot-soldiers. The real culprits are still at large. They will have to be arrested. I have given them (Pakistan) names. The accused have to be interrogated, chargesheet has to be filed against them, and the evidence has to be presented against them. I don't think we should allow ourselves to be deluded by the argument that the evidence that they'll collect in India will convict those accused. The evidence that is collected in India is purely formal evidence.

Q. There have been anti-India rallies in Pakistan this week where Jamaat-ud-Dawa ( JuD) chief Hafiz Saeed openly gave inflammatory speeches. Pakistan continues to allow him to do that. He is roaming free as the country's interior minister Rehman Malik says there is no evidence against him.

A. Free speech does not extend to threatening another country. Do we allow free speech in this country that threatens Pakistan, that threatens that militants or young men will enter Pakistan and commit acts of violence? A separate dossier has been given to them on Hafiz Saeed with a CD containing his speeches. The United States has named JuD as a terrorist organization and asked Pakistan to name it as a terrorist organization. I think it is completely unacceptable for Pakistan to say they have no evidence against Hafiz Saeed. Hafiz Saeed must be investigated. He must be interrogated. But, if you treat him as a state guest for a while and then let him go and do whatever he does and say whatever he says, it only brings into the question the credibility of the Pakistan government.

Q. What is your take on reports that the 26\11 terror attack case accused Zaki-ur-Rehman-Lakhvi and others are freely using mobile phones in jail there?

A. I am inclined to believe it (the reports) because I know that jail security all over the world is extremely porous and very poor. Even in Indian jails, hardened criminals have access to mobile phones. I am inclined to believe that Lakhvi and others had access to mobile telephones in Pakistani jails.

Q. What about the promise of Pakistan to give 'voice samples' of the 26\11 terror attack case accused to India. You had raised the issue when you were in Pakistan in June last year. What happened to that promise made by your counterpart Rehman Malik?

A. They haven't (given voice samples). We have several times asked for it ...through our high commissioner, through home secretary level talks...we have asked for the voice samples. We have given names of persons that they should arrest, who we think are the key persons. But they have not arrested them. They have not given us their voice samples. I have raised it with the Pakistan high commissioner who called on me about three weeks ago. I asked him what happened to the offer of voice samples, what happened to my request that the six or seven persons should be arrested. He had no answer.

Read it all:

Pakistan treats Hafiz Saeed as a state guest instead of interrogating him: Chidambaram

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 10:23

Let us say pakis are given a choice:
a) ideology: they can have ideology, but they will be enslaved, starved and dishonoured. Their women folk would be used as sexual playthings. Their children will not be spared. And they have to beg to eat. If they revolt against this system, they will be killed.
b) change ideology: they can change the ideology and live happily ever after.

What will be the choice of pakis be?
-Since pakis are heavily radicalised, let us say that about 10% would keep their ideology and fight and get killed.
-Let us say 25% pakis choose ideology and wallow in slavery.
-The rest of 65% will be ready to change their ideology.
-The descendents of those 25% pakis would face the same choice again. Atleast some of them will change their ideology.

This algorithm can keep running until all pakis change ideology.

So, theoritically, it is definitely possible for pakis to change their ideology. But for that they need to be given a stark choice...

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Nov 2011 10:45

X Posted from the “Mumbai Terrorist Attack –News Stories And Time Line” thread.

Excerpt from the Hindustan Times interview of our Home Minister Mr. P. Chidambaram on the third anniversary of the Islamic Terrorist 26/11 attack of Mumbai instigated by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Pakistan has not done much on punishing the culprits of 26/11. Is it unwillingness or inability?

Both. Before we try to answer that, we must ask the question, who is in charge of Pakistan. ISI and the army have significant control over security matters. The civilian government is unable to decide the course of action; is weak and unwilling to risk any confrontation with army or ISI. That's why it is unable to keep its promises to us.

There have been talks about a joint mechanism between India and Pakistan to fight terrorism. You think it can help?

I have not supported the idea. How can we share intelligence with a country that we know has state actors, non-state actors and rogue elements who are acting against India. I think any joint effort with Pakistan on the terror front is very far away until we have a government in that country that is in control and is willing to fight terrorism.

Read it all:

Bold decisions are long overdue

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 27 Nov 2011 10:54

I found a place in Baconistan which is free of terrorists

Posted in full from the News.peekay

NATO forces were not chasing militants: DG ISPR

RAWALPINDI: Military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas while speaking to Geo News said NATO could not make the excuse that they were chasing terrorists across the border because the area where the attack took place had been cleared.

Abbas said NATO had been provided maps of all Pakistani check posts as reference and they had been informed about their positions. (Tut-tut. The ISPR forgot to mention that this was occupied. Shame on you)

The military spokesman also said that the attack took place within 200-300 meters within Pakistan’s borders and added that the area had been cleared of militants.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 11:29

This news item cropped up 2 days before this..

33 Killed in US Copter downing: Nov 24th

Taliban militants say they have shot down a helicopter operated by the US-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in the troubled eastern Afghanistan, Press TV reported.

Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said the militants successfully targeted the helicopter on Thursday in the Qarabagh district of Kabul Province, and all 33 foreign troops on board were killed in the incident.

However, ISAF dismissed the Taliban's claim, saying a mechanical failure forced the helicopter to make an emergency landing.

The Western military alliance added that all the crewmembers were rescued and there were no casualties in the incident.

In another incident, thirty-one US special operation troops and seven Afghan commandos were killed when their CH-47 Chinook helicopter crashed in the early hours of August 6 in Afghanistan's eastern province of Wardak.

The Taliban claimed they downed the helicopter with rocket fire while it was taking part in an attack on a house where militants had gathered.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai made the first announcement of the number of people killed in the crash and the presence of US special operations troops.

US President Barack Obama also commented on the crash.

"Their deaths are a reminder of the extraordinary sacrifices made by the men and women of our military and their families, including all who have served in Afghanistan," Obama said in a statement.

There's a possibility that the August attack was traced back to these 2 posts having supplied supportive fire. Amerikhans have been getting a 1st hand preview of Paki perfidy last few years. My guess is ISAF knew exactly what they were doing.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 27 Nov 2011 11:33

Can we expect Nawaz Sharif to file a case in Paki Supreme Court seeking probe and high treason charges against civilian govt AND military for providing paki soil to US to be used against themselves? Is this not loss of sovirginity?

It will be fun if every one files high treason charges against others - may be a unique case in the world.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Nov 2011 11:34

harbans wrote:There's a possibility that the August attack was traced back to these 2 posts having supplied supportive fire. Amerikhans have been getting a 1st hand preview of Paki perfidy last few years. My guess is ISAF knew exactly what they were doing.

In such a case, khan people should know whats going on. Its the tax money of khan people. How weird it is that of the whole world, the pious ally is throwing daggers when no one is watching.

Another important fact is that when the pious throws daggers, the most talented and trained along with the best & expensive equipment that has traveled half the world is assassinated and trashed when no one is watching. On the other hand, khan biradrs are getting world wide notoriety for a skirmish at the border from the ever-complaining never-forgiving warring-by-thousand-cuts pious ally - top to bottom pious biradrs.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 11:44

harbans wrote:
There's a possibility that the August attack was traced back to these 2 posts having supplied supportive fire. Amerikhans have been getting a 1st hand preview of Paki perfidy last few years. My guess is ISAF knew exactly what they were doing.

it seems US and Pak are fighting within hijab.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2011 11:57

War games spotlight China-Pakistan Hype - DT

Paratroopers hurtling head first out of planes, attack helicopters strafing a terror training centre and shacks blown to bits were this week’s latest embodiment of China-Pakistan friendship.

The war games conducted by 540 Chinese and Pakistani soldiers running around scrubland - the fourth joint exercises since 2006 - were ostensibly a chance for China to benefit from Pakistan’s counter-terrorism experience.

There was disappointment that fighter jets were unable to carry out a bombing raid, with visibility apparently poor, but the exercises were declared a success in terms of deepening friendship and improving military cooperation.

But behind the pomp rolled out for the Chinese, complete with slap-up marquee lunch and bags of presents, the relationship is as transactional as any other as China competes with Pakistan’s arch-rival, India, for Asian dominance.

And it is far from easy to decipher. “They operate silently so as not to make any statements in public apart from cliches. So one doesn’t know what’s happening,” said retired Pakistani general Talat Masood. China is Pakistan’s main arms supplier, while Beijing has built two nuclear power plants in Pakistan and is contracted to construct two more reactors.
But the alliance has been knocked by Chinese accusations that the separatist East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which wants an independent homeland for Xinjiang’s Muslim Uighurs, is training “terrorists” in Pakistani camps.

Those accusations mirror long-standing concerns from the United States that Taliban and al Qaeda bases are funnelling recruits to fight in Afghanistan and hatch terror plots against the West.

During the exercises outside Jhelum, 85 kilometres southeast of Islamabad, generals watched troops attack, clear and destroy a mocked-up training camp, while smoking and sipping cups of tea under a giant tent to keep off winter rays.

Chinese deputy chief of staff Hou Shusen and Pakistan’s army chief Ashfaq Kayani sat together in the front row, guests of honour incapable of talking to each other without the help of an interpreter.

“We have done our utmost to eliminate this threat of ETIM and other extremists {So, TSP is saying that it cannot do anything more unless China gives more aid & bribes} for China because we consider honestly that China’s security is very dear to Pakistan,” Kayani told a news conference after the war games.

He said that Pakistan had provided intelligence during the 2008 Beijing Olympics and the 2010 Shanghai Expo, and reiterated demands for closer military cooperation and larger imports of military hardware from China.

Beijing was instrumental in getting the United Nations and United States to blacklist ETIM as a terrorist organisation in 2002, but experts have questioned how much of a threat such a small group of people really poses.

Pakistani analysts believe members number no more than hundreds and are fairly dispersed in the remote mountains on the Pakistan-China border.

Despite that issue, if the language used to describe Pakistan’s febrile relationship with the United States is that of an unhappy couple wishing but unable to divorce, then the hyperbole used to describe China is that of an ecstatic lover. {Only a banana country lives on such word plays}

“Higher than mountains” and “sweeter than honey” were phrases used by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani when Chinese Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu came to town in September, at a time when relations with the US were at their most difficult in years.
But independent China analyst Michael Dillon says that without any real ideological links, China’s relationship with Pakistan is primarily strategic, designed to offset its rivalry with India.
“There is a feeling that cooperation with Pakistan on counter-terrorism might be in China’s interests,” he told AFP.

“They’ve got economic domination over Southeast Asia. But South Asia is another matter. The big rival is India. If they can get close diplomatically to Pakistan then it can balance the power of India in the subcontinent,” he said.

Neither can China present an alternative to the US alliance.

But Kayani described China as “very important” to regional stability, perhaps best seen against a backdrop of Pakistan’s own rivalry with India. “It’s not a zero-sum game. You further strengthen your relations with China, then you increase your importance. You use this as a leverage to improve your relationship with the US,” said Masood.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 27 Nov 2011 12:30

Shiv Ji: Namahskar, I think you over estimate the the numbers of the socio-economic classes. The largest of these is the indigent poor lowest class, and probably about 2/3rd or 65 % of the population. Above them are the lower middle class, amounting to about 15 % . Above them is the middle class of about 10-12%. There is an upper middle class of about 5-8%, and above all of these sits the uber ritch having no more than 2-3 %. Typically, the poor have trouble feeding themselves and their children, and the lucky among this class have a bicycle. They would also own a radio, and/or an old TV, and literacy among these is the lowest of all groups. But because this class seldom pays rent, living in all variety of tempory shelers they have a higher percent of disposable income compared to lower middle class people. Religeous fundamentalism is the highest in the lowest group. We can surmise how the rest 1/3rd of the paki's population exists.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 27 Nov 2011 12:35

Here, a new Faisal Shahzad has been born in the last 24 hours. Perhaps one among many.

This dude claims to be US based, but I doubt it. If he is indeed based in the US, then he would be getting a visit from the FBI very soon, perhaps within hours.

What I don't doubt is that there is a huge bunch, perhaps in the thousands, of such latent jihadis, bubbling just beneath the surface of US suburbia.

Pardon me for quoting from the deaf&dumb -- I know that that is not allowed. But quoting this here will help the FBI nail this future bomber:

Sallam, this attack has caused me to throw all caution to the winds and make a video message for my fellow pdfers regarding what can be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ngX1BPxn4g

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 27 Nov 2011 12:37

The how, what and where of Nato supply trucks

There are two routes into Afghanistan from Pakistan, one across the Khyber Pass to the Afghan border town of Torkham and on to Kabul. The other goes through Pakistan’s Balochistan province to the border town of Chaman and on to the southern Afghan city, and former Taliban stronghold, of Kandahar.

Between them these two routes account for just under one third of all cargo that the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) ships into Afghanistan.

Perhaps, the US can do without the paki supply routes for atleast a few weeks or may be altogether. If so, we can expect more attacks on puki soldiers.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2011 12:53

hanumadu wrote:Perhaps, the US can do without the paki supply routes for atleast a few weeks or may be altogether. If so, we can expect more attacks on puki soldiers.

With approaching winter, the ISAF would have stocked up enough and can easily survive for a few weeks, but they may not be able to go far beyond that even though 70% of supplies now goes through the Northern Distribution Network. They may not also want their strategic reserve to deplete, especially the fuel which mostly goes through Pakistan. The fall in the volume is one reason that Pakistan has decided to double the transit rates. After mid-next year, the volume will keep falling and by mid-2013, the ISAF may not depend upon Pakistan at all for supply chain.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 14:21

Some interesting tweets by C Fair here:

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@shero1985 NOT hacked. Many Pakistanis need to realize that their deep state does some effed up shit and they should expect incredulity.

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@robertcaruso @stcolumbia Pak proliferates nukes and terrror more than Iran yet we pay big bucks for G/ALOCS YET Chabahar is impossible?

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@najia2ahmed @SamadK The difference z the US stopped in 89/90 but Pakistan continued/continues.The 'jihad' in A'stan wz a monumental f.u.c.kup. [Dots mine, rest IP Ms CFs']

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@waqas_x @KhanDanish_ @SamadK ZA Bhutto began the policy in 74.Zia continued it and deepened it as is well known.
23 hours ago

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@_soota My dogs routinely make more sense than you and other apologists for the ISI.

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@mehreenkasana @MeeraGhani You don't read most newspapers do you? Oh....newspapers are a CIA/RAW/Mossad plot too. Forgot. Hopeless.

CChristineFair Christine Fair
Rawalpindi Tours! Specializing in rafting down DaNile River since 1947. Bring a life vest, helmet and some alloo andhe and BS repellent.

CChristineFair Christine Fair
@
@mehreenkasana What validates my argument is that Pakistan has been behind nearly every major terror plot in CONUS/EUROPE/India for years.

CChristineFair Christine Fair
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@khawarmr Pak began this crap in 1947 in India and in Afghanistan from about 1960 onward. So that's about 6 decades to varying degrees?

CChristineFair Christine Fair
And the Imtiaz-e-Douche goes to @mullaNasiruddin for his tweet "@CChristineFair how is ur paki boyfriend? still there or ditchd u?"

Imtiaz-e-Douche to Mullah Nasiruddin...is Miss CF onto BENIS too?

Liked the DeNile Rawalpindi tours one too..

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 14:33

Isaf reveals coalition troops were in Mohmand

ISLAMABAD: An Isaf spokesman made a startling revelation on Saturday that the Mohmand attack by Nato-Isaf helicopters was in response to a call by “Isaf ground forces” in the area who called for help when they were attacked.

“It was an operation of the Afghan national security forces and coalition forces close to the border in eastern Kunar very early in the day in the darkness. In the situation that developed on the ground, close air support was called by the ground force and it is highly likely that this air support that was then brought forward caused the incident,” spokesman Carlston Jacob told the Geo TV anchor Sana Bucha from Kabul.

Spokesman Jacob made the disclosure while refusing to give details of the incident.

If his statement is correct it means that US/Nato ground forces were already in the area and when they were trapped or confronted they called for air support which came and killed Pakistan Army troops and officers.

He repeatedly said that he was waiting for the result of investigations and once the full picture was available he would comment.

He also declined to give a time line for concluding the investigation and said it will take its time. “We have to go through the process and have to talk with Pakistani side and find out what led to the incident,” he said.

He said he regretted the loss of life but did not offer any apologies until the probe was completed.

Khugakhel tribe complains Islamabad gave up border area
Rahimullah Yusufzai

Sunday, November 27, 2011
PESHAWAR: Elders of the Khugakhel tribe that lives in the border area in Mohmand Agency where the Nato air raid took place in the early hours on Saturday have claimed that the real international border is at least nine kilometres inside Afghanistan and not at the Salala security check-post in the Anargai Ghakhi mountain peak that was bombed and strafed by the US gunship helicopters.

Speaking on behalf of the Khugakhel Mohmand tribal elders who met him Saturday after the Nato air raid, former provincial minister Iftikhar Mohmand said the Nato raid would not have taken place at the Salala post if Pakistan had not given up its rightful claim on this piece of land inhabited by the Khugakhel tribe.

He said their tribe hadn’t given up its claim on this piece of land. “Our Khugakhel tribe is living there, and it considers itself Pakistani. We have complained to the Pakistan government in the past as well, and we are reiterating our complaint about why Islamabad gave up this territory and accepted the Durand Line border at the Anargai Ghakhi mountain peak by setting up the Salala security post there,” he argued.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 27 Nov 2011 15:01

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Nov 2011 15:34

http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/27/view-fro ... ifled.html

Experiences of a Pakistani
===================
Place : A Museum in NY USA displaying the works of Indian Painters from 1100-1900AD
(mostly muslims from the Mughal Era)

Event : Visit by a Pakistani

What a Pakistani Experienced/Felt............After the Visit to this Museum
====================================================
1. Loss of inheritance ,
2. Lamentation & Dark Despair !
3. Envy (watching indian parents proudly & patiently explaining to their USA born kids the
indian exhibits ie their past history with animation-energy & ethnic pride !
4.Sullen silence
5. Seething anger stirs within ..........
6. Realisation that their Pakistani Nation forcibly made all pakistanis forget their past & cut them
off from their non islamic roots & consciously replaced it with arabic calligraphy
7. Realisation that their "beloved" pakistani nation made pakis shun forever the beautiful images of art,
culture and heritage of their ancestors (....only because they were hindus/buddhists/non muslims)
8. Realisation that Pakistan has instilled a mad mass religiosity
9. Realisation that Pakistan has systematically produced a whole indoctrinated generation of young
pakis who have vacuumed out their legacy & filled it with "100% pure hatred-prejudice & intolerance
for everything indian/non-islamic" , These are the very people who have turned into dreaded talibans
who would take over their culture and heritage destroying at will – human or lifeless that they
consider repugnant to Islam
10. Realisation that pakistan has undergone a sea change for the worse resulting in a loss of dynamism
which is a sign of living, vibrant and progressive societies.

Pay attention to the words used by this paki . I think this will help us get more clear insights into the present day paki psyche in the age category < 40 yrs

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 27 Nov 2011 15:51

Shiv Ji: Namahskar, I think you over estimate the numbers of paki socio-economic classes. The largest of these is the indigent poor lowest class, and probably about 2/3rd or 65 % of the population. Above them are the lower middle class, amounting to about 15 % . Above them is the qmiddle class of about 10-12%. There is an upper middle class of about 5-8%, and above all of these sits the uber ritch having no more than 2-3 %. Typically, the poor have trouble feeding themselves and their children, and the lucky among this class have a bicycle. They would also own a radio, and/or an old TV, and literacy among these is the lowest of all groups. But because this class seldom pays rent, living in all variety of tempory shelers they have a higher percent of disposable income compared to lower middle class people. Religeous fundamentalism is the highest in the lowest group. We can surmise how the rest 1/3rd of the paki's population exists.

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 17:31

pakistani post converted into rubble

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 27 Nov 2011 17:49

^^ the above picture is of old suicide attack. I don't remember exactly where, but could be kohat market or derra alam khan....

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2011 18:06

I see several earthmovers there in the picture. In a country that manufactures next to nothing, how come there are so many of them and so quickly too and in a remote place ?

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 18:10

abhijitm wrote:^^ the above picture is of old suicide attack. I don't remember exactly where, but could be kohat market or derra alam khan....

True, seems to be old one from Yakahghund bombing incident http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... /?page=all
sorry for posting without confirming

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2011 19:00

parsuram wrote:The largest of these is the indigent poor lowest class, and probably about 2/3rd or 65 % of the population. Above them are the lower middle class, amounting to about 15 % . Above them is the qmiddle class of about 10-12%. There is an upper middle class of about 5-8%, and above all of these sits the uber ritch having no more than 2-3 %. Typically, the poor have trouble feeding themselves and their children, and the lucky among this class have a bicycle. They would also own a radio, and/or an old TV, and literacy among these is the lowest of all groups. But because this class seldom pays rent, living in all variety of tempory shelers they have a higher percent of disposable income compared to lower middle class people. Religeous fundamentalism is the highest in the lowest group. We can surmise how the rest 1/3rd of the paki's population exists.

Parsuramji - I have been looking for figures that indicate economic class in Pakistan. Nothing I have seen indicates that the Pakistani "middle class" are over 15% in size ~25 million. I actually have papers that showed poverty of $2 or less per day was about 73% in Pakistan. The "wealthy" are likely to be about 1-2% . There is a 10% (18 million) segment between "middle class" and "poor" who may be "seaaonal poor" and "lower middle class"

When I look at the figures I have collected over the years - I get a TV sets (total) in Pakistan to be between 3 million and 9 million 22 to 50 per thousand). Taking an average family size of 6 in Pakistan and the median figure of 6 million - it leans that 36 million Pakis (20%) have TV sets. 80% do not have TV.

From what I have read the lowest classes (80%) do not have the power to organise jihad. They only contribute sons and wombs. The actual education and propaganda comes from the middle classes who watch the TV run by the elite and army. As the poor get richer their anger at kafirs turns into financial and organizing power. So jihad and funds for jihad are driven mainly by the middle classes. The poor mainly supply the bodies/cannon fodder not funds or education.

The poor can easily be suppressed by the army and by strict news censorship news of brutality in one area will not spread out or the stories that come out will be sanitised. But this can't be done with the middle classes who have the financial clout to cause problems for the army. The army needs to keep the middle classes happy while continuing to get rich and while still getting recruits from the poorest classes.

In Pakistan the army has made an error IMO. It has got funds from the USA, while the financial power of the middle classes has been allowed to be given to "non state" jihadi groups of various names. Since they have the power to pay some tax, but they do not pay tax, most of their contributions go to jihad groups. So teh army is one center of power and the jihadis groups supported by the middle class are a second center of power.

The lowest poor classes contribute men to jihad and to the army. When it comes to India - all these me fight shoulder to shoulder. When it comes to the US's war on terror, foot soldiers for jihad find themselves facing army foot soldiers. So we have desertions from the Paki army and a loss of support for the army from parts of the lower classes as well as parts of the middle classes who are funding jihad.

It appears that the Pakistan army is in trouble. If they drop the US's war they become less powerful and get less money because the middle class money is going to the jihadis. If they fight with the US they are increasing the opposition to themselves from among Pakis. That si why they have been playing a double game where it was safer to double cross and shove a rod up the naive US's backside while having a quiet laugh with fellow Pakis. If the US figures that out the army is in big. big trouble.

I wonder if you have ever chased a rat in you house. It will run from one safe place to another. You cannot corber it and kill it unles you can stop it from running from one hiding placeto another and back to the original.

The Paki army/Pakis opposed India and ran to the US. When the US faltered (post 1965) they ran to China. They stuck with China until the US came again for the cold war and went again. They again went back to China and kept opposing India. Then the US came again after 9-11 and this time both the US and China are wary. So now the Pakis want to make peace with India.

They are untrustworthy. I hope the GoI can understand this.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 27 Nov 2011 19:10

Two young men killed in Karachi
http://www.samaa.tv/newsdetail.aspx?ID=39462&CID=1

The young men were scouts arranging security measures for the Muharram gatherings.

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Nov 2011 19:15

Religious Fundamentalism is highest & strongest in the poor & lowest class of 65% pakistani society. But this is the very Class which lends itself to be used as a TOOL

Who are the USED & specifically WHO are the USERS ?

The definitions of HUMAN TOOL are indeed interesting

A Person who is
used for other’s purpose / aim / to accomplish something
acts for someone's else benefit
has no idea what he is doing ( especially wrong & stupid things)
is easily manipulated
is characterized by low intelligence & low self esteem
is a dumb / a fool / a idiot ( a useful one for others ! )
does not think for self
a dummy who acts without thinking through
lacks the mental capacity to know / realize that he is being used
oblivious to what is happening within his own mind / outside

Do we have any strategy to deal with these Class ?

Strategy based on "People to People Approach" , Aman Ka Tamasha never involve people from this Class.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Nov 2011 19:22

http://www.dawn.com/2011/11/26/rs179bn- ... rtage.html
Will proposed Indian sale of electricity run into the same payment problems?

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 19:25

Pakistan to blame for NATO attack, says daily

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2011 19:26

dada wrote:# shiv

Models for Cultural Change in Pak
=========================
1.Top Down Strategy ( Brute Force / Jhatka Approach)
2.Grassroots Level Approach ( Aman Ki Asha ? People to People Contact ?? )
3. Champion Strategy (led by Emerging leaders aka Imran Khan ??)

What is most likely to work ?
Till india continues to bear the cost of pakistan's learning (change in its behaviour towards the world & india in particular)

Dada people like zia, and the people who developd radical Islam (ulema) over the centuries were not stupid. They were as clever, or maybe more clever than the western social engineers that BRFite Acharyaji used to speak of.

Once you change the way of thinking of an entire population, it will be decades, if not centuries before they can revert. What mullahs and Zia have done is to take a group of Muslims and reminded them of all the things that Muslims are supposed tohate, but oover the centuries had been forgotten or sidelined.

Moderate Muslims are Muslims who do not think every day about the fact that their religion can be interpreted as demanding that every non Muslim be opposed. What Zia, Bhutto and most Wahhabi mullahs do is to remind their flock every Friday, if not every day that their own God will personally drop his pants and bugger them if they do not obey his command that kafirs are to be opposed. In the case of Pakistan the specific kafirs to be opposed are Hindus.

If "reverse indoctrination" is started today and the education can reach all Pakistanis in maybe 10 years from now, in my estimate it will still be 50 years before a majority of Pakis are made moderate. That basically means that 70% of all Indians alive today will be dead before Pakis become moderate provided the reverse indoctrination is started TODAY.

So it can only be a slow process. For that slow process to start we have to make it costly for radical Islam. Islamic extremism must simply be killed. Silly arguments alike "If they are barbarians let us not be barbarians" are misplaced, naive and suicidal in the face of a doctrine that seeks to kill you for just being yourself.

The concept of secularism may be important for India and the world but it is important not to allow radical religions to hide behind the hijab of secularism. That means that if you criticise Islam for promoting murder of non Muslims those murderers should not get away with the argument "Hey you are not being secular. You are being communal". This stupidity is exactly what has hobbled Indians for decades.

So the first change to combat radical Islam is to speak out boldly and point out that you are not being communal for recognizing murder and hate. That will set the stage where radical Islam can be snuffed out. Change has to come by force. Not by talks and kindness. Radical Islam understands force and Islamists feel pain, and if they laugh at death, they must be made to laugh more by exterminating them. There is no other option.

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 19:33

‘Shamsi’ no great importance for US: ex-air commodore

KARACHI: A former Air Commodore Jamal Hussain Saturday revealed that Shamsi airbase keeps no great value for US and for its air force missions as according to him, there are not many useable items left at the base, SAMAA reports on Sunday.

“Now, Americans do not depend on it as much as they would till recent past.” He maintained.

Talking to SAMAA, he said demands to close down Shamsi airbase swelled following US’s attack on Osama compound in Abbottabad in May this year, adding that with the establishment of airbase in Jalalabad in Afghanistan, Shamsi’s importance for US’s air missions had slumped to below par.

“Shamsi airbase has never been shown placed on the operational maps of ISAF or NATO air forces,” he claimed.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 19:43

IMHO, the poor masses can be sanitised once the groups that lead are neutralised.

For the groups that lead, carrot and stick are the methods. As long as they stick with ideology, they must get stick and carrot of power sharing can be reserved for those who abandon the ideology. This will be the challenging part.

The masses are malleable. Sustained propaganda through media, social outlets, popular culture, and education syllabi the masses can be sanitised. For the masses, roti, kapada and makan will eventually take precedence over the ideology especially in the light of propaganda.

In pak, the groups that set the agenda are army, land-owning uber elites, and madrasas. These are the groups that deserve lots of lathi. Those who give up the ideology in this group can be used in pr blitz. But total rejection of the ideology is an absolute pre-condition.

Middle classes can be treated as part of masses.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 27 Nov 2011 19:51

Shah Mohammed Qureshi calls himself, Ghaznavi 2 at his speech in #Gotki

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 27 Nov 2011 20:07

menon s wrote:Shah Mohammed Qureshi calls himself, Ghaznavi 2 at his speech in #Gotki

Ghaznavi had Malik Ayaz as his slave lover? Who is Qureshi's lover?

dada · Post by **dada** » 27 Nov 2011 20:13

# shiv

Both the social processes of indoctrination & reverse indoctrination are very slow processes
they indeed take atleast 1 generation ie 25 years +. Both these processes are "educational processes" because they deal with malleable minds & indeed ideas !

the population of pakistan was ~ 65m in 1971 & today in 2011 it is ~190m
also the number of such indoctrinated people has crossed 50% ( beyond the critical mass) and it is widely believed that the process of social indoctrination is now a self-sustaining process beyond the control of even the most well intentioned government if it captures power in coming election !

do u believe that both the processes can co-exist ? . imagine the following condition.
a self sustaining indoctrination process v/s a unsustainable reverse indoctrination process ?
no pakistani ruler has managed to rule beyond 10 years (since 1940)

so let us discuss how the self sustaining indoctrination process can be killed. First make this process , unsustainable. 90% of extremists & their philospher teachers are from urban / rural areas of western pakistani punjab & NWFP we have to hit them hard here. Consider the possibility of internal restructuring of the politics of paki punjab in which that state will be split into atleast 2 or more substates including areas around bahawalpur, seraikistan etc.