LCA News and Discussions

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 02 Dec 2011 10:44

Look like 3 flights a day trend is continuing..

LCA-Tejas has completed 1753 Test Flights successfully. (01-Dec-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-323,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-51)

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Dec 2011 10:49

PV3, LSP4 AND LSP5 have one flight each. I thought the last two were in Goa?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Dec 2011 10:53

Dont aircrafts fly in goa?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Dec 2011 10:58

krishnan wrote:Dont aircrafts fly in goa?

Just now, an LCA roaring over BLR. I would love to see one flying at full thrust with afterburner on.

@Krishnan Three LCAs had gone to Goa for a weapons test and then are supposedly going to Leh for some more, as posted here.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Dec 2011 10:59

Speaking of Goa, any news of R-73 missile tests?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Dec 2011 18:00

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 21420.html

He said LRDE has also taken up development of Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, to be fitted on the proposed Light Combat Aircraft-MK II. This radar is expected to be flight-worthy and "proven in all aspects" in two-three years, Varadarajan added. Around 600 radar experts from India and abroad are participating in the symposium.

Another news about LCA

ndia's first Naval fighter to take to skies

India's first carrier-borne naval fighter aircraft "LCA Tejas (Navy)" will take to the skies for its maiden flight this month, a top defence official said today, adding that it will form the air element of the Indian Navy.

"LCA Tejas (Navy) will be flown in the month of December. I think by the end of this month, it should fly", V K Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

DRDO officials said the aircraft is currently going through a phase of refinements based on feedback and observations during the September EGR (Engine Ground Run) of LCA Tejas (Navy) prototype NP1, followed by a series of final integration checks and taxi trials before the first flight.

They said the aircraft will be operating with a wide variety of operational weapons and equipments like the beyond visual range missiles, anti-ship missiles, conventional bombs, air defence guns and drop tanks.

Equipped with state-of-the art technologies and punch, the aircraft is designed to operate from the future Indigenous aircraft carriers the Navy plans to acquire, they said.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Dec 2011 18:13

The problem is with LCA and recently with NP-1 and LSP-7 we have been promised many times they will take to the skies but never have. Regarding AESA on LCA MK.2, lets wait and see if this fructifies cause so far even with the slotted array radar they have not launched r-73 in a guided mode against a target or the derby.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Dec 2011 20:48

concurrent engineering and development of modules is the way to go. LCA AESA development need no wait till FoC. depending on the design strategy, one could make a plug and play of modules such that it helps in future upgrades easy.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 20:57

An Indian AESA in two-three years? Well he probably forgot to put a zero behind the 2 and 3

Dont get me wrong I would be the first to jump in joy and applaud if this comes true. But with the amount of bad news that keeps coming out about delays regarding the LCA - it has turned me into a pessimist

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 20:58

krishnan wrote:Dont aircrafts fly in goa?

Naah they are sitting on the beach with a bottle of cashew feni oogling the chicks. Way to go LCA

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Dec 2011 20:59

"to be fitted" is very passive. It is Indian way of saying .. take it with a public face for begin development/testing.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Dec 2011 21:22

LSP-5 took off last nov 2010 , and after a year still no LSP-7 , since LSP-6 has been skipped , it should have been much faster , i supported this lca program for a long time , but now i am losing all hope , it heading HF-24 way , soon few decades after in service they might be retired

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Dec 2011 21:27

Will wrote:An Indian AESA in two-three years? Well he probably forgot to put a zero behind the 2 and 3 Dont get me wrong I would be the first to jump in joy and applaud if this comes true. But with the amount of bad news that keeps coming out about delays regarding the LCA - it has turned me into a pessimist

I turned into a pessimist too. Till day before, when I saw it ambling along with its throaty roar, wondering what she would look and sound like with throttle on full after burn. The fact that we have come so far means we have learnt much. Now it is for our powers that be, that unlike the Marut, we continue the good work.

The LCA, as per a chaiwallah, has had more demands made on it, so as to catch up with technology which has galloped faster. Take it FWIW because that is the only thing I was told.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 21:37

rajanb wrote:
Will wrote:An Indian AESA in two-three years? Well he probably forgot to put a zero behind the 2 and 3 Dont get me wrong I would be the first to jump in joy and applaud if this comes true. But with the amount of bad news that keeps coming out about delays regarding the LCA - it has turned me into a pessimist
I turned into a pessimist too. Till day before, when I saw it ambling along with its throaty roar, wondering what she would look and sound like with throttle on full after burn. The fact that we have come so far means we have learnt much. Now it is for our powers that be, that unlike the Marut, we continue the good work.

The LCA, as per a chaiwallah, has had more demands made on it, so as to catch up with technology which has galloped faster. Take it FWIW because that is the only thing I was told.

Just beg borrow steal the technology to catch up. Thats the only hope. Cant afford to spend more decades trying to catch up. JV's/JV's wherever possible. Get the private sector involved in a big way for the simple reason they have the flexibility to hire the best brains and pay to keep them rather then be tied by govt straight jackets. I admit it takes time for a program to mature. Look at the missle program , the initial missiles took a lot of time but now days you have missiles coming out every year. But having said that we just dont have any more time with regards to the LCA. A delay of a few years more and the IAF wont touch the LCA with a barge pole. The LCA will go the Marut way.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Dec 2011 22:05

It already has surpassed Marut's numbers based on the 100 or so 414s ordered. They are in the final lap and the match is tense as never before hope they hold their nerve and deliver Mk1

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Dec 2011 22:17

The developement cycles in certain areas have indeed come down. I am being optimistic. AESA on MK-2 seems possible. Can't wait for the mk-2 to take to air with the new engine, it's aerial performance should will certainly be better than the Gripen NG, Rafale and may just touch in the regime of the EF or even better. Just have to keep the weight down.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Dec 2011 22:32

Septimus P. wrote:The developement cycles in certain areas have indeed come down. I am being optimistic. AESA on MK-2 seems possible. Can't wait for the mk-2 to take to air with the new engine, it's aerial performance should will certainly be better than the Gripen NG, Rafale and may just touch in the regime of the EF or even better. Just have to keep the weight down.

Septimus, you are an optimist

We need more like you in here to keep our spirits up

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 00:45

Will wrote:An Indian AESA in two-three years? Well he probably forgot to put a zero behind the 2 and 3 Dont get me wrong I would be the first to jump in joy and applaud if this comes true. But with the amount of bad news that keeps coming out about delays regarding the LCA - it has turned me into a pessimist

This is LRDE speaking, and this lab has a history of developing products in mission mode & delivering them. They are not afraid to take risks either and nor do they shy away from codevelopment. Bottomline, the JV method they have adopted - Tx/Rx units imported, later to be codeveloped, and combined with Indian hardware for the backend, plus software, is doable.

Suryag wrote:It already has surpassed Marut's numbers based on the 100 or so 414s ordered. They are in the final lap and the match is tense as never before hope they hold their nerve and deliver Mk1

Exactly. The humorous part is that previously the IAF did not want the LCA. They wanted it replaced or the project to disappear. Now, they want it fast. The latter is anyday preferable to the former. And they have kept adding capabilities to the original program, even to the MK1. ADA, has agreed. This indicates confidence and a new-found belief in their own abilities which bodes well for the program, not the earlier cautiousness. The AMCA program has also been cleared by the IAF based on progress with the LCA and its tech.

For the MK2, the design improvements are iterative and not radical. They can be achieved in a quick fashion and there are indications that some of the MK2 level improvements are already being worked on to incorporate into the MK1 itself, wherever possible.

Also, services personnel deputed to the production side, have said, publicly, that the program has now matured and is now poised to deliver, only that the IAF expects more and more (in order to meet its MultiRole needs), ADA/HAL have agreed and nor is it in any danger of cancellation or the like.
The ADA at the same place noted the GOI has funded the program till 2018 (till complete MK2 development) and enough engines have been ordered for at least 83 MK-2s. These are regarded as initial orders, as the IAF may order even more. The Navy has asked HAL to plan for around 60 MK-2 variants. Overall, the production numbers of the LCA are already at the ~180-200 aircraft level and likely to increase further.

This plane is no Marut. The Marut comparison is ignorant & reflective of lack of understanding of the differences between the two programs, and does not understand the weaknesses of the former which ADA has deliberately avoided. The Marut was a WIP aircraft put into production. It had significant QA issues, production quality problems, and never received the engine that would allow it to transition from a MK1 to a proper MK2. This created a negative perception of the aircraft at AHQ level even as those who flew it, and understood its potential, liked it.

In the case of the LCA, ADA has been busy trying to solve all of the IAF's issues with the aircraft with MK1 itself, making sure the aircraft is as perfect as possible, ensuring HAL sets up the adequate infrastructure to build LCA's to the correct standard, and has also initiated a product improvement with the MK2. This for the one key thing that could not be addressed with MK1, the lower thrust F404. These are actually the "lessons learnt" from the Marut. The LCA MK1s which will reach the IAF will be war worthy, properly finished, safe aircraft with reliable systems. The MK2s will make up the rest.

This aircraft program is funded to deliver till 2018, has significant support across the board and will not be stopped. The AMCA will continue from where production of the LCA winds down. The program has overcome its critical hurdles. Now its a race to weaponize ASAP, and finish off the last 10% connectivity to allow this plane to get into service asap.

Delays will occur, minor issues will pop up, but the plane will see IAF service and in significant number (a minimum of six squadrons). Given IAF needs, they will order more before production winds down.

The media will continue to attack the program, play up every minor delay as earth shattering etc. But please realize, that the program finally has achieved a momentum of its own. So those who keep worrying needlessly, please, relax.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Dec 2011 01:57

An example of the unique demands on teh LCA program has been the height adjustment to suit the heights of indian pilots. This is clearly specified in DRDO science spetrum document 2010. quoting from it below

Ergonomic evaluation of the LCA (PV-5) cockpit, developed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangaluru,was carried out for the same parameters as BPTATA for IAF pilots by using Jack human modelling and simulation software in a virtual environment. Digital model of LCA cockpit and digital human models (DHM) of different percentile Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots were interfaced in the Jack software platform for the evaluation. Three dynamic digital human models: 2.5th percentile pilot (2.5th p); 50th percentile pilot (50th p); and 97.5th percentile (97.5th p) pilot representing the shortest, average and the tallest IAF personnel were used for the compatibility assessment. The analysis was carried out by placing the pilot models in the navigating posture on the seat in relation to the Design Eye Point (DEP) of the cockpit.

For efficient navigation of LCA, pilots need to scan all the information coming through Head Up Display (HUD), Multifunctional Displays (MFDs) and Function Selector Panels (FSPs) under extreme time pressure domain. This rapid information processing will only be possible only when there is least demand of physical workload. To minimise physical workload, requirement of anthropometric best-fit is of utmost importance. Ergonomic evaluation of the cockpit design and layout of various components within the cockpit was performed to verify whether the existing design layout is ergonomically suitable for the targeted users. Results of the analysis indicate that the present cockpit design is ideally suitable for the taller IAF pilot population. Based on our recommendation, recent LSP5 model of LCA Tejas incorporates all the modern design features for optimal man machine interface for a large percentile of IAF pilots population, which has improved design of the cockpit.

This is the kind of customisation that has gone in, imagine the increase in the capabilities of the pilots when the cockpit is designed for their heights instead of for some aam Sergei/Joe's (Russian/Western) heights. PS also mentioned about tens of work-items related to maintenance/user friendliness that have been pointed out by NFTC and have been incrementally introduced. In fact last year same time we were all waiting for LSP5 to fly and it was getting delayed mainly due to the above ergonomic adjustments. I just hope they roll out LSP7/8 with all the goodies(radar/ergonomic cockpit/night lighting/weapons) quickly and am pretty sure IAF's ASTE will give it good recommendation and orders for more. But they have to do it fast, they have already gained huge momentum they need to sustain/accelerate it. I am also sure Derby integration might be faster now, given the experience with R-73. They might take 2-3 months for carriage trials and associated analysis on airframe, 3-4 months for dumb-firing without radar and another 3-4 months to interface with radar and fire it after cues from the radar. Based on R-73 experience the last two steps might be compressed, it is just that we need some luck and perseverance to go over the last few milestones and of course commitment from HAL

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 03 Dec 2011 05:39

Will wrote:Just beg borrow steal the technology to catch up. Thats the only hope. Cant afford to spend more decades trying to catch up. JV's/JV's wherever possible. Get the private sector involved in a big way for the simple reason they have the flexibility to hire the best brains and pay to keep them rather then be tied by govt straight jackets. I admit it takes time for a program to mature. Look at the missle program , the initial missiles took a lot of time but now days you have missiles coming out every year. But having said that we just dont have any more time with regards to the LCA. A delay of a few years more and the IAF wont touch the LCA with a barge pole. The LCA will go the Marut way.

The fact that Rafale has been kicked out of the UAE contest will certainly weigh in on IAF's decision. Eurofighter was quickly rigged for demonstration in Libya but it's shortcomings were there for everyone to see. If India decides to go with Eurofighter, I would bet that a fully capable LCA1 will see squadron service before a fully capable Eurofighter. The f-teens being kicked out of MMRCA is a blessing in disguise for LCA.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Dec 2011 06:26

Santosh wrote: The fact that Rafale has been kicked out of the UAE contest will certainly weigh in on IAF's decision. Eurofighter was quickly rigged for demonstration in Libya but it's shortcomings were there for everyone to see. If India decides to go with Eurofighter, I would bet that a fully capable LCA1 will see squadron service before a fully capable Eurofighter. The f-teens being kicked out of MMRCA is a blessing in disguise for LCA.

The UAE competition (actually hardly a competition, more a political deal) has absolutely nothing to do with India. The commercial and offset offers matter, not whether a political deal with the UAE goes kaput due to price issues.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2011 06:51

Eurofighter never rigged libyan ops. They did clearly say those were paveways, and the brimstones were fired by tornadoes. They also said, in 3-4 years time frame, they will enhance Ef's capability for the brits. /OT!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2011 07:25

suryag wrote:An example of the unique demands on teh LCA program has been the height adjustment to suit the heights of indian pilots.
<snip>
This is the kind of customisation that has gone in, imagine the increase in the capabilities of the pilots when the cockpit is designed for their heights instead of for some aam Sergei/Joe's (Russian/Western) heights.

In fact a recent article about the Marut said how the Marut cockpit airconditioning was custom built for Indian conditions and was very comfortable. As a people I think many Indians have failed to see and appreciate the fact that there are "Indian conditions" requiring Indian innovation and Indian solutions, and so many have been rejected by older generations who were besotted by the glitz and sales of ready made foreign stuff combined with "security threats" by the quick infusion of arms into shitland next door.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Dec 2011 09:26

I hope no one brings in the T90-esque funda that the pilots should be uncomfortable or they will fall asleep

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2011 09:29

will be even more imp once we start females off in combat roles...

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 03 Dec 2011 10:31

...absolutely ! The aircrafts would need rear view mirrors so that the women pilots can check their makeup...

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 03 Dec 2011 10:42

RKumar wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 21420.html

Another news about LCA

ndia's first Naval fighter to take to skies

India's first carrier-borne naval fighter aircraft "LCA Tejas (Navy)" will take to the skies for its maiden flight this month, a top defence official said today, adding that it will form the air element of the Indian Navy.

Equipped with state-of-the art technologies and punch, the aircraft is designed to operate from the future Indigenous aircraft carriers the Navy plans to acquire, they said.

I remember those days when the first few photographs of a flying KH2001 came out and most of us peed in our pants with the joy, and then we were fed photos regularly of a flying Tejas, stationary Tejas, Tejas in grey, Tejas in yellow, Tejas taking off, Tejas landing, Tejas at an airfield, Tejas at an air show, and now we get nothing.

Hopefully when the Naval version flies we will get to see some photos, and otherwise too!

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 03 Dec 2011 11:18

Vikram W wrote:...absolutely ! The aircrafts would need rear view mirrors so that the women pilots can check their makeup...

Fighter aircraft are already equipped with rear view mirrors, to see if some one is on your tail. There is not much point trying to look at your own face when it is fully covered with your helmet and face plate!

I am making a joke out of your post lest it be judged as sexist!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2011 11:34

Usability is important.. if rear view mirror helps in tandem seat to check the weapons afsar is awake, so be it! btw, there are other advanced means to improve visibility on your tail.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 03 Dec 2011 12:44

just have a rear facing high-res camera with night vision capability.

Can't that be integrated with the multi-functional display if not the helmet mounted sights itself? You could literally build algorithms to track any aircraft movement in the background to alert the pilot and take the work load off him.

what's the need for a rear view mirror except in emergency when the camera fails or gets shot out.

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 03 Dec 2011 14:08

SaiK wrote:Usability is important.. if rear view mirror helps in tandem seat to check the weapons afsar is awake, so be it! btw, there are other advanced means to improve visibility on your tail.

RWR are widely in use. Rear looking search radars have been tried. However, the computer located in the cranium sensing through eyeball Mk 2 is hard to beat for close combat situational awawareness. Since it is rather difficult to use the neck muscles under high G load, a rearview mirror of good quality becomes invaluable. To do a better job by high quality cameras searching the rear hemisphere, spot a threat, identify, and device tactical action in small number of milliseconds would be a technical challenge.

saps · Post by **saps** » 03 Dec 2011 14:30

Recalling my conversation with one insider; I was told that rear view mirrors are good only for nearly nothing; they come in handy only either in spotting tail quarter / rear ward scan for threats or in some rare circumstances..
when the adversary has no visual on threat but you are lucky enough to spot him in the restricted view of rear view mirror.

Additionally; loads of issues with usability:

namely, glass quality, positioning, performance under G, narrowing FOV during high G resulting in positioning problem of the mirrors, optimal location and others.

It looks fashionable to have one but optimum usage would definitely be very very debatable..any more opinions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2011 15:25

saps wrote:
It looks fashionable to have one but optimum usage would definitely be very very debatable..any more opinions.

The problems of glass quality (an easily addressed issue) , sensing under G, narrowing of FOV are applicable to any other sensing mechanism. When it comes to cost benefit ratios, if it helps one pilot see one adversary it is worth it. Abhibhushan, a senior retired IAF commander is an insider to fighter flying and to BRF. It gets easier for me to believe that when I read it in first person from a person who has done the job.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2011 15:35

Neshant wrote:just have a rear facing high-res camera with night vision capability.

Neshant there is one important issue with looking backwards. If you have a rear view electronic display then the left/right orientation is best reversed to give a view just like you would have in a mirror. This is because if you have a rear facing camera, a threat/target on the rear right of the aircraft would appear on the left side of the display in front of the pilot. And if he banks left imagining that the object is on the left, he will actually be banking away from the object.

This problem of "paradoxical imaging" is seen by surgeons who do keyhole surgery. You can experience the same effect by trying to use a wireless mouse turned 180 degrees with its buttons towards yourself and you will die trying to make the mouse cursor do anything useful.

A rear view mirror used along with NVGs would probably be just as effective. lighter and need no power and emit no light

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Dec 2011 15:43

Honestly if it was so easy and effective why wouldnt have they already implemented it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2011 06:52

it would not be difficult (given scope) to install a rear/side[EWNS] facing OLS as well .
--

from the n-LCA link, regarding kaveri for mk2:

“Price negotiations with Snecma are in progress. They are not yet completed. It may take a couple of months,” he said.

wondering after all the price negotiations for M2K upgrades, we still felt French price is expensive. There is a similar report on french price on scorpenes. Is there any reason not to accept french standards? or can we prove that we are successful negotiators?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Dec 2011 13:20

SaiK wrote:it would not be difficult (given scope) to install a rear/side[EWNS] facing OLS as well .
--

from the n-LCA link, regarding kaveri for mk2:
“Price negotiations with Snecma are in progress. They are not yet completed. It may take a couple of months,” he said.
wondering after all the price negotiations for M2K upgrades, we still felt French price is expensive. There is a similar report on french price on scorpenes. Is there any reason not to accept french standards? or can we prove that we are successful negotiators?

Even if expensive, it comes with no strings attached. Even Russians have used snecma for their passenger plane.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 05 Dec 2011 21:39

Flight test numbers update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1755 Test Flights successfully. (02-Dec-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-325,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-51)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1753 Test Flights successfully. (01-Dec-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-323,LSP1-67,LSP2-196,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-43,LSP5-51)

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 06 Dec 2011 10:53

RKumar wrote:He said LRDE has also taken up development of Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, to be fitted on the proposed Light Combat Aircraft-MK II. This radar is expected to be flight-worthy and "proven in all aspects" in two-three years, Varadarajan added. Around 600 radar experts from India and abroad are participating in the symposium.

Was LRDE not asking for a development partner in Feb 2010? This involved help in lot of critical areas of developing an AESA.

So how come in less than two years they claim to have a radar ready ? is it already there or will be ready when Mk2 starts flying ? I am assuming here that testing a radar "in all aspects" would itself take 2-3 years

vic · Post by **vic** » 06 Dec 2011 11:35

LRDE might have done lot of work already. For instance, AEW Radar work was started in 1996 though it has hit public knowledge only recently