Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 02 Dec 2011 14:16

Hello everyone

This is my first post on BR. I am thrilled to join BR as I have been lurking around for many years. Vande Mataram!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2011 05:13

just for fun:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/modern_ ... veness.htm

Modern fighter gun effectiveness

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2011 22:25

cont. from viewtopic.php?p=1206059#p1206059

first of all, wikipedia is not a reliable source. the max speed of missiles in the s-*00 systems is around 6 mach. let me tell you this, by current tech, a SAM with speed 12 mach, let alone 21 won't be able to hit any maneuvering target for now and quite a few years into the future.

>> what is the best a Indian aircraft can do... ???

let me ask a question in return. what is the best *any* aircraft can do ? does this mean all fighters are done for henceforth ? why are the stupid russians still developing the PAKFA ?

it seems to me you are not thinking the scenario in which a SAM targets an aircraft. it's not a race in which the one with the highest speed wins. a SAM has to cover a significant distance during which the target aircraft will continuously try to break its lock and confuse its guidance. even if it is able to reach the kill box, large SAMs can be shaken off by sudden maneuvering by the pilots.

like I said, look up how successful the SA-2 and family was over vietnam. its max speed was 4-4.5 mach and the target aircraft were mostly subsonic.
speed isn't all there is to a SAM. the S-300 is feared not because of its speed but because of its guidance system and range.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Dec 2011 07:50

^ to add to what Rahul has just mentioned, let us not forget that there is constant work being done in figuring effective ways for a/c to surpass such SAMs:

1) Stand off Cruise missiles, currently ranging from 300-500km supersonic and subsonic variations, including the use of stealth shaping, and nap of the earth flight (all of which contributes to considerable reduction effective engagement distances for the SAM radars). Here you can have a combination attack from a Brahmos or Scalp, both of which will soon find active duty in the IAF. Then there are hypersonic variants being developed, which will only make it more difficult for interception. All from stand off distances, where the SAM cannot effectively reach.

2) All aspect stealth a/c such as JSF/Pakfa/F-22, which can probly get v.close to the SAM site before being detected.

3) EW and support a/c - Prowler/Growler variants and similar flanker counterparts.

4) Even low flying a/c such as Jags, could make v.serious threats to S-300s. Consider that S-300 coverage in tight spaces and low level is reduced by a good 40-50%. Enough for a Jag to get close enough, pop up momentarily, let loose Harpoons and exit. A MiG-29SMT might do something similar with the Kh series anti radiation missile.

NOt to play down the threat or anything, but there are options.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Dec 2011 08:04

^^the above

The original question

chandanus wrote:Ajit ...forget the scenario in question ....plain and simple ...i repeat again.. if a S-300 missile locks onto a IAF aircraft ..what are the chances of the machines survival ???

My take:
If any missile locks on to any aircraft the chances of the aircraft's survival depend on
1. Distance from missile to aircraft
2. Relative speed of aircraft and missile and the direction the aircraft is heading
3. Ability of the aircraft to break the lock by ECM or maneuver
4. Accuracy of the missile itself. No single missile can guarantee a 100% hit
5. Lethality of warhead
6. The chance that the aircraft may sustain no damage or non lethal damage

As per Wiki/Googal the S-300 has a semi active radar guidance, which means that the missile is able to pick up radar reflections from the target, but the radar beam itself is from some other emitter. No missile manufacturer will say exactly how well his algorithms work or exactly how capable his radar and missile systems are. If India did deploy a few of these as was reported on BR then we will have some idea of its weaknesses.

Having said that there are other variables that come into play
1. Aircraft will be sent on missions that ensure that they bypass known radar locations and fly radar avoiding paths (using terrain) in their attacks
2. There are always radar "blind spots" that add to the headaches of any defender
3. Tactics such as provoking radars to be switched on, only to hit them with ARM munitions will definitely be used, and the SAM operator will have to be careful when he switches it on and having a "low probability of intercept" radar would minimize the chances of the radar being detected and knocked out.

If we assume that the S-300 is perfect, we cannot send out any attackers because we will also have to assume that the mission is suicide
If we assume that it is useless, then we will undertake risky missions.

What would typically happen is that missions are sent out using due care and the first missions will give an idea of how strong defences are, and later missions will try to compensate for the defences detected in earlier missions.

There will be losses in war. Even not fighting is not an option, because we lose everything then.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 05 Dec 2011 16:46

i saw following symbol on a black ambassador couple of days ago in pune. can anybody tell me what it means? i did not get opportinuty to check the front of that car due to traffic. apart from this symbol all the rear side had was some number preceding with upwards arrow. couldnt even figure out whether it was army or IAF car.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/symbolsn.png/
also why do army vehicles always have upwards arrow? (in college days we used to say that means "this side up"

)

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Dec 2011 17:01

^^ Regarding the arrow:

Unlike other license numbering systems, defence vehicles have a unique numbering system. The numbers are registered by the ministry of defence in New Delhi. The first (or the third) character is always an arrow pointing upwards. The next two digits (or the two preceding the arrow) signify the year in which the defence department procured the vehicle. The next is the base code, followed by the serial number. The letter ending after the serial number indicates the class of the vehicle. The arrow prevents the number from being read wrongly in case the number plate (and/or the vehicle bearing it) turns upside down.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Dec 2011 16:17

People: Look at this photograph. I can see (on enlargement), 28 tanks and armored vehicles. If you had 200 brave mujahids facing this group of vehicles who were about to attack your position, what would you do as leader of the mujahids (correction added later)? What weapons would you need? What would help?

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 07 Dec 2011 17:31

I would first move 10 tanks or so behind with their turrets facing up on an angle so that they can launch rounds on my command while being out of line of sight to prevent attacks from RPG's they would be carrying.If I had snipers I would have them take positions wait for the enemy.
I would empty 10 BMP's and regroup the men into 7 man squads,each armed with 2 MMG's and assault rifles.The empty BMP's would be following 5 tanks that would be the tip of the spear,they'll be running along the lines of the Mujahids shooting and constantly moving to prevent being attacked by RPG's.Mortar teams would be placed on the sides of the Mujahids. The remaining 13 tanks with the remaining BMP's will race around the Mujahids and try to get behind them.The tanks that are waiting would open fire first and force the Mujahids to retreat.The 5 tanks with BMP's would give chase and force them to run into my other group,which is behind them.At this point the tanks that had been acting as artillery would start to move up,for this I would use Arjuns as they more accurate while firing the infantry that had dismounted from the BMP's would also move up behind the tanks and box the Mujahids in.The group waiting for them in the back will also be positioned in a way such that the infantry is behind the tanks and the whole group is arranged like a U to kill the Mujahids.UAV's like the searcher would be monitoring the situation the whole time and giving me live data.A flight of Mi-35's would sure help to eliminate some pigs.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Dec 2011 18:34

^^My mistake. I was asking - what will you do as leader of the mujahids? Sorry for the confusion..

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 07 Dec 2011 19:02

shiv wrote:^^My mistake. I was asking - what will you do as leader of the mujahids? Sorry for the confusion..

bhago...................

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Dec 2011 20:38

Well first and foremost, ask for priority sat/UAV coverage over my sector to monitor the enemy's movement and direction, then request priority fire missions on my targets by all available arty in the given sector. Also request priority CAS from IAF birds in the area. Then I request reinforcements from my higher HQ Next, assuming i have some ATGM units with me, i would move them to the enemy's flanks and to any elevated positions i can find. And of course there would be mines in all the approaches to my position would be mined not only for security but also for warnings.
The minute they enter the effective killzone of my arty, i pound the hell out of them by arty and have the ATGM teams take out all the commander tanks in one fell swoop. If i have a few more teams than the no of commander tanks, then have them engage the BMP's. But taking out the tanks is important. Once the initial contact is made, fight for sometime then peel back to another prepared position till the reinforcements arrive.

What would help me here would be the following:
1. To have a small UAV that can loiter in an area for around 3-4 hours without attracting a lot of attention and networked across the theatre to enable real time threat assessment and priority assignment.

2. Have a system like the Avenger which can mount 2-4 ATGMs and move around fast. This would enable and assist in quick movement and can bring more firepower on bear.

Hope i am making the right moves here..

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Dec 2011 21:12

Mujahids will have UAV coverage ?

Lets assume the Mujahids are rag tag bunch of militia with only assault rifles, grenades, RPGs and a few MMGs. Let's add a few jeep like vehicles for mobility. Then what ?

In that case, I'd like to spread them around in teams of 4 to 7. Assign 10-11 such teams to spread out in front and lure the main force in to a possible killing zone. While the armour moves in to attack in front front , send rest of the bunch to attack their flanks and back (hook maneuver ?). Attack BMPs before infantry can dismount. Take down a few vehicles, disengage and move back. Try to break the cohesion of the attacking force. If they fall for it, try taking them down. Otherwise retreat and live to fight another day.

Of course, this tactic will be of limited use if the enemy force is using UAVs, (and in real life too) but that the best that I can think of in this case.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Dec 2011 21:32

Wait, are we talking about real mujahids, or is it in BR Lingo??? I assumed by mujahid, you meant army soldiers..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2011 07:08

Well technically Mujahids have always been Pakiarmy in mufti and have always had Paki army support. Air support has been less forthcoming. Paki mujahids differ from regular army in burial rights. Dead army men are sometimes accepted as dead Pakis. Dead mujahids are never accepted. But I digress.

Forget 28 tanks.

How will 200 mujahids destroy 1 tank? I mean what do you do to a tank? If a tank rushes at you at 50 kmph (or even 35 kmph for that matter) there is no time for heroics like jumping on and individually shooting all the optics or throwing a grenade in somewhere. Somewhere along the way they will need to be stopped by artillery, air power or dedicated anti-tank defences.

I am told that both sides of the Punjab-Pakjab border have "ditch cum bund" defences that ate fundamentally designed to stop tanks. The Paki side also has a network of canals that need to be forded for progress. When the shooting stopped in 1965 Indian forces were sitting just across the Ichogil canal looking at Lahore, but the Pakis had destroyed the bridges themselves.

At Asal Uttar the Pakistani armor was stopped by bogging the tanks down by breaching canals and them picking out the bogged-down tanks using a combination of Indian tanks and artillery. The Longewala story is well known, but if they had not been stopped the consequences may have been frightful. Once a tank force meets a good road they can advance 60 to 100 km provided logistics can keep up and there is zilch you can do about them unless you have anti-tank defences in sufficient numbers in place.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 08 Dec 2011 09:57

by seeing this war games...
how exactly it is simulating..? , i mean they will make 2 teams one is defending and another is attacking like this...?

koti · Post by **koti** » 08 Dec 2011 13:00

When can I become a BRFOldie?
500

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 08 Dec 2011 16:17

jimmy_moh wrote:how exactly it is simulating..? , i mean they will make 2 teams one is defending and another is attacking like this...?

Yes Red Force and Blue Force. Or Aggressor and Defender

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 08 Dec 2011 18:01

Can anybody please tell,what exactly was the 1st piece of Russian/Soviet military hardware inducted by the Indian Armed Forces.

The closest, but much distant, answer I've found searching for the past 2 hours was that India turned to Soviets following 1962, when in its expansion drive, it was unable to secure favorable agreements for Western systems.

Does it mean India had no Soviet hardware prior to 1962? even ones donated by USSR to a fledgeling democracy, as is the practice today?

Any help with the answer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Dec 2011 00:22

^^As far as big-ticket items are concerned my guess would be the PT-76 light tank ordered in 1962.

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 09 Dec 2011 03:29

shiv wrote:Well technically Mujahids have always been Pakiarmy in mufti and have always had Paki army support......Paki mujahids differ from regular army in burial rights. Dead army men are sometimes accepted as dead Pakis. Dead mujahids are never accepted.

India's state policy for unclaimed dead bodies should be to cremate in a garbage incinerator.

Sort of reduce and recycle policy, no need to dedicate real estate for pig burials.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 09 Dec 2011 10:29

I recently read a report about Indian Military Intelligence Group MI 17 which analyses spy satellite images etc.... do we have any further insight into it?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 09 Dec 2011 12:33

abhinavjo wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:how exactly it is simulating..? , i mean they will make 2 teams one is defending and another is attacking like this...?
Yes Red Force and Blue Force. Or Aggressor and Defender

Not necessarily. In former soviet Union and China, it is red that's considered the home force or defending force against the enemy blue (U.S, NATO). In our case we do consider blue as friendly. May be even from cold war times. And having a red flag on top of a tank does not mean it's representing the red force. It can just be like the red colour warning sign on a truck with wooden logs. So when you see that reg flag at the exercise, realize that it's a tank and you're in danger zone.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 09 Dec 2011 12:53

^^ thats fine .. but actually my doubt is like with out making any casualities how one can determine the victory/failure to one side..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Dec 2011 14:24

there are senior officers who act as referees.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2011 17:22

jimmy_moh wrote:^^ thats fine .. but actually my doubt is like with out making any casualities how one can determine the victory/failure to one side..

I think it works like this. It's not about casualties - the higher casualties side can win, but it is about getting the right men and equipment (and fuel and supplies) to the right place at the right time, responding to surprises and causing shock and awe on the other team.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Dec 2011 03:37

X-posting from Nukkad

Found a nice interview with Brig. RayC:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/interview-with-ray

Talks about Pakistan, US, his experiences with the IA etc.
Didn't know where else to post it.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 14 Dec 2011 13:38

what is the safe altitude/speed for ejection from the fighters during accidents....
and how the pilots are trained for succesfull ejection with out injuries....

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 16 Dec 2011 02:31

Gurulog

Can a combat aircraft be mid-air refueled at night? Is there such a thing....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Dec 2011 23:57

Jimmy - the nomenclature is Blue Land and Red Land or Blue Land and Fox Land. Blue is self. Each side is given an objective or set of objectives and troops/assets are apportioned. There are exercise refrees to evaluate and judge the conduct of each side.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 Dec 2011 00:53

Another week goes by without the new birds flying

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2011 02:18

A primer on Aircraft Design:

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/SD1VGs.html

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 20 Dec 2011 02:57

anishns wrote:Gurulog

Can a combat aircraft be mid-air refueled at night? Is there such a thing....

AC130 gun ship night refuelling

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 21 Dec 2011 18:16

is there any specific thread where Indian and foreign procurement policies are discussed; i mean technical terms, and not only the equipment details. For example, have we here discussed the procurement and offset policy for India.

- Mike.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Dec 2011 18:30

mike look in the mil forum itself, earlier pages.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 22 Dec 2011 11:46

IT is 22nd already

what is happening in bluru

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2011 09:45

suryag wrote:IT is 22nd already what is happening in bluru

Goundnut festival (kadalekayi parishe) happened a couple of weeks ago. People preparing for Sabarimalai now. Getting colder.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Dec 2011 10:31

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote:IT is 22nd already what is happening in bluru
Goundnut festival (kadalekayi parishe) happened a couple of weeks ago. People preparing for Sabarimalai now. Getting colder.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Dec 2011 12:03

shiv wrote:People: Look at this photograph. I can see (on enlargement), 28 tanks and armored vehicles. If you had 200 brave mujahids facing this group of vehicles who were about to attack your position, what would you do as leader of the mujahids (correction added later)? What weapons would you need? What would help?

I find the tanks not accompanied by sufficient infantry. Assuming 14 BMP, 14*7=91 troops and I have an advantage in manpower.

First, I'll disperse my team. Fixed position against tanks is dangerous.

Secondly, I know the lay of my land. I’ll use my mujahids during peacetime to build trenches and dugouts and position. Atleast 10 times more positions than the number usually required. I’ll make them dig like crazy and pre-stock those positions with RPG & MMG rounds.

Thirdly, I'll divide my team into herders and butchers.

Fourthly, instead of defending the border, I'll let the column come in some distance. I know the inland approaches and I know the tank column also knows inland approaches via UAV/aerial recon. I'll have my herder team mine those approaches. Herder team carries mines and MMG to protect the miners.

Fifth, I'll position butcher teams forward of the herder teams. But they’re to stay silent and dug, or the penalty is castration. No radio communication. Butcher team carries RPG and MMG, and maybe some HJ/BS missiles.

Fifthly, only when Butcher teams hear tanks blowing up in the minefield are they to engage. Butcher team is to engage ONLY at the back of tanks and NOT front or sides. Set fuel, engine and ammo on fire.

The disposition then will be as follows -

(Tanks initial position) – (Butcher team – initially silent) - (Tanks later position) – (Herder team)
(Tanks engage minefield set by Herder team)
(Butcher team engages tank's vulnerable areas from behind)

Sixthly, destroy engineering/support/recce vehicles/teams first when the tank column stops. Cut the fingers. Forearm is useless without fingers.

Seventhly, change positions. Not more than a single volley allowed per position. Pre-stocked dugouts (second point) allow my men to move lightly.

Eighthly, have my machine gunners engage any troops that come out of BMP's to engage.

If the armoured column stops to clear me, I buy time for my larger defenses like Cobra choppers and TOW armed M113 to rush in, my objective is achieved.

If the armoured column bypasses me, then it’s the other mullah’s headache and not mine.

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 23 Dec 2011 12:30

^^^ the above plan of action is plausible assuming that there is no artillery support with the Tank Group; no air support; and the UAV's and intelligence fail to identify the prepared positions.

then again to have such a control over the irregulars would almost mean that either the irregulars are army outside of uniforms, or that they have drilled like one, which would be a rare happening. If it is just rabble, then to whip them into shape, would require a long time gap prior to the defence operation. the only way to utilise the irregulars is in a 'irregular' way. Fixed area engagement, even if fixed defences are not utilised, requires superb battlefield control.

The only way to fight here would be to engage this armour within built up area. So option is to withdraw to nearest town, or in desperate situation even village.

Alternatively, if the idea is to buy time, then as an irregular force, set up dummy strong points and a ghost armour to make the enemy armour waste time and ammunition. If this positioning of ghost armour is on the flanks, then will also serve to entangle the formation. Then set up interdiction points, wherein the armour is continuously harassed. Would again require a experienced officer corps.

Another option is instead of a prepared defence with inter-lapping defence, a one shot idea might be to construct a village or fortifications, lure the armour formation, hold or try to hold at the village, and attack with suicide bombs, cars etc waves from the sides or behind if possible. Hammer and anvil. Losses would be high for the irregulars, but then they signed up for this.

- Mike.